Critical Race Theory policy in hiring at UT

[GW Hayduke 1953]

Just now, 52-80 said:

how do you reconcile the fact that solutions for the future dont solve the problems in the past?

3 kids of 3 different shades born yesterday - what problems do they face today, and tomorrow, that institutions need to develop solutions for?

 

You are talking about solutions. I'm talking about CRT.  CRT is simply about understanding the problem.  

This isn't about three kids. It is about systems.

There shouldn't be any fear about understanding the problems with the systems that run our society.  The first step to addressing a problem is acknowledging the problem.  

[Nivek 16961]

16 hours ago, PHLaggie said:

that's not MY writing-- that's the copy from youtube's description of the video, so that would be by the guy in the youtube video, Dr. James Lindsay (who is not an aggy). Follow along.

Check sources

Another Article about Lindsey

Lindsey is a mathematician.    He joined others in tricking journals to publish garbage articles a decade after another guy did the same.    Maybe he found it profitable to fleece the rubes into listening to what they want to hear, or maybe he is at it again.   

[Macklemore 2873]

Critical race theory is a pernicious ideology that will lead to the further balkanization of this country. It is anti-American at its core - it turns E pluribus unum on its head. Ibrahim Kendi advocates a cabinet level Anti-Racism czar to enforce equity. It assigns oppressor, blame and victimhood status to people based on their race, a category that no one has a choice in belonging to. American values are based on the individual having agency in their lives. In viewing everything through the oppressor/oppressed lens based on racial categories, it ignores groups within the racial categories that exceed the racist low expectations placed on them by CRT adherents - examples like Nigerian and Cuban Americans who do far better than their racial cohorts. As for systemic racism, it is historical fact that institutionalized systemic racism existed until the Civil Rights Acts of the 60s. I think a far more valuable and consensus building use of the term "systemic racism" is to add the qualifier "historic" or "legacy" systemic racism to highlight the history but also the impact it has to this day. In my world view, the effects of redlining can still be felt and is evidenced by generational wealth creation by blacks lagging significantly behind whites. I would support reparations for black families who were impacted by redlining by providing down payment assistance/subsidies by the federal government for blacks to buy homes. Not differentiating between legacy systemic racism and what we have today is a disservice. One can say there are existing, disparate impact on blacks as a result of cash bail, being stopped by the police, etc.; however, it does not belong in the same category as poll taxes, literacy tests and segregation. I just think there needs to be a differentiation to get greater buy in to actually solve the problems of the legacy of historic systemic racism and the issues of disparate impact we have today.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Macklemore

[immamac 42900]

Stop cloaking up a good discussion. Start another thread if you want to talk policy or party. Keep this to CRT. 

[KYHorn 17134]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

What I mean by "so theoretical" is that "critical studies" of almost any ilk attempt to explain lots of things, hence "theory."  They come up pretty short, most of the time, in delivering actual solutions short of "tear it all down and start over."

By studying the origin of problems, one can find solutions, no doubt.  But critical studies tend to be deconstructionist by nature and don't tend to offer practical solutions to the subjects under "critique."

That's why I find DEI, for example, to be somewhat practical and therefore not a direct product of CRT.  You can take bits and pieces of information and analysis from CRT and devise solutions based on them, but those bits and pieces often aren't unique to CRT.  And, CRT would probably criticize any such solutions as incremental and insufficient.

For example, most people seem to agree that black folk and others have gotten a shit deal here and maybe we should do something about it.  That notion is not unique to CRT.  DEI seems to be a response to that notion within the context of UT.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

I don't believe CRT identifies solutions.  It looks critically at our systems and points to problems. It is up to our institutions to develop solutions.

The whole reason right-wing media outlets (like Tucker and Fox and Friends) say it is scary is because it acknowledges your first two bullet points.** They feel that knowing those realities promotes victimhood and makes people ashamed, etc.  When in reality CRT is just understanding how the world works (which you acknowledge in your first two bullets.)  

