Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[bad_teammate 13523]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm thinking that the hurting MADURO is putting on his own people will have an effect, yes, I do.  

We're not part of it? The sanctions we and our partners have placed on Venezuela are not part of it?

But beyond that, do we not have an obligation to try and help suffering people even in nations we don't like with governments we don't like?

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And pain doesn't work as a source of regime change?  Huh.  Interesting.  Like, pretty much every successful popular revolution (of which there have been many) is predicated by the people being fed up with their shitty lot.

If it's pain caused (even in part) by international forces then, no, it doesn't necessarily work because the Venezeulans have their own minds and brains and their own views of Western political and financial power. It's not an accident that Chavismo was/is so wildly popular. If Guiano's illegitimate interim presidency goes through, it will have the stink of Western/US meddling all over it in the minds of millions of Venezuelans... because it's true and they're not dumb.

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But, you know, we GOTTA do all we can to prop up Maduro's "workers' paradise."

Why do you put quotation marks around things I haven't said? Why have you retreated into outright lying?

#sad

[Brisketexan 106898]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

We're not part of it? The sanctions we and our partners have placed on Venezuela are not part of it?

But beyond that, do we not have an obligation to try and help suffering people even in nations we don't like with governments we don't like?

If it's pain caused (even in part) by international forces then, no, it doesn't necessarily work because the Venezeulans have their own minds and brains and their own views of Western political and financial power. It's not an accident that Chavismo was/is so wildly popular. If Guiano's illegitimate interim presidency goes through, it will have the stink of Western/US meddling all over it in the minds of millions of Venezuelans... because it's true and they're not dumb.

Why do you put quotation marks around things I haven't said? Why have you retreated into outright lying?

#sad

How do you feel about Russia sending "private contractors" to help out Maduro?  Still a fan of "non-interventionism?"  Maybe you should issue a strongly-worded note.

You don't see any way out for the Venezuelan people.  And more importantly, you don't WANT any way out for them.  Because you think that if Maduro fails, your ideology has failed (for the record, I don't think that's true - Venezuela isn't failing solely because of some ill-conceived leftist policies.  It's failing because of the inherent flaws of authoritarian regimes -- corruption, theft by the governing/military class, and a refusal to alter course because that would signify weakness, which an authoritarian can never do).

Just say it -- there's no way out for the Venezuelan people.  None that you'll accept, anyway.

[Anastasis 23718]

Maybe this time will be different than every other time we intervene to forward American ideals around the world. 

[bad_teammate 13523]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

How do you feel about Russia sending "private contractors" to help out Maduro?  Still a fan of "non-interventionism?"  Maybe you should issue a strongly-worded note.

I don't like it. I also don't think we should use the suffering of the Venezuelan people as a chip in a proxy war against the dread Russian menace.

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You don't see any way out for the Venezuelan people.  And more importantly, you don't WANT any way out for them.

You have whipped yourself into an insane frenzy and it's kind of amazing to watch.

I would like for Venezuela to self-determine their own future in free and fair elections.

Or, as I said on Page 4:

The way to "solve" the Venezuela problem is to work with partners in the UN and the regional partners around Venezuela to pursue goals that genuinely help the people there get out of poverty and starvation and then support their self-determined government.

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Because you think that if Maduro fails, your ideology has failed (for the record, I don't think that's true - Venezuela isn't failing solely because of some ill-conceived leftist policies.  It's failing because of the inherent flaws of authoritarian regimes -- corruption, theft by the governing/military class, and a refusal to alter course because that would signify weakness, which an authoritarian can never do).

You have just been humiliated so thoroughly in this thread you have to basically become Swam. Just pathetic, man. Take the L and walk away.

[bad_teammate 13523]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe this time will be different than every other time we intervene to forward American ideals around the world. 

YOU COMMUNIST WITH YOUR NICHOLAS MADURO BODY PILLOW THAT YOU HAVE COMMUNIST RELATIONS WITH WHILE SINGING THE INTERNATIONAL UNTIL CLIMAX HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!

