Big Pharma

[Neonmoon 38,129]

 

Does Big Pharma spend enough on R&D to justify the prices charged to Americans?

Edited May 18, 2021 by Neonmoon

[Anastasis 23,480]

15 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Does Big Pharma spend enough on R&D to justify the prices charges to Americans?

No. 

Has Katie Porter done one on insulin pricing...she woudl have a fucking field day with that one. 

[Txzen 498]

No. This is not new. Big Pharma spends way more on marketing than R&D (says the guy in pharma R&D). The change in law in 1997 that opened up these advertisements was a mistake, IMHO. 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

No. 

Has Katie Porter done one on insulin pricing...she woudl have a fucking field day with that one. 

Yes she would. There are so many to choose. Lipitor, Rituxan, Advair, Symbicort, etc. 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2734804

Quote

In this economic evaluation of 49 common top-selling brand-name drugs, 78% of the drugs that have been available since 2012 have seen an increase in insurer and out-of-pocket costs by more than 50%, and 44% have more than doubled in price.

 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

5 minutes ago, Txzen said:

No. This is not new. Big Pharma spends way more on marketing than R&D (says the guy in pharma R&D). The change in law in 1997 that opened up these advertisements was a mistake, IMHO. 

Yep

Hey, it is not like anyone could see this coming...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/08/09/fda-relaxes-rules-for-on-air-drug-ads/439b1e88-55bf-4ddd-8776-b9fedf555931/

Quote

Coming soon to a small screen near you: prescription drug advertisements that actually tell you what the product does.

The Food and Drug Administration yesterday proposed new guidelines for television and radio advertisements that would allow drug manufacturers for the first time to explicitly state their product's purpose.

The move, which is part of a broader FDA effort to provide consumers with better, more understandable drug information, "can help promote greater consumer awareness about prescription drugs," said Michael J. Friedman, lead deputy FDA commissioner, in a statement.

But a leading consumer advocate warned that manufacturers will use the new advertising opportunities to sell consumers new, more profitable products when older drugs may work as well or better. "It is a setup for misleading people," said Sidney M. Wolfe, executive director of Public Citizen's Health Research Group

 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6,559]

I am sure I am wrong but I feel like drug advertisements make up like over 60% of all the commercials I see on TV.  That reminds me, I need to see if that drug Humira is something I need.  I have no idea what its for but the people in the commercial sure do look happy.

[SizzleChest 8,284]

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

10 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I am sure I am wrong but I feel like drug advertisements make up like over 60% of all the commercials I see on TV.  That reminds me, I need to see if that drug Humira is something I need.  I have no idea what its for but the people in the commercial sure do look happy.

Start advertising mifepristone and misoprostol on television and watch the heads explode.

[Anastasis 23,480]

44 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Yes she would. There are so many to choose. Lipitor, Rituxan, Advair, Symbicort, etc. 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2734804

 

It's not just the branded products.  The fucking generics are sky rocketing in price as well.

[Txzen 498]

I have spent most of my career fighting and dealing with budget reductions in R&D - many of them totally arbitrary and just  belt-tightening (i.e. not because of a major trial failure, shift in priority, etc.). I've more or less come to terms with it. The fact of the matter is R&D spends money, and can only offer the promise of profit. R&D tries to build a pipeline, but it is more attractive, often, to cut internal spend and look for BD/M&A externally for a mature 'asset' rather than develop it yourself. That's with big Pharma. Having spent time in biotech/startups, we're always trying to sell ourselves to big Pharma because they have no new ideas and are plodding behemoths. 

I'm on the research side, but will occasionally go to the big clinical conferences (like the American Society for Clinical Oncology). That's the big one in my field, at least for the corporate side as well as late breaking clinical trial data. But to rent a booth is exorbitant (many tens of thousands and up), and if you want to serve something as simple as coffee, add in another few tens of thousands. Now look at the big pharma booths that occupy hundreds of plush square feet, modeled after a trendy cabaret in Ibiza, where you can go drive some VR car through a maize of cancer cells just to get a little plushy and post it on Twitter. A patient's right advocate would have a stroke (no pun intended). It's a funny, and sometimes perverse, business - like many, I suppose when you start talking about big money. 

And yes, I know I sound like this guy now:

Spoiler

The reality is those big drugs, and even the legacy drugs, keep the lights on. How much is fair pricing in the US market, relative to the rest of the world, is a totally relevant conversation for which there isn't a particularly easy answer. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Txzen

[Biff Tannen 45,695]

3 hours ago, Txzen said:

The change in law in 1997 that opened up these advertisements was a mistake, IMHO. 

