Jump to content

Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

PittsburghTiger

By PittsburghTiger
in Cloak Room

 Share

Recommended Posts

David Dennison

David Dennison 19535

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, PittsburghTiger said:

Yeah, don’t really care what you think.

it is nice to see Castro’s grandson all over Miami, and Spain flashing his fabulous wealth all over the Internet. Grandpa Fidel was worth, what, about $2,000,000,000?

Another good Commie.

Authoritarian rulers use their power to enrich themselves?

Get out! Since when?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.6k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Huckleberry
Huckleberry

Listen, @bad_teammate, this is a complicated situation and I actually do see the logic in both sides of the end result positions. But that's a lot more complicated topic I don't have time for right no

Johnny Sack
Johnny Sack

In this thread surly libs blame the US for the failures of socialism.  

EuroHorn
EuroHorn
elfenix

elfenix 34749

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Crusher said:

Tell what industries in  the USA are completely owned by the Government? Even the Military vendors are separate from the government. When Venezuela took control of Citgo and controlled that company it was the death  nail for them.

PDVSA has owned citgo in its entirety since 1990.  PDVSA has been around since 1976.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26847

Posted
Posted
Sure when you can actually get the appointment. Sometimes it can take months to see a doctor if at all. Then there’s the actual healthcare that’s received: there is a reason why the good Canadian educated doctors move to the US ($$$).  I suppose the pope flies to Canada when he needs medical attention right?  

 

I’ve demonstrated a number of times, and it’s worth repeating, that an American is about 6x as likely to go to another country for care as a Canadian is to come to the United States. The two biggest factors are cost and wait times. And this is only anecdotal, but as I write this I am 2 months into a 4 month waiting list to get my daughter into a pediatric rheumatologist to figure out just what the hell is wrong, despite the fact that she’s managing pain and slowly losing mobility, I have the best insurance money can buy, plenty of cash, and I live a half mile from the best children’s hospital with the highest concentration of specialists within 200 miles. Going to Houston would save me a week. Dallas Boston, NY, LA, Chicago. Same deal. I would happily go to Toronto if that had been an option, because I understand we would have only had to wait about two months.

 

Ever watch your middle school aged daughter go from dancing at a company level 3 hours a day to walking around like an elderly woman while you work the phones to no avail? Tell me more about wait times, chump.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26847

Posted
Posted
My wife, a surgeon, says that Canada does two things well in its health care system. One, it covers preventative medicine way more than we do, and that saves lots of costs downstream. Second, they stop care much sooner for terminal illness, which saves a TON of $. On the flip side, they do not cover catastrophic events/diagnoses. There are Canadians who have curable illness but the treatment is expensive, and they are hosed.

The biggest difference is actually the cost of administration. By most estimates they spend less than half of what we do on paperwork and other non-care costs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
workswithseed

workswithseed 2204

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Sure when you can actually get the appointment. Sometimes it can take months to see a doctor if at all. Then there’s the actual healthcare that’s received: there is a reason why the good Canadian educated doctors move to the US ($$$). 

I suppose the pope flies to Canada when he needs medical attention right?

I heard that if you actually pay you go to super hospitals, or you know regular hospitals here in America.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Enchubben

Enchubben 5600

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I’ve demonstrated a number of times, and it’s worth repeating, that an American is about 6x as likely to go to another country for care as a Canadian is to come to the United States. The two biggest factors are cost and wait times. And this is only anecdotal, but as I write this I am 2 months into a 4 month waiting list to get my daughter into a pediatric rheumatologist to figure out just what the hell is wrong, despite the fact that she’s managing pain and slowly losing mobility, I have the best insurance money can buy, plenty of cash, and I live a half mile from the best children’s hospital with the highest concentration of specialists within 200 miles. Going to Houston would save me a week. Dallas Boston, NY, LA, Chicago. Same deal. I would happily go to Toronto if that had been an option, because I understand we would have only had to wait about two months.

 

Ever watch your middle school aged daughter go from dancing at a company level 3 hours a day to walking around like an elderly woman while you work the phones to no avail? Tell me more about wait times, chump.

 

 

 

My grandmother passed away waiting on treatment in Canada for months that never came. Maybe we can agree that disease and illness is awful.

Differences aside hope your daughter gets the treatment she needs.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David Dennison

David Dennison 19535

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Hey guys this healthcare discussion is cool and everything, but right now our nation's leaders are actively trying to foment a civil war in South America that will leads to tens of thousands of dead people and an even worse political situation.

AKA, business as usual for Empire America.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:


He doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.