[Brisketexan 106898]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The way to "solve" the Venezuela problem is to work with partners in the UN and the regional partners around Venezuela to pursue goals that genuinely help the people there get out of poverty and starvation and then support their self-determined government.

Put some meat on that.  What does it look like?  I mean, OTHER than propping up the Maduro regime by providing them food aid that 1) they will take credit for, and 2) will use to alleviate the natural pressure building against the regime?  Might it look like....diplomacy?  Withholding recognition of a corrupt government, like numerous other countries, including almost all of its neighbors, have done?

Likewise, you seem to extrapolate that I am advocating for the 101st to drop in and save the day.  You won't find such a position from me.

Fundamentally, you're willing do to nothing, EXCEPT things that, coincidentally I'm sure, will prop up the Maduro regime for even longer.

I don't loathe the regime because it's "socialist."  I loathe it because it's another corrupt authoritarian regime buttfucking its people.  You, on the other hand, want to give the regime a complete free pass, and actually alleviate pressure on it.  I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with political beliefs or affiliation.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Brisketexan

[Fozzz 152]

Brisket, do you support the US' economic sanctions against Venezuela?  

[Fozzz 152]

lmao

 

 

[workswithseed 2204]

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

How do you feel about Russia sending "private contractors" to help out Maduro?  Still a fan of "non-interventionism?"  Maybe you should issue a strongly-worded note.

You don't see any way out for the Venezuelan people.  And more importantly, you don't WANT any way out for them.  Because you think that if Maduro fails, your ideology has failed (for the record, I don't think that's true - Venezuela isn't failing solely because of some ill-conceived leftist policies.  It's failing because of the inherent flaws of authoritarian regimes -- corruption, theft by the governing/military class, and a refusal to alter course because that would signify weakness, which an authoritarian can never do).

Just say it -- there's no way out for the Venezuelan people.  None that you'll accept, anyway.

I'd say that it started off with leftist positions to nationalize oil which made it easy to abuse the government's power.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Cuba and Russia are propping up Maduro which is fine for Fozz and bad teammate; however, the US should betray our historic role as master of the Americas and not play any role in asserting American foreign policy interests in Venezuela. Y’all would neuter our role as a superpower in pursuing vital American interests which includes easing the suffering of the Venezuelan people by seeking a transition back to capitalism. Good editorial from the WSJ concerning the role our rivals are playing in propping up Maduro.

The Venezuelan military holds the key to whether Mr. Maduro will step down peacefully. Common sense and reporting in the country suggest that a good part of the army is ready to side with the Venezuelan people. The rank and file have families who are also suffering the privation caused by nearly two decades of socialist rule.

Potomac Watch Podcast

Yet Cuba controls Mr. Maduro’s personal security detail and has built a counterintelligence network around the high command. Venezuela’s 1,000 or so flag officers operate in silos and are spied on by minders. An officer who sides with the opposition is putting his life and perhaps his family at risk. The head of the armed forces expressed support for Mr. Maduro on Thursday, but the real test may come if soldiers are ordered to fire on protesters or Venezuelans trying to protect Mr. Guaidó. 

Nations that want better for Venezuela should focus as much on Havana as Caracas. If civilized countries want to end the starvation and mass migration of Venezuelans, they have to convince the Cuban regime to back off. That means targeting Havana with diplomatic pressure, as well as sanctions such as travel restrictions and frozen bank accounts.

The Kremlin is also backing Mr. Maduro. Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said Thursday that if the U.S. didn’t stay out of Venezuela there “would be a catastrophic scenario that would shake the foundations of the development model we see in the Latin American region.” 

But Cuba is the imperial power in Caracas, not the U.S., and the only recent “development” in Venezuela has been malnutrition. Russia certainly wouldn’t mind a Syrian-style civil war in Venezuela that spread more chaos in the Americas and more opportunity to undermine democratic governments.