YEP.  We are the only country (I think) that allows this and it's pure insanity.

[Voldemort86 2,259]

I’ve always been amazed at how much big pharma has been able to stop marijuana from becoming legal. We’ve won the battle of public opinion, but it doesn’t mean shit if idiots like Mitch McConnell are brain washed.

[elfenix 34,330]

YEP.  We are the only country (I think) that allows this and it's pure insanity.

I did my law school journal paper on this and iirc there was one other country that allowed consumer advertising for prescription drugs.

Edit: google says it's new zealand

[Gil Bang 25,984]

Just now, elfenix said:

36 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

YEP.  We are the only country (I think) that allows this and it's pure insanity.

I did my law school journal paper on this and iirc there was one other country that allowed consumer advertising for prescription drugs.

...and that country was Germany, under Hitler. 

 

Don't be like Hitler's Germany. 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

4 minutes ago, Voldemort86 said:

idiots like Mitch McConnell are brain washed

McConnell doesn’t give two fucks about marijuana. He is not brainwashed. His pocketbook is brainwashed. Same as it ever was. 

[Txzen 498]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

McConnell doesn’t give two fucks about marijuana. He is not brainwashed. His pocketbook is brainwashed. Same as it ever was. 

And big Pharma could give a fuck about medical marijuana. Doesn't factor into anything I've ever heard in my time. No one is really interested in blocking it, if anything they want a piece of it.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,209]

50 minutes ago, Txzen said:

I have spent most of my career fighting and dealing with budget reductions in R&D - many of them totally arbitrary and just  belt-tightening (i.e. not because of a major trial failure, shift in priority, etc.). I've more or less come to terms with it. The fact of the matter is R&D spends money, and can only offer the promise of profit. R&D tries to build a pipeline, but it is more attractive, often, to cut internal spend and look for BD/M&A externally for a mature 'asset' rather than develop it yourself. That's with big Pharma. Having spent time in biotech/startups, we're always trying to sell ourselves to big Pharma because they have no new ideas and are plodding behemoths. 

I'm on the research side, but will occasionally go to the big clinical conferences (like the American Society for Clinical Oncology). That's the big one in my field, at least for the corporate side as well as late breaking clinical trial data. But to rent a booth is exorbitant (many tens of thousands and up), and if you want to serve something as simple as coffee, add in another few tens of thousands. Now look at the big pharma booths that occupy hundreds of plush square feet, modeled after a trendy cabaret in Ibiza, where you can go drive some VR car through a maize of cancer cells just to get a little plushy and post it on Twitter. A patient's right advocate would have a stroke (no pun intended). It's a funny, and sometimes perverse, business - like many, I suppose when you start talking about big money. 

And yes, I know I sound like this guy now:

  Reveal hidden contents

The reality is those big drugs, and even the legacy drugs, keep the lights on. How much is fair pricing in the US market, relative to the rest of the world, is a totally relevant conversation for which there isn't a particularly easy answer. 

Sounds like pharma conferences are like oil and gas conferences back when the industry was fun.  I’m assuming the strippers and bottle service were a simple omission in your post.

[Txzen 498]

7 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Sounds like pharma conferences are like oil and gas conferences back when the industry was fun.  I’m assuming the strippers and bottle service were a simple omission in your post.

Dude. I'm a nerd, so...no. Maybe at the clinical ones, but not the science ones. Keystone conferences are a different lot - think drunken hot tubbing with illicit substances. Too poor for bottle service, man. 

[Voldemort86 2,259]

29 minutes ago, Txzen said:

And big Pharma could give a fuck about medical marijuana. Doesn't factor into anything I've ever heard in my time. No one is really interested in blocking it, if anything they want a piece of it.

This doesn’t add up. Someone has to be blocking it.  If not big pharma, then who?

[Beantown Express 2.0 6,559]

19 minutes ago, Voldemort86 said:

This doesn’t add up. Someone has to be blocking it.  If not big pharma, then who?

Big Alcohol.

[softlynow 1,816]

3 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I am sure I am wrong but I feel like drug advertisements make up like over 60% of all the commercials I see on TV.  That reminds me, I need to see if that drug Humira is something I need.  I have no idea what its for but the people in the commercial sure do look happy.

