Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[Brisketexan 106898]

10 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

What is the evidence supporting the contention that there is currently a famine in Venezuela?  This gets thrown around a lot by people, but I haven't seen anyone actually support it.

From those well-known super-fascists at the Guardian, as just one example:

Quote

Nearly three-quarters of Venezuelans have lost weight over the past year, and the average loss was a huge 9kg, or nearly a stone and a half, according to a survey by the country’s top universities. For many that is simply because food is too expensive. Nine out of 10 homes can’t cover the cost of what they should eat.

And 10 million people skip at least one meal a day, often to help feed their children.

As for weaponizing food, please, do lecture us on that.  This is from those Nazis over at Human Rights Watch:

Quote

For some time, people could purchase a strictly limited amount of the food packages on specific days of the week, depending on the last numbers of their identity card. They had to line up for hours outside the supermarkets, and stocks often ran out before everyone in line had been served. Shortages contributed to the politicization of distribution.

For example, one night last year, in the middle of an antigovernment protest in Caracas, one of us spotted a woman on the street talking to a member of an armed pro-government gang.

Protesters recognized the woman as the neighborhood distributor of the government’s food boxes. She, in turn, noticed her neighbors looking at her and screamed that people who had participated in antigovernment demonstrations would no longer get the boxes of food. And most haven’t.

You're shitting yourself rather badly around here.  A smart person would stop.

[Fozzz 152]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

From those well-known super-fascists at the Guardian, as just one example:

As for weaponizing food, please, do lecture us on that.  This is from those Nazis over at Human Rights Watch:

You're shitting yourself rather badly around here.  A smart person would stop.

And how is toppling the current government going to improve those conditions?  The most likely outcome, as we've seen in Syria, will be a prolonged civil war.  Would that be an improvement?  

[Fozzz 152]

Let's see - opposition leader is not broadly popular at all (and is, in fact, deeply unpopular), Maduro remains in control of the military...how do you see that unfolding?  If we want to "do something" besides what we're doing now in exacerbating suffering in that country (something which i'm sure you support, Brisket), we will need to provide military support to insurgents within the country.  How does that usually work out, Brisket?

[Brisketexan 106898]

18 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

And how is toppling the current government going to improve those conditions?  The most likely outcome, as we've seen in Syria, will be a prolonged civil war.  Would that be an improvement?  

I love your certainty without support.  Civil War is not inevitable.  History tells us, actually, that when strongmen fall, it often goes quickly, without civil war.  YES, there is a risk.  Everyone here is playing with people's lives.  I find it FASCINATING that you absolve the Maduro regime for doing so, right now, as we speak.

12 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Let's see - opposition leader is not broadly popular at all (and is, in fact, deeply unpopular), Maduro remains in control of the military...how do you see that unfolding?  If we want to "do something" besides what we're doing now in exacerbating suffering in that country (something which i'm sure you support, Brisket), we will need to provide military support to insurgents within the country.  How does that usually work out, Brisket?

Source?  I mean a RELIABLE source?  Hell, sources that strongly OPPOSE US Military intervention/support of a possible military coup put popular support for the Maduro regime at around 30% (acknowledging that truly accurate polling in ANY direction is difficult in Venezuela these days -- that alone is a problematic flag for a functioning nation state).  https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14077

Saying "this won't end well" ignores the fact that it's ALREADY NOT ENDING WELL.  There is no "good and happy" path for Venezuela.  Hell, just like I say there's no "good and happy' path for us right here in River City.  All choices are "pick your flavor of shitty."

 

[hayden_horn 11402]

54 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

What is the evidence supporting the contention that there is currently a famine in Venezuela?  This gets thrown around a lot by people, but I haven't seen anyone actually support it.  I know there are shortages of some foods, but that has been exasperated by our sanctions.  For example:

https://www.reuters.com/article/venezuela-gold/venezuela-gold-holdings-in-bank-of-england-soar-on-deutsche-deal-sources-idUSL1N1ZI19I

Funny how we purposely do things to exasperate certain conditions, and then cite those same conditions in support of interfering?  Almost like we really don't give a fuck what happens to those people.  It's disgusting.  

I'm exasperated by this post

[bernorange 8385]

4 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we have openly supportive Chavistas on the surl.

linux is back?

