Things Not Going Well in Venezuela, 2.0

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

26 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Why hasn't there been a successful change of power to a democratically elected style of gov't in the world since basically Japan ?  Has there been ??  

South Korea 

There’s also been some success stories in Africa with democracy 

[hpslugga 4039]

44 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Bloomberg

and we should absolutely not get the CIA involved. If true and maduro is going to steal the gold and run then that could be the lesson that the citizens need to understand that dictators like him should be ousted immediately and violently. You can’t give someone democracy, they have to realize that they need to demand it as people. 

Well democracy promotion has never been an interest of the CIA. They act at the behest of the Executive Branch, who again if you'll just look a bit up the thread, are openly admitting that their end game is to re-assert American corporate interests in control of Venezuela's oil reserves. Whatever our concern for Venezuela is, it is not for common Venezuelans and it's not for promoting democracy. Those are just pretexts that are offered to mobilize popular opinion in the United States. The timing of this whole thing has a very "wouldn't you know who won the pony?" stench to it because this is just in the wake of Trump caving to the Democrats on the wall issue.

That's what Republican presidents, in particular, typically do when their domestic policies blow to shit: they let the tail wag the dog and wage some phony "war" and try to frame it as a national security issue.

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by hpslugga

[bad_teammate 13125]

SUCCESS!

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

9 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

South Korea 

There’s also been some success stories in Africa with democracy 

Yeah forgot about SK, and moderate success in Africa, but I think they're always a one strong man away from toppling in so many of those places.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Japan and Korea are the two most successful examples. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

16 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

South Korea 

There’s also been some success stories in Africa with democracy 

What about some of the old Eastern block states. Georgia, Poland, Ukraine till now of course.  We had a hand in their conversion thru the fall of the Soviet Union

[elfenix 34168]

taiwan, sometime between 1975 and 2005.  maybe 1991.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

taiwan, sometime between 1975 and 2005.  maybe 1991.

Cool so we're up to like .001% success rate so far in the meddling.  Again, an eastern culture.  probably the 3 best examples so far, Japan, SK and Taiwan.

[Jhawk 1075]

There aren't a lot of people on this thread calling for intervention.  There are a lot more people saying that people are calling for intervention.  Most people in this thread that think Maduro has to go aren't advocating for anything with the US actively trying to topple him (boots on ground/CIA).  The US has taken the same position as many other countries have.  Maduro's clock is ticking and it is wholly his own doing.

[bad_teammate 13125]

Boots on the ground is the only thing that is considered "intervention". lol ok sure

[Jhawk 1075]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Boots on the ground is the only thing that is considered "intervention". lol ok sure

We sanctioned their oil.  Big deal.  We have sanctions on half the countries on the planet or companies within those countries and no one is accusing us of intervening in an effort to topple a government.

[elfenix 34168]

Just now, Jhawk said:

We sanctioned their oil.  Big deal.  We have sanctions on half the countries on the planet or companies within those countries and no one is accusing us of intervening in an effort to topple a government.

which is why we colonize protectorate intervene sanction in order to protect democracy, it's totally not about serving our own imperial interests, not at all

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, elfenix said:

which is why we colonize protectorate intervene sanction in order to protect democracy, it's totally not about serving our own imperial interests, not at all

What country ever acts in anything less than its own interests (SEE: Vatican City as a shining example of always looking out for its own) ??

[elfenix 34168]

9 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

What country ever acts in anything less than its own interests (SEE: Vatican City as a shining example of always looking out for its own) ??

none.  but the US is this weird place where we can't admit that we're not a shining city on a hill, so we have to tell ourselves that we're declaring war on spain and taking all of its colonies and adding them to our own empire without the consent of the governed while killing plenty of them in order to protect the people we're killing.  not for the benefit of United Fruit.  or Conoco.

Edited January 31, 2019 by elfenix

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

none.  but the US is this weird place where we can't admit that we're not a shining city on a hill, so we have to tell ourselves that we're declaring war on spain and taking all of its colonies and adding them to our own empire without the consent of the governed while killing plenty of them in order to protect the people we're killing.  not for the benefit of US Fruit.

All true, but as horrible countries go, we do a lions share of giving around the globe.  Ain't no way that's all in self interest. 

What's the alternative to a world without an American super power ?  I've said it before, we're the modern day Roman empire.

[elfenix 34168]

8 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

All true, but as horrible countries go, we do a lions share of giving around the globe.  Ain't no way that's all in self interest. 

What's the alternative to a world without an American super power ?  I've said it before, we're the modern day Roman empire.

no one is saying the american middle class is stingy with its charity dollars.  that's different from american leadership's empire building.

dan carlin summarizes america's duality with empire in the american peril episode.  interesting listen.

Edited January 31, 2019 by elfenix

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

no one is saying the american middle class is stingy with its charity dollars.  that's different from american leadership's empire building.

I'm not talking about charity, I'm talking about the billions in aid the gov't gives (which I think should be spent at home first).  That could be to keep the barbarians at bay, and it could be just humanitarian aid for the sake of aid, but I'm optimistic at times when I shouldn't be.

[hpslugga 4039]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

we do a lions share of giving around the globe.  

Relative to GDP, we do not. That's kinda important, actually.