It's done wonders for my Crohn's. And I do love the bills I get for it. $1,500 per pen, which I take every 2 weeks. At least that's what my insurance says they're paying. I pay $5 per.

[SizzleChest 8,284]

9 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Big Alcohol.

Bingo.

[Blotto 23,560]

55 minutes ago, Txzen said:

Dude. I'm a nerd, so...no. Maybe at the clinical ones, but not the science ones. Keystone conferences are a different lot - think drunken hot tubbing with illicit substances. Too poor for bottle service, man. 

If I was in the industry, I'd plan my  schedule around whichever conferences attracted the highest number of pharma sales reps. Good lord that would be a target rich environment. 

[Anastasis 23,480]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

I did my law school journal paper on this and iirc there was one other country that allowed consumer advertising for prescription drugs.

Edit: google says it's new zealand

 

1 hour ago, Gil Bang said:

...and that country was Germany, under Hitler. 

Don't be like Hitler's Germany. 

The IG Farben (conglomerate Bayer was a part of) Zyklon B basically sold itself, not need for a DTC commercial push. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,794]

38 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Big Alcohol.

It goes a lot deeper than that. There are other industrial interests involved ranging from Big Pharma to Big Paper to Big Chemical. A lot of the prohibition of cannabis was originally based on shutting down the hemp industry.

And there were political interests that would rather see the labor force recreate on alcohol after the workday is over than the “mind expanding” drugs. Don’t want that because they might be more inclined to recognize the bullshit of the ruling class and speak out against it. They might get more “uppity.” I firmly believe that’s why CBD is being more widely accepted than the genuine article where THC is the primary psychoactive ingredient in cannabis.

Nixon made cannabis a Schedule I drug specifically to target anti-war protesters but people like William Randolph Hearst and Dow Chemical waged a war against the hemp industry long before that. There’s been a pattern of misinformation against cannabis hemp for decades. Longer than I’ve been alive.

If cannabis is a “gateway drug” then it’s because when people tried it for the first time they said, “That’s it? That’s not as bad as alcohol. Obviously I’ve been lied to. What else did they lie to me about?” And then they went and tried other substances.

(Also, fuck George H.W. Bush for going after some of the major LSD producers and opening the way for ecstasy to become the major club drug in the U.S. which, imo, hurt the music because audiences on X, or “molly” as the kids like to call it, aren’t as discriminating and as long as you give them ‘untz untz untz untz’ then they’re perfectly happy. So the musicians don’t have to try as hard. If you get positive feedback from the audience by going ‘wake-waka-waka-waka,’ why try to be more innovative than that?)

But I digress. I think I made my point. If I had a teenage daughter then I’d rather she was out smoking pot with her friends than getting drunk because she’d be less likely to come home pregnant. I’d rather she’d wait until she was over 18 to try any recreational chemical but I wouldn’t make any assumptions that we were living in a perfect fantasy world.

[lmao 178]

4 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I am sure I am wrong but I feel like drug advertisements make up like over 60% of all the commercials I see on TV.  That reminds me, I need to see if that drug Humira is something I need.  I have no idea what its for but the people in the commercial sure do look happy.

Went to a derm because I had something that resembled eczema on my leg. Ended up going away on its own but the doc was like 'we could put you on Humira but the potential side effects are severe enough it could effect a life insurance policy'. I politely declined. 

[lmao 178]

1 hour ago, Blotto said:

If I was in the industry, I'd plan my  schedule around whichever conferences attracted the highest number of pharma sales reps. Good lord that would be a target rich environment. 

So many hot coeds I went to college with who didn't get a MRS ended up being pharma sales reps. That has to be the profession with the most talent outside of maybe porn.

[WhatTheBuck 28,794]

Also, start here:

https://jackherer.com/emperor-3/chapter-1/

I’m not saying it’s 100% correct but I think it mostly is. It’s well-sourced and you can decide for yourself. What more can we ask? It’s a worthwhile reference.

[Zepol87 9,188]

3 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

YEP.  We are the only country (I think) that allows this and it's pure insanity.

I am not a worldly man outside of my navy days but have made friends from a few countries in Europe, South America and Asia. We don't talk politics or anything like that but the one thing they always bring up is the drug commercials. I thought that shit was normal honestly

[BearSchlong 8,104]

Big Alcohol.

No, they're set to roll out infused drinks. They know its coming. It will be a profit center for them. Bud Light lime with indica. Sativa seltzer.

[pyrohornIII 4,817]

 

38 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

It goes a lot deeper than that. There are other industrial interests involved ranging from Big Pharma to Big Paper to Big Chemical. A lot of the prohibition of cannabis was originally based on shutting down the hemp industry.

And there were political interests that would rather see the labor force recreate on alcohol after the workday is over than the “mind expanding” drugs. Don’t want that because they might be more inclined to recognize the bullshit of the ruling class and speak out against it. They might get more “uppity.” I firmly believe that’s why CBD is being more widely accepted than the genuine article where THC is the primary psychoactive ingredient in cannabis.

Nixon made cannabis a Schedule I drug specifically to target anti-war protesters but people like William Randolph Hearst and Dow Chemical waged a war against the hemp industry long before that. There’s been a pattern of misinformation against cannabis hemp for decades. Longer than I’ve been alive.

If cannabis is a “gateway drug” then it’s because when people tried it for the first time they said, “That’s it? That’s not as bad as alcohol. Obviously I’ve been lied to. What else did they lie to me about?” And then they went and tried other substances.

(Also, fuck George H.W. Bush for going after some of the major LSD producers and opening the way for ecstasy to become the major club drug in the U.S. which, imo, hurt the music because audiences on X, or “molly” as the kids like to call it, aren’t as discriminating and as long as you give them ‘untz untz untz untz’ then they’re perfectly happy. So the musicians don’t have to try as hard. If you get positive feedback from the audience by going ‘wake-waka-waka-waka,’ why try to be more innovative than that?)

But I digress. I think I made my point. If I had a teenage daughter then I’d rather she was out smoking pot with her friends than getting drunk because she’d be less likely to come home pregnant. I’d rather she’d wait until she was over 18 to try any recreational chemical but I wouldn’t make any assumptions that we were living in a perfect fantasy world.

I always figured that anyone can grow pot at home was a big part of the reluctance to legalize.  If you can grow your own, then they can't collect taxes on it, can they?    Lots easier to grow weed than brew beer or make wine, much less run a still.  

 

And I agree with Buck, I always told my first wife I'd rather the girl date a pot smoker than drinker.  I never saw a mean toker, but I've seen lots of mean ass drunks.   

Edited May 19, 2021 by pyrohornIII

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Big Alcohol.

Big Prison Industrial Complex

[Bullneck 19,185]

 

[Biff Tannen 45,695]

2 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

I thought that shit was normal honestly

That was the goal.

[WhatTheBuck 28,794]

30 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Big Prison Industrial Complex

  Big White?

[TwiceHorn 31,512]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

It goes a lot deeper than that. There are other industrial interests involved ranging from Big Pharma to Big Paper to Big Chemical. A lot of the prohibition of cannabis was originally based on shutting down the hemp industry.

And there were political interests that would rather see the labor force recreate on alcohol after the workday is over than the “mind expanding” drugs. Don’t want that because they might be more inclined to recognize the bullshit of the ruling class and speak out against it. They might get more “uppity.” I firmly believe that’s why CBD is being more widely accepted than the genuine article where THC is the primary psychoactive ingredient in cannabis.

Nixon made cannabis a Schedule I drug specifically to target anti-war protesters but people like William Randolph Hearst and Dow Chemical waged a war against the hemp industry long before that. There’s been a pattern of misinformation against cannabis hemp for decades. Longer than I’ve been alive.

If cannabis is a “gateway drug” then it’s because when people tried it for the first time they said, “That’s it? That’s not as bad as alcohol. Obviously I’ve been lied to. What else did they lie to me about?” And then they went and tried other substances.

(Also, fuck George H.W. Bush for going after some of the major LSD producers and opening the way for ecstasy to become the major club drug in the U.S. which, imo, hurt the music because audiences on X, or “molly” as the kids like to call it, aren’t as discriminating and as long as you give them ‘untz untz untz untz’ then they’re perfectly happy. So the musicians don’t have to try as hard. If you get positive feedback from the audience by going ‘wake-waka-waka-waka,’ why try to be more innovative than that?)

But I digress. I think I made my point. If I had a teenage daughter then I’d rather she was out smoking pot with her friends than getting drunk because she’d be less likely to come home pregnant. I’d rather she’d wait until she was over 18 to try any recreational chemical but I wouldn’t make any assumptions that we were living in a perfect fantasy world.

It's just like the drug war more generally.  There are a whole lot of vested interests that don't want any of it to change and that includes the ganj.