The U.S. must also protect its diplomatic personnel in Caracas. Mr. Maduro on Wednesday ordered Americans to leave the country within 72 hours, but Secretary of State Mike Pompeo replied that the U.S. now recognizes Mr. Guaidó as interim president and will not comply. The U.S. needs to make clear that if Mr. Maduro or his paramilitaries act against Americans, the Administration will hold Cuba responsible. Now that Venezuelans are risking their lives for democracy, free nations owe them support.

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

I'd say that it started off with leftist positions to nationalize oil which made it easy to abuse the government's power.

Yeah, this is why Mexico is basically Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome when compared to other Latin American countries.

[workswithseed 2204]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

Yeah, this is why Mexico is basically Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome when compared to other Latin American countries.

No one holds up Mexico's economy up with pride.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, workswithseed said:

No one holds up Mexico's economy up with pride.

It has one of the highest GDPs/capita of any Latin American state.  

[Brisketexan 106898]

34 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Brisket, do you support the US' economic sanctions against Venezuela?  

Which ones?  Be specific, details matter.  For example, sanctions to prevent members of the regime from hiding their stolen money here in the US?  Or sanctions that prohibit us from trading in Venezuelan sovereign debt?  Which sanctions, which do which things?

[Brisketexan 106898]

6 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Yeah, this is why Mexico is basically Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome when compared to other Latin American countries.

Holding up the Mexican petroleum industry and petroleum economy as a shining star isn't exactly....timely on your part.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Which ones?  Be specific, details matter.  For example, sanctions to prevent members of the regime from hiding their stolen money here in the US?  Or sanctions that prohibit us from trading in Venezuelan sovereign debt?  Which sanctions, which do which things?

Executive Order 13.808

[Brisketexan 106898]

4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Executive Order 13.808

In summary, prohibiting US folks from trading in debt instruments of Venezuela or the Venezuelan national oil company? Yep, I support that.

[David Dennison 19540]

We should set up School of the Americas 2.0.

Oh, wait. It never went away.

Edited January 25, 2019 by David Dennison

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

In summary, prohibiting US folks from trading in debt instruments of Venezuela or the Venezuelan national oil company? Yep, I support that.

So then you support hurting the Venezuelan people in an effort to destabilize the regime?  

[Brisketexan 106898]

13 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

So then you support hurting the Venezuelan people in an effort to destabilize the regime?  

So....wanting to NOT finance the corrupt Maduro regime (understanding that the "government" and the state-owned oil company are fronts for the regime and senior military officers)....that's....bad?  Okay.  

To be clear, you're advocating for a world where we could, instead, send, say $500 million to the regime as financing.....the regime could skim their take off of that (and it ain't gonna be a small take), use some smaller portion of that financing to buy food aid, which they would distribute to the masses as their savior, thus shoring up support and extending the life of the regime causing their suffering....followed by the bonus of a sovereign debt default once the crooks have fled with their money stashed somewhere else?

Yeah.  I'm against that.

[bad_teammate 13523]

55 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Put some meat on that.  What does it look like?

There were already-ongoing mediated negotiations between Maduro's government and the opposition that were already happening before the 2018 election. An ugly, difficult, and slow process that does not involve civil war and starvation. Bring Maduro and the opposition to the negotiating table with regional partners (NOT the US) and offer humanitarian aid in the interim.

Lead by example. Develop and implement processes for democratic electoral transparency and fairness and advocate for their successful implementation in the international community. Encourage friends and partners to adopt similar models and spread them as much as possible. Press for international observers for all elections (we should model that by having them oversee OUR elections) and offer even fatter aid packages and economic incentives in return for that indignity to their sovereignty (and as reparations for the tremendous harm done to the Venezuelan people by these international sanctions).

For a democratic process to be genuine and authentic, it has to be trusted by the people who are intended to be governed. They will not (and SHOULD not) trust any process where our giant, corrupt foot is on anyone's throat.

