Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[FondrenRoad 4378]

10 minutes ago, Viper said:

True, but "economy getting better" with a dictator for life is better than the current situation of "starving on the street" with a dictator for life.

It always starts one way and ends the other. 

[Fozzz 152]

16 minutes ago, Viper said:

True, but "economy getting better" with a dictator for life is better than the current situation of "starving on the street" with a dictator for life.

Pinochet supporter here.

imo, fascists are much more willing to identify themselves when discussing the politics of other states than our own.  It's a quirk of these kinds of discussions.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Fozzz

[bernorange 8359]

Decent summary of events from the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/world/americas/maduro-guaido-venezuela.html

It notes at the end that Russia and Bolivia have declared support for Maduro.  I have not seen any report indicating whether China has said anything on the matter.  I know that China and Russia both have made some big investment deals with the Maduro government regarding their gold mining and oil sectors.  I would imagine that if Guaidó ends up prevailing and nullifying those deals, it's going to raise tensions.  If Guaidó prevails with help from American military intervention and then nullifies the deals, ... well, I can't imagine that it would improve trade or diplomatic relationships. 

[Fozzz 152]

Pretty funny that this guy who is painted by Western media as a modern day Stalin hasn't executed Guaido.  Why hasn't the National Guard (which supports Maduro) been called up to murder every single figure of importance in the opposition? 

If you were to follow only mainstream Western media, you would be under the impression that Maduro's government has no popular base of support, and that the protests currently ongoing there are almost entirely directed against the government.  Of course this is wrong, because as I said above and was mocked for by Brisket, the mainstream Western media is simply parroting propaganda.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/images/14246

 

[bernorange 8359]

3 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Pretty funny that this guy who is painted by Western media as a modern day Stalin hasn't executed Guaido.  ...

Maduro did hold him prisoner in the jails for a while.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, bernorange said:

Maduro did hold him prisoner in the jails for a while.

And then he was released and the officers responsible were detained and suspended.  What do you think would happen here if Nancy Pelosi announced herself as "interim President" with the backing of Russia and China (each of who were sanctioning the US in order to empower the opposition)?  Do you think there would not be any repercussions?  

[bernorange 8359]

Well, wake me when Trump creates an alternate Congress by fiat and tasks them with rewriting the Constitution. 

[InkaUtexas 25861]

33 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Decent summary of events from the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/world/americas/maduro-guaido-venezuela.html

It notes at the end that Russia and Bolivia have declared support for Maduro.  I have not seen any report indicating whether China has said anything on the matter.  I know that China and Russia both have made some big investment deals with the Maduro government regarding their gold mining and oil sectors.  I would imagine that if Guaidó ends up prevailing and nullifying those deals, it's going to raise tensions.  If Guaidó prevails with help from American military intervention and then nullifies the deals, ... well, I can't imagine that it would improve trade or diplomatic relationships. 

China says stay out. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-china/china-opposes-outside-interference-in-venezuelas-affairs-idUSKCN1PI18O

And don't forget that Venezuela owes Russia a few rubles for all the new weapon systems they acquired. 

[Brisketexan 105064]

9 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Pretty funny that this guy who is painted by Western media as a modern day Stalin hasn't executed Guaido.  Why hasn't the National Guard (which supports Maduro) been called up to murder every single figure of importance in the opposition? 

If you were to follow only mainstream Western media, you would be under the impression that Maduro's government has no popular base of support, and that the protests currently ongoing there are almost entirely directed against the government.  Of course this is wrong, because as I said above and was mocked for by Brisket, the mainstream Western media is simply parroting propaganda.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/images/14246

 

EXCELLENT straw man, well done!

If you can cite where I said that Maduro "has no popular base of support," I'm anxious to see it.

We certainly have a divided Venezuela.  We also have a current government that has, objectively, presided over a fucking FOOD crisis, built its economic model on a commodity assuming that prices would remain approximately 2X what they are today, and has done a piss-poor job managing the infrastructure to develop and produce that commodity.  And those are just the economic fuckups.  We could get into the political ones as well, what with the Constitution, the congress, and the courts, etc.