 

** other than the reasons this fits right-wing media's culture war playbook perfectly.

While I agree that critical studies and CRT in particular tends to offer far more critiques than solutions (and often critiques its own solutions) and in fact is often criticized as being nihilistic, one issue with CRT and this discussion about it, is that, as its proponents readily admit, it "lacks a formal structure". So, while you may be correct in the most strict sense, there are many CRTs who do advocate particular policies or policy changes. Indeed, dismantling power structures through change is a core component of CRT. DiAngelo, for example, has been a big proponent of implementing implicit bias trainings and tests. Affirmative action is another good example because some CRTs have advocated for (Barnes) it and some have criticized it (Delgado).  Sometimes CRT manifests as just critiquing aspects of society and sometimes it manifests as advocating changes. Again, it lacks structure and would probably resist the imposition of such structure in the first place, so despite the fact that I often feel a sense of frustration and nihilism after reading most CRT literature, there are certainly aspects of advocacy and taking policy positions within CRT.

[pacman 7369]

Critical Race Theory is a funny name when it should just be called History.

24 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are talking about solutions. I'm talking about CRT.  CRT is simply about understanding the problem.  

This isn't about three kids. It is about systems.

There shouldn't be any fear about understanding the problems with the systems that run our society.  The first step to addressing a problem is acknowledging the problem.  

Agree. I find all the opposition, especially the exaggerated/dramatic hyperbole, to CRT odd. 

[Macklemore 2873]

57 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

i just ate fresh carne de chinameca sopes. they were fucking delicious.

What's in those. Any pics

[52-80 19222]

30 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

You are talking about solutions. I'm talking about CRT.  CRT is simply about understanding the problem.  

This isn't about three kids. It is about systems.

There shouldn't be any fear about understanding the problems with the systems that run our society.  The first step to addressing a problem is acknowledging the problem.  

can you illustrate this big system as it applies in just 1 small instance to just 1 kid?  doesnt sound so critical if it cant be illustrated in a tangible way.

[HornOnTheBayou 8945]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Anybody in here except ArmyBrat actually lived through the red and yellow segment of that timeline? 

If you yourself squeezed out some kids anytime recent or in the future,  what's to stop them from growing up, going to school, getting in college, getting a job, getting a mortgage, having a healthy fruitful family and life? 

There are plenty of obstacles that have to be overcome and several have already been mentioned here (generational wealth, mortgages, policing). I'll add this on to the list as well:

Quote

High school counselors are less likely to recommend Black girls and teenagers to Advanced Placement (AP) classes than their peers, a new study found, even when their transcripts are identical. 

School counselors were asked to evaluate student transcripts that had been randomly assigned racially coded names — “Deja Jackson” or “DeAndre Washington” versus “Hannah Douglas” or “Jake Connor" — based on previous research using California birth certificate data. The findings revealed that Black female students were less likely to be recommended for AP calculus and were rated as being the least prepared. 

Are there students who are able to overcome these obstacles and be successful? Of course. Should they have to deal with these sort of obstacles in the first place? Hell no.

[Macklemore 2873]

34 minutes ago, immamac said:

Stop cloaking up a good discussion. Start another thread if you want to talk policy or party. Keep this to CRT. 

Is this directed at me? I didn't make a partisan argument.

[immamac 42900]

No in general. I had a few reports. 

[52-80 19222]

15 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

There are plenty of obstacles that have to be overcome and several have already been mentioned here (generational wealth, mortgages, policing). I'll add this on to the list as well:

Are there students who are able to overcome these obstacles and be successful? Of course. Should they have to deal with these sort of obstacles in the first place? Hell no.

generational wealth - so what?

i dont have it, 95% of you dont have it, most white people dont have it, the million of people (literally) who migrate to the US each year going back decades dont come with it...  i support a higher tax on inheritance, cap gains, but thats a totally separate discussion.

mortgages - again, so what?

first page someone brought up race.  never seen it asked on a mortgage application.  lending algos only care about 1 color and its green.

policing - million page topic so its probably polite not to rehash it here...