Well his comments following that made some sense about how gov't healthcare systems seem to operate. Basic care is good, more complex procedures take time to get arranged, bad shit and yer fucked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26847

Posted
Posted
Well his comments following that made some sense about how gov't healthcare systems seem to operate. Basic care is good, more complex procedures take time to get arranged, bad shit and yer fucked.

That’s how our system operates, too. Bad shit is bad shit the world around. Somehow everyone else in the 1st world pays a lot less and has better outcomes.

We need to stop lying to ourselves about the reality of our system, the most expensive and least cost-effective system in the world. It’s the very best at producing mountains of paperwork and giving you two more weeks of semi-conscious indignity under round the clock fluorescent lights when it’s too late to make a difference. Not the best at much else.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13514

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm looking through as many sources as I can here, and here's the best I can figure it...

- Right-wing opposition (with support from US-led international alliance) organizes a couple of trucks with humanitarian aid
- Trucks are sent via a closed bridge on the Columbia/Venezuela border
- Right-wing opposition on the Columbia side fill up and throw molotovs everywhere
- Trucks catch on fire on the Columbian side
- Venezuelan troops are said to have set the trucks on fire with tear gas canisters (which... how?)
- Video actually shows the right-wing opposition on the Columbian side setting the trucks on fire with the molotovs (which actually makes sense)

 

Edited by bad_teammate
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Sure when you can actually get the appointment. Sometimes it can take months to see a doctor if at all. Then there’s the actual healthcare that’s received: there is a reason why the good Canadian educated doctors move to the US ($$$). 

I suppose the pope flies to Canada when he needs medical attention right?

100% correct. My uncle came to Houston to get treated at the Texas Heart Institute because he would have been risk for another heart attack based on the wait time to get treated on Canada.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The horror!

Yes, the horror of having a loved one wait and possibly get worse or die waiting to get treated which doesn’t happen now if you have private health insurance will be something Republicans like me will bring up constantly to prevent single payer from ever happening.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David Dennison

David Dennison 19535

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Yes, the horror of having a loved one wait and possibly get worse or die waiting to get treated which doesn’t happen now if you have private health insurance will be something Republicans like me will bring up constantly to prevent single payer from ever happening.

And you are eventually going to lose that argument. It's just a matter of time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nivek

Nivek 17409

Posted
Posted
I care about starving people. Ethiopians in the 80s and Venezuelans now. You can now wax poetic about no one understanding what socialism really is except for you. 

Ethiopia had a financial issue not a lack of food. There is a Harvard graduate native to the country trying to lead that change as of a few years ago. Including setting up an exchange and a system of credit which was largely unheard of there. I cannot recall her name.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106889

Posted
Posted
If you care about the starvation of Venezuelans...
1) Remove the economic sanctions that worsen their financial situation
2) Work through the UN and regional allies to encourage dialogue towards free and fair elections (monitored by the UN)
 

You realize your point 2 is just Charlie Brown teacher noises, right? I mean, laughably so.

For someone who says “fuck talking to nazis, we should punch them” (I kinda like this take, by the way), your sudden love for dialogue when dealing with authoritarian jackholes is interesting.
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13514

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You realize your point 2 is just Charlie Brown teacher noises, right? I mean, laughably so.

No, it's not laughable. The UN election monitoring team does a better job of free and fair elections than our hodge podge bullshit system does. If you want laugh, look at the system that put Donald Trump in the White House and Brian Kemp in the Georgia governor's chair.

Quote

For someone who says “fuck talking to nazis, we should punch them” (I kinda like this take, by the way), your sudden love for dialogue when dealing with authoritarian jackholes is interesting.

"Maduro is a Nazi!" - Definitely not a neo-con interventionist thirsty for more brown people blood to spill on the altar of American exceptionalism

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChiTownDoc

ChiTownDoc 21345

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Yes, the horror of having a loved one wait and possibly get worse or die waiting to get treated which doesn’t happen now if you have private health insurance will be something Republicans like me will bring up constantly to prevent single payer from ever happening.

Meh.  It doesn’t happen if you have Medicare either.  Single payer is coming.  And it can work if done properly.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted

Pat Tillman's brother:

Quote

I’m not a war correspondent, and I don’t have a Ph.D. in political science. But I have seen these conflicts firsthand, and I have felt the effects. Like many in this country, I have lost family members and friends in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I don’t want anyone else to have to experience that. Unfortunately, the inertia over regime change in Venezuela bears a striking resemblance to what happened in the lead-up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003.

As one of the soldiers who illegally invaded Iraq, this scares me. I know an illegal coup/invasion when I see one. I knew it before being deployed to Iraq, but it became even more clear as we wandered around Baghdad looking for weapons of mass destruction that did not exist.