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I mean, OTHER than propping up the Maduro regime by providing them food aid that 1) they will take credit for, and 2) will use to alleviate the natural pressure building against the regime?  Might it look like....diplomacy?  Withholding recognition of a corrupt government, like numerous other countries, including almost all of its neighbors, have done?

1) So? 2) So?

Do people make better decisions starving or with full bellies?

It is not diplomacy for the President of the United States to talk about a "military option". And as much as you dislike Trump and want to pretend he is an anomaly, that's a basic reality of US/Latin American politics.

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Likewise, you seem to extrapolate that I am advocating for the 101st to drop in and save the day.  You won't find such a position from me.

Your only discernible position is to starve the Venezuelan people into your desired action.

[bad_teammate 13523]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

So....wanting to NOT finance the corrupt Maduro regime (understanding that the "government" and the state-owned oil company are fronts for the regime and senior military officers)....that's....bad?  Okay.  

How many corrupt regimes do we currently "finance"?

Such bizarre selectivity.

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To be clear, you're advocating for a world where we could, instead, send, say $500 million to the regime as financing.....the regime could skim their take off of that (and it ain't gonna be a small take), use some smaller portion of that financing to buy food aid, which they would distribute to the masses as their savior, thus shoring up support and extending the life of the regime causing their suffering....followed by the bonus of a sovereign debt default once the crooks have fled with their money stashed somewhere else?

Yeah.  I'm against that.

Literally fabricate an argument for your opponent and then smack it down. It's impressive to watch.

 

[Brisketexan 106898]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

There were already-ongoing mediated negotiations between Maduro's government and the opposition that were already happening before the 2018 election. An ugly, difficult, and slow process that does not involve civil war and starvation.

Hunger has been on the table for quite some time.

 

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Lead by example. Develop and implement processes for democratic electoral transparency and fairness and advocate for their successful implementation in the international community. Encourage friends and partners to adopt similar models and spread them as much as possible. Press for international observers for all elections (we should model that by having them oversee OUR elections) and offer even fatter aid packages and economic incentives in return for that indignity to their sovereignty (and as reparations for the tremendous harm done to the Venezuelan people by these international sanctions).

I'm down with that.

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

1) So? 2) So?

Do people make better decisions starving or with full bellies?

They make more accurate decisions when they are living within an accurate reality.  If the actions of corrupt regime X are causing the people to be hungry, the situation should not be manipulated so that the people do not hold regime X accountable.

Shit, it's what I've said about us here in the good ole USA -- we fucked up and installed a regime that is happy to buttfuck the American people.  We NEED to experience that buttfucking in order to take the appropriate action: kick DOTUS out, and don't repeat the mistake.  Saving us from the consequences of our stupidity only prolongs the stupidity.

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Your only discernible position is to starve the Venezuelan people into your desired action.

You have chosen the wrong noun to go with that verb.  I don't want to starve the Venezuelan people, and I am not doing so now.  I have taken no food from their mouths.  What I WANT is for the starving people to 1) realize that Maduro and his band of cronies are starving them, and 2) take action to put an end to their starvation.  

[Brisketexan 106898]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

How many corrupt regimes do we currently "finance"?

Such bizarre selectivity.

To be clear, I'm generally not in favor of financing any such regimes.  We did a lot of that stupid shit in the name of the Cold War and building "bulwarks against Communism," and it bought us and the people of those countries little but grief.

Wrong there.  Wrong here.

[Brisketexan 106898]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Literally fabricate an argument for your opponent and then smack it down. It's impressive to watch.

 

He pointed directly to the sanctions against trading in Venezuelan debt instruments, not me.  He asked if I supported them.  I said yes, and explained why.  Isn't that exactly what we're supposed to do?  Or was I supposed to just say "cuz reasons?"

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

So....wanting to NOT finance the corrupt Maduro regime (understanding that the "government" and the state-owned oil company are fronts for the regime and senior military officers)....that's....bad?  Okay.  