 

point is when you get into nuts and bolts of it, there are primary and secondary and tertiary factors that play into these issues, but seems like an easy narrative is just to drop a blame bomb on race and walkaway.  seems really cheap, hand-wavey, and feckless.

Edited May 20, 2021 by 52-80

[GW Hayduke 1953]

40 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

can you illustrate this big system as it applies in just 1 small instance to just 1 kid?  doesnt sound so critical if it cant be illustrated in a tangible way.

Again, CRT isn't about one kid. 

Probably be best starting point is acknowledging the differences in wealth accumulation in the US.  After that, moving down to understand the various systems (land use regs, tax policies, hiring practices, education access, health care access, transportation investments, etc.) that have contributed to the wealth situation in the US.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disparities-in-wealth-by-race-and-ethnicity-in-the-2019-survey-of-consumer-finances-20200928.htm

[Pancho 44936]

52 minutes ago, pacman said:

Critical Race Theory is a funny name when it should just be called History.

Agree. I find all the opposition, especially the exaggerated/dramatic hyperbole, to CRT odd. 

CRT isn't just about History, it's also about applying the theory to current situations.  That's why it's a theory that can be applied to view something through a critical lens whether that happened 100 years ago or 1 minute ago.  It can also be use to hypothesize about future situations.  What it doesn't do is lump all people together as being racist, which is what some people in America want you to believe.  Those folks are a.) lying and b.) confirming they have no idea what CRT actually is.   

And yes, CRT can be applied to White people as well, not just Black, Latino, Middle Eastern, or AAPI.  It's interesting to see so many Whites of a certain background so angered by CRT when the fucking theory can be applied to them as well.

The funniest part (funniest or sad?) is so many people rushing to cancel CRT in K-12 schools (ironic) when this theory is mostly taught in grad classes at the college level. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

19 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Again, CRT isn't about one kid. 

Probably be best starting point is acknowledging the differences in wealth accumulation in the US.  After that, moving down to understand the various systems (land use regs, tax policies, hiring practices, education access, health care access, transportation investments, etc.) that have contributed to the wealth situation in the US.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disparities-in-wealth-by-race-and-ethnicity-in-the-2019-survey-of-consumer-finances-20200928.htm

Edited May 20, 2021 by DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

[BabaYaga 15304]

49 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

point is when you get into nuts and bolts of it, there are primary and secondary and tertiary factors that play into these issues, but seems like an easy narrative is just to drop a blame bomb on race and walkaway.  seems really cheap, hand-wavey, and feckless.

Yep.  Just like the left has an unrealistic utopian vision of a perfect marxist society, the reactionary right has a utopian vision of an idealized conservative society modeled on a nostalgic view of some part of the past, and neither is attainable or a stable solution to ongoing and changing problems across civilization. Our situation is too dynamic and complex for and simplistic human ordered construct to be effectively applicable, at least not without having to resort to horrific tyranny against many individuals to approach the goals.

Every authoritarian top down ideology, no matter how honestly good its ultimate intent, has to oppress at all its margins to enforce compliance and there's always some who believe they could morally and ethically make that unnecessary or justifiable, and make the entire system work, if only they themselves, or someone very like themselves, were in charge.

Better to let individuals and voluntary groups arrange their own little parts of utopia as best they can for themselves, and simply manage the resulting conflicts amongst them at a low level as reasonably as possible. There is less systemic risk.

[52-80 19222]

17 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

 

Probably be best starting point is acknowledging the differences in wealth accumulation in the US.  After that, moving down to understand the various systems (land use regs, tax policies, hiring practices, education access, health care access, transportation investments, etc.) that have contributed to the wealth situation in the US.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/disparities-in-wealth-by-race-and-ethnicity-in-the-2019-survey-of-consumer-finances-20200928.htm

There is a difference in everything, correlated to everything.  And it's correlated to height, and physical attractiveness, and religious affiliation, and golf handicap, too.  So what?  If you want to say that people have different outcomes, that's not saying much.

I'm asking what is clear and substantive and unjust as impediments that prevent a person today from getting what they want, then that's more meaningful to talk about.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

There is a difference in everything, correlated to everything.  And it's correlated to height, and physical attractiveness, and religious affiliation, and golf handicap, too.  So what?  If you want to say that people have different outcomes, that's not saying much.