As was the case in Iraq, there are no legal or moral grounds to intervene in the affairs of Venezuela and no international laws to support such an intervention. There is nothing in the Constitution that sanctions meddling in the elections of a foreign country, and nothing in the Venezuelan constitution that legitimizes self-appointed presidents. Venezuela is not a threat. Venezuela is not firing missiles at the United States, attacking our allies or invading the U.S. with troops.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/a-call-to-halt-an-illegal-invasion-of-venezuela/

Tillmans are good people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26881

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

- Venezuelan troops are said to have set the trucks on fire with tear gas canisters (which... how?

 

If they're anything like what we use, you can definitely start a fire with tear gas canisters. Hell, you could start a fire with smoke grenades. When you pop either one, the fuse starts burning, and some of the fire shoots outward. They'd use both on us, constantly, to simulate gas attacks (horrible training technique, because you can't see the stuff that really messes you up.) A walk through the woods next to any Army base will turn up old canisters next to burnt-up pine straw.

Not to say that it had to be tear gas canisters that started the fires, but I'd definitely be pissed off if some goober started rolling canisters near machinery full of gasoline and oil.

Phun Phact: Tear Gas isn't a gas. CS grenades and canisters work by burning and suspending a powder in the air. If you stay outside of the visible cloud, you'll get a Chinese Mustard brain-burn. Go inside the cloud, you gonna have 3-foot-long boogers hanging out of your face. Personally, I'm more afraid of the colored smoke grenades-- no telling what toxic crap is burning in those.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106889

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

No, it's not laughable. The UN election monitoring team does a better job of free and fair elections than our hodge podge bullshit system does. If you want laugh, look at the system that put Donald Trump in the White House and Brian Kemp in the Georgia governor's chair.

"Maduro is a Nazi!" - Definitely not a neo-con interventionist thirsty for more brown people blood to spill on the altar of American exceptionalism

Straw man -- I didn't say that the UN election monitoring team doesn't do a good job.  The predicate is that they have to be INVITED/ALLOWED in.  That's a big one here.  Asking authoritarians to stop being all authoritarian, and hold free and fair elections under international monitoring....well, that's as fucking pointless as asking nazis not to be all nazi-ish.

THAT'S the comparison.  He's an anti-democratic authoritarian (and you've already read my take on the fact that the differences between "socialist" authoritarians and "fascist" authoritarians are not particularly important -- they each create a privileged ruling class that loots the country's wealth for themselves, they quash dissent and any effort at democratic reform, etc. etc.).  Asking anti-democratic authoritarians to PLEASE be democratic and fair, PRETTY PLEASE is laughable.  Just like asking nazis to be nice is laughable.

I remain curious why you think that punching anti-democratic tools is cool, except when you don't.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)

I wanted the humanitarian aid to get through to the starving people of Venezuela on Saturday. Unfortunately, most of it didn’t as Maduro and his thugs lit the food and medicine on fire. The silver lining is that videos of it went viral further strengthening President Guaidó and the opposition as the sole, legitimate government serving the people of their country. 

The arguments that the Fozz, bad teammate and hpslugga make against intervention are further shown to be devoid of any compassion or morality. Thankfully, the Venezuelan opposition is ready to accept international military intervention to rid themselves of the Chavista cancer. NATO bombed Yugoslavia to stop the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and achieved those objectives and had international support doing so. No one other than Iran, Cuba and Russia (fuck all of the govt’s of those countries) will oppose limited air strikes to help the opposition cause. The article mentions some lip service that a few countries like Chile have voiced some concerns about intervention. That’s just necessary lip service to assuage concerns about any imperialist motives. President Guaidó is showing incredible leadership and talent at such a young age.

 

Maduro’s Opposition Urges Military Force in Venezuela

Guaidó, Pence and regional diplomats will meet in neighboring Colombia to weigh options after government cracks down on protesters, stops international aid

By 

José de Córdoba and 

Ryan Dube 
Updated Feb. 24, 2019 6:41 p.m. ET
Demonstrators throw stones at Venezuelan National Guard members standing guard on the Venezuela-Brazil border, in Pacaraima, Brazil, on Sunday.

Demonstrators throw stones at Venezuelan National Guard members standing guard on the Venezuela-Brazil border, in Pacaraima, Brazil, on Sunday. Photo: nelson almeida/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images

CÚCUTA, Colombia—Venezuela’s opposition called for the first time on the international community to consider the use of military force against President Nicolás Maduro, escalating a standoff after a weekend showdown over humanitarian aid ended in violence. 

Proposals for increased pressure on the authoritarian leader will be made during a meeting on Monday in the Colombian capital Bogotá. Opposition leader Juan Guaidó, who is recognized as Venezuela’s rightful president by more than 50 countries, including the U.S., will participate along with U.S. Vice President Mike Pence and regional diplomats.

“We will present firm positions which are an escalation of diplomatic measures, and political measures including the use of force for blocking the humanitarian aid and generating an unprecedented violence,” said Julio Borges, a top opposition leader.

Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó, center, is escorted by Colombian Air Force Gen. Luis Carlos Cordoba, right, and Colombian Foreign Minister Carlos Holmes Trujillo during a welcome ceremony for him at the military airport in Bogota on Sunday.
Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó, center, is escorted by Colombian Air Force Gen. Luis Carlos Cordoba, right, and Colombian Foreign Minister Carlos Holmes Trujillo during a welcome ceremony for him at the military airport in Bogota on Sunday. Photo: Efrain Herrera/Colombian Presidency/Associated Press

In Washington, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo described Mr. Maduro as a “sick tyrant” and repeated that “every option is on the table,” when asked about the possible use of military force.

Jorge Rodriguez, Mr. Maduro’s communications minister, blamed violence over the weekend on the opposition and foreign adversaries in Colombia. He said the National Guard was ensuring public order and responding to aggression by government opponents.

“We reject any form of aggression against the Venezuelan territory,” Mr. Rodriguez said.

The calls to consider a military intervention followed a weekend that the opposition had considered pivotal, vowing to get aid into Venezuela and calling for the military to turn against Mr. Maduro.

On Friday, Mr. Guaidó defied a ban on leaving Venezuela to cross into Colombia, where he stopped at a fundraising concert organized by British businessman Richard Branson in Cucúta.

It is uncertain whether Mr. Guaidó will be able to return to Venezuela and what that will mean for the opposition.

On Saturday, Venezuelan security forces and paramilitary groups along the borders with Colombia and Brazil turned back efforts to get food and medicine across the frontier.

Trump Leads Allied Approach to Venezuela Crisis

Trump Leads Allied Approach to Venezuela Crisis

From the beginning of the Trump administration, critics have chided President Trump for not working more closely with allies. But right now the U.S. is working with allies in Venezuela. WSJ's Gerald F. Seib explains. Photo: Getty

Two people were killed, more than 300 were wounded—nearly all of them civilians—and two aid trucks were burned by what observers said were forces loyal to Mr. Maduro. 

Mr. Maduro’s government said the aid was poisoned and was an excuse to try to intervene in the country’s affairs.

While some members of Venezuela’s opposition have long said a U.S.-led military intervention would be the only way to dislodge Mr. Maduro’s government, this call marks the first time the opposition has formally asked its international allies to consider the step.

“The violence and the intransigence on the Venezuelan government’s side brought us a couple of steps closer to a violent outcome here,” said Phil Gunson, an analyst at International Crisis Group, a think tank aimed at peacefully resolving conflicts. “It will certainly make it more difficult for a negotiated solution to occur.”

 

Showdown at Venezuela-Colombia Border

 

Tensions flare as opponents of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro attempt to deliver aid through a heavily armed blockade.

Oscar B. Castillo for The Wall Street Journal

“Yesterday that road of reconciliation was exhausted,” said Venezuelan lawmaker Sonia Miranda, who lives in exile in Miami and was one of the leaders of the bid to get aid into Venezuela. “The military option is the one we should appeal to at the moment.”

Many frustrated Venezuelans would agree. On Saturday, Josefa Merinto, a retired grandmother, watched the smoke from a burning aid truck. “Gentlemen, the best help you can give is American intervention,” she said. “We don’t have the capacity to knock Maduro out.”

On Saturday evening, the No. 1 world-wide trending topic on Twitter was #IntervencionMilitarYa, or “#MilitaryInterventionNow.”

The U.S. has recently increased pressure on Mr. Maduro through sanctions on Venezuela’s crucial oil industry and by supporting the opposition’s offer of amnesty for military officials who help restore democracy.

“After discussions tonight with several regional leaders, it is now clear that the grave crimes committed today by the Maduro regime have opened the door to various potential multilateral actions not on the table just 24 hours ago,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R., Fla.) wrote Saturday on Twitter.

In the U.S., however, all but the most hawkish of the Trump administration are leery of being drawn into a military intervention. Canada and Latin American governments have said they won’t support armed intervention.

“Military action is not the right course at this point,” said Eric Farnsworth of the Americas Society/Council of the Americas, a Washington-based think tank. “It would be a step too far that would break up the international coalition against Maduro.”

Chile’s foreign minister said on Sunday the country wouldn’t support a military option for Venezuela. A high-ranking Peruvian official said he was adamantly opposed to such a step.

Mr. Farnsworth said a coordinated program of increased sanctions including the cancellation of visas of family members of important Maduro officials living in Europe and other countries would increase pressure.

On Sunday, the European Union denounced the violence as it called for Venezuelan security forces to show restraint and allow aid to enter. It also called for a political solution.

Tensions have grown quickly in the past five weeks over Venezuela, which is suffering Latin America’s worst recorded economic crisis and the world’s highest inflation.

Mr. Guaidó, as head of the country’s National Assembly, proclaimed himself interim president on Jan. 23 and was quickly backed by a groundswell of support from ordinary Venezuelans and most Western democracies.

The U.S.-backed opposition had hoped Mr. Guaidó’s challenge might force a split in the country’s armed forces, pushing Mr. Maduro from power and paving the way for new elections.

This past weekend’s attempt to move in humanitarian aid was another attempt to test the armed forces. More than 100 military officers defected over the weekend, Colombia’s migration office said, with some swearing allegiance to Mr. Guaidó.

Mr. Maduro has struck a defiant tone, setting the stage for a drawn-out crisis. A U.S. official involved in the aid effort said “we are barely in the first inning,” predicting the confrontation would go on for a long time. “Anybody who thinks this will take a short time is not looking at what’s in front of them.”

The officers who defected said the majority of soldiers were unhappy with the government, but were too afraid to act.

“My colleagues also want to get out, but it’s dangerous, it takes courage,” said Sgt. Carlos Eduardo Zapata, who abandoned his post at the National Guard on Sunday in plain clothes and walked an hour to the Brazilian side of the border. “People insult us, but they need to understand we are afraid. We are military. If we try to leave we risk prison and even death. They threaten our family.”

For some Venezuelans, the opposition’s failure to get the aid into the country strengthened Mr. Maduro’s grip on power.

“We are demoralized because we didn’t meet our objectives,” said Nelson Fernandez, a 41-year-old merchant based in the border city of San Cristobal. “We thought it would all be different this time. I feel we are at a dead end in Venezuela. Maduro is stronger now.”

—Maolis Castro in San Cristobal, Venezuela, 
Paulo Trevisani 
in Pacaraima, Brazil, and 
Daniela Blandon in Cucúta 
contributed to this article.

Write to José de Córdoba at jose.decordoba@wsj.com and Ryan Dube at ryan.dube@dowjones.com

Appeared in the February 25, 2019, print edition as 'Maduro’s Opposition Urges Military Force in Venezuela.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13514

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The predicate is that they have to be INVITED/ALLOWED in.  That's a big one here.  Asking authoritarians to stop being all authoritarian, and hold free and fair elections under international monitoring....well, that's as fucking pointless as asking nazis not to be all nazi-ish.

It's a far more peaceful and likely far more successful route than military intervention or kicking off a civil war with false flags.

Quote

I remain curious why you think that punching anti-democratic tools is cool, except when you don't.

"Well if non-Nazi American citizens punching neo-Nazi American citizens is cool, then why are you against foreign military invasions? GET OWNED WITH LOGIC, LIB!" is one of the dumbest counter-arguments I have ever seen.

I am against foreign intervention intended to spark violence. I would be against the same if directed from outside the US into the US, even if it was aimed at people I didn't like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106889

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's a far more peaceful and likely far more successful route than military intervention or kicking off a civil war with false flags.

"Well if non-Nazi American citizens punching neo-Nazi American citizens is cool, then why are you against foreign military invasions? GET OWNED WITH LOGIC, LIB!" is one of the dumbest counter-arguments I have ever seen.

I am against foreign intervention intended to spark violence. I would be against the same if directed from outside the US into the US, even if it was aimed at people I didn't like.

Again, straw man.  If you can cite one post by me -- even one -- where I suggest an American military invasion/action, then you can keep your post up.  Otherwise, you are fucking lying.  

And even better, you keep saying that the negotiations with despots are "likely far more successful."  Support for that conclusion?  Evidence?  ANYTHING?  You keep saying over and over and over that negotiation with despots will bear fruit, as if repeating it will make it true.....what is your basis and support for that conclusion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
 Share
Go to topic listing


Football ... Basketball ... Baseball ... Other Sports ... Futbol ... 🤫995🤫 ... Gambling ... Movies & TV ... Music ... Hobbies ... Lulz ... Food & Travel ... Daily Texan ... Business and Markets ... Cloak Room ... Help ... For Sale ... Board Discussion ... Subscribe!... Donate!... Advertise... COOKIE MONSTER!

×
×
  • Create New...