[Fozzz 152]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I love your certainty without support.  Civil War is not inevitable.  History tells us, actually, that when strongmen fall, it often goes quickly, without civil war.  YES, there is a risk.  Everyone here is playing with people's lives.  I find it FASCINATING that you absolve the Maduro regime for doing so, right now, as we speak.

Source?  I mean a RELIABLE source?  Hell, sources that strongly OPPOSE US Military intervention/support of a possible military coup put popular support for the Maduro regime at around 30% (acknowledging that truly accurate polling in ANY direction is difficult in Venezuela these days -- that alone is a problematic flag for a functioning nation state).  https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14077

Saying "this won't end well" ignores the fact that it's ALREADY NOT ENDING WELL.  There is no "good and happy" path for Venezuela.  Hell, just like I say there's no "good and happy' path for us right here in River City.  All choices are "pick your flavor of shitty."

 

My source is from the opposition's own polling.

 

Please name some occasions where the US intervened to overthrow a government and things improved?  There are countless examples to the contrary including ones that are ongoing to this very day.  We certainly did not improve the situation in Syria by supporting the opposition there, and in fact, our actions likely resulted in many more people getting killed there by prolonging the conflict.  You accuse me of "absolving" the Maduro regime when you refuse to admit that the most probable outcome of intervention is a situation that is orders of magnitude worse than the current situation.  

Do you support our current sanctions against Venezuela, sanctions that are adding to the suffering of Venezuelans?  

[Brisketexan 106898]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

My source is from the opposition's own polling.

 

Please name some occasions where the US intervened to overthrow a government and things improved?  There are countless examples to the contrary including ones that are ongoing to this very day.  We certainly did not improve the situation in Syria by supporting the opposition there, and in fact, our actions likely resulted in many more people getting killed there by prolonging the conflict.  You accuse me of "absolving" the Maduro regime when you refuse to admit that the most probable outcome of intervention is a situation that is orders of magnitude worse than the current situation.  

Do you support our current sanctions against Venezuela, sanctions that are adding to the suffering of Venezuelans?  

Wow.  You are amazing.  What is that poll of?

It's a poll of approval of....the National Assembly.  It has an approval rating of 25%.  And you use an approval rating of the BODY to extrapolate to an approval of an individual MEMBER of that body.

You know what body has an even LOWER approval rating?  The United States Congress (current approval rating is around 20%). 

So, by YOUR reasoning, no member of Congress is popular enough to be President.  I'm sure former Senator Obama, who ran for President when the approval rating was also around 20%, will be surprised to find out that popularity of the body extrapolates to popularity of a member such that he was disapproved by 80% of the voters.  The ballot counters in 2008 will be ESPECIALLY surprised by your reasoning, which transforms a clear election win by Senator Obama in 2008 to a stunning 80-20 defeat.

Oh, and you'll note that I cited the SAME entity for the acknowledgment that support for Maduro is in the shittastic range of around 30%.  Interesting that you agree that the body may have some credibility, but you are incapable of accurately citing the data.

Would you like to continue to stick data far up your own ass, or do you think that maybe now is a good time to stop?

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Wow.  You are amazing.  What is that poll of?

It's a poll of approval of....the National Assembly.  It has an approval rating of 25%.  And you use an approval rating of the BODY to extrapolate to an approval of an individual MEMBER of that body.

You know what body has an even LOWER approval rating?  The United States Congress (current approval rating is around 20%). 

So, by YOUR reasoning, no member of Congress is popular enough to be President.  I'm sure former Senator Obama, who ran for President when the approval rating was also around 20%, will be surprised to find out that popularity of the body extrapolates to popularity of a member such that he was disapproved by 80% of the voters.  The ballot counters in 2008 will be ESPECIALLY surprised by your reasoning, which transforms a clear election win by Senator Obama in 2008 to a stunning 80-20 defeat.

Oh, and you'll note that I cited the SAME entity for the acknowledgment that support for Maduro is in the shittastic range of around 30%.  Interesting that you agree that the body may have some credibility, but you are incapable of accurately citing the data.

Would you like to continue to stick data far up your own ass, or do you think that maybe now is a good time to stop?

That's not a really fair comparison given the opposition has a supermajority in the National Assembly, which very rarely happens in the US given that we have two separate chambers.  In such a situation, I think it's a fair indicator of the support for the opposition.  If there was broad popular support for the opposition, why would it's favorability be that low?