Venezuela is a fucking failure.  It's okay to admit it.  Right-wing states fail, too -- as I've posited, this is far less of an indictment of a broad (and poorly-defined) political ideology than it is yet ANOTHER exhibit in the shitty track record of strongman politics.  If your dictator is left wing, or if he's right wing, he's still a corrupt-as-shit dictator fucking shit up for the people.  You're getting drawn offsides when you argue about socialism v fascism here -- your just a useful fucking tool (and note, I say that to the folk who constantly say "Socialism sucks!  Look at Venezuela!").  It's about having a shitty strongman government.  The "ideology" is just window dressing to distract you from the corrupt structure behind the window.  It was that way when the US supported and enabled any number of right-wing strongmen because they were "anti-communist" during the cold war.  And it's that way with Chavez and Maduro.  

[Fozzz 152]

7 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Well, wake me when Trump creates an alternate Congress by fiat and tasks them with rewriting the Constitution. 

The Constituent Assembly came about when the opposition seated their members in the National Assembly in disobedience of a TSJ order when they were caught in a vote-buying scheme.  Maduro created a Constituent Assembly election to meet opposition demands but they refused to participate and even murdered candidates.  

Edited January 24, 2019 by Fozzz

[Fozzz 152]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

EXCELLENT straw man, well done!

If you can cite where I said that Maduro "has no popular base of support," I'm anxious to see it.

We certainly have a divided Venezuela.  We also have a current government that has, objectively, presided over a fucking FOOD crisis, built its economic model on a commodity assuming that prices would remain approximately 2X what they are today, and has done a piss-poor job managing the infrastructure to develop and produce that commodity.  And those are just the economic fuckups.  We could get into the political ones as well, what with the Constitution, the congress, and the courts, etc.

Venezuela is a fucking failure.  It's okay to admit it.  Right-wing states fail, too -- as I've posited, this is far less of an indictment of a broad (and poorly-defined) political ideology than it is yet ANOTHER exhibit in the shitty track record of strongman politics.  If your dictator is left wing, or if he's right wing, he's still a corrupt-as-shit dictator fucking shit up for the people.  You're getting drawn offsides when you argue about socialism v fascism here -- your just a useful fucking tool (and note, I say that to the folk who constantly say "Socialism sucks!  Look at Venezuela!").  It's about having a shitty strongman government.  The "ideology" is just window dressing to distract you from the corrupt structure behind the window.  It was that way when the US supported and enabled any number of right-wing strongmen because they were "anti-communist" during the cold war.  And it's that way with Chavez and Maduro.  

If it's a failed state, then why does it have a Human Development Index (per the UN) that is higher than many other Latin American countries?

Quote

Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela’sHDI value for 2017 is 0.761— which put the country in the high human development category—positioning it at 78 out of 189 countries and territories. Between 1990 and 2017, Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela’s HDI value increased from 0.634 to 0.761, an increase of 20.0 percent. Table A reviews Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela’s progress in each of the HDI indicators. Between 1990 and 2017, Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela’s life expectancy at birth increased by 4.9 years, mean years of schooling increased by 5.7 years and expected years of schooling increased by 3.8 years. Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela’s GNI per capita decreased by about 25.8 percent between 1990 and 2017.

Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela’s 2017 HDI of 0.761 is above the average of 0.757 for countries in the high human development group and above the average of 0.758 for countries in Latin America and the Caribbean. From Latin America and the Caribbean, countries which are close to Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of) in 2017 HDI rank and to some extent in population size are Colombia and Peru, which have HDIs ranked 90 and 89 respectively (see table B). 

Apparently Venezuela is rated both in the high human development category by the UN but is also simultaneously akin to Ukraine during the Holodomor.  Quite a paradox!

http://hdr.undp.org/sites/all/themes/hdr_theme/country-notes/VEN.pdf

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Fozzz

[Brisketexan 105064]

13 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

If it's a failed state, then why does it have a Human Development Index (per the UN) that is higher than many other Latin American countries?

Apparently Venezuela is rated both in the high human development category by the UN but is also simultaneously akin to Ukraine during the Holodomor.  Quite a paradox!

http://hdr.undp.org/sites/all/themes/hdr_theme/country-notes/VEN.pdf

 

You SURE you want to go with the HDI as 1) praise for the Chavez regime, and b) an indictment of an alternate regime?  You sure about that?  Well, okay.

On a percentage basis, the following categories were on an upward trajectory BEFORE Chavez, and generally maintained that same rate of upward trajectory: Life Expectancy at Birth, Mean Years of Schooling, and even a slightly upward trajectory of Expected Years of Schooling.

You know what went in the shitter?  Per capita income.  It was $15,150 before Chavez came to power.  It did okay for a few years - coinciding with high oil prices.  But by 2017?  It had declined by ALMOST ONE THIRD, to $10,672.  And note, these are 2017 numbers.  What do you think an annual inflation rate by the end of 2018 of ....wait for it.....80,0000%....did for that per capita income (in constant dollars)?  The UN hasn't updated their data for 2018.  But unless you're really bad at math, you can see that it ain't gonna turn out well.

But keep fucking that chicken.

[bernorange 8359]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

... What do you think an annual inflation rate by the end of 2018 of ....wait for it.....80,0000%....did for that per capita income (in constant dollars)?...

You are being unusually generous with that 80K%....

Quote

Venezuela’s annual inflation rate will surge to 1.37 million percent by the end of the year as the government fails to cover a widening budget shortfall by printing money, according to a report from the International Monetary Fund published Tuesday.

...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-09/venezuela-s-2018-inflation-to-hit-1-37-million-percent-imf-says

[InkaUtexas 25861]

And about 10% of the population has left. 3 million of a population of about 31M. 

https://www.unhcr.org/news/press/2018/11/5be4192b4/number-refugees-migrants-venezuela-reaches-3-million.html

Spoke with one of my colleagues who lives in Guayaquil. He stated the locals have had enough, there have been lynchings and a major impact on the local economy with food prices going up and wages going down. On the positive side plenty of young women who will sell you arepas and show you their tits for a few bucks. 

Colombia has the highest number of refugees and migrants from Venezuela, a total of over one million. It is followed by Peru, with over half a million, Ecuador over 220,000, Argentina 130,000, Chile over 100,000 and Brazil 85,000.

In addition to South American countries, countries in Central America and the Caribbean also recorded increasing arrivals of refugees and migrants from Venezuela. Panama, for example, is now hosting 94,000 Venezuelans.

[Fozzz 152]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You SURE you want to go with the HDI as 1) praise for the Chavez regime, and b) an indictment of an alternate regime?  You sure about that?  Well, okay.

On a percentage basis, the following categories were on an upward trajectory BEFORE Chavez, and generally maintained that same rate of upward trajectory: Life Expectancy at Birth, Mean Years of Schooling, and even a slightly upward trajectory of Expected Years of Schooling.

You know what went in the shitter?  Per capita income.  It was $15,150 before Chavez came to power.  It did okay for a few years - coinciding with high oil prices.  But by 2017?  It had declined by ALMOST ONE THIRD, to $10,672.  And note, these are 2017 numbers.  What do you think an annual inflation rate by the end of 2018 of ....wait for it.....80,0000%....did for that per capita income (in constant dollars)?  The UN hasn't updated their data for 2018.  But unless you're really bad at math, you can see that it ain't gonna turn out well.

But keep fucking that chicken.

Why does the upward trajectory of HDI markedly increase around the year 2000?  What happened at that time?  As for the issues of inflation, how much of that is attributable to the economic war being waged by large corporations within the country and from sanctions from superpowers like the US?  The principal sources of inflation are due to extraction and bill smuggling, and rate imposition.  Those things don't really get talked about because they aren't in complete alignment the Western narrative that what Venezuela must due is engage in privatization and austerity (incidentally just the things that will profit Western interests).  

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Fozzz

[Fozzz 152]

A voice of sanity.

 

 

[Brisketexan 105064]

Just now, Fozzz said:

Why does the upward trajectory of HDI markedly increase around the year 2000?  What happened at that time?  As for the issues of inflation, how much of that is attributable to the economic war being waged by large corporations within the country and from sanctions from superpowers like the US?  The principle sources of inflation are due to extraction and bill smuggling, and rate imposition.  Those things don't really get talked about because they aren't in complete alignment the Western narrative that what Venezuela must due is engage in privatization and austerity (incidentally just the things that will profit Western interests).  

 

Jesus, you are a one-note monkey, ain't ya?

I'm sure that price controls had nothing to do with it.  Foreign currency controls had nothing to do with it.  Massive required wage increase -- naah, that wouldn't have any effect on inflation.  Collapse (and remaining shitty) in prices for the commodity the entire economy and gov't is based on (oil) -- naah, that's a non-issue.  A collapse in the amount of stable, foreign reserves the gov't holds -- going down by 70% in value?  Nope, that's just not a thing.

And note, the coverage of what is ACTUALLY happening in Venezuela isn't just by "fascist Western media" -- sources that most folks would recognize as quite left-leaning in their sympathies report the same FACTS.  Because, well, they're FACTS.

Look, you love the socialist dream.  I get it.  Great, good for you.  Just realize that Venezuela -- a poster child for the folly of a populist strongman -- isn't the banner you should be waving. 

[bad_teammate 13191]

Hey guys I heard there's a country whose president lost the popular vote. Also, he's a long-running grifter, criminal, and television personality. He lies constantly and is ruining relationships with that country's traditional allies. The nation is in MASSIVE debt and the gap between the wealthy and poor has been rapidly increasing for years. They're constantly killing people in other countries for little-to-no reason. Their elections are probably rigged and fraudulent in many respects, with electoral laws and state-level practices purposefully targeting racial and ethnic minorities for disenfranchisement. The most popular news television is a direct propaganda effort allied with the president.

If you can believe it, this country's government is shut down right now because the president wants to build a giant, pointless, expensive wall.

We should probably invade it, huh? Probably go on some nation-building adventures?

LET'S DO IT! WOOO!

[bad_teammate 13191]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Look, you love the socialist dream.  I get it.  Great, good for you.  Just realize that Venezuela -- a poster child for the folly of a populist strongman -- isn't the banner you should be waving. 

Scratch a Brisket, find a Republican.

[Brisketexan 105064]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Hey guys I heard there's a country whose president lost the popular vote. Also, he's a long-running grifter, criminal, and television personality. He lies constantly and is ruining relationships with that country's traditional allies. The nation is in MASSIVE debt and the gap between the wealthy and poor has been rapidly increasing for years. They're constantly killing people in other countries for little-to-no reason. Their elections are probably rigged and fraudulent in many respects, with electoral laws and state-level practices purposefully targeting racial and ethnic minorities for disenfranchisement. The most popular news television is a direct propaganda effort allied with the president.

If you can believe it, this country's government is shut down right now because the president wants to build a giant, pointless, expensive wall.

We should probably invade it, huh? Probably go on some nation-building adventures?

LET'S DO IT! WOOO!

I'm down.  I'm already pre-positioned.  And I hear that there's schematics for building your own guillotine on the interwebs.

[Brisketexan 105064]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Scratch a Brisket, find a Republican.

You're fucking funny.  The point is that the differences between Trump and Chavez/Maduro are cosmetic.  They are the same guy.  You get caught up in the supposed "policies" of either, when it ain't about policies.  It's about stupid populist authoritarianism.  You can flavor shit with chocolate or vanilla, and you guys would sit there arguing about whether chocolate or vanilla is the best flavor, missing the point that IT'S SHIT.

[bad_teammate 13191]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

You're fucking funny.  The point is that the differences between Trump and Chavez/Maduro are cosmetic.  They are the same guy.  You get caught up in the supposed "policies" of either, when it ain't about policies.  It's about stupid populist authoritarianism.  You can flavor shit with chocolate or vanilla, and you guys would sit there arguing about whether chocolate or vanilla is the best flavor, missing the point that IT'S SHIT.

I do? Weird. When did I do that?

I'm not interested in defending or vilifying Venezuela, I am merely pointing out the abject stupidity of people in other countries thinking they are in a position to try and determine the political leadership of lesser peoples. We learn absolutely nothing from our incessant failures. History is dead.

The way to "solve" the Venezuela problem is to work with partners in the UN and the regional partners around Venezuela to pursue goals that genuinely help the people there get out of poverty and starvation and then support their self-determined government.

Guillotines are only good when they are homemade.

[Brisketexan 105064]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I do? Weird. When did I do that?

I'm not interested in defending or vilifying Venezuela, I am merely pointing out the abject stupidity of people in other countries thinking they are in a position to try and determine the political leadership of lesser peoples. We learn absolutely nothing from our incessant failures. History is dead.

The way to "solve" the Venezuela problem is to work with partners in the UN and the regional partners around Venezuela to pursue goals that genuinely help the people there get out of poverty and starvation and then support their self-determined government.

Guillotines are only good when they are homemade.

And there's the rub.  How do you deal with it when the gov't in power has pulled up the ladder behind it, preventing free and fair elections (see, e.g., imprisoning and barring numerous opposition candidates from even running)?  And when you have good data demonstrating that in the most recent election, the opposition candidate actually won?

Diplomacy is a tool.  Recognizing governments is a diplomatic tool.  I think it can and should be used, judiciously.  You'll not see me supporting dropping the 101st into Caracas to support an armed revolt.

[Fozzz 152]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Jesus, you are a one-note monkey, ain't ya?

I'm sure that price controls had nothing to do with it.  Foreign currency controls had nothing to do with it.  Massive required wage increase -- naah, that wouldn't have any effect on inflation.  Collapse (and remaining shitty) in prices for the commodity the entire economy and gov't is based on (oil) -- naah, that's a non-issue.  A collapse in the amount of stable, foreign reserves the gov't holds -- going down by 70% in value?  Nope, that's just not a thing.

And note, the coverage of what is ACTUALLY happening in Venezuela isn't just by "fascist Western media" -- sources that most folks would recognize as quite left-leaning in their sympathies report the same FACTS.  Because, well, they're FACTS.

Look, you love the socialist dream.  I get it.  Great, good for you.  Just realize that Venezuela -- a poster child for the folly of a populist strongman -- isn't the banner you should be waving. 

You think labor costs are at the root of their inflation issues? lol.  If you want to blame the government then a better critique would be the gas subsidies which make gas basically free in Venezuela, which encourages extraction smuggling where all the profits of this resource are captured by states surrounding Venezuela.  imo, this has been one of their main policy failures.

[RomaVicta 29902]

2 hours ago, bernorange said:

Decent summary of events from the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/world/americas/maduro-guaido-venezuela.html

It notes at the end that Russia and Bolivia have declared support for Maduro.  I have not seen any report indicating whether China has said anything on the matter.  I know that China and Russia both have made some big investment deals with the Maduro government regarding their gold mining and oil sectors.  I would imagine that if Guaidó ends up prevailing and nullifying those deals, it's going to raise tensions.  If Guaidó prevails with help from American military intervention and then nullifies the deals, ... well, I can't imagine that it would improve trade or diplomatic relationships. 

In the excellent book, The Three Body Problem* (a trilogy I recommend), in a not too distant future we find that the US has lost a war in Venezuela due to innovative asymmetrical warfare.

Please, no more gunboat diplomacy. Let's just train some death squads and educate our caudillo on the finer points of oppression by means of terror. Like the good old days.

*The book is about something else, the war mentioned is only a passing detail in the narrative.

Edited January 24, 2019 by RomaVicta
Clarity is hard

[Trey3216 15344]

14 hours ago, Fozzz said:

If you don’t think American capital doesn’t have real, material interests in the privatization of Venezuelan resources, I don’t know what to tell you. The forces that shape mainstream western media stand to benefit from a right wing regime coming to power in Venezuela. 

Well, Venezuela actually used to be a solid country when it had privatization of its resources.  The Venezuelans will actually be able to eat again with a regime change in their country.  I'd say they stand to benefit the most.  