I'm asking what is clear and substantive and unjust as impediments that prevent a person today from getting what they want, then that's more meaningful to talk about.

After that, moving down to understand the various systems (land use regs, tax policies, hiring practices, education access, health care access, transportation investments, etc.) that have contributed to the wealth situation in the US.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

After that, moving down to understand the various systems (land use regs, tax policies, hiring practices, education access, health care access, transportation investments, etc.) that have contributed to the wealth situation in the US.

Let's do a one time reparations then.  Make it even.  I am fine with that.  But no more bitching after that.

 

20 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

[TwiceHorn 31520]

30 minutes ago, Pancho said:

CRT isn't just about History, it's also about applying the theory to current situations.  That's why it's a theory that can be applied to view something through a critical lens whether that happened 100 years ago or 1 minute ago.  It can also be use to hypothesize about future situations.  What it doesn't do is lump all people together as being racist, which is what some people in America want you to believe.  Those folks are a.) lying and b.) confirming they have no idea what CRT actually is.   

And yes, CRT can be applied to White people as well, not just Black, Latino, Middle Eastern, or AAPI.  It's interesting to see so many Whites of a certain background so angered by CRT when the fucking theory can be applied to them as well.

The funniest part (funniest or sad?) is so many people rushing to cancel CRT in K-12 schools (ironic) when this theory is mostly taught in grad classes at the college level. 

Yeah, there's a complete conflation of CRT with anything that acknowledges America's troubled racial history.

"Critical" anything basically holds that every aspect of a current culture and society is erected to reinforce, maintain, and benefit the majority who created that culture and society and actively injures and restrains those who are not part of the majority.

Critical Legal Studies is the birthplace of it all and focuses on how the legal system, both criminal and civil, serves to entrench and benefit the upper echelons of society, who mostly happen to be white and maie, and, obviously, rich.

Critical Race Theory focuses on the white part.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

There is a difference in everything, correlated to everything.  And it's correlated to height, and physical attractiveness, and religious affiliation, and golf handicap, too.  So what?  If you want to say that people have different outcomes, that's not saying much.

I'm asking what is clear and substantive and unjust as impediments that prevent a person today from getting what they want, then that's more meaningful to talk about.

you're always asking people to convince you of something in which you have no interest in any considering there's a problem to begin with.

great example above...there is a MASSIVE fucking disparity in net worth broken down by race. but you dismiss it out of hand, then ask someone to dive deeper to really convince you?

ok.

[babysdaddy 2727]

35 minutes ago, Pancho said:

CRT isn't just about History, it's also about applying the theory to current situations.  That's why it's a theory that can be applied to view something through a critical lens whether that happened 100 years ago or 1 minute ago.  It can also be use to hypothesize about future situations.  What it doesn't do is lump all people together as being racist, which is what some people in America want you to believe.  Those folks are a.) lying and b.) confirming they have no idea what CRT actually is.   

And yes, CRT can be applied to White people as well, not just Black, Latino, Middle Eastern, or AAPI.  It's interesting to see so many Whites of a certain background so angered by CRT when the fucking theory can be applied to them as well.

The funniest part (funniest or sad?) is so many people rushing to cancel CRT in K-12 schools (ironic) when this theory is mostly taught in grad classes at the college level. 

I don't know anything about CRT and have purposefully avoided reading about it because it seems like the current bright light culture war that the far right mororns and lefties love to fight about.  Regardless, reading what you wrote the first thought that popped in my head was 'that seems like a built in excuse for people (of any color) to use when shit doesn't go their way without any self reflection or self awareness'.  I know that isn't right but that is how I read your post.

[52-80 19222]

4 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

you're always asking people to convince you of something in which you have no interest in any considering there's a problem to begin with.

great example above...there is a MASSIVE fucking disparity in net worth broken down by race. but you dismiss it out of hand, then ask someone to dive deeper to really convince you?

ok.

i literally acknowledged there is a disparity in outcome.  for every metric there is on earth.  there's a massive disparity in professional basketball salary broken down by race, too.

im asking you, what's unjustly stopping a mexican kid from netting $5M, or landing a contract with the brooklyn nets, at the systemic level?