Also, why do you choose to avoid my questions?

[Fozzz 152]

Regarding the survey mentioned from the Guardian article you cite:

Quote

US newspapers and journals often attribute their Venezuelan hunger figures to “a recent survey … by the country’s leading universities.” The survey in question was published on February 27, 2016 by Simón Bolívar University, the Central University of Venezuela, and the Bengoa Foundation. The report, which focuses on Venezuelan nutrition, is part of an annual review covering the state of living conditions in the country. Maritza Landaeta-Jiménez, who as recently as 2013 was a member of the Venezuelan opposition’s Nutrition Commission, headed the 2016 research. The document, based on a survey of 6,413 Venezuelans, reported that 93 percent of Venezuelans felt that they did not have enough money to purchase food, and that 72.7 percent of Venezuelans had lost an average of 8.7 kilograms (19 pounds) in the past year. However, the same survey revealed that 67.5 percent of Venezuelans were eating three meals a day, and only 25 percent of the country felt that their nutrition could be categorized as “deficient.”

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/the-media-venezuela-and-hunger-statistics-a-case-study-in-careless-reporting

Hmm.  That's obviously not great but I wonder how that would compare to other Latin American countries?  

[GHOSTUSER 361]

11 hours ago, Fozzz said:

Pinochet supporter here.

imo, fascists are much more willing to identify themselves when discussing the politics of other states than our own.  It's a quirk of these kinds of discussions.

Pinochet laid the foundation for Chile becoming the strong, wealthy nation it has become. You think Chile would be the same place it is now with Allende and his band of socialists having free reign back in the 70s? There is a reason why my American foreign policy hero, Sec. Kissinger, backed the coup. We used to have guys who could read the room and determine that guys like Pinochet and the Shah are far better for American interests and the welfare of their own countries than the alternatives. I wish the Shah had the strength and knowledge of a Pinochet. Chile lucked out.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[Fozzz 152]

2 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Pinochet laid the foundation for Chile becoming the strong, wealthy nation it has become. You think Chile would be the same place it is now with Allende and his band of socialists having free reign back in the 70s? There is a reason why my American foreign policy hero, Sec. Kissinger, backed the coup. We used to have guys who could read the room and determine that guys like Pinochet and the Shah are far better for American interests and the welfare of their own countries than the alternatives. I wish the Shah had the strength and knowledge of a Pinochet. Chile lucked out.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

11 hours ago, Fozzz said:

Pretty funny that this guy who is painted by Western media as a modern day Stalin hasn't executed Guaido.  Why hasn't the National Guard (which supports Maduro) been called up to murder every single figure of importance in the opposition? 

If you were to follow only mainstream Western media, you would be under the impression that Maduro's government has no popular base of support, and that the protests currently ongoing there are almost entirely directed against the government.  Of course this is wrong, because as I said above and was mocked for by Brisket, the mainstream Western media is simply parroting propaganda.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/images/14246

 

I can show similar images of “supporters” of the mullahs in Iran. Let me guess, like their Iranian counterparts, these supporters are civil servants that have to show up the these rallies to get paid. Love it when leftists trot shit like this out since the days of the Iron Curtain.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

9 hours ago, Fozzz said:

A voice of sanity.

 

 

Further evidence for those of us living in the real world that progressives can never be trusted when it comes to foreign policy. People who don’t understand how we have used in the past and can project power to achieve American foreign policy goals. Sympathetic to the Morsis of the world while not realizing that our best interests lie with a strongman like Gen. Sisi.

[bad_teammate 13523]

Brisket and Iconoclast sittin' in a tree/
(regime) c-h-a-n-gi-n-g

The issue here is not that Maduro is good and the elections there are fair and free. I don't think Maduro is good and I don't think the elections there are either fair or free. However, our president is an absolute nightmare and our elections are rigged in many respects. I do not want any foreign powers instigating coup efforts here, and I see absolutely no reason to instigate coup efforts abroad.

The adventurists should be able to answer some simple questions:

1 - What is the outcome you wish to see? (What is the win state?)
2 - What are we going to do to bring about that win state?
3 - How realistic is that effort?
4 - What are the potential negative consequences?

Let's say the Western powers, whose racist, imperialist chauvinism is responsible for tens/hundreds of millions of South and Central American deaths over the last couple of centuries, successfully helps depose Maduro and helps install Guiado... then what? The people in Venezuela who support Maduro, including the Venezuelan military, are just going to be fine with it? It's not going to become a bloody civil war?

We really like to gamble with other people's lives, especially if those people are brown.

[Fozzz 152]

2 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Further evidence for those of us living in the real world that progressives can never be trusted when it comes to foreign policy. People who don’t understand how we have used in the past and can project power to achieve American foreign policy goals. Sympathetic to the Morsis of the world while not realizing that our best interests lie with a strongman like Gen. Sisi.

Thought you were a paleocon bruh. 

[Viper 12220]

13 hours ago, Fozzz said:

Pinochet supporter here.

imo, fascists are much more willing to identify themselves when discussing the politics of other states than our own.  It's a quirk of these kinds of discussions.

You're a Pinochet supporter? But what does Pinochet have to do with fascists?

[David Dennison 19539]

Just now, Viper said:

You're a Pinochet supporter? But what does Pinochet have to do with fascists?

LOL

[Fozzz 152]

7 minutes ago, Viper said:

You're a Pinochet supporter? But what does Pinochet have to do with fascists?

Viper, more than anyone, people such as yourself are the enemy of democracy in this nation. Your side must be destroyed. 

[Viper 12220]

Haha, I'm sorry do I know you?

[Trey3216 15452]

11 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Viper, more than anyone, people such as yourself are the enemy of democracy in this nation. Your side must be destroyed. 

And folks like you have no idea why comments like yours are the biggest enemy of not only democracy, but intellect.  Well done Che 

[bolverk 30323]

2 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Pinochet laid the foundation for Chile becoming the strong, wealthy nation it has become. You think Chile would be the same place it is now with Allende and his band of socialists having free reign back in the 70s? There is a reason why my American foreign policy hero, Sec. Kissinger, backed the coup. We used to have guys who could read the room and determine that guys like Pinochet and the Shah are far better for American interests and the welfare of their own countries than the alternatives. I wish the Shah had the strength and knowledge of a Pinochet. Chile lucked out.

You are a truly disturbed individual. *Something* has infected your brain and is eating at your soul. Please, get help.

[InkaUtexas 26885]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

The adventurists should be able to answer some simple questions:

1 - What is the outcome you wish to see? (What is the win state?)
2 - What are we going to do to bring about that win state?
3 - How realistic is that effort?
4 - What are the potential negative consequences?

Let's say the Western powers, whose racist, imperialist chauvinism is responsible for tens/hundreds of millions of South and Central American deaths over the last couple of centuries, successfully helps depose Maduro and helps install Guiado... then what? The people in Venezuela who support Maduro, including the Venezuelan military, are just going to be fine with it? It's not going to become a bloody civil war?

We really like to gamble with other people's lives, especially if those people are brown.

Ok, I will play. 

1- Venezuela regaining its place among the Latin American community and not being the current basket case it is. A nation that was once brokering peace in the hemisphere as a non-aligned nation, albeit a signature to the Rio Treaty. 

2- Let the few existing institutions within Venezuela, and sadly that is only the lower ranks in the Army (Captain down) do their thing. The Generals and Colonels are already part of the system) 

3- Very. There is not enough kibble to go around for all. Their mothers and wives are very influential. (Think Argentina in 1982 and why did it not go the way of Chile). 

4- Mass demonstrations, massacres, silent prisons, and a massive backlash against the Chavistas. well that would happen at some point with or without external intervention. 

Please quantify the Hundreds of Millions of deaths. Are you including the Spanish and Portuguese? And sometimes my man, people do need to gamble for themselves. Shit, following your logic you would still be a British subject. 

Civil wars happen. The key is how the international community deals with it. 

[David Dennison 19539]

Let's just hope the poors play along and don't get too red.

[InkaUtexas 26885]

24 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Let's just hope the poors play along and don't get too red.

Or leave the country. Then it can be Maduro, his cops and the "believer" who stay and work for the collapsing oil company and national government.

Hell they can pay for their shopping trips to Miami by selling their fishing rights to China. 

[InkaUtexas 26885]

Worth a browse. 

https://www.csis.org/analysis/struggle-control-occupied-venezuela

 

 

[bad_teammate 13523]

8 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

1- Venezuela regaining its place among the Latin American community and not being the current basket case it is. A nation that was once brokering peace in the hemisphere as a non-aligned nation, albeit a signature to the Rio Treaty. 

If there's one thing I know, it's that you want your win state to be as vague as possible.

Quote

2- Let the few existing institutions within Venezuela, and sadly that is only the lower ranks in the Army (Captain down) do their thing. The Generals and Colonels are already part of the system) 

Jesus Christ, what does this even mean?

"Let" them? What's stopping them now? (Follow-up: How do we remove that impediment?)

 

Quote

3- Very. There is not enough kibble to go around for all. Their mothers and wives are very influential. (Think Argentina in 1982 and why did it not go the way of Chile). 

Vague plans always feel like they have a high chance of success.

"If we do the cool stuff then good things are awesomely going to happen!"

Quote

4- Mass demonstrations, massacres, silent prisons, and a massive backlash against the Chavistas. well that would happen at some point with or without external intervention. 

Completely unwarranted confidence intended to justify continued imperialistic intervention.

Quote

Please quantify the Hundreds of Millions of deaths. Are you including the Spanish and Portuguese?

Yes... I said "Western powers" and those were two extremely powerful European empires.

Why wouldn't they be included in that category?

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Does Venezuela have any right wing militias like Colombia had back in the day? You’d think they’d be allies to help consolidate power for the new president.

[David Dennison 19539]

6 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Does Venezuela have any right wing militias like Colombia had back in the day? You’d think they’d be allies to help consolidate power for the new president.

The problem is, he's not the new president. 

[Fozzz 152]

Quote

The night before Juan Guaidó declared himself interim president of Venezuela, the opposition leader received a phone call from Vice President Mike Pence.

Mr. Pence pledged that the U.S. would back Mr. Guaidó if he seized the reins of government from Nicolás Maduro by invoking a clause in the South American country’s constitution, a senior administration official said.

That late-night call set in motion a plan that had been developed in secret over the preceding several weeks, accompanied by talks between U.S. officials, allies, lawmakers and key Venezuelan opposition figures, including Mr. Guaidó himself.

It culminated in the 35-year-old Mr. Guaidó’s declaration Wednesday that Mr. Maduro’s government was illegitimate and that Mr. Guaidó, president of the country’s National Assembly, was assuming power in accordance with the country’s constitution.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-call-from-pence-helped-set-an-uncertain-new-course-in-venezuela-11548430259

Would hate for a non-interventionist to be nominated by the Dems, then Brisket may have to consider voting for Trump in 2020 lest we fail to save Venezuela from themselves.  

[bad_teammate 13523]

I wonder how much this has to do with the fact that Venezuela's oil reserves are insanely large and that Guiado would probably privatize them immediately and sell them to the massive multi-nationals that fund the Republican Party (and many Democrats).

Probably unrelated.

[Bojack 2091]

3 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Does Venezuela have any right wing militias like Colombia had back in the day? You’d think they’d be allies to help consolidate power for the new president.

Stop with your complaining about the Maduro government and the mullahs in Iran.  They're not as bad as the Golden Horde.  

[Fozzz 152]

"Maduro provides operational space to Hezbollah & Iran" lmao

 

People who subscribe to the hollow earth theory have stronger grip on reality than this stupid bitch.

[Biff Tannen 46165]

Is there a Cliff's Notes version of wtf is going on here?

[bad_teammate 13523]

10 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Is there a Cliff's Notes version of wtf is going on here?

Maduro won a likely-rigged election in 2018. The opposition party boycotted it. Guiado is the champion of that opposition party and is now saying he is the "interim" president... even though he didn't run in 2018 and the citizens haven't voted for him.

Western powers and those in Latin America who are subservient to Western powers want Guiado to become the interim president because he supports the privatization of Venezula's nationalized industries and, like the fascist Bolsonaro in Brazil, will "open" Venezuela to more "business". Which is to say, he will sell the nation's resources to huge multi-national corporations.

A foreign coup installing Guiado as an "interim" president is even less legitimate than a rigged election for Maduro.

We continue to press for economic and aid sanctions against Venezuela, continuing to punish the hurting people there for embracing socialism under Chavez. Because it's for their own good and we know better.

Even as our own nation's executive branch crumbles under arrests and scandal and France has to send jack-booted thugs to oppress the working class.

But seriously we are better than them and they should ignore their own elections, flawed as they are, so we can buy all their natural resources and destroy their monetary system just like we've done in so many other places.

[Brisketexan 106898]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Maduro won a likely-rigged election in 2018. The opposition party boycotted it. Guiado is the champion of that opposition party and is now saying he is the "interim" president... even though he didn't run in 2018 and the citizens haven't voted for him.

Western powers and those in Latin America who are subservient to Western powers want Guiado to become the interim president because he supports the privatization of Venezula's nationalized industries and, like the fascist Bolsonaro in Brazil, will "open" Venezuela to more "business". Which is to say, he will sell the nation's resources to huge multi-national corporations.

A foreign coup installing Guiado as an "interim" president is even less legitimate than a rigged election for Maduro.

We continue to press for economic and aid sanctions against Venezuela, continuing to punish the hurting people there for embracing socialism under Chavez. Because it's for their own good and we know better.

Even as our own nation's executive branch crumbles under arrests and scandal and France has to send jack-booted thugs to oppress the working class.

But seriously we are better than them and they should ignore their own elections, flawed as they are, so we can buy all their natural resources and destroy their monetary system just like we've done in so many other places.

Alternative version: leftists like Bad Teammate are STRONGLY against authoritarian, anti-democratic regimes (thus their many complaints about Trump and Trumpism -- a matter on which they have much company from many spots on the spectrum)....unless they're leftist regimes, in which case they are sanctified champions of the people, and should be supported without question.

[Fozzz 152]

23 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Is there a Cliff's Notes version of wtf is going on here?

Here is some good background on the current situation.

https://nacla.org/news/2018/05/18/united-states’-hand-undermining-democracy-venezuela

[hpslugga 4097]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Alternative version: leftists like Bad Teammate are STRONGLY against authoritarian, anti-democratic regimes (thus their many complaints about Trump and Trumpism -- a matter on which they have much company from many spots on the spectrum)....unless they're leftist regimes, in which case they are sanctified champions of the people, and should be supported without question.

I wouldn’t paint with such a large brush. I can’t speak for bad teammate, but I can comfortably consider myself “leftist” by just about any norm-references definition of the term and will tell you straight up that Maduro is an absolute disgrace.

The only additional position I take (and I’m not at all alone on this) on Venezuela is that regardless of what ends up happening, the United States needs to stay the fuck away from it as it’s none of our goddamn business and we’ve done enough damage to that country (the region in general) as it is.

[bad_teammate 13523]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Alternative version: leftists like Bad Teammate are STRONGLY against authoritarian, anti-democratic regimes (thus their many complaints about Trump and Trumpism -- a matter on which they have much company from many spots on the spectrum)....unless they're leftist regimes, in which case they are sanctified champions of the people, and should be supported without question.

You're responding to a post in which I call the elections of 2018 likely-rigged and call Maduro's presidency illegitimate.

lol

[Brisketexan 106898]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

You're responding to a post in which I call the elections of 2018 likely-rigged and call Maduro's presidency illegitimate.

lol

Yet you give zero fucks.  That's kind of a key thing.

[bad_teammate 13523]

Brisket's arguments are almost indistinguishable from the arguments neo-cons made in the run-up to our invasion of Iraq.

"Oh look at you you love Saddam Hussein so much, huh!?!?!?!"

[bad_teammate 13523]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Yet you give zero fucks.  That's kind of a key thing.

About what?

I am largely non-interventionist and highly critical of US foreign policy in general and re: Latin America specifically. This is none of our business. Our sole desire should be to work with the international community at large, ESPECIALLY regional partners, primarily in order to provide aid to hurting people.

Our economic sanctions against Venezuela have escalated since they DARED to elect a socialist and nationalize industry. Those international sanctions are partly responsible for what we see today. As we have done DOZENS of times in Latin America, we help create a problem and then claim our covert or overt intervention and regime-change efforts are the only solution.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Brisket's arguments are almost indistinguishable from the arguments neo-cons made in the run-up to our invasion of Iraq.

"Oh look at you you love Saddam Hussein so much, huh!?!?!?!"

They are similar to the arguments made in support of the coup against Zelaya.  Things were bad and couldn't possibly get worse!  Well, they got worse...

[Brisketexan 106898]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Brisket's arguments are almost indistinguishable from the arguments neo-cons made in the run-up to our invasion of Iraq.

"Oh look at you you love Saddam Hussein so much, huh!?!?!?!"

You excuse Maduro and the Chavez regime 100%, because they are "leftist."  The fact that you are quite fine with authoritarian rule, so long as it's authoritarian in the name of your beloved political philosophy, undermines every single thing you say.  

Let's take the bad teammate approach: "your attacks on Trump are invalid -- you just oppose him, and his admittedly crooked and incompetent regime, because you want to impose a socialist workers' paradise."  

See how easy it is?  Doesn't even require thinking -- you just get to accept everything you want, and dismiss everything you don't, based solely on the window-dressing of a purported political ideology.  Methodology (authoritarianism) is totally irrelevant.  Gosh, I like this new bad teammate way of doing things.  It's SO easy.  I may just start doing it full time.  Thanks, BT!

[bad_teammate 13523]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

You excuse Maduro and the Chavez regime 100%, because they are "leftist."

Quote me.

You're rambling in some right-wing "COMMIE!" frenzy.

Quote

The fact that you are quite fine with authoritarian rule, so long as it's authoritarian in the name of your beloved political philosophy, undermines every single thing you say.  

I guess if you just repeat it, without any evidence, it becomes true.

Quote my support of the Maduro regime. I'm waiting.

[Brisketexan 106898]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Quote me.

You're rambling in some right-wing "COMMIE!" frenzy.

I guess if you just repeat it, without any evidence, it becomes true.

Quote my support of the Maduro regime. I'm waiting.

Well, let's see....nobody should do anything about the Maduro regime.  Wait....except send food aid.  Because the ONLY real threat to the Maduro regime is internal, by a hungry and dissatisfied population, so the ONE thing that you think "non-interventionist" outsiders should do is....intervene in a way to take pressure off of the Maduro regime.  Did I miss a step?  I don't think I did.

[Fozzz 152]

Compare the actions of the US in this matter with the actions of Uruguay and Mexico and it becomes plain which actors are trying to play a constructive role in helping the Venezuelan people and which actor only cares about Venezuelans to the extent that their suffering can further that actor's own interests.  

[bad_teammate 13523]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Well, let's see....nobody should do anything about the Maduro regime.  Wait....except send food aid.  Because the ONLY real threat to the Maduro regime is internal, by a hungry and dissatisfied population, so the ONE thing that you think "non-interventionist" outsiders should do is....intervene in a way to take pressure off of the Maduro regime.  Did I miss a step?  I don't think I did.

Me wanting to help feed, clothe, and heal hungry, naked, and sick people is support for Maduro?

Listen to yourself. You're advocating hurting the people of Venezuela and hoping that pain leads them to a bloody civil war. It's monstrous. Not only that, it doesn't work.

[Hank Scorpio 17924]

13 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

About what?

I am largely non-interventionist and highly critical of US foreign policy in general and re: Latin America specifically. This is none of our business. Our sole desire should be to work with the international community at large, ESPECIALLY regional partners, primarily in order to provide aid to hurting people.

Our economic sanctions against Venezuela have escalated since they DARED to elect a socialist and nationalize industry. Those international sanctions are partly responsible for what we see today. As we have done DOZENS of times in Latin America, we help create a problem and then claim our covert or overt intervention and regime-change efforts are the only solution.

What a rabid fucking leftist you are. America shouldn't interfere in a Latin American country's politics and should join a coalition of regional countries to try and come up with a solution? Are you fucking insane? That's like the #1 thing America was invented for. We can't let those stupid brown people down there do whatever the fuck it is they want. They don't even know what they want. But you know who does? Fuckin' Merica that's who. 

[Brisketexan 106898]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Me wanting to help feed, clothe, and heal hungry, naked, and sick people is support for Maduro?

Listen to yourself. You're advocating hurting the people of Venezuela and hoping that pain leads them to a bloody civil war. It's monstrous. Not only that, it doesn't work.

I'm thinking that the hurting MADURO is putting on his own people will have an effect, yes, I do.  

And pain doesn't work as a source of regime change?  Huh.  Interesting.  Like, pretty much every successful popular revolution (of which there have been many) is predicated by the people being fed up with their shitty lot.

But, you know, we GOTTA do all we can to prop up Maduro's "workers' paradise."  Nevermind that it's just another shitty tinpot authoritarian dictatorship wearing the thin and shitty clothing of a style that bad teammate finds captivating to the point of total distraction.