[Trey3216 15344]

1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

Pretty funny that this guy who is painted by Western media as a modern day Stalin hasn't executed Guaido.  Why hasn't the National Guard (which supports Maduro) been called up to murder every single figure of importance in the opposition? 

If you were to follow only mainstream Western media, you would be under the impression that Maduro's government has no popular base of support, and that the protests currently ongoing there are almost entirely directed against the government.  Of course this is wrong, because as I said above and was mocked for by Brisket, the mainstream Western media is simply parroting propaganda.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/images/14246

 

Those people in the pictures, they're in a database in Caracas and would like be shot to death for outwardly demonizing the Maduro regime.  They're also likely being fed as a trade for their support.  The general population of Venezuela does not support Maduro in any form or fashion. 

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, Trey3216 said:

Those people in the pictures, they're in a database in Caracas and would like be shot to death for outwardly demonizing the Maduro regime.  They're also likely being fed as a trade for their support.  The general population of Venezuela does not support Maduro in any form or fashion. 

Hahahaha 

[David Dennison 18849]

2 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Those people in the pictures, they're in a database in Caracas and would like be shot to death for outwardly demonizing the Maduro regime.  They're also likely being fed as a trade for their support.  The general population of Venezuela does not support Maduro in any form or fashion. 

How do you know?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

53 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And about 10% of the population has left. 3 million of a population of about 31M. 

https://www.unhcr.org/news/press/2018/11/5be4192b4/number-refugees-migrants-venezuela-reaches-3-million.html

Spoke with one of my colleagues who lives in Guayaquil. He stated the locals have had enough, there have been lynchings and a major impact on the local economy with food prices going up and wages going down. On the positive side plenty of young women who will sell you arepas and show you their tits for a few bucks. 

Colombia has the highest number of refugees and migrants from Venezuela, a total of over one million. It is followed by Peru, with over half a million, Ecuador over 220,000, Argentina 130,000, Chile over 100,000 and Brazil 85,000.

In addition to South American countries, countries in Central America and the Caribbean also recorded increasing arrivals of refugees and migrants from Venezuela. Panama, for example, is now hosting 94,000 Venezuelans.

Not only have 10% left, that 10% are the people who can afford to leave so it makes the brain and wealth drain even worse. 

[Fozzz 152]

lmao "opposing the Venezuelan movement" Someone toss this motherfucker into a volcano, please.

 

 

[David Dennison 18849]

What makes Maduro more of an evil dictator than someone like, oh, let's say Mohammad bin Salman?

Edited January 24, 2019 by David Dennison

[Fozzz 152]

Man, there is nothing that brings together Rs and Ds more than empire.

Quote

Every major Democratic who has declared—or is expected to declare—his or her candidacy for U.S. president has been silent in the wake of Wednesday’s announcement that President Donald Trump will recognize Venezuela’s National Assembly president Juan Guaidó as the interim president.

In These Times requested comment from Democrats Kamala Harris (Calif.), Bernie Sanders (Vt.), Kirsten Gillibrand (N.Y.), Elizabeth Warren (Mass.), Sherrod Brown (Ohio) and Cory Booker (D-N.J.)—but received no response. An email sent to Beto O’Rourke, a former Representative of Texas, bounced. Not a single top 2020 presidential hopeful on the Democrat side has released a statement—or even tweeted—about the development.

http://inthesetimes.com/article/21697/democrats-president-donald-trump-coup-venezuela-juan-guaido-nicolas-maduro

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

You realize there is no winning move with Venezuela right? 

What do you suggest the United States do? 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[David Dennison 18849]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You realize there is no winning move with Venezuela right? 

What do you suggest the United States do? 

"The only winning move is not to play."

 - W.O.P.R.

[hayden_horn 11362]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we have openly supportive Chavistas on the surl. 

JFC

[bad_teammate 13191]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And there's the rub.  How do you deal with it when the gov't in power has pulled up the ladder behind it, preventing free and fair elections (see, e.g., imprisoning and barring numerous opposition candidates from even running)?  And when you have good data demonstrating that in the most recent election, the opposition candidate actually won?