 

[elfenix 34168]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm not talking about charity, I'm talking about the billions in aid the gov't gives (which I think should be spent at home first).  That could be to keep the barbarians at bay, and it could be just humanitarian aid for the sake of aid, but I'm optimistic at times when I shouldn't be.

a) empire upkeep is self-interested.

b) lots, and i'd imagine the vast majority, of US government aid is being spent at home.  we're not handing people bags of cash.  we're buying f-15s from boeing.

Edited January 31, 2019 by elfenix

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, elfenix said:

a) that's empire upkeep.

b) lots, and i'd imagine the vast majority, of US government aid is being spent at home.  we're not just handing people bags of cash.  we're buying f-15s from boeing.

A. Yep pretty much.

B ?  Yeah we send billions over seas for humanitarian aid that's not an F-18. Never said it was in bags of cash.  If we're spending that much here, it's not showing or working.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

This is the NYT piece by the new President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó. I can’t comprehend how bad teammate, Fozz, hpslugga and Hugo can complain about our actions in recognizing Pres. Guaidó as the interim president which is authorized by the Venezuelan Constitution. Virtually every country in the Western Hemisphere is acting in concert with what we have done. To be opposed to relieving the suffering of the Venezuelan people is deranged and heartless. You all hate Trump so badly that his actions here which the progressive Trudeau of Canada also supports makes y’all seem truly deranged. Anything to change the status quo of starving Venezuelans should be supported. I am excited for the Venezuelan people as they have a realistic shot in liberating their country. I hope I’m alive to see the day that Iran is liberated with US support. Elliot Abrams knows what he is doing. With him and Bolton we have guys who can help effectuate regime change and fulfill our role as the defender of the Americas by promoting free markets and democracy 

CARACAS, Venezuela — On Jan. 23, 61 years after the vicious dictator Marcos Pérez Jiménez was ousted, Venezuelans once again gathered for a day of democratic celebration. 

Pérez Jiménez was fraudulently elected by a Constituent Assembly in 1953. His term of office was scheduled to expire in 1958. But rather than calling for free and transparent presidential elections, he was undemocratically re-elected after holding a plebiscite on his administration late in 1957. Following widespread protests and a rupture within the military establishment, the dictator left the country and Venezuela regained its freedom on Jan. 23, 1958.

Once again we face the challenge of restoring our democracy and rebuilding the country, this time amid a humanitarian crisis and the illegal retention of the presidency by Nicolás Maduro. There are severe medicine and food shortages, essential infrastructure and health systems have collapsed, a growing number of children are suffering from malnutrition, and previously eradicated illnesses have re-emerged. 

We have one of the highest homicide rates in the world, which is aggravated by the government’s brutal crackdown on protesters. This tragedy has prompted the largest exodus in Latin American history, with three million Venezuelans now living abroad.

I would like to be clear about the situation in Venezuela: Mr. Maduro’s re-election on May 20, 2018, was illegitimate, as has since been acknowledged by a large part of the international community. His original six-year term was set to end on Jan. 10. By continuing to stay in office, Nicolás Maduro is usurping the presidency. 

My ascension as interim president is based on Article 233 of the Venezuelan Constitution, according to which, if at the outset of a new term there is no elected head of state, power is vested in the president of the National Assembly until free and transparent elections take place. This is why the oath I took on Jan. 23 cannot be considered a “self-proclamation.” It was not of my own accord that I assumed the function of president that day, but in adherence to the Constitution.

I was 15 when Hugo Chávez came to power in 1998. At the time I lived in Vargas State, which borders the Caribbean. In 1999 torrential rains caused flash floods that left thousands of people dead. I lost several friends, and my school was buried in the mudslide. 

The importance of resilience has been etched into my soul ever since. Both of my grandfathers served in the armed forces and they instilled a strong work ethic in their children that helped my family recover from those devastating floods. I saw that if I wanted a better future for my country I had to roll up my sleeves and give my life to public service. 

When it became clear that under Chávez the country was drifting toward totalitarianism, I joined the student movement, which played a crucial role in delivering him a decisive loss on a referendum in 2007 that would have granted him sweeping powers. I became involved in local politics and was elected to serve as a deputy representing Vargas State in the National Assembly in 2015.

That same generation of brothers and sisters from my student movement days stands alongside me today, as Venezuelans from across the political spectrum are joining in an effort to re-establish democracy. It is incumbent on us to reinstate normality, in order to build the advanced and prosperous country of which we all dream. 

But first we must recover our freedom. 

The struggle for freedom has been part of our DNA ever since independence was achieved in Latin America 200 years ago. In this century we have taken to the streets repeatedly, knowing that not only is the survival of our democracy at stake, but the very fate of our nation.

A pattern has developed under the Maduro regime. When pressure builds, the first recourse is to repress and persecute. I know this because buckshot pellets fired by members of the armed forces — at peaceful protesters in 2017 — remain lodged in my own body. A minor price to pay compared to the sacrifices made by some of my compatriots. 

Under Mr. Maduro at least 240 Venezuelans have been murdered at marches, and there are 600 political prisoners, including the founder of my party, Leopoldo López, who has been a prisoner for five years. When repressive tactics prove futile, Mr. Maduro and his henchmen disingenuously propose “dialogue.” But we have become immune to such manipulation. There are no more stunts left for them to pull. The usurpation of power was their only remaining option. 

Given that the Maduro regime cannot legitimately retain power, our response is threefold: First, to shore up the National Assembly as the last bastion of democracy; second, to consolidate the support of the international community, especially the Lima Group, the Organization of American States, the United States and the European Union; and third, to address the people, on the basis that they have a right to self-determination. 

Over 50 countries have recognized either me as interim president or the National Assembly as the legitimate authority in Venezuela. I have appealed to António Guterres, the United Nations Secretary General, as well as to several humanitarian agencies, for support in easing the humanitarian crisis. I have begun the process of appointing ambassadors and locating and recovering national assets tied up abroad.

There is a broad consensus among Venezuelans in favor of change: 84 percent of our people reject Mr. Maduro’s rule. We have, therefore, been holding town halls across the country so people can talk openly about the moment in which we find ourselves, and about our future.

Among opposition politicians, we have come up with three strategic points of agreement as part of our road map to democracy: an end to the usurpation; a transitional government; and free elections.

The transition will require support from key military contingents. We have had clandestine meetings with members of the armed forces and the security forces. We have offered amnesty to all those who are found not guilty of crimes against humanity. The military’s withdrawal of support from Mr. Maduro is crucial to enabling a change in government, and the majority of those in service agree that the country’s recent travails are untenable.

Mr. Maduro no longer has the support of the people. Last week in Caracas, citizens from the poorest neighborhoods that had been Chavista strongholds in the past took to the streets in unprecedented protests. They went out again on Jan. 23 with the full knowledge that they might be brutally repressed, and they continue to attend town hall meetings.

Mr. Maduro’s time is running out, but in order to manage his exit with the minimum of bloodshed, all of Venezuela must unite in pushing for a definitive end to his regime. For that, we need the support of pro-democratic governments, institutions and individuals the world over. It is imperative that we find effective solutions for the grave humanitarian crisis we are suffering, just as it is to go on building a path toward understanding and reconciliation.

Our strength, and the salvation of all Venezuela, is in unity.

Juan Guaidó is the president of the Venezuelan National Assembly and an opposition leader. This essay was translated from the Spanish by Thomas Bunstead.

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.

[F250 28659]

6 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Elliot Abrams knows what he is doing. With him and Bolton we have guys who can help effectuate regime change and fulfill our role as the defender of the Americas by promoting free markets and democracy  

Looks like PNAC is getting the band back together.

[Fozzz 152]

Here is the Article of Venezuela's Constitution on which Guaidó bases his claim:

Quote

The President of the Republic shall become permanently unavailable to serve by reason of any of the following events: death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with the approval of the National Assembly; abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote.

When an elected President becomes permanently unavailable to serve prior to his inauguration, a new election by universal suffrage and direct ballot shall be held within 30 consecutive days. Pending election and inauguration of the new President, the President of the National Assembly shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic.

When the President of the Republic becomes permanently unavailable to serve during the first four years of this constitutional term of office, a new election by universal suffrage and direct ballot shall be held within 30 consecutive days. Pending election and inauguration of the new President, the Executive Vice-President shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic.

In the cases describes above, the new President shall complete the current constitutional term of office. If the President becomes permanently unavailable to serve during the last two years of his constitutional term of office, the Executive Vice-President shall take over the Presidency of the Republic until such term is completed. 

http://venezuela-us.org/live/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/constitucioningles.pdf

Maduro was inagurated on January 10, so, even if the National Assembly declared that Maduro has abandoned his position (i'm not aware that this has actually happened), it would be the Executive Vice-President who would take charge, not Guaidó.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Fozzz

[Brian Fantana 6654]

38 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

This is the NYT piece by the new President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó. I can’t comprehend how bad teammate, Fozz, hpslugga and Hugo can complain about our actions in recognizing Pres. Guaidó as the interim president which is authorized by the Venezuelan Constitution. Virtually every country in the Western Hemisphere is acting in concert with what we have done. To be opposed to relieving the suffering of the Venezuelan people is deranged and heartless. You all hate Trump so badly that his actions here which the progressive Trudeau of Canada also supports makes y’all seem truly deranged. Anything to change the status quo of starving Venezuelans should be supported. I am excited for the Venezuelan people as they have a realistic shot in liberating their country. I hope I’m alive to see the day that Iran is liberated with US support. Elliot Abrams knows what he is doing. With him and Bolton we have guys who can help effectuate regime change and fulfill our role as the defender of the Americas by promoting free markets and democracy 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

CARACAS, Venezuela — On Jan. 23, 61 years after the vicious dictator Marcos Pérez Jiménez was ousted, Venezuelans once again gathered for a day of democratic celebration. 

Pérez Jiménez was fraudulently elected by a Constituent Assembly in 1953. His term of office was scheduled to expire in 1958. But rather than calling for free and transparent presidential elections, he was undemocratically re-elected after holding a plebiscite on his administration late in 1957. Following widespread protests and a rupture within the military establishment, the dictator left the country and Venezuela regained its freedom on Jan. 23, 1958.

Once again we face the challenge of restoring our democracy and rebuilding the country, this time amid a humanitarian crisis and the illegal retention of the presidency by Nicolás Maduro. There are severe medicine and food shortages, essential infrastructure and health systems have collapsed, a growing number of children are suffering from malnutrition, and previously eradicated illnesses have re-emerged. 

We have one of the highest homicide rates in the world, which is aggravated by the government’s brutal crackdown on protesters. This tragedy has prompted the largest exodus in Latin American history, with three million Venezuelans now living abroad.

I would like to be clear about the situation in Venezuela: Mr. Maduro’s re-election on May 20, 2018, was illegitimate, as has since been acknowledged by a large part of the international community. His original six-year term was set to end on Jan. 10. By continuing to stay in office, Nicolás Maduro is usurping the presidency. 

My ascension as interim president is based on Article 233 of the Venezuelan Constitution, according to which, if at the outset of a new term there is no elected head of state, power is vested in the president of the National Assembly until free and transparent elections take place. This is why the oath I took on Jan. 23 cannot be considered a “self-proclamation.” It was not of my own accord that I assumed the function of president that day, but in adherence to the Constitution.

I was 15 when Hugo Chávez came to power in 1998. At the time I lived in Vargas State, which borders the Caribbean. In 1999 torrential rains caused flash floods that left thousands of people dead. I lost several friends, and my school was buried in the mudslide. 

The importance of resilience has been etched into my soul ever since. Both of my grandfathers served in the armed forces and they instilled a strong work ethic in their children that helped my family recover from those devastating floods. I saw that if I wanted a better future for my country I had to roll up my sleeves and give my life to public service. 

When it became clear that under Chávez the country was drifting toward totalitarianism, I joined the student movement, which played a crucial role in delivering him a decisive loss on a referendum in 2007 that would have granted him sweeping powers. I became involved in local politics and was elected to serve as a deputy representing Vargas State in the National Assembly in 2015.

That same generation of brothers and sisters from my student movement days stands alongside me today, as Venezuelans from across the political spectrum are joining in an effort to re-establish democracy. It is incumbent on us to reinstate normality, in order to build the advanced and prosperous country of which we all dream. 

But first we must recover our freedom. 

The struggle for freedom has been part of our DNA ever since independence was achieved in Latin America 200 years ago. In this century we have taken to the streets repeatedly, knowing that not only is the survival of our democracy at stake, but the very fate of our nation.

A pattern has developed under the Maduro regime. When pressure builds, the first recourse is to repress and persecute. I know this because buckshot pellets fired by members of the armed forces — at peaceful protesters in 2017 — remain lodged in my own body. A minor price to pay compared to the sacrifices made by some of my compatriots. 

Under Mr. Maduro at least 240 Venezuelans have been murdered at marches, and there are 600 political prisoners, including the founder of my party, Leopoldo López, who has been a prisoner for five years. When repressive tactics prove futile, Mr. Maduro and his henchmen disingenuously propose “dialogue.” But we have become immune to such manipulation. There are no more stunts left for them to pull. The usurpation of power was their only remaining option. 

Given that the Maduro regime cannot legitimately retain power, our response is threefold: First, to shore up the National Assembly as the last bastion of democracy; second, to consolidate the support of the international community, especially the Lima Group, the Organization of American States, the United States and the European Union; and third, to address the people, on the basis that they have a right to self-determination. 

Over 50 countries have recognized either me as interim president or the National Assembly as the legitimate authority in Venezuela. I have appealed to António Guterres, the United Nations Secretary General, as well as to several humanitarian agencies, for support in easing the humanitarian crisis. I have begun the process of appointing ambassadors and locating and recovering national assets tied up abroad.

There is a broad consensus among Venezuelans in favor of change: 84 percent of our people reject Mr. Maduro’s rule. We have, therefore, been holding town halls across the country so people can talk openly about the moment in which we find ourselves, and about our future.

Among opposition politicians, we have come up with three strategic points of agreement as part of our road map to democracy: an end to the usurpation; a transitional government; and free elections.

The transition will require support from key military contingents. We have had clandestine meetings with members of the armed forces and the security forces. We have offered amnesty to all those who are found not guilty of crimes against humanity. The military’s withdrawal of support from Mr. Maduro is crucial to enabling a change in government, and the majority of those in service agree that the country’s recent travails are untenable.

Mr. Maduro no longer has the support of the people. Last week in Caracas, citizens from the poorest neighborhoods that had been Chavista strongholds in the past took to the streets in unprecedented protests. They went out again on Jan. 23 with the full knowledge that they might be brutally repressed, and they continue to attend town hall meetings.

Mr. Maduro’s time is running out, but in order to manage his exit with the minimum of bloodshed, all of Venezuela must unite in pushing for a definitive end to his regime. For that, we need the support of pro-democratic governments, institutions and individuals the world over. It is imperative that we find effective solutions for the grave humanitarian crisis we are suffering, just as it is to go on building a path toward understanding and reconciliation.

Our strength, and the salvation of all Venezuela, is in unity.

Juan Guaidó is the president of the Venezuelan National Assembly and an opposition leader. This essay was translated from the Spanish by Thomas Bunstead.

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.

 

Seriously how much fucking meth do you have to smoke before you become this fucking stupid?

[GHOSTUSER 361]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Seriously how much fucking meth do you have to smoke before you become this fucking stupid?

Care to retort you fucking moron. I have a coherent world view. What the fuck is yours .

[elfenix 34168]

4 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Care to retort you fucking moron. I have a coherent world view. What the fuck is yours .

your world view is that the US should meddle in internal iranian affairs to get rid of the mullahs when it was US meddling in internal iranian affairs that brought you the fucking mullahs to begin with.  how the fuck does that make sense?  US meddling brought you the mullahs and british meddling brought you the saudis.  that's a great fucking track record.

Edited January 31, 2019 by elfenix

[bad_teammate 13125]

55 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Anything to change the status quo of starving Venezuelans should be supported.

What if we lifted all economic sanctions against Venezuela right now and normalized relations with them as much as possible?

Do you really mean "anything" or do you actually mean, "Open Venezuela back up for exploitation"?

[GHOSTUSER 361]

7 minutes ago, elfenix said:

your world view is that the US should meddle in internal iranian affairs to get rid of the mullahs when it was US meddling in internal iranian affairs that brought you the fucking mullahs to begin with.  how the fuck does that make sense?  US meddling brought you the mullahs and british meddling brought you the saudis.  that's a great fucking track record.

Our ability to meddle into the affairs of Iran under mullah control are a lot different than 1953 Iran with Mossadegh. No doubt engineering a coup against him was a mistake in hindsight. Iran was the first Islamist government to come to power in the world. It was a wildcard not foreseen in 1953 in the middle of the Cold War with 2 opposing worlds going at it. We can apply economic pressure on Iran and try to influence a change through our soft power. As for the British, what was the alternative besides the al-Saud family in the Arabian peninsula? From a geopolitical perspective, Saudi rule has been stable and has allowed for reliable source of hydrocarbon production.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[hpslugga 4039]

12 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I have a coherent world view.

 

[CO Horn 154]

5 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Our ability to meddle into the affairs of Iran under mullah control are a lot different than 1953 Iran with Mossadegh. No doubt engineering a coup against him was a mistake in hindsight. Iran was the first Islamist government to come to power in the world. It was a wildcard not foreseen in 1953 in the middle of the Cold War with 2 opposing worlds going at it. We can apply economic pressure on Iran and try to influence a change through our soft power. As for the British, what was the alternative besides the al-Saud family in the Arabian peninsula? From a geopolitical perspective, Saudi rule has been stable and has allowed for reliable source of hydrocarbon production.

Say what?  What are the Saudis? Baptists?

[GHOSTUSER 361]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What if we lifted all economic sanctions against Venezuela right now and normalized relations with them as much as possible?

Do you really mean "anything" or do you actually mean, "Open Venezuela back up for exploitation"?

That’s not a realistic course of action under any US President. Hillary or Obama wouldn’t do that. I don’t get why you would hamstring your country in pursuing its national interests when every other country in the world is trying to further theirs vis a vis nations of interest. A socialist dictatorship in Venezuela is one that is antithetical to America as the vanguard of liberal democracy and free markets. We have never had normal relationships with a country like that, witness our position with Cuba, especially if it is in our own hemisphere. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

There are zero winning moves in Venezuela for the United States.  There are things we can do to ease the pain like take in refugees and offer aid.

The Venezuelan people need to determine their own fate and if that means a bloody civil war so be it.  As history has shown, only true revolutions provide the best path to long term stability. 

[Rimbo 25752]

17 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I suppose but it almost seems like it would be a waste of resources.  

For whom? The fact that Russia backs Maduro should tell you all you need about what side we're on. The fact that Trump is calling out his own intelligence community as "naive"...

 

...heh, heh, heh. That's fucking chutzpah, isn't it? The goddamned ignoramus doesn't even know what the damned word means.

Unless you're thinking this is a Clone Wars-era deal where Trump is Dooku and Putin is Palpatine and they're working both ends to squeeze the middle or something. I can see Putin smart enough to do that, but I don't see Trump as being smart enough to pull off the Dooku role.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

I don’t think Putin values Venezuela that much, at least not like Syria or Iran.

Seems like he helped orchestrate a disaster and wants to cash out before sinking serious resources to clean it up.  Russia is still a relatively weak state when it comes to flexing those military hegemony muscles on a global scale.  

 

[Rimbo 25752]

And by the way, fuck all of you who have me agreeing with Iconoclast Texan.

I'm well aware of the USA's history in South America. What you need to understand is that South America has had these problems with or without USA intervention.

Interventionist policy is not always a bad thing. I'm not saying we should send in troops or use covert CIA ops. But what we're doing with Venezuela mirrors what countries who still have grown-ups in charge are also doing. And it's pretty obvious to me that the State Department is likely doing this while Trumps' back is turned. 

I mean... do any of y'all who are getting antsy about this even know anyone from Venezuela, or with family there right now? Do you realize what's going on there?

Also, you should read up:

 

[Brian Fantana 6654]

18 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

There are zero winning moves in Venezuela for the United States.  There are things we can do to ease the pain like take in refugees and offer aid.

The Venezuelan people need to determine their own fate and if that means a bloody civil war so be it.  As history has shown, only true revolutions provide the best path to long term stability. 

No dude interventionism is the way to go, despite our abysmal track record with it. 150th time's a charm!

[TwiceHorn 31184]

23 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

There are zero winning moves in Venezuela for the United States.  There are things we can do to ease the pain like take in refugees and offer aid.

The Venezuelan people need to determine their own fate and if that means a bloody civil war so be it.  As history has shown, only true revolutions provide the best path to long term stability. 

Si, senor.  Ingobiernable.

I think the sad reality is that most Central and South American countries, like Russia, are going to cycle through governments that turn totalitarian (if they arent established that way), with associated economic instability as natural resources similarly whipsaw between national and semi-private ownership, for a good long while.  The American contributions to those cycles, while certainly regrettable, may have been fairly inevitable, with or without US intervention.

Edited January 31, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[InkaUtexas 25426]

37 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

There are zero winning moves in Venezuela for the United States.  There are things we can do to ease the pain like take in refugees and offer aid.

The Venezuelan people need to determine their own fate and if that means a bloody civil war so be it.  As history has shown, only true revolutions provide the best path to long term stability. 

Agree 100%, but if there is a war, it needs to be allowed to play out instead of a fake peace with no real winner. 

That said, if there was a war I do not think Colombia would sit idly by. 

[Fozzz 152]

2 hours ago, Jhawk said:

We sanctioned their oil.  Big deal.  We have sanctions on half the countries on the planet or companies within those countries and no one is accusing us of intervening in an effort to topple a government.

They may not be a big deal if you believe killing Venezuelans isn't a big deal.

Quote

The effects of sanctions imposed by Presidents Obama and Trump and unilateral measures by Canada and the European Union have directly and indirectly aggravated the shortages in medicines such as insulin and anti-retroviral drugs. To the extent that economic sanctions have caused delays in distribution and thus contributed to many deaths, sanctions contravene the human rights obligations of the countries imposing them.  Moreover, sanctions can amount to crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. An investigation by that Court would be appropriate, but the geopolitical submissiveness of the Court may prevent this

https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G18/239/31/pdf/G1823931.pdf?OpenElement

[Jhawk 1075]

8 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

They may not be a big deal if you believe killing Venezuelans isn't a big deal.

https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G18/239/31/pdf/G1823931.pdf?OpenElement

Who killed them first?  Maduro started the madness.  Now his sympathizers want to blame the sanctions that were just placed on oil on the problems that have been culminating for years.  Sounds legit.

[Fozzz 152]

 

1 minute ago, Jhawk said:

Who killed them first?  Maduro started the madness.  Now his sympathizers want to blame the sanctions that were just placed on oil on the problems that have been culminating for years.  Sounds legit.

Well, shit.  I guess you can sore it - 

UN Human Rights Council: 0

Internet messageboard poster Jhawk: 1

[Brian Fantana 6654]

14 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Who killed them first?  Maduro started the madness.  Now his sympathizers want to blame the sanctions that were just placed on oil on the problems that have been culminating for years.  Sounds legit.

Dear god man, stick to the basketball forum.

[hpslugga 4039]

2 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

This is the NYT piece by the new President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó. I can’t comprehend how bad teammate, Fozz, hpslugga and Hugo can complain about our actions in recognizing Pres. Guaidó as the interim president which is authorized by the Venezuelan Constitution.

You think this is just about recognizing Guaido. It's not. Again, the Americans are already revealing their intention to re-establish dominance of Venezuelan oil reserves, which is in stark contradiction to the wishes of their people who supported Chavez' move to nationalization by a factor of around 95% (and are still strongly in favor of it on principle). Venezuelans are also overwhelmingly against American intervention on this issue, and there isn't a goddamned thing that you can do or say that's going to change that reality. You think that we want to get in on this in some sort of benign, humanitarian capacity and that's a fucking joke, just like it was a fucking joke when we tried it and failed in 2002. That has fuck all to do with "recognizing Pres. Guaido," that has to do with not trusting a single syllable from anyone in the Executive Branch on these issues even if their fucking tongues were notarized, and that's even been true of Democratic administrations, so fuck off with that pissy-assed bullshit about this being about contradicting Trump.

Quote

Virtually every country in the Western Hemisphere is acting in concert with what we have done.

And of those countries, how many are calling for the US to intervene? You're once again conflating two different issues, and you do it so readily because you're dishonest.

Quote

To be opposed to relieving the suffering of the Venezuelan people is deranged and heartless.

No one is opposed to that. That's just you lying again.

Quote

You all hate Trump so badly that his actions here which the progressive Trudeau of Canada also supports makes y’all seem truly deranged.

This isn't about "hating Trump." That's just you lying again.

This is why I say that I think your recent schtick here has been nothing more than a trollish ruse and that there's no possible way you could believe a single syllable of what you type: because I can't even say that what you say is wrong. It's actually less than wrong. At this point, you're either trolling or you've suffered a massive brain injury recently.

Quote

Anything to change the status quo of starving Venezuelans should be supported. I am excited for the Venezuelan people as they have a realistic shot in liberating their country.

They'll have no such shot if Bolton, Trump, the CIA, et al get involved, and that's the course of action you support. You are lying again.

Quote

I hope I’m alive to see the day that Iran is liberated with US support.

Iran was liberated once in the 20th century and the US was adamantly opposed to it. And it wasn't about "hindsight," either. Their opposition to Mossadegh was fundamentally wrong and immoral from the very outset, and they knew it. Why else do you think a priority of the CIA was to, among other things, disseminate "black propaganda" about him and his mythological "alliance" with the Tudeh Party? You're lying again.

Quote

Elliot Abrams knows what he is doing.

He does. It's just that he's not doing what you think he's doing. He's a war criminal, not a humanitarian. The idea that Elliott fucking Abrams, the guy who once said that "the purpose of U.S. aid is to permit people who are fighting on our side to use more violence" in a case where the US was convicted of what the ICJ called "unlawful use of force," is some sort of bleeding-hearted humanitarian is a flat out fraud. He's Exhibit A of what it is to be a hoodlum, hooligan and a racketeer. You think he's a hero. That speaks either to your prowess at trolling or to your ignorance, and I couldn't care less which one is the case.

Quote

With him and Bolton we have guys who can help effectuate regime change and fulfill our role as the defender of the Americas by promoting free markets and democracy 

We've never promoted democracy in the Americas. Ever. That's just you lying again.

That entire screed you just posted is nothing more than an embarrassingly shallow and pedantic Gish Gallop and an astonishing display of what I accused you of earlier: this is pure, 100% Dunning-Kruger effect. You claim to have a "coherent world view," yet every single syllable you post is laughably wrong.

Edited January 31, 2019 by hpslugga

[bad_teammate 13125]

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

I'm well aware of the USA's history in South America. What you need to understand is that South America has had these problems with or without USA intervention.

White Man's Burden, 2019

Quote

I mean... do any of y'all who are getting antsy about this even know anyone from Venezuela, or with family there right now? Do you realize what's going on there?

There is an rampant malnutrition because of tremendous economic disruption. There is an illegitimate president, Maduro, who hates the Western/European powers. He is refusing aid. Western powers are making the tremendous economic disruption far worse in order to try and force the illegitimate president from power. As Brisket advocated earlier before disappearing, we are trying to starve the Venezuelan people into overthrowing Maduro (this is what you advocate, as well, I think).

[wildcat09 29187]

3 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

This is the NYT piece by the new President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó. I can’t comprehend how bad teammate, Fozz, hpslugga and Hugo can complain about our actions in recognizing Pres. Guaidó as the interim president which is authorized by the Venezuelan Constitution. Virtually every country in the Western Hemisphere is acting in concert with what we have done. To be opposed to relieving the suffering of the Venezuelan people is deranged and heartless. You all hate Trump so badly that his actions here which the progressive Trudeau of Canada also supports makes y’all seem truly deranged. Anything to change the status quo of starving Venezuelans should be supported. I am excited for the Venezuelan people as they have a realistic shot in liberating their country. I hope I’m alive to see the day that Iran is liberated with US support. Elliot Abrams knows what he is doing. With him and Bolton we have guys who can help effectuate regime change and fulfill our role as the defender of the Americas by promoting free markets and democracy 

 

Reveal hidden contentsReveal hidden contents   Reveal hidden contents

 

CARACAS, Venezuela — On Jan. 23, 61 years after the vicious dictator Marcos Pérez Jiménez was ousted, Venezuelans once again gathered for a day of democratic celebration. 

Pérez Jiménez was fraudulently elected by a Constituent Assembly in 1953. His term of office was scheduled to expire in 1958. But rather than calling for free and transparent presidential elections, he was undemocratically re-elected after holding a plebiscite on his administration late in 1957. Following widespread protests and a rupture within the military establishment, the dictator left the country and Venezuela regained its freedom on Jan. 23, 1958.

Once again we face the challenge of restoring our democracy and rebuilding the country, this time amid a humanitarian crisis and the illegal retention of the presidency by Nicolás Maduro. There are severe medicine and food shortages, essential infrastructure and health systems have collapsed, a growing number of children are suffering from malnutrition, and previously eradicated illnesses have re-emerged. 

We have one of the highest homicide rates in the world, which is aggravated by the government’s brutal crackdown on protesters. This tragedy has prompted the largest exodus in Latin American history, with three million Venezuelans now living abroad.

I would like to be clear about the situation in Venezuela: Mr. Maduro’s re-election on May 20, 2018, was illegitimate, as has since been acknowledged by a large part of the international community. His original six-year term was set to end on Jan. 10. By continuing to stay in office, Nicolás Maduro is usurping the presidency. 

My ascension as interim president is based on Article 233 of the Venezuelan Constitution, according to which, if at the outset of a new term there is no elected head of state, power is vested in the president of the National Assembly until free and transparent elections take place. This is why the oath I took on Jan. 23 cannot be considered a “self-proclamation.” It was not of my own accord that I assumed the function of president that day, but in adherence to the Constitution.

I was 15 when Hugo Chávez came to power in 1998. At the time I lived in Vargas State, which borders the Caribbean. In 1999 torrential rains caused flash floods that left thousands of people dead. I lost several friends, and my school was buried in the mudslide. 

The importance of resilience has been etched into my soul ever since. Both of my grandfathers served in the armed forces and they instilled a strong work ethic in their children that helped my family recover from those devastating floods. I saw that if I wanted a better future for my country I had to roll up my sleeves and give my life to public service. 