To be clear, you're advocating for a world where we could, instead, send, say $500 million to the regime as financing.....the regime could skim their take off of that (and it ain't gonna be a small take), use some smaller portion of that financing to buy food aid, which they would distribute to the masses as their savior, thus shoring up support and extending the life of the regime causing their suffering....followed by the bonus of a sovereign debt default once the crooks have fled with their money stashed somewhere else?

Yeah.  I'm against that.

I don't think the US government would be financing the Venezuelan government.  The EO greatly restricts the ability of US individuals and banks from entering into financial transactions with the PdVSA, which has had the effect of preventing Venezuela from restructuring their debt and contributed to the collapse in Venezuelan oil production.  This has cost Venezuela billions of dollars in a short period of time, and quite clearly has had a marked detrimental effect on the living standards of people in Venezuela. 

Imagine if the EU and China somehow sanctioned the US to such an extent that it cost the US somewhere around 5% of our GDP in little over a year.  How would that impact our society?  

[Brisketexan 106898]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

I don't think the US government would be financing the Venezuelan government.  The EO greatly restricts the ability of US individuals and banks from entering into financial transactions with the PdVSA, which has had the effect of preventing Venezuela from restructuring their debt and contributed to the collapse in Venezuelan oil production.  This has cost Venezuela billions of dollars in a short period of time, and quite clearly has had a marked detrimental effect on the living standards of people in Venezuela. 

Imagine if the EU and China somehow sanctioned the US to such an extent that it cost the US somewhere around 5% of our GDP in little over a year.  How would that impact our society?  

Let them get their financing elsewhere.  We do not, and should not, financially prop up the Maduro regime. It got itself into this shit, it can get itself out of it. Or not.

[Fozzz 152]

Lol so not actively trying to destroy the economy of other nations is apparently "propping" them up to you.  Propping them up would be public financing, which no one is talking about here.  I don't know why you have such a stake in hurting people who have done nothing to you.

[workswithseed 2204]

42 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

It has one of the highest GDPs/capita of any Latin American state.  

Doesn't mean much when a lot of the money that people get is from remittance and not from within your own country. I mean it doesn't directly go into gdp, but  $26.1 billion might put a nice dent into that GDP.

 

[Brisketexan 106898]

2 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Lol so not actively trying to destroy the economy of other nations is apparently "propping" them up to you.  Propping them up would be public financing, which no one is talking about here.  I don't know why you have such a stake in hurting people who have done nothing to you.

We don't want American institutions sending money to the Maduro regime.  That's it.  Full stop.  

And you know nothing about me, or my relationship and concern for the Venezuelan people.  I want their suffering to END.  Prolonging the Maduro regime will only prolong that suffering.

[workswithseed 2204]

You're lucky that you're not white, the might of called you racist and just ran with that.

[Fozzz 152]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We don't want American institutions sending money to the Maduro regime.  That's it.  Full stop.  

And you know nothing about me, or my relationship and concern for the Venezuelan people.  I want their suffering to END.  Prolonging the Maduro regime will only prolong that suffering.

You could have made similar arguments in support of our sanctions against Iraq in the 90s, and while as awful as Saddam was, the half a million or so kids we killed probably weren't a big fan of that move.  

[Brisketexan 106898]

4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

You could have made similar arguments in support of our sanctions against Iraq in the 90s, and while as awful as Saddam was, the half a million or so kids we killed probably weren't a big fan of that move.  

In Iraq, there was no organic, internal resistance to the regime.  There was no chance of regime change EVER happening via internal forces (even when it came to the war itself, I never believed the "they will greet us as liberators" bullshit - there were no facts to support that assertion).  So, those sanctions were pointless in pretty much every respect.  On that point, I am actually AGREEING with BT and folks like him -- I think that the primary impetus (and certainly the impetus in order for it to have long-term success) needs to come from the Venezuelan people themselves.

[F250 29201]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe this time will be different than every other time we intervene to forward American ideals around the world. 

[Fozzz 152]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

In Iraq, there was no organic, internal resistance to the regime.  There was no chance of regime change EVER happening via internal forces (even when it came to the war itself, I never believed the "they will greet us as liberators" bullshit - there were no facts to support that assertion).  So, those sanctions were pointless in pretty much every respect.  On that point, I am actually AGREEING with BT and folks like him -- I think that the primary impetus (and certainly the impetus in order for it to have long-term success) needs to come from the Venezuelan people themselves.

The only thing the sanctions are guaranteed to do is increase the suffering of the Venezuelans.  Everything else is bullshit.  It is economic warfare meant to destroy them.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Put some meat on that.  What does it look like?  I mean, OTHER than propping up the Maduro regime by providing them food aid that 1) they will take credit for, and 2) will use to alleviate the natural pressure building against the regime?  Might it look like....diplomacy?  Withholding recognition of a corrupt government, like numerous other countries, including almost all of its neighbors, have done?

Likewise, you seem to extrapolate that I am advocating for the 101st to drop in and save the day.  You won't find such a position from me.

Fundamentally, you're willing do to nothing, EXCEPT things that, coincidentally I'm sure, will prop up the Maduro regime for even longer.

I don't loathe the regime because it's "socialist."  I loathe it because it's another corrupt authoritarian regime buttfucking its people.  You, on the other hand, want to give the regime a complete free pass, and actually alleviate pressure on it.  I'm sure that has NOTHING to do with political beliefs or affiliation.

I am kind of surprised we are going against Russia on this. Is this the first foreign policy position ever where Trump has opposed Putin?

[Fozzz 152]

When you are on the same side as Donald Trump, Mike Pompeo, and Elliot fucking Abrams, and at odds with progressive voices in this country (including Bernie and AOC), maybe you should rethink your position, Brisket.  

[Brisketexan 106898]

5 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

When you are on the same side as Donald Trump, Mike Pompeo, and Elliot fucking Abrams, and at odds with progressive voices in this country (including Bernie and AOC), maybe you should rethink your position, Brisket.  

I'm good.  Sun shines on a dog's ass, and all that.

I also like an Egg McMuffin now and then -- Trump ain't wrong about everything.

BUT, I might add.....when you find yourself on the side of a man who is happy to punish people who support the opposition by denying them food, you should rethink your position, Fozz.

[Fozzz 152]

44 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Doesn't mean much when a lot of the money that people get is from remittance and not from within your own country. I mean it doesn't directly go into gdp, but  $26.1 billion might put a nice dent into that GDP.

 

If you would like another example illustrating how fucking moronic the idea that nationalizing natural resources naturally leads to economic doom, then look at what has happened to Bolivia following Evo's nationalization of their hydrocarbon industry. 

Quote

Nationalization of the gas industry allowed the state a bigger role in determining the industry’s broader impact in Bolivia. The government renegotiated supply contracts with Brazil and Argentina, significantly raising the export price of gas and thus bringing them closer to a fair market value. With nationalization, local content commitments were suddenly a part of negotiations for gas industry contractors, consultation periods with local communities could be better enforced, and technological transfer agreements could be arranged to increase the benefits accrued to Bolivians. For example, in 2013, Morales inaugurated the country’s first natural gas liquids separation plant, as part of a program to increase the value-added of the gas industry in Bolivia, and thus the rents accrued from exploiting the country’s natural gas.

Higher revenues allowed the government to increase spending on social programs. Over 11 percent of the government’s revenues from the hydrocarbon sector are earmarked for universities, indigenous groups and the Renta Dignidad grant, a monthly payment to low-income residents over the age of 60 which has provided support for more than one million people. Overall, public spending on health, education, pensions and poverty alleviation programs rose 45 percent in real terms from 2005-2012. Although this increase did not keep pace with the fast growing economy, it helped lower poverty from 60.6 percent of the population to 43.4 percent over the same period (2005-2012), thus lifting about one million people out of poverty (from an initial population of 9.4 million).

In addition to spending on social programs and infrastructure, some of the resource earnings were directed to Bolivia’s Central Bank where they helped grow the country’s stock of international reserves. International reserves, mostly U.S. dollars, act as a buffer against external shocks, preventing balance of payments crises by ensuring an adequate supply of U.S. dollars for importers to exchange for local currency. In 2005, Bolivia’s international reserves could cover 6.9 months of imports, while in 2013 the country’s international reserves could cover 15.9 months.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/stephan-lefebvre-jeanette-bonifaz/lessons-from-bolivia-renationalising-hydrocarbon-indust

Speaking of Evo, here are his thoughts on the situation:

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Fozzz

[Brisketexan 106898]

8 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

If you would like another example illustrating how fucking moronic the idea that nationalizing natural resources naturally leads to economic doom, then look at what has happened to Bolivia following Evo's nationalization of their hydrocarbon industry. 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/stephan-lefebvre-jeanette-bonifaz/lessons-from-bolivia-renationalising-hydrocarbon-indust

Evo Morales?

The guy with a favorability rating of around 27%?

This Evo Morales?

Quote

What particularly bothers some are moves by Morales, using supporters in Congress and the judiciary, to consolidate power.

Although his own 2009 constitution set a limit of two five-year terms, Morales asked voters in a 2016 referendum to let him run again in 2019. When they said no, Morales convinced the Constitutional Court to let him anyway. The court, consisting of jurists nominated by Congressional allies, ruled that term limits are a violation of his “human rights.” 

Different country, same song.  Come to power, change the rules to hold onto power.  

Oh, and nationalizing natural resources doesn't always, inevitably lead to doom.  I agree.  But to pretend that human beings with power aren't motivated by more power, and won't take advantage of the situation to line their own corrupt pockets, is the height of delusion.  Whether your fat cat skimming off the wealth is an oil exec in Houston or a General in Caracas don't make a shit -- that money isn't going to the people.

And when you make stupid bets and overcommit on a commodity-based economy....then see the price of that commodity drop by half....you're gonna be fucked.

[Fozzz 152]

Maybe the US should try to destroy Bolivia next then?  Macron has an approval rating in the 20%s as well.  Maybe it's time for regime change there as well.

We may first need to stop “propping up” Bolivia first and block them from obtaining external financing so we can starve their children for a bit, something you would love. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Fozzz

[workswithseed 2204]

Poor Bolivia, if only they didn't lose to Chilé they wouldn't have been a land locked country.

[F250 29201]

2 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Cuba and Russia are propping up Maduro which is fine for Fozz and bad teammate; however, the US should betray our historic role as master of the Americas and not play any role in asserting American foreign policy interests in Venezuela. Y’all would neuter our role as a superpower in pursuing vital American interests which includes easing the suffering of the Venezuelan people by seeking a transition back to capitalism. Good editorial from the WSJ concerning the role our rivals are playing in propping up Maduro.

 

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The Venezuelan military holds the key to whether Mr. Maduro will step down peacefully. Common sense and reporting in the country suggest that a good part of the army is ready to side with the Venezuelan people. The rank and file have families who are also suffering the privation caused by nearly two decades of socialist rule.

Potomac Watch Podcast

Yet Cuba controls Mr. Maduro’s personal security detail and has built a counterintelligence network around the high command. Venezuela’s 1,000 or so flag officers operate in silos and are spied on by minders. An officer who sides with the opposition is putting his life and perhaps his family at risk. The head of the armed forces expressed support for Mr. Maduro on Thursday, but the real test may come if soldiers are ordered to fire on protesters or Venezuelans trying to protect Mr. Guaidó. 

Nations that want better for Venezuela should focus as much on Havana as Caracas. If civilized countries want to end the starvation and mass migration of Venezuelans, they have to convince the Cuban regime to back off. That means targeting Havana with diplomatic pressure, as well as sanctions such as travel restrictions and frozen bank accounts.

The Kremlin is also backing Mr. Maduro. Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said Thursday that if the U.S. didn’t stay out of Venezuela there “would be a catastrophic scenario that would shake the foundations of the development model we see in the Latin American region.” 

But Cuba is the imperial power in Caracas, not the U.S., and the only recent “development” in Venezuela has been malnutrition. Russia certainly wouldn’t mind a Syrian-style civil war in Venezuela that spread more chaos in the Americas and more opportunity to undermine democratic governments.

The U.S. must also protect its diplomatic personnel in Caracas. Mr. Maduro on Wednesday ordered Americans to leave the country within 72 hours, but Secretary of State Mike Pompeo replied that the U.S. now recognizes Mr. Guaidó as interim president and will not comply. The U.S. needs to make clear that if Mr. Maduro or his paramilitaries act against Americans, the Administration will hold Cuba responsible. Now that Venezuelans are risking their lives for democracy, free nations owe them support.

 

Weren't you a non-interventionist earlier this week? You were praising the new Trump GOP for ousting the neocons just a few days ago.

 

[bad_teammate 13523]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

To be clear, I'm generally not in favor of financing any such regimes.  We did a lot of that stupid shit in the name of the Cold War and building "bulwarks against Communism," and it bought us and the people of those countries little but grief.

Wrong there.  Wrong here.

So you support economic sanctions against, say... Israel and Saudi Arabia?

Quote

He pointed directly to the sanctions against trading in Venezuelan debt instruments, not me.  He asked if I supported them.  I said yes, and explained why.  Isn't that exactly what we're supposed to do?  Or was I supposed to just say "cuz reasons?"

 

You made up some bullshit about us just sending them hundreds of millions of dollars in cash, because your position here is so shitty you have to be straight-up dishonest in what you say and sound like Rush fucking Limbaugh.

And good fucking Christ, the idea of capital flight being something exclusively or even primarily associated with socialistic despots is a fucking laugh riot. If you're worried about the wealth of Venezuela fleeing, look at every god damned example of capital flight in Latin America's last two centuries and see how it always goes West through the god of the free market. But this is yet another vestige of your Republican rearing up and it is clinging on for dear life.

Read Chomsky for some basic bitch Latin America perspective. Smoke a blunt. Stop being a monster.

Quote

Oh, and nationalizing natural resources doesn't always, inevitably lead to doom.  I agree.  But to pretend that human beings with power aren't motivated by more power, and won't take advantage of the situation to line their own corrupt pockets, is the height of delusion.  Whether your fat cat skimming off the wealth is an oil exec in Houston or a General in Caracas don't make a shit -- that money isn't going to the people.

Cool... so what the fuck arguments are you trying to make again? lol Jesus

Edited January 26, 2019 by bad_teammate

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Weren't you a non-interventionist earlier this week? You were praising the new Trump GOP for ousting the neocons just a few days ago.

 

Did I advocate for the US to invade Venezuela? The answer is no. 

[David Dennison 19540]

So this all depends on who the military backs, correct?

[bad_teammate 13523]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So this all depends on who the military backs, correct?

That's how it works, yeah.

The head of the Venezuelan military called out Guaido's "I'm the president now!" stunt and specifically called it part of a US-instigated/backed coup.

We really, really need to stay the hell out of it as much as possible.

[Crusher 127]

25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

That's how it works, yeah.

The head of the Venezuelan military called out Guaido's "I'm the president now!" stunt and specifically called it part of a US-instigated/backed coup.

We really, really need to stay the hell out of it as much as possible.

Agree 100%. Both our military and our money.

[F250 29201]

4 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Did I advocate for the US to invade Venezuela? The answer is no. 

Military adventurism is not the definition of Neoconservatism and interventionism.

Earlier this week Icono celebrates Trump for being a noninterventionist and ridding the the GOP of neocons. Today the Trump administration appoints Elliot Abrams as the special envoy for Venezuelan affairs and Icono celebrates.

That don't make no sense.

[Bama Chick 28596]

It’s hard to be coherent when you’re hopped up on meth and have a dick in your ass.

Or so I’m told.