Provide international aid to the people who are suffering. If people are starving, send food. If people are sick, send medicine. Try to bring that nation's government into the larger global collective effort and lead by example over time.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Or invade and make Venezuela a state.

(not serious)

[Fozzz 152]

Hugo, isn’t it odd that Trump, being a Russian asset, is trying to overthrow an ally of the Russian government?  Pretty weird. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

3 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Hugo, isn’t it odd that Trump, being a Russian asset, is trying to overthrow an ally of the Russian government?  Pretty weird. 

You’re mistaken to think Russia has allies. 

Russia’s only ally is higher market prices for oil and gas.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Fozzz 152]

Hmm, his buddy Putin doesn't seem too happy about this.

Quote

"We warn everyone, not just the US, but some others that can entertain these ideas from this type of action," Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told CNN's Frederik Pleitgen in an exclusive interview Thursday.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/24/americas/russia-turkey-china-support-nicolas-maduro-venezuela-intl/index.html

[Jhawk 1075]

18 hours ago, Fozzz said:

If you don’t think American capital doesn’t have real, material interests in the privatization of Venezuelan resources, I don’t know what to tell you. The forces that shape mainstream western media stand to benefit from a right wing regime coming to power in Venezuela. 

I guess i'm confused on what the Fozz wants here.  The US has done nothing that other countries haven't already done.  We don't have a military presence there and I doubt we put one there.  Venezuela is in terrible shape and isn't a free enough economy for the citizens to grin and bear it any longer.  It isn't US citizens or assets in the streets.  The US isn't starving.  US citizens aren't being killed.  That is all venezuelans. The US voicing support for fair elections and an economy that can empower citizens to enrich their own lives is a good thing, ESPECIALLY if we stay the fuck out of it from a people standpoint.  

Are you suggesting that the Chavez/Maduro regimes have done right by the population at large? 

7 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

The problem is that Guaido talks a good game about free elections, but if he succeeds, it will probably work out like the rest of these things do.  

It starts with "Now is not the time for elections. We have to first rebuild our governing structure."

Then "The economy is getting better.  Having an election now will only disrupt that."

Then "Everyone loves me.  Let's have a sham election."

And finally "Fuck it.  No more elections. I'm dictator for life bitches."

This is also a good point.  But what is the alternative?  Sitting around hoping Maduro won't be corrupt?  Hoping Maduro will get bored and step down and install a democracy?  Everyone knows that isn't going to happen and more people will die.  My thought is that at some point every person has nothing to lose.  Once you have nothing to lose you might as well stand out against your oppressor.  Apparently enough citizens have reached the point where they have nothing to lose and what we hope would be a citizen led coup is immenent.  Then those citizens have to look at Guaido and say "we killed maduro, don't take this opportunity for granted or we'll kill you too."

[Jhawk 1075]

6 hours ago, Fozzz said:

And then he was released and the officers responsible were detained and suspended.  What do you think would happen here if Nancy Pelosi announced herself as "interim President" with the backing of Russia and China (each of who were sanctioning the US in order to empower the opposition)?  Do you think there would not be any repercussions?  

No because Trump is a russian puppet.  It would all be part of the plan.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

7 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

The problem is that Guaido talks a good game about free elections, but if he succeeds, it will probably work out like the rest of these things do.  

It starts with "Now is not the time for elections. We have to first rebuild our governing structure."

Then "The economy is getting better.  Having an election now will only disrupt that."

Then "Everyone loves me.  Let's have a sham election."

And finally "Fuck it.  No more elections. I'm dictator for life bitches."

Better to take that risk than continuing with the status quo. I got a chuckle out of Hank Kingsley knocking Marco Rubio for his Tweet. If Hank was a real Iranian like me, he’d know that Marco as a Cuban-American has dreamt and thought of how he’d help his ancestral homeland achieve regime change. I’m sure his recommendations with respect to American diplomats presenting their credentials to the newly inaugurated transitional President was with that in mind. Freeing Cuba and Iran is the dream of any real Cuban or Iranian-American. If I was a Congressman or Senator, I would “war game” actions the US government could take to achieve that goal. I’m sure that’s what Marco has done because he loves Cuba from what I know about him

Edited January 24, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[Jhawk 1075]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You realize there is no winning move with Venezuela right? 