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Let's do a one time reparations then.  Make it even.  I am fine with that.  But no more bitching after that.

 

income, huh?

Quote

A close examination of wealth in the U.S. finds evidence of staggering racial disparities. At $171,000, the net worth of a typical white family is nearly ten times greater than that of a Black family ($17,150) in 2016. Gaps in wealth between Black and white households reveal the effects of accumulated inequality and discrimination, as well as differences in power and opportunity that can be traced back to this nation’s inception. The Black-white wealth gap reflects a society that has not and does not afford equality of opportunity to all its citizens.

Efforts by Black Americans to build wealth can be traced back throughout American history. But these efforts have been impeded in a host of ways, beginning with 246 years of chattel slavery and followed by Congressional mismanagement of the Freedman’s Savings Bank (which left 61,144 depositors with losses of nearly $3 million in 1874), the violent massacre decimating Tulsa’s Greenwood District in 1921 (a population of 10,000 that thrived as the epicenter of African American business and culture, commonly referred to as “Black Wall Street”), and discriminatory policies throughout the 20^th century including the Jim Crow Era’s “Black Codes” strictly limiting opportunity in many southern states, the GI bill, the New Deal’s Fair Labor Standards Act’s exemption of domestic agricultural and service occupations, and redlining. Wealth was taken from these communities before it had the opportunity to grow.

This history matters for contemporary inequality in part because its legacy is passed down generation-to-generation through unequal monetary inheritances which make up a great deal of current wealth. In 2020 Americans are projected to inherit about $765 billion in gifts and bequests, excluding wealth transfers to spouses and transfers that support minor children. Inheritances account for roughly 4 percent of annual household income, much of which goes untaxed by the U.S. government.

btw, highlighted that last part for you, @Johnny Sack.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

i literally acknowledged there is a disparity in outcome.  for every metric there is on earth.  there's a massive disparity in professional basketball salary broken down by race, too.

im asking you, what's unjustly stopping a mexican kid from netting $5M, or landing a contract with the brooklyn nets, at the systemic level?

 

the point my post was to laugh at the absurdity of trying to engage with you in an honest conversation given your posting history on this board. so yeah, no thank you.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

income, huh?

btw, highlighted that last part for you, @Johnny Sack.

You should give some of your wealth away.  What's stopping you?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

You should give some of your wealth away.  What's stopping you?

were you not interested in having an honest discussion about wealth disparity between races? i felt like my chart was a pretty good @Johnny Sack summation, no?

[DonkeyCigars 143]

CRT is interesting because it is so polarizing and it means something different to most people I ask (as shown by this thread, too). I find it to be tacky to talk about things like, specifically CRT, and generally politics, among friends and family and in public and at parties. I think you should just do what you think is right and what you think is best.

FWIW, I think of CRT like Johnny Sack does, and so CRT is probably about 50% of why we decided against public schools for a private education. We just didn't want any part of it and think our children's energy, resources and time is better spent in different ways. If you want to engage with it and think it's great, great. More power to you, as we used to say.

I said this earlier, but I feel like there is a healthy medium between "Pale, Yale and Male" and Critical Race Theory. We are trying to find the best landing place for our kids. Go and do likewise, gents. The money is out there. You pick it up, it's yours. You don't? I have no sympathy.

Edited May 20, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

were you not interested in having an honest discussion about wealth disparity between races? i felt like my chart was a pretty good @Johnny Sack summation, no?

I have already admitted there is a harmful legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.  I am ready to pay reparations to remedy the legacy effects of those harmful Democratic policies.  Are you?  I support reparations.  Then let's all move the fuck on with no more bitching.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Johnny Sack

[BabaYaga 15304]

It's "untaxed" because it was already taxed when earned

[KYHorn 17134]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

generational wealth - so what?

i dont have it, 95% of you dont have it, most white people dont have it, the million of people (literally) who migrate to the US each year going back decades dont come with it...  i support a higher tax on inheritance, cap gains, but thats a totally separate discussion.

mortgages - again, so what?

first page someone brought up race.  never seen it asked on a mortgage application.  lending algos only care about 1 color and its green.

policing - million page topic so its probably polite not to rehash it here...

 

point is when you get into nuts and bolts of it, there are primary and secondary and tertiary factors that play into these issues, but seems like an easy narrative is just to drop a blame bomb on race and walkaway.  seems really cheap, hand-wavey, and feckless.

In general, I agree this is often my takeaway, however we have to be willing to identify potential primary and secondary issues related to race and accept they the still play a massive role in racial inequalities. Marriages rates and mortgages are, in my opinion, major contributors to differential outcomes and a substantial portion of those differences can be attributed to past racism and discrimination

[52-80 19222]

16 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

the point my post was to laugh at the absurdity of trying to engage with you in an honest conversation given your posting history on this board. so yeah, no thank you.

 

there we go, another blame bomb.  all bark, no bite.

[Brisketexan 105204]

40 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Yep.  Just like the left has an unrealistic utopian vision of a perfect marxist society, the reactionary right has a utopian vision of an idealized conservative society modeled on a nostalgic view of some part of the past, and neither is attainable or a stable solution to ongoing and changing problems across civilization. Our situation is too dynamic and complex for and simplistic human ordered construct to be effectively applicable, at least not without having to resort to horrific tyranny against many individuals to approach the goals.

Every authoritarian top down ideology, no matter how honestly good its ultimate intent, has to oppress at all its margins to enforce compliance and there's always some who believe they could morally and ethically make that unnecessary or justifiable, and make the entire system work, if only they themselves, or someone very like themselves, were in charge.

Better to let individuals and voluntary groups arrange their own little parts of utopia as best they can for themselves, and simply manage the resulting conflicts amongst them at a low level as reasonably as possible. There is less systemic risk.

Let me summarize some of this absurdity.

The proposition is that our systems should stay the fuck out of ANY part of an effort to address, remedy, or reconcile the effects of historical systemic racism.  So, to summarize......in response to four centuries of systemic racism, literally enshrined in our founding documents, and perpetuated through laws and policies -- both official and unofficial -- for centuries, we should absolutely, 100%, NOT use laws and policies -- both official and unofficial -- to address any of the circumstances created by those systems, but instead should just let folks hang out and work things out on a personal level, counting on the goodness of their hearts and believing that small groups can efficiently bring about large-scale change.

OR, here's an idea: we used the force of law and the State to fuck shit up for minorities for 400 years.  The force of law and the State were SUPER-effective in doing so.  Maybe we oughta examine some ways to reasonably use those exact same forces to UN-fuck some of what they fucked?  Instead of saying "okay, we used the efficient tools of the State to do a lot of bad shit, but to undo any of that, we should hamstring ourselves and just count on some freelance folks with good hearts."  Thanks for using a massive John Deere tractor to sow the system aimed at doing minorities wrong, and then handing out some rusty scythes for us to use to cut down that crop.  

I truly don't understand why we react so viscerally to the idea that we ought to look at massive systems put in place to disadvantage minorities, with an eye towards understanding them, making sure we don't further/perpetuate them, and maybe, where it's feasible and compatible with our ideals and system of laws, actually take steps to remedy that harm.  Those all sound like exactly what a society based on justice would do.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I have already admitted there is a harmful legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.  I am ready to pay reparations to fix those harmful Democratic policies.  Are you?  I support reparations.  Then let's all move the fuck on with no more bitching.

 

ABE LINCOLN WAS A REPUBLICAN!

but no, i don't think reparations are a magic bullet that would suddenly give everyone an equal chance. maybe it's part of a broader approach, but saying 'here's some money now shut the fuck up' isn't a solution in and of itself.

i would however make my first ever stock purchase in Cheesecake Factory should a bill be passed that included reparations.

cheescake-rocko.jpg

[Blotto 23564]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

I have already admitted there is a harmful legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.  I am ready to pay reparations to fix those harmful Democratic policies.  Are you?  I support reparations.  Then let's all move the fuck on with no more bitching.

 

What would you support? $20K, $200K, $2M each. who pays for it? If its something trivial like $20K, how  are things any different when the vast majority blow through that money in a year? what will we have solved? how much money in your mind is a fair figure for the "harmful legacy of slavery and   Jim Crow"? If that's your solution to make things right in the world, lets talk specifics. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

What's going on in the DT today?

[Brisketexan 105204]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

What's going on in the DT today?

Oh, wait till we weave in vaccination issues into this bitch.  It'll be a hoot.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, Blotto said:

What would you support? $20K, $200K, $2M each. who pays for it? If its something trivial like $20K, how  are things any different when the vast majority blow through that money in a year? what will we have solved? how much money in your mind is a fair figure for the "harmful legacy of slavery and   Jim Crow"? If that's your solution to make things right in the world, lets talk specifics. 

Whatever it takes to make wealth equal.  Average wealth of whites less average wealth of blacks. Cut a check for that amount.  Then we move on.  If it gets blown in a year or two, then tough shit.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

It will cost a couple trillion, by my back of the napkin math. But fuck it no one cares about the debt any way.  

[BabaYaga 15304]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Let me summarize some of this absurdity.

The proposition is that our systems should stay the fuck out of ANY part of an effort to address, remedy, or reconcile the effects of historical systemic racism.  So, to summarize......in response to four centuries of systemic racism, literally enshrined in our founding documents, and perpetuated through laws and policies -- both official and unofficial -- for centuries, we should absolutely, 100%, NOT use laws and policies -- both official and unofficial -- to address any of the circumstances created by those systems, but instead should just let folks hang out and work things out on a personal level, counting on the goodness of their hearts and believing that small groups can efficiently bring about large-scale change.

OR, here's an idea: we used the force of law and the State to fuck shit up for minorities for 400 years.  The force of law and the State were SUPER-effective in doing so.  Maybe we oughta examine some ways to reasonably use those exact same forces to UN-fuck some of what they fucked?  Instead of saying "okay, we used the efficient tools of the State to do a lot of bad shit, but to undo any of that, we should hamstring ourselves and just count on some freelance folks with good hearts."  Thanks for using a massive John Deere tractor to sow the system aimed at doing minorities wrong, and then handing out some rusty scythes for us to use to cut down that crop.  

I truly don't understand why we react so viscerally to the idea that we ought to look at massive systems put in place to disadvantage minorities, with an eye towards understanding them, making sure we don't further/perpetuate them, and maybe, where it's feasible and compatible with our ideals and system of laws, actually take steps to remedy that harm.  Those all sound like exactly what a society based on justice would do.

Nice hyperbole and a total and complete lack of any original or nuanced thought.  Nobody is saying anything of the sort about "ignoring" anything. 

The point is CRT is a politicized, blunt instrument that is based upon the reorientation of both the world and worldview.  It leans HEAVILY on power dynamics, viewing society through the simplistic lens of society being based on the allotment of power and culture and is the argument for the future funding of sed allotment.  So yes, it has a resonance of Marxist ideology as each see the world in terms of power dynamics and unjust institutional structures.  

Back top my point, it's a hopelessly blunt instrument that is marginal at identifying problems and completely inept at solving them.  

[BabaYaga 15304]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Whatever it takes to make wealth equal.

Wealth takes time.  See the earlier graph about 55+/- years of a quasi-level playing field.  That is not enough time to gauge the efficacy of any of these generational problems and the subsequent remedies.  

[jimmyjazz 46049]

8 minutes ago, Blotto said:

What would you support? $20K, $200K, $2M each. who pays for it? If its something trivial like $20K, how  are things any different when the vast majority blow through that money in a year? what will we have solved? how much money in your mind is a fair figure for the "harmful legacy of slavery and   Jim Crow"? If that's your solution to make things right in the world, lets talk specifics. 

Just for fun, