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Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

PittsburghTiger

By PittsburghTiger
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Huckleberry
Huckleberry

Listen, @bad_teammate, this is a complicated situation and I actually do see the logic in both sides of the end result positions. But that's a lot more complicated topic I don't have time for right no

Johnny Sack
Johnny Sack

In this thread surly libs blame the US for the failures of socialism.  

EuroHorn
EuroHorn
TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31184

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

Because Alfred de Zayas sounds furrin and probably likes soccer and tiny little scooters and drinking aperitifs and digestifs and sneaking a little Disaronno Originale into his tiny espressi until he's found drooling at his desk with "BBC Wuld Suhvice" prattling in the background so then he half-wakes up, staggers to his scooter, takes a swig of Ricard from the bottle stashed under the seat, and putts off to his boyfriend Ernst's performance exhibit of German Men Silently Weeping, where, desiring attention and belching liqueur, he provokes a furious row and then storms out, next seen two ancient Italian cities over,  kicking a gypsy who accused him of harboring Futurist Crypto-Ezra-Poundian views, outside a soccer stadium.

 

I mean, that's what I got from it.

 

You left out his affinity for Ophebia Quist-Arcton and her vocal fry.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's absolutely disgusting that we're going to increase the suffering of the Venezuelan people in an attempt to install an illegitimate, unelected "president" who we will immediately use as a client puppet.

What's your plan ?  

The nationalization of the countries varied industries didn't work.  You agree or disagree ?

Do we give aid to a gov't to help alleviate the suffering, which the gov't caused  ?

 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23375

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's absolutely disgusting that we're going to increase the suffering of the Venezuelan people in an attempt to install an illegitimate, unelected "president" who we will immediately use as a client puppet.

Can you imagine the outrage if we would have waged a facebook campaign with pictures of Maduro arm wrestling Satan?

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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's absolutely disgusting that we're going to increase the suffering of the Venezuelan people in an attempt to install an illegitimate, unelected "president" who we will immediately use as a client puppet.

The Venezuelan people are starving and would take a US puppet over the shit they have now. Other than Maduro’s political cronies, his regime has no base of popular support. We would be negligent in our role as the historically dominant force in the Americas if we did not try to help the Venezuelans get rid of Maduro with everything we have other than using our troops. Amazes me how the left will bitch about the US using our diplomatic and economic heft to promote the American way of free market capitalism and democracy while agitating for sanctions against stalwart American allies like Gen Sisi in Egypt. Laughable shit. At least we Republicans are consistent. Order, security and capitalism with a window dressing concern for human rights and democracy.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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David Dennison

David Dennison 18606

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

The Venezuelan people are starving and would take a US puppet over the shit they have now. Other than Maduro’s political cronies, his regime has no base of popular support. We would be negligent in our role as the historically dominant force in the Americas if we did not try to help the Venezuelans get rid of Maduro with everything we have other than using our troops. Amazes me how the left will bitch about the US using our diplomatic and economic heft to promote the American way of free market capitalism and democracy while agitating for sanctions against stalwart American allies like Gen Sisi in Egypt. Laughable shit. At least we Republicans are consistent. Order, security and capitalism with a window dressing concern for human rights and democracy.

It's amazing that you believe we actually do that. Do you want to start listing the authoritarian regimes we support so long as it's in our national interest?

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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's amazing that you believe we actually do that. Do you want to start listing the authoritarian regimes we support so long as it's in our national interest?

1. Egypt

2. Saudi Arabia

3. Philippines

4. Hungary

5. Poland

6. Turkey

Shall I continue?

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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So you know we really don't care about democracy or free market capitalism if not doing so suits our interests.

Name me a country that is not capitalistic that we support that benefits our national interests. You can maybe make a claim that Saudi and the other oil rich sheikhdoms are semi-feudalistic. 

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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Trey3216

Trey3216 15325

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

oh wow who saw this coming!?!?!?

 

You know who was producing quite a bit of Venezuela's oil prior to Chavez/Maduro taking full control of the industry???  American/Int'l oil companies.  You know, when they were actually making money and feeding their people...

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

You know who was producing quite a bit of Venezuela's oil prior to Chavez/Maduro taking full control of the industry???  American/Int'l oil companies.  You know, when they were actually making money and feeding their people...

Who is the "they" in that final sentence? Certainly not the lower and middle classes who voted in Hugo Chavez with a strong majority in 2000. And then the failed coup attempt in 2002 which was greenlit by... Elliot Abrams.

But the crucial figure around the coup was Abrams, who operates in the White House as senior director of the National Security Council for 'democracy, human rights and international opera tions'. He was a leading theoretician of the school known as 'Hemispherism', which put a priority on combating Marxism in the Americas.

So we actively sought to overthrow the democratically-elected leader of Venezuela (who was overwhelmingly popular) at the behest of international oil interests.

No, the "they" in that sentence is the super-wealthy owners of multi-national oil companies. Not the Venezuelan people.

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Rimbo

Rimbo 25752

Posted
Posted

Wait just a damned minute.

Since when does anyone consider Maduro "democratically elected?" Y'all know his last election was a complete fraud, right? Y'all know that Venezuela is on the verge of being a failed state where everything is falling apart, right?

I'll be the first in line to piss on Trump's grave, but going against Maduro and recognizing his opponent... first off, we're not the only country doing this. Secondly, it's bad for Russia, so I'm genuinely surprised that Trump is going this route (or, more likely, someone who knows WTF he's doing is doing this without Trump/Kushner finding out about it). And third, this is something that needs to be done, preferably by the Venezuelan military itself, but by the UN if not, and by the US if all else fails.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

it's bad for Russia

How so? 

I get they’re losing on their initial investment but the goal of Russia isn’t stability.  It’s the opposite.  They want to create as many problems for the United States/West as possible.  By sucking up our attention and resources in the Western Hemisphere, it gives them more breathing room to make moves in their back yard.

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Fozzz

Fozzz 152

Posted
Posted

These simple minded folk just don’t know what’s best for em. 

According to a study conducted in early January 2019 by the local polling firm Hinterlaces, 86 percent of Venezuelans would disagree with international military intervention. And 81 percent oppose the US sanctions that have gravely hurt the South American nation’s economy

https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/01/29/venezuelans-oppose-intervention-us-sanctions-poll/

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Rimbo

Rimbo 25752

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

How so? 

I get they’re losing on their initial investment but the goal of Russia isn’t stability.  It’s the opposite.  They want to create as many problems for the United States/West as possible.  By sucking up our attention and resources in the Western Hemisphere, it gives them more breathing room to make moves in their back yard.

The military presence they were going to have there.

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6104

Posted
Posted

Venezuelans need our help. They are slowly starving to death. At this point we have to do whatever we can to help them. Thisnis not a political issue. This is a human beings need help from the most powerful nation on the planet. We cannot turn a blind eye to them line we have so often to other countries that needed help from us. Whatever has to be done just do it.

When we are at a point where the discussion is just political bullshit and not a human beings starving to death discussion I feel a bit sad for who we are as a country amd what our values are. Set aside the dumbass political stuff amd get behind helping a nation in our own hemisphere that needed us yesterday.

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6104

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

How so? 

I get they’re losing on their initial investment but the goal of Russia isn’t stability.  It’s the opposite.  They want to create as many problems for the United States/West as possible.  By sucking up our attention and resources in the Western Hemisphere, it gives them more breathing room to make moves in their back yard.

I don't give a damn how this relates to Russia and their love of destabilization. We need to help these people out. 

I don't care if Dotard is the one that has to do it. We all know someone has to tell him how to be a human being so whatever on that. Just get these folks what they need in order to survive. This is embarrassing to see that we as a country aren't fully behind helping out millions who are in desperate need of aid from us.

Edited by UpperWestside
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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I don't give a damn how this relates to Russia and ther love of destabilization. We need to help these people out. 

I don't care if Dotard is the one that has to do it. We all know someone has to tell him how to be a human being so whatever on that. Just get these folks what they need in order to survive. This is embarrassing to see that we as a country aren't fully behind helping out millions who are in desperate need of aid from us.

Most of America is with you but we couldn’t even save Puerto Rico when they needed us and they’re Americans.

Elections have consequences 

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6104

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Most of America is with you but we couldn’t even save Puerto Rico when they needed us and they’re Americans.

Elections have consequences 

One asshole stopped it. His party nodded in approval. That will never be forgotten. The Republican Party will eventually be swept into the dustbin of history. Put that black mark amongst the worst things they ever allowed to happen. 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Rimbo said:

Since when does anyone consider Maduro "democratically elected?" Y'all know his last election was a complete fraud, right? Y'all know that Venezuela is on the verge of being a failed state where everything is falling apart, right?

1) No one here thinks Maduro was democratically elected, at least in the last election (2018).

2) We are partially responsible for Venezuela falling apart as we have actively sabotaged their democracy for two decades (including greenlighting a failed coup in 2002 of their undoubtedly-democratically-elected-in-1998&2000 president Hugo Chavez).

We agree that Venezuela is on the verge of being a failed state where everything is falling apart. No one is denying that.

Quote

And third, this is something that needs to be done, preferably by the Venezuelan military itself, but by the UN if not, and by the US if all else fails.

Is history fake?

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4039

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Rimbo said:

but going against Maduro and recognizing his opponent

Guaido wasn't his opponent. He was not a candidate in that election. This would be like in the US if the Democrats arbitrarily declared that due to the Trump-Russia connection, Chuck Schumer is now the President. 

Edited by hpslugga
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted

There's some mechanism in the Constitution that would make Guiado the president based on his leadership of the assembly given the right circumstances, so it would be like Pelosi saying, "I'm president now!" after a whole bunch of foreign nations lined up against Trump and told Nancy that she had their backing.

However, it's just as stupid because there is no sincere democratic legitimacy to either man and, honestly, Guiado would be LESS legitimate if only because he would have only gotten there through international intrusion with the explicit, stated purpose of opening Venezuela up for robbery. Maduro won the 2018 election with good old fashioned local corruption.

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

Posted
Posted

Allegedly Maduro loading up 20% of Venezuela’s gold reserves and taking them to Russia. This is either hinting that he’s about to make a run for it or he is just outright stealing the money. If he is such a good leader then why does he feel that 20% of their gold is his to take? 

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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted (edited)

Excellent article today in the WSJ about Venezuela and how we are forcefully countering the malignant presence of Cuba and Iran in this hemisphere. I couldn’t agree more with John Bolton’s description of Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua as the “troika of tyranny”. Amen to Bolton for saying the following:

“The United States looks forward to watching each corner of the triangle fall: in Havana, in Caracas, in Managua,” the capital of Nicaragua, said John Bolton, national security adviser, in a November speech that unveiled the emerging strategy. He described the three countries as the “Troika of tyranny,” a phrase he coined, adding that the “Troika will crumble.” 

The US has vital interests in strangling the machinations of our enemies from extending their grip in the Americas. Unlike Obama’s disastrous naïveté, this Administration understands how to deal with Iran, Venezuela and Cuba. This is real foreign policy - not sending pallets of cash to the mullahs or appeasing Raul Castro in Cuba. Trump’s foreign policy and SC nominations are the best things about his Presidency. Reminds me of the greatness of Kissinger/Nixon realpolitik. 

Look at what our Islamic enemies are doing in South America. Bolton and Trump please continue to try to strangle the life out of Iran, Venezuela and Cuba so we can bring free markets and US friendly regimes in place.

“Part of why U.S. officials express concern about Iran’s influence in the region is that Iran is a major backer of Hezbollah, and its South American operations are a significant source of cash.

Mr. El Aissami, who ran Venezuela’s passport operations during the Chavez regime, issued thousands of new names and passports to Lebanese and Iranians, including operatives, the U.S. officials said. He allegedly made a deal with a top Hezbollah agent that its operatives would run money-laundering operations for the narco-trafficking empire, two former senior U.S. law-enforcement officials said.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-push-to-oust-venezuelas-maduro-marks-first-shot-in-plan-to-reshape-latin-america-11548888252?mod=hp_lead_pos8

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Allegedly Maduro loading up 20% of Venezuela’s gold reserves and taking them to Russia. This is either hinting that he’s about to make a run for it or he is just outright stealing the money. If he is such a good leader then why does he feel that 20% of their gold is his to take? 

CIA needs to make a move and engineer an assassination of Maduro through the use of proxies before that son of a bitch steals more of that country’s wealth 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4039

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

CIA needs to make a move and engineer an assassination of Maduro through the use of proxies before that son of a bitch steals more of that country’s wealth 

Yes because CIA interventions have worked so well for Latin Americans in the past.

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Maduro going full Yanukovych?

Where are you getting this?

Bloomberg

and we should absolutely not get the CIA involved. If true and maduro is going to steal the gold and run then that could be the lesson that the citizens need to understand that dictators like him should be ousted immediately and violently. You can’t give someone democracy, they have to realize that they need to demand it as people. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Bloomberg

and we should absolutely not get the CIA involved. If true and maduro is going to steal the gold and run then that could be the lesson that the citizens need to understand that dictators like him should be ousted immediately and violently. You can’t give someone democracy, they have to realize that they need to demand it as people. 

Yep burning your hand on a stove ain't necessarily a bad thing as a life lesson.  Problem is there isn't a doctor to help fix the burned hand down there, meaning the citizens have zero power to affect change unless they violently overthrow their current military backed gov't.

Why hasn't there been a successful change of power to a democratically elected style of gov't in the world since basically Japan ?  Has there been ??  

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

Posted
Posted (edited)

The problem is we aren’t exactly doctors, more like chiropractors who say we fix a problem but you’re going to need to keep coming in for the rest of your life. 

Sinple truth is that people are going to have to die. People are probably already close to, or actually, dying but they are dying of hunger and not of action.

When Syria was getting out of hand I read a study that said 5% of a population ACTIVELY revolting against a regime has always ended the control of the government. Venezuelans need to step up and die for their country if it is really as bad as we are to believe. Right now they are just dying for their dictator. If they die for their own personal liberty then every western nation in the world should be busting their balls to help them. 

I am kind of a guy who wants someone to prove their dedication to a cause before I invest in it. Without them learning a lesson and taking ownership of that core problem we would be back in their country within a generation. That only hurts our tax payers. 

Edited by Jhawk
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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Bloomberg

and we should absolutely not get the CIA involved. If true and maduro is going to steal the gold and run then that could be the lesson that the citizens need to understand that dictators like him should be ousted immediately and violently. You can’t give someone democracy, they have to realize that they need to demand it as people. 

Lol that gold is going straight to Putin. Maduro is a dead man walking.

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