What do you suggest the United States do? 

I can't believe I'm on the same side as Hugo.

Seriously fozz, what do you think should be done in Venezuela by the following parties:

1. The USA

2. Other Western democracies

3. The Venezuelan people

4. The Maduro Regime

5. The opposition regime

You response to this will help clear the air for all of us since no one seems to understand what endgame you are cheering for.

[Trey3216 15344]

24 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I can't believe I'm on the same side as Hugo.

Seriously fozz, what do you think should be done in Venezuela by the following parties:

1. The USA

2. Other Western democracies

3. The Venezuelan people

4. The Maduro Regime

5. The opposition regime

You response to this will help clear the air for all of us since no one seems to understand what endgame you are cheering for.

From reading through his responses:

 

1)Nothing, because US interference is fraudulent and an attempt to make corporations money.

2) Nothing, because Western Democracies are bad and it is their fault that Venezuela is in the situation it's in.

3) Deal with it

4) a)Keep on keeping on.  They're doing solid things, if it weren't for those pesky democracies.  b) Wait for oil prices to double again so they can set the course straight

5) stay out of Maduro's way, and don't cave to Western Democracies because they may end up making money off of your incredible efforts to starve and bankrupt your country.  

[Fozzz 152]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

I guess i'm confused on what the Fozz wants here.  The US has done nothing that other countries haven't already done.  We don't have a military presence there and I doubt we put one there.  Venezuela is in terrible shape and isn't a free enough economy for the citizens to grin and bear it any longer.  It isn't US citizens or assets in the streets.  The US isn't starving.  US citizens aren't being killed.  That is all venezuelans. The US voicing support for fair elections and an economy that can empower citizens to enrich their own lives is a good thing, ESPECIALLY if we stay the fuck out of it from a people standpoint.  

What is the evidence supporting the contention that there is currently a famine in Venezuela?  This gets thrown around a lot by people, but I haven't seen anyone actually support it.  I know there are shortages of some foods, but that has been exasperated by our sanctions.  For example:

Quote

Under the deal struck with Deutsche Bank in 2015, Venezuela put up 17 tonnes of gold in exchange for a loan, according to one of the sources who asked not to be identified because it is not authorized to speak publicly about the issue.

The country’s gold holdings fell to 134 tonnes in November compared with 150 tonnes at the start of 2018, according to central bank statistics.

This is in part because Venezuela last year started carrying out gold barter operations with Turkey to import food following U.S. sanctions that have made international banks reluctant to handle Venezuelan transactions.

https://www.reuters.com/article/venezuela-gold/venezuela-gold-holdings-in-bank-of-england-soar-on-deutsche-deal-sources-idUSL1N1ZI19I

Funny how we purposely do things to exasperate certain conditions, and then cite those same conditions in support of interfering?  Almost like we really don't give a fuck what happens to those people.  It's disgusting.  

[bad_teammate 13191]

3 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Funny how we purposely do things to exasperate certain conditions, and then cite those same conditions in support of interfering?  Almost like we really don't give a fuck what happens to those people.  It's disgusting.  

This is how we've always handled South and Central America.

[Fozzz 152]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

I can't believe I'm on the same side as Hugo.

Seriously fozz, what do you think should be done in Venezuela by the following parties:

1. The USA

2. Other Western democracies

3. The Venezuelan people

4. The Maduro Regime

5. The opposition regime

You response to this will help clear the air for all of us since no one seems to understand what endgame you are cheering for.

As an American, it's not really my place to prescribe what the Venezuelans should do.  But the US should relieve sanctions and provide support to refugees either directly and apply pressure to Ecuador and Brazil to do the same.  

[Brisketexan 105064]

exacerbate

 verb

ex·ac·er·bate | \ ig-ˈza-sər-ˌbāt  \

exacerbated; exacerbating

Definition of exacerbate: to make more violent, bitter, or severe.

The new law only exacerbates the problem.