When it became clear that under Chávez the country was drifting toward totalitarianism, I joined the student movement, which played a crucial role in delivering him a decisive loss on a referendum in 2007 that would have granted him sweeping powers. I became involved in local politics and was elected to serve as a deputy representing Vargas State in the National Assembly in 2015.

That same generation of brothers and sisters from my student movement days stands alongside me today, as Venezuelans from across the political spectrum are joining in an effort to re-establish democracy. It is incumbent on us to reinstate normality, in order to build the advanced and prosperous country of which we all dream. 

But first we must recover our freedom. 

The struggle for freedom has been part of our DNA ever since independence was achieved in Latin America 200 years ago. In this century we have taken to the streets repeatedly, knowing that not only is the survival of our democracy at stake, but the very fate of our nation.

A pattern has developed under the Maduro regime. When pressure builds, the first recourse is to repress and persecute. I know this because buckshot pellets fired by members of the armed forces — at peaceful protesters in 2017 — remain lodged in my own body. A minor price to pay compared to the sacrifices made by some of my compatriots. 

Under Mr. Maduro at least 240 Venezuelans have been murdered at marches, and there are 600 political prisoners, including the founder of my party, Leopoldo López, who has been a prisoner for five years. When repressive tactics prove futile, Mr. Maduro and his henchmen disingenuously propose “dialogue.” But we have become immune to such manipulation. There are no more stunts left for them to pull. The usurpation of power was their only remaining option. 

Given that the Maduro regime cannot legitimately retain power, our response is threefold: First, to shore up the National Assembly as the last bastion of democracy; second, to consolidate the support of the international community, especially the Lima Group, the Organization of American States, the United States and the European Union; and third, to address the people, on the basis that they have a right to self-determination. 

Over 50 countries have recognized either me as interim president or the National Assembly as the legitimate authority in Venezuela. I have appealed to António Guterres, the United Nations Secretary General, as well as to several humanitarian agencies, for support in easing the humanitarian crisis. I have begun the process of appointing ambassadors and locating and recovering national assets tied up abroad.

There is a broad consensus among Venezuelans in favor of change: 84 percent of our people reject Mr. Maduro’s rule. We have, therefore, been holding town halls across the country so people can talk openly about the moment in which we find ourselves, and about our future.

Among opposition politicians, we have come up with three strategic points of agreement as part of our road map to democracy: an end to the usurpation; a transitional government; and free elections.

The transition will require support from key military contingents. We have had clandestine meetings with members of the armed forces and the security forces. We have offered amnesty to all those who are found not guilty of crimes against humanity. The military’s withdrawal of support from Mr. Maduro is crucial to enabling a change in government, and the majority of those in service agree that the country’s recent travails are untenable.

Mr. Maduro no longer has the support of the people. Last week in Caracas, citizens from the poorest neighborhoods that had been Chavista strongholds in the past took to the streets in unprecedented protests. They went out again on Jan. 23 with the full knowledge that they might be brutally repressed, and they continue to attend town hall meetings.

Mr. Maduro’s time is running out, but in order to manage his exit with the minimum of bloodshed, all of Venezuela must unite in pushing for a definitive end to his regime. For that, we need the support of pro-democratic governments, institutions and individuals the world over. It is imperative that we find effective solutions for the grave humanitarian crisis we are suffering, just as it is to go on building a path toward understanding and reconciliation.

Our strength, and the salvation of all Venezuela, is in unity.

Juan Guaidó is the president of the Venezuelan National Assembly and an opposition leader. This essay was translated from the Spanish by Thomas Bunstead.

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.

 

Man you fit a lot of bullshit into one paragraph.

[Rimbo 25752]

41 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

White Man's Burden, 2019

There is an rampant malnutrition because of tremendous economic disruption. There is an illegitimate president, Maduro, who hates the Western/European powers. He is refusing aid. Western powers are making the tremendous economic disruption far worse in order to try and force the illegitimate president from power. As Brisket advocated earlier before disappearing, we are trying to starve the Venezuelan people into overthrowing Maduro (this is what you advocate, as well, I think).

No, what I'm advocating is that we recognize Guaidó as the current acting president, which is what we're doing, because that is what Venezuela's own constitution demands, and it's been made pretty clear that Maduro's leadership is a dead-end for Venezuela.

And they would be starving without our sanctions. Venezuela has actually turned back ships full of food and medical aid at the ports.

[Fozzz 152]

Why do you believe that is what Venezuela's Constitution demands?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[Fozzz 152]

There is some larger plan at work here given Guaido’s announcement. This doesn’t feel like Iran where the idea is just to make the country suffer as much as possible. 

[sidis 9713]

3 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Elliot Abrams knows what he is doing. With him and Bolton we have guys who can help effectuate regime change and fulfill our role as the defender of the Americas by promoting free markets and democracy

in your long history of insane shit, this one may actually take the cake. 

one of oliver north's errand boys during iran-contra and one of the biggest hawks surrounding the push into iraq in 2003...

we have the guys for regime change and promoting free markets and democracy!!!

fuckers never learn.

[bad_teammate 13125]

2 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Who killed them first?

torbush.gif