Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[GHOSTUSER 361]

2 hours ago, hpslugga said:

You think this is just about recognizing Guaido. It's not. Again, the Americans are already revealing their intention to re-establish dominance of Venezuelan oil reserves, which is in stark contradiction to the wishes of their people who supported Chavez' move to nationalization by a factor of around 95% (and are still strongly in favor of it on principle). Venezuelans are also overwhelmingly against American intervention on this issue, and there isn't a goddamned thing that you can do or say that's going to change that reality. You think that we want to get in on this in some sort of benign, humanitarian capacity and that's a fucking joke, just like it was a fucking joke when we tried it and failed in 2002. That has fuck all to do with "recognizing Pres. Guaido," that has to do with not trusting a single syllable from anyone in the Executive Branch on these issues even if their fucking tongues were notarized, and that's even been true of Democratic administrations, so fuck off with that pissy-assed bullshit about this being about contradicting Trump.

And of those countries, how many are calling for the US to intervene? You're once again conflating two different issues, and you do it so readily because you're dishonest.

No one is opposed to that. That's just you lying again.

This isn't about "hating Trump." That's just you lying again.

This is why I say that I think your recent schtick here has been nothing more than a trollish ruse and that there's no possible way you could believe a single syllable of what you type: because I can't even say that what you say is wrong. It's actually less than wrong. At this point, you're either trolling or you've suffered a massive brain injury recently.

They'll have no such shot if Bolton, Trump, the CIA, et al get involved, and that's the course of action you support. You are lying again.

Iran was liberated once in the 20th century and the US was adamantly opposed to it. And it wasn't about "hindsight," either. Their opposition to Mossadegh was fundamentally wrong and immoral from the very outset, and they knew it. Why else do you think a priority of the CIA was to, among other things, disseminate "black propaganda" about him and his mythological "alliance" with the Tudeh Party? You're lying again.

He does. It's just that he's not doing what you think he's doing. He's a war criminal, not a humanitarian. The idea that Elliott fucking Abrams, the guy who once said that "the purpose of U.S. aid is to permit people who are fighting on our side to use more violence" in a case where the US was convicted of what the ICJ called "unlawful use of force," is some sort of bleeding-hearted humanitarian is a flat out fraud. He's Exhibit A of what it is to be a hoodlum, hooligan and a racketeer. You think he's a hero. That speaks either to your prowess at trolling or to your ignorance, and I couldn't care less which one is the case.

We've never promoted democracy in the Americas. Ever. That's just you lying again.

That entire screed you just posted is nothing more than an embarrassingly shallow and pedantic Gish Gallop and an astonishing display of what I accused you of earlier: this is pure, 100% Dunning-Kruger effect. You claim to have a "coherent world view," yet every single syllable you post is laughably wrong.

I never once mentioned Abrams as a humanitarian. Believe me, I know our motives are 95% motivated by our interests in getting rid of an antagonistic government and opening up their oil and gas reserves to us again and to have them as an economically vibrant country again with a stable currency which will make them a viable market for our products again. Yes these are our real motivations. The window dressing is support for democracy bullshit we spew is what we have always done as a matter of course. We have seen Maduro lead his country to starvation. It is safe to assume that it is a good bet that Guaidó can do better. The Venezuelan people want to no longer starve and have a functioning economy again that does not require a wheelbarrow full of bolivars to buy bread. We can help make that happen will advancing American interests. This is real world diplomacy and not hipster coffee shop/grad school bitching about US motives.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[Rimbo 25,752]

2 hours ago, Fozzz said:

Why do you believe that is what Venezuela's Constitution demands?

See the longcat reddit post above.

[Fozzz 152]

33 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

See the longcat reddit post above.

So some random Reddit poster stating, without any kind of support, that the powers of the executive branch must be transferred to Guaido? Lmao  

 

[Rimbo 25,752]

7 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

So some random Reddit poster stating, without any kind of support, that the powers of the executive branch must be transferred to Guaido? Lmao  

 

You might want to check your work before you say those things.

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

This is interesting. Nice rationale. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cnpc-refinery-pdvsa-exclusive/exclusive-petrochina-to-drop-pdvsa-as-partner-in-refinery-project-sources-idUSKCN1PP0Y4

Spoiler

SINGAPORE (Reuters) - PetroChina Co plans to drop Petroleos de Venezuela SA (PDVSA) as a partner in a planned $10 billion oil refinery and petrochemical project in southern China, said three sources familiar with the matter this week. 

The company’s decision adds to state-owned PDVSA’s woes after the United States imposed sanctions on the company on Jan. 28 to undermine the rule of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. 

However, dropping the company was not a reaction to the U.S. sanctions but follows the deteriorating financial status of PDVSA over the past few years, said two of the sources, both executives with China National Petroleum Corp, the parent of PetroChina. 

The move illustrates the fading relationship between Venezuela and China, which has given $50 billion to the South American country in the form of loans-for-oil agreements. China, the world’s largest oil importer, is now the second-biggest buyer of Venezuelan crude in Asia, taking in 16.63 million tonnes, or about 332,000 barrels per day (bpd), in 2018. 

That relationship began to fray in 2015 when Venezuela requested a change in the payment terms on the debt to ease the impact of its falling crude output and declining oil prices. Instead of handing out large fresh loans, Beijing has shifted to small investments or granting extensions in the grace periods for the outstanding loans. 

The sanctions were imposed at the same time the United States and other nations have backed opposition leader Juan Guaido as legitimate ruler instead of President Nicolas Maduro. During Maduro’s rule, oil production has plunged while millions have left amid hyperinflation and as consumer goods have vanished from market shelves. 

PDVSA was originally a 40 percent equity partner in the refinery project, located the city of Jieyang in the southern province of Guangdong. PetroChina and PDVSA received environmental approval for the project in 2011. Initial plans were for the refinery to process 400,000 bpd of strictly Venezuelan crude oil. The plans have now been expanded to focus on petrochemical production including a 1.2-million-tonnes-per-year ethylene plant and a 2.6-million tpy aromatics plant. The plant is expected to be operational by late 2021, Caixin reported on Dec. 5. 

Under the revised plan, the refinery will not be restricted to Venezuelan oil but could process other so-called heavy crude grades that could come from Middle Eastern producers such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, said the third official, a PetroChina trading executive. An e-mail response from PetroChina’s public relations company Hill+Knowlton Strategies only stated “China-Venezuela Guangdong Petrochemical Co Ltd is a joint venture company approved by the state,” referring to the formal name for the company set up by Petrochina and PDVSA to develop the refinery. 

PDVSA and the Venezuelan Ministry of Petroleum did not respond to a request for comment from Reuters.

 

[Fozzz 152]

14 hours ago, Rimbo said:

You might want to check your work before you say those things.

Please tell me on what legal basis does the reddit poster rely when claiming "The powers of the executive branch must be transferred to the president of the legislative branch."  The Article of the Venezuelan Constitution that Guaidó himself relies on does not actually support Guaidó's claim.  But then again, maybe he should spend some time on fucking Reddit so he can formulate a better basis for his claim before spouting off in the NYT.

[bad_teammate 13,125]

16 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Please tell me on what legal basis does the reddit poster rely when claiming "The powers of the executive branch must be transferred to the president of the legislative branch."  The Article of the Venezuelan Constitution that Guaidó himself relies on does not actually support Guaidó's claim.  But then again, maybe he should spend some time on fucking Reddit so he can formulate a better basis for his claim before spouting off in the NYT.

well I found a 4chan post that will really cook your goose, Commie....

[Brisketexan 104,465]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

well I found a 4chan post that will really cook your goose, Commie....

I only trust political analysis from Texags.

Also, I now have to go save child sex slaves from a pizza shop.

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

20 hours ago, elfenix said:

your world view is that the US should meddle in internal iranian affairs to get rid of the mullahs when it was US meddling in internal iranian affairs that brought you the fucking mullahs to begin with.  how the fuck does that make sense?  US meddling brought you the mullahs and british meddling brought you the saudis.  that's a great fucking track record.

Technically, it's when we STOP meddling that shit goes awry.

[bad_teammate 13,125]

26 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Technically, it's when we STOP meddling that shit goes awry.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

There's just too much profit in conflict for the bad actors to resist. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[hpslugga 4,039]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Technically, it's when we STOP meddling that shit goes awry.

That’s a nice fairy tale

[Rimbo 25,752]

2 hours ago, hpslugga said:

That’s a nice fairy tale

That we cause all the problems is also a fairy tale.

For example, conspiracy theorists love to point out the CIA's involvement in the Chilean coup that ousted Allende and installed Pinochet. The CIA did get involved, but only very minimally. The coup would've happened if the USA had never been involved. Nothing would've changed. The coup in Chile happened because Allende was a far-left Communist candidate who was elected through a very temporary coalition of constantly arguing left-wing parties that dissolved soon after his election, while he made sweeping changes (in terms of nationalizing various industries) that had a very profound negative impact on Chilean elites. This story ends badly no matter how involved or uninvolved the USA gets.

And let's make absolutely zero mistake that the way Venezuela got the way they are today is expressly because the USA hasn't done a damn thing about Hugo Chavez or Maduro. Because when someone tries to demonize you in their propaganda, making yourself invisible can be a very good response to undermine that propaganda. And now the propaganda about how evil the USA is isn't selling so well there.

And let's not sit here and act like the USA is being some rogue state using facts only supported by random internet posters by recognizing Guaidó. The overwhelming majority of the countries in the Americas and Europe are also recognizing Guaidó. This isn't us secretly meddling in some business not our own based on flimsy evidence, and I'm astonished that some of y'all are believing that it is. Y'all are smarter than that. Be smarter. Be better than you're being.

Just because Trump's administration is doing it doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Rimbo

[Rimbo 25,752]

Heh. And just as I post that, I read this:

Quote

Russia, which has worked hard to discredit the idea that Western intervention can ever be benign or constructive, is reported to have sent 400 troops from a private military contractor, also spotted in Syria, Ukraine and parts of Africa, to protect either the regime or Russian assets.

And then this, which summarizes the Reddit longcat post I linked above:

Quote

If anyone has launched a coup it is [Maduro]. He was inaugurated on January 10th for a second term having stolen last year’s election. In his first term, won in 2013 in another dubious vote, he eroded democracy by silencing critical media and eviscerating the constitution. He packed the electoral commission and the supreme court with puppets and neutered the national assembly, which the opposition controls. By contrast, Mr Guaidó has a good claim to legitimacy. As head of the national assembly, he serves as acting president if the office is vacant—which, because Mr Maduro is not a legitimate occupant, it is.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/02/02/the-battle-for-venezuelas-future From today's edition of The Economist.

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Rimbo

[hpslugga 4,039]

58 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

That we cause all the problems is also a fairy tale.

For example, conspiracy theorists love to point out the CIA's involvement in the Chilean coup that ousted Allende and installed Pinochet. The CIA did get involved, but only very minimally.

The documentary and historic record says otherwise. You'd do well to do a little research on the Chilean topic rather than just lazily using the label "conspiracy theorists" as if it was some instant argument winner.

Quote

The coup would've happened if the USA had never been involved.

It would have failed without our involvement in it. Henry Kissinger was very forthright about that in internal discussions in which he declared that our first objective was to "make the economy scream." Again, there's other ample evidence to indicate this and you're engaging in purely baseless conjecture with this silly-assed comment. If you don't give me a reason to believe you, I have no reason to believe you.

Quote

The coup in Chile happened because Allende was a far-left Communist

He was an orthodox Marxist who also despised Fidel Castro. You use the big C "Communist" tag as if to infer some sort of alliance with either Cuba, Russia or both, neither of which are even remotely true. Furthermore, he was in a close race where he captured a plurality of the vote. One of the candidates was a progressivist that just didn't veer as far to the left as Allende. The other was a right winger.

So, here's what you had: In 1970, 2/3rds of the country turned out to vote for one or another shade of liberalism/progressivism/socialism/whatever the fuck label we're putting on it, 1/3rd voted for the incumbent right-wing President.

As of 2013, "According to the poll, 55% of Chileans regarded the 17 years of the dictatorship as either bad or very bad, while 9% said they were good or very good."

The record pretty much speaks for itself, but you seem to think that this was some sort of popular revolution. It wasn't. It was a coup that was dictated by Washington and executed by a handful of thugs in Santiago.

Quote

candidate who was elected through a very temporary coalition of constantly arguing left-wing parties that dissolved soon after his election, while he made sweeping changes (in terms of nationalizing various industries) that had a very profound negative impact on Chilean elites. This story ends badly no matter how involved or uninvolved the USA gets.

Again, that's a nice fairy tale.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

And I'm not sure why you thought this would help you even if half of what you said was true because we've done far worse since 1947 literally dozens of times over. The Chile escapade was a relatively minor one, even just for Henry Kissinger.

Edited February 1, 2019 by hpslugga

[Fozzz 152]

We need to save Venezuela, and unquestionably the best way to do it is by killing their people, destroying their economy, and liquidating any functioning governmental institutions that currently remain. 

If that fact isn't obvious on it's face, then all I can say is y'all are smarter than that. Be smarter. Be better than you're being.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Fozzz

[bad_teammate 13,125]

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

The CIA did get involved, but only very minimally. The coup would've happened if the USA had never been involved.

This is a hilariously dumb take to have. Even before the raft of declassified intelligence in the Clinton years that show our constant destabilization of Allende's government.

But we don't even need that, the Church Committee report is enough.

Holy mother of god

[hpslugga 4,039]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This is a hilariously dumb take to have. Even before the raft of declassified intelligence in the Clinton years that show our constant destabilization of Allende's government.

But we don't even need that, the Church Committee report is enough.

Holy mother of god

Well far beyond those reports, there are practically (if not literally) zero reports that support what we were just treated to. All of our own evidence points one way, yet we still have people proudly pounding their chest that it was the opposite. It's been almost a quarter century since Nixon died, and we still have people defending Pinochet. That's just shockingly awful.

Edited February 1, 2019 by hpslugga

[Fozzz 152]

As conspiracy theorists love to point out...Rimbo is clearly one of the worst posters on this board.  Rocko-tier poster. 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Anyone who disagrees with the leftists on this board is a liar, stupid, etc. it’s why there is such great discussion going on here and why the politics board is viewed with disgust by everyone else on surly

[Hank Scorpio 17,712]

 

[tazhorn 139]

4 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Anyone who disagrees with the leftists on this board is a liar, stupid, etc. it’s why there is such great discussion going on here and why the politics board is viewed with disgust by everyone else on surly

This times 100...God Forbid anyone has a descending opinion to the far left...

[Bookman 4,610]

Yeah we're all far left.

[UpperWestside 6,104]

On 1/31/2019 at 12:18 PM, Jhawk said:

There aren't a lot of people on this thread calling for intervention.  There are a lot more people saying that people are calling for intervention.  Most people in this thread that think Maduro has to go aren't advocating for anything with the US actively trying to topple him (boots on ground/CIA).  The US has taken the same position as many other countries have.  Maduro's clock is ticking and it is wholly his own doing.

He has to go. If you care about your fellow man and feel any way bad about millions slowly starving to death you have to want to see a stable government in place there. I said this before that we as a country have done a not so good job helping out those in need around the globe at times. We need to show that America is there for the average Venezuelan. We should not stand idly by while people suffer like this.

At the end of the day we are all humans and when the most powerful country in the history of the world is in a position to shape the policy to where starving Venezuelans can get the support of the world community you do that. You just do dammit.

My God we have to set aside stupid ass political ideologies and remember that we should embrace helping those who cannot help themselves. If you think otherwise on something as central to the human spirit as this you are honestly just an awful person. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by UpperWestside

[UpperWestside 6,104]

5 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Anyone who disagrees with the leftists on this board is a liar, stupid, etc. it’s why there is such great discussion going on here and why the politics board is viewed with disgust by everyone else on surly

I think if you look at the "leftists" you will see many of them were once conservatives. What happened in 2016 and the aftermath and continuing destruction of our democracy pushed many of them to support Democrats in the hope that they will stand up to a coward who wants to be a dictator.

I have in my life voted for both Republicans and Democrats. The actions of the actors on the stage since November 2016 has pushed me into choosing a side. I said I would never again vote for either a Democrat or Republican a few years back. I set aside that and voted for every damn Democrat I could last November and where I was at I was able to help oust one of the biggest assholes in American politics in my lifetime. I am proud of the votes I cast that day. 

The discussion has to be about our democracy and having people in our government who believe in it. The slowly dying Republican party does not believe in our ideals or the concept of our "Better Angels". They will never receive another vote from me because of the traitorous actions they have committed from the Oval Office down the last two plus years.

I know Brisket will not agree, but our country is better than this, but the Republicans have to be completely eradicated from public office. My only hope is the party that replaces them has no racist tendencies and actually cares about all citizens regardless of race or ethnic origin. Iconoclastic I know you are ml mostly ostracized on here for your views, but try and think of how things are right now and perhaps understand that we are not living up to our ideals as a nation and we are definitely not a beacon for freedom at the moment.

Edited February 2, 2019 by UpperWestside

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Anyone who disagrees with the leftists on this board is a liar, stupid, etc. it’s why there is such great discussion going on here and why the politics board is viewed with disgust by everyone else on surly

That’s not true.

You just have a narrow and myopic view because everyone thinks you’re a degenerate freak and dishonest liar who suffers from self loathing and the long term negative effects of poor choices and harmful sexual and chemical self abuse.

Don’t extrapolate our negative reactions to you on to other right wing posters.

Your politics has very little to do with why people here think you’re a liar and a disgusting person.

Your vocal misogyny, racism, penchant for violence, emotional instability, and gross disdain for humanity are why people hate you.

Blaming it on your politics is lazy snowflake behavior.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

 

That’s not true.

You just have a narrow and myopic view because everyone thinks you’re a degenerate freak and dishonest liar who suffers from self loathing and the long term negative effects of poor choices and harmful sexual and chemical self abuse.

Don’t extrapolate our negative reactions to you on to other right wing posters.

Your politics has very little to do with why people here think you’re a liar and a disgusting person.

Your vocal misogyny, racism, penchant for violence, emotional instability, and gross disdain for humanity are why people hate you.

Blaming it on your politics is lazy snowflake behavior.

 

Bullshit. Look at the illegals voting in elections thread to see texashammer get reamed and accused of being a liar, Johnny Sack shot in whenever he posts and even Anasatasis gets mocked stupidly with the “both sides” bs. The dynamic here sucks. My views might not be popular with the cabal here but I at least explain my thoughts and do not lash out others unless attacked myself. Stupid one liners that add nothing like what David Dennison should catch flak but he sits at the cool kids table here an$ gets away with it.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

 Venezuela air force general defects from Maduro government

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — A Venezuelan air force general defected from the administration of President Nicolas Maduro on Saturday and called on his compatriots to participate in protests against the socialist leader’s rule.

Gen. Francisco Yanez is the first high ranking officer to leave Maduro’s government since Jan. 23, when National Assembly President Juan Guaido declared himself the country’s legitimate leader.

In a YouTube video, Yanez said: “The transition to democracy is imminent.” He described Maduro as a dictator and referred to Guaido as his president, but refused to say whether he is still in Venezuela or has left the country.

 

https://www.apnews.com/ad2a17edc5dd4421b2d28935ee66e9b4

[NowThis 931]

Max Blumenthal is quite good 

 

[Huckleberry 32,685]

 

 

 

Bullshit. Look at the illegals voting in elections thread to see texashammer get reamed and accused of being a liar, Johnny Sack shot in whenever he posts and even Anasatasis gets mocked stupidly with the “both sides” bs. The dynamic here sucks. My views might not be popular with the cabal here but I at least explain my thoughts and do not lash out others unless attacked myself. Stupid one liners that add nothing like what David Dennison should catch flak but he sits at the cool kids table here an$ gets away with it.

 

TexasHammer is a lying idiot who can't read. Referencing that thread just destroys any credibility in this argument. Johnny Sack has become a hit-and-run poster because he can't let go of his Go Team Go loyalties even though in his heart he realizes the GOP is full of shit. In the end he's mocked because the only thing he cares about when it comes to politics is his bank account. Your Anastasis argument is irrelevant because you're claiming only right-wingers get blasted but then point out that a guy who explicitly isn't a right-winger gets blasted.

 

You are correct, though, that Dennison is a shit poster.

 

I'm a conservative and almost never get negged or blasted on here except by GOP loyalists. The truth regarding the current political climate is far from what you wish to believe.

 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

7 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Bullshit. Look at the illegals voting in elections thread to see texashammer get reamed and accused of being a liar, Johnny Sack shot in whenever he posts and even Anasatasis gets mocked stupidly with the “both sides” bs. The dynamic here sucks. My views might not be popular with the cabal here but I at least explain my thoughts and do not lash out others unless attacked myself. Stupid one liners that add nothing like what David Dennison should catch flak but he sits at the cool kids table here an$ gets away with it.

This politics board is exactly the same as Texags politics.  Just for the left.  

[Brisketexan 104,465]

This politics board is exactly the same as Texags politics.  Just for the left.  

Both sides!
Except, you know, without the worship of batshit Q theories and worshipping at the altar of lies. Other than that, though, BOTH SIDES!
Shit, I think you may owe Anastasis royalties for that.

[Chult86 335]

8 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Bullshit. Look at the illegals voting in elections thread to see texashammer get reamed and accused of being a liar, Johnny Sack shot in whenever he posts and even Anasatasis gets mocked stupidly with the “both sides” bs. The dynamic here sucks. My views might not be popular with the cabal here but I at least explain my thoughts and do not lash out others unless attacked myself. Stupid one liners that add nothing like what David Dennison should catch flak but he sits at the cool kids table here an$ gets away with it.

You literally thought it would be a good idea if Tucker Carlson ran for President. What kind of response do you expect?

[GHOSTUSER 361]

5 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

 Venezuela air force general defects from Maduro government

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — A Venezuelan air force general defected from the administration of President Nicolas Maduro on Saturday and called on his compatriots to participate in protests against the socialist leader’s rule.

Gen. Francisco Yanez is the first high ranking officer to leave Maduro’s government since Jan. 23, when National Assembly President Juan Guaido declared himself the country’s legitimate leader.

In a YouTube video, Yanez said: “The transition to democracy is imminent.” He described Maduro as a dictator and referred to Guaido as his president, but refused to say whether he is still in Venezuela or has left the country.

 

https://www.apnews.com/ad2a17edc5dd4421b2d28935ee66e9b4

Great development. We need to make clear through back channels to the Venezuelan military that they we and our allies would not go after them if they took whatever action they needed to take out Maduro and his supporters.  Basically do the opposite of what Carter and his stooge Gen. Hauser did by telling the Iranian military to stand down and not crack down on the revolutionaries. 40 years ago to the day that Khomeini came back to Iran. I would have killed him the moment he stepped off the plane. Hopefully, there is a Venezuelan patriot that can do to Maduro what I only could have wished I did to Khomeini and make him meet his end via bullet to the head. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[GHOSTUSER 361]

28 minutes ago, Chult86 said:

You literally thought it would be a good idea if Tucker Carlson ran for President. What kind of response do you expect?

That doesn’t make me a liar. You might think that’s weird but I explain my political positions 

[Rimbo 25,752]

On 2/1/2019 at 12:49 PM, bad_teammate said:

This is a hilariously dumb take to have. Even before the raft of declassified intelligence in the Clinton years that show our constant destabilization of Allende's government.

But we don't even need that, the Church Committee report is enough.

Holy mother of god

You know, except for the fact that I actually spent a full semester studying the Chilean coup in depth when I was at Texas, writing a report on this very issue, referenced and everything. I got an "A", too.

How much time have you spent researching the Chilean coup?

If you're going to criticize someone's take, make sure you actually have spent the time gathering the evidence to back it up. Otherwise, you make yourself the idiot.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Rimbo

[bad_teammate 13,125]

damn better step aside for the A student! lol fuck off

The coup that put Pinochet was neither a popular revolution nor was it uninfluenced by outside forces. Kissinger didn't complain to Nixon about not getting enough credit for it because we were uninvolved or even minimally involved.

“In the Eisenhower period, we would be heroes.”

 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Both sides!
Except, you know, without the worship of batshit Q theories and worshipping at the altar of lies. Other than that, though, BOTH SIDES!
Shit, I think you may owe Anastasis royalties for that.

You don’t think the left worships at the altars of lies?

politics in 2019 is like the scene from Road to Perdition.  When Newman says:

“This is the life we chose, the life we lead. And there is only one guarantee: none of us will see Heaven.”

The left is moving full socialist and everything is free and only the rich will pay.  Biggest lie in politics.  

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Mass protests in Venezuela today supporting President Guaidó. If Maduro wants to live, he better start looking for a country to flee to with his stolen millions. He deserves to be strung up and killed in public like Mussolini. The liberal douchebag interviewing those dudes in Congress and trying to grill them about “meddling” in Venezuela looks like an idiot. Momentum is building to topple the socialist government. Snippets from the WSJ:

Addressing the raucous crowd, Mr. Guaidó said that revenue the U.S. would funnel from Venezuelan assets to opponents of the regime would be used for humanitarian aid that would be dispatched soon from neighboring Colombia and Brazil to help the hungry and sick. The tactic is designed to pressure Venezuela’s military to permit aid across the border and defy Mr. Maduro, who claims there is no humanitarian crisis.

“They won’t steal the money of the Venezuelan people,” said Mr. Guaidó, a 35-year-old congressman chosen to represent the opposition. He said that more governments would soon support his parallel government, referring to Spain, France, Germany and other EU countries that are expected to recognize him as interim president.

Venezuela is a country whipsawed by deprivation and rampant crime, which has prompted three million people to flee. In December, 95% of those polled weren’t satisfied with the situation in the country and 85% wanted political change, according to the pollster, Datincorp. Among those who support the regime, 55% wanted change.

Many said they were thankful for the Trump administration’s support. U.S. officials have also warned that a military option, though distant, has been on the table.

Viva la revolucion!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuelans-take-to-the-streets-to-protest-maduro-11549136529?mod=hp_lead_pos5

Edited February 3, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[UpperWestside 6,104]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Both sides!
Except, you know, without the worship of batshit Q theories and worshipping at the altar of lies. Other than that, though, BOTH SIDES!
Shit, I think you may owe Anastasis royalties for that.

I actually feel some pity for the poster you replied to. He will spend his entire life only caring about how everything affects him and what it does to him monetarily. 

I honest to God feel bad for people like him because they care not about their fellow human beings and only themselves and those within their orbit. When you are able to think outside of that and you support decisions made that benefit someone besides yourself life just feels better. I can't imagine living life how that poster does. It seems like such a sad and irrelevant existence.

[Fozzz 152]

5 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Mass protests in Venezuela today supporting President Guaidó. If Maduro wants to live, he better start looking for a country to flee to with his stolen millions. He deserves to be strung up and killed in public like Mussolini. The liberal douchebag interviewing those dudes in Congress and trying to grill them about “meddling” in Venezuela looks like an idiot. Momentum is building to topple the socialist government. Snippets from the WSJ:

Addressing the raucous crowd, Mr. Guaidó said that revenue the U.S. would funnel from Venezuelan assets to opponents of the regime would be used for humanitarian aid that would be dispatched soon from neighboring Colombia and Brazil to help the hungry and sick. The tactic is designed to pressure Venezuela’s military to permit aid across the border and defy Mr. Maduro, who claims there is no humanitarian crisis.

“They won’t steal the money of the Venezuelan people,” said Mr. Guaidó, a 35-year-old congressman chosen to represent the opposition. He said that more governments would soon support his parallel government, referring to Spain, France, Germany and other EU countries that are expected to recognize him as interim president.

Venezuela is a country whipsawed by deprivation and rampant crime, which has prompted three million people to flee. In December, 95% of those polled weren’t satisfied with the situation in the country and 85% wanted political change, according to the pollster, Datincorp. Among those who support the regime, 55% wanted change.

Many said they were thankful for the Trump administration’s support. U.S. officials have also warned that a military option, though distant, has been on the table.

Viva la revolucion!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuelans-take-to-the-streets-to-protest-maduro-11549136529?mod=hp_lead_pos5

According to polling from January, the vast majority of Venezuelans do not support US interference, including the current sanctions. Funny the WSJ forgot to mention that. 

[Rimbo 25,752]

On 2/1/2019 at 12:40 PM, hpslugga said:

The documentary and historic record says otherwise. You'd do well to do a little research on the Chilean topic rather than just lazily using the label "conspiracy theorists" as if it was some instant argument winner.

 

I spent an entire semester researching the topic of the Chilean coup, as I said. I've read the documentary and historic record more than most random internet posters. Including you.

The CIA was helpful, but the coup would've happened with no American involvement whatsoever.

[Rimbo 25,752]

10 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

damn better step aside for the A student! lol fuck off

The coup that put Pinochet was neither a popular revolution nor was it uninfluenced by outside forces. Kissinger didn't complain to Nixon about not getting enough credit for it because we were uninvolved or even minimally involved.

“In the Eisenhower period, we would be heroes.”

 

Why are you claiming that it was a popular revolution? It was a coup by the elite and the military. The bourgeoisie, if you want to use that term. A very powerful minority.

[Rimbo 25,752]

On 2/1/2019 at 12:40 PM, hpslugga said:

The documentary and historic record says otherwise. You'd do well to do a little research on the Chilean topic rather than just lazily using the label "conspiracy theorists" as if it was some instant argument winner.

It would have failed without our involvement in it. Henry Kissinger was very forthright about that in internal discussions in which he declared that our first objective was to "make the economy scream." Again, there's other ample evidence to indicate this and you're engaging in purely baseless conjecture with this silly-assed comment. If you don't give me a reason to believe you, I have no reason to believe you.

He was an orthodox Marxist who also despised Fidel Castro. You use the big C "Communist" tag as if to infer some sort of alliance with either Cuba, Russia or both, neither of which are even remotely true. Furthermore, he was in a close race where he captured a plurality of the vote. One of the candidates was a progressivist that just didn't veer as far to the left as Allende. The other was a right winger.

So, here's what you had: In 1970, 2/3rds of the country turned out to vote for one or another shade of liberalism/progressivism/socialism/whatever the fuck label we're putting on it, 1/3rd voted for the incumbent right-wing President.

As of 2013, "According to the poll, 55% of Chileans regarded the 17 years of the dictatorship as either bad or very bad, while 9% said they were good or very good."

The record pretty much speaks for itself, but you seem to think that this was some sort of popular revolution. It wasn't. It was a coup that was dictated by Washington and executed by a handful of thugs in Santiago.

Again, that's a nice fairy tale.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm

And I'm not sure why you thought this would help you even if half of what you said was true because we've done far worse since 1947 literally dozens of times over. The Chile escapade was a relatively minor one, even just for Henry Kissinger.

Wow, I only responded to your first paragraph, but you've filled this post so full of inaccuracies and flat-out lies that I'm going to have to do a little more correction, lest other laymen such as yourself come across the post and feel themselves to have learned something when all they've learned is bullshit.

"Henry Kissinger was very forthright" -- Henry Kissinger had a bit of an ego and may have thought he was more influenctial than he really was. Suffice it to say, the historical record -- which I've researched in detail and you have not -- shows that his actual influence could have been entirely removed, and Pinochet still would have seized power. The CIA 'helped' in the same way my 5-year-old "helps" me clean up -- she put one toy in the basket, I put the other 37 in. She "helped." Sure, she helped, but I could've put that 38th thing in myself, and I did most of the work. The decision and the effort was made by Chilean elites -- the people who lost power and wealth when Allende took over -- and the Chilean military who backed them. And then Kissinger went to brag about all he'd done to his superiors in the same way my child goes to her Mommy and said, "I cleaned it all up, Mommy Nixon!"

Try not to visualize that image too clearly.

"You use the big C "Communist" tag as if to infer some sort of alliance" -- I call Allende a Communist because he was a member of the Chilean Communist party, one of a great many far-left parties that were active in Chile at the time, and the person that a coalition of parties backed in an attempt to gain -- very temporarily -- far-left control of the government. Which if you knew any goddamned thing at all about the Chilean coup, you would have already have known.

"you seem to think that this was some sort of popular revolution" -- I can't imagine how you gained that opinion from the word "coup," unless you are some kind of mouth-breathing dumbfuck who barely has the intellect to work a computer, much less understand the history. Which is what you are, so that explains it.

So, my guidance to this discussion is: You're being such colossal dumbfucks about this that you're making Iconoclast Texan look smart. Get your heads in gear, and go learn something before you embarrass yourselves further.

Because you are embarrassing yourselves right now.

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Rimbo

[hpslugga 4,039]

4 hours ago, Rimbo said:

Wow, I only responded to your first paragraph, but you've filled this post so full of inaccuracies and flat-out lies

Oh this should be fun.

Quote

that I'm going to have to do a little more correction, lest other laymen such as yourself come across the post and feel themselves to have learned something when all they've learned is bullshit.

You're not a professional at this. You claim you took a semester course. I fucking minored in history but only an epic moron would even think to consider me a "historian."

Quote

Henry Kissinger had a bit of an ego and may have thought he was more influenctial than he really was.

I wasn't referring to his speeches and I wasn't referring to him bragging on himself. I was referring to his explanations of what, in his disgusting mind, the US needed to do in order to assist Pinochet in toppling Allende and to insure that he'd be in charge for a while. That has nothing to do with his ego, that's a matter of the declassified records, which I doubt you've read as much as a cover page. I gave a sampling of the material and can cite literally dozens of others. You, on the other hand, are posturing and it's not convincing in the least.

Quote

Suffice it to say, the historical record -- which I've researched in detail and you have not

I've spent more time researching Chile, as well as the rest of the similar ventures that I mentioned, than you've spent remembering that one puny semester course that you seem to think gives you a level of unquestionable knowledge on the topic. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on the topic, but I know bullshit when I see it, and you're laying it on pretty thick. 

Quote

"You use the big C "Communist" tag as if to infer some sort of alliance" -- I call Allende a Communist because he was a member of the Chilean Communist party

Allende was the leader of the Unidad Popular, which was a compendium of various parties, the Communist Party included. But Allende was never a member of the Communist Party exclusively. He founded, as a matter of actual fact, the Partido Socialista de Chile and was a member of same for 40 years before his death. You say that you've reviewed the historic record, but I haven't seen any evidence of this. All I see in this tidbit of bewildering inanities is just flat-out posturing, and you think you can hide behind that with all of this bluster. 

Quote

"you seem to think that this was some sort of popular revolution" -- I can't imagine how you gained that opinion from the word "coup," 

You said he was deposed because of his political leanings and that Pinochet didn't need our help. In order for a coup in Chile to succeed without US assistance, it'd need to be a popular revolution. That didn't happen, and the Pinochet regime relied on crucial US support to both assume and maintain power in those years, which is why we gave it to them.

And I also stand by what I said: the Chile escapade was a relatively minor one in terms of just Henry Kissinger, let alone post-WWII US foreign policy. What that bastard did in the Far East was far worse.

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by hpslugga

[bad_teammate 13,125]

A-student, do you know what "neither" means?

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

11 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

I actually feel some pity for the poster you replied to. He will spend his entire life only caring about how everything affects him and what it does to him monetarily. 

I honest to God feel bad for people like him because they care not about their fellow human beings and only themselves and those within their orbit. When you are able to think outside of that and you support decisions made that benefit someone besides yourself life just feels better. I can't imagine living life how that poster does. It seems like such a sad and irrelevant existence.

What do you actually do to help the less fortunate?  How much of your time and treasure do you give?  More than the typical loudmouth liberal who's only "sacrifice" is trying to reach in someone else's pocket to give to others (with the government taking the majority off the top first)?

[David Dennison 18,608]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

What do you actually do to help the less fortunate?  How much of your time and treasure do you give?  More than the typical loudmouth liberal who's only "sacrifice" is trying to reach in someone else's pocket to give to others (with the government taking the majority off the top first)?

That's the only way it works at scale. Individual acts of kindness are great, but they come nowhere close to addressing the myriad social and economic issues faced by the state. 

[hayden_horn 11,360]

This idea that somehow America is destroying Venezuela's economy is fucking laughable. Chavez's and Maduro's lasting legacy as fascists will be both a destroyed economy and a diaspora. Anyone supporting these shitbirds supports fascism. 

[David Dennison 18,608]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

This idea that somehow America is destroying Venezuela's economy is fucking laughable. Chavez's and Maduro's lasting legacy as fascists will be both a destroyed economy and a diaspora. Anyone supporting these shitbirds supports fascism. 

Are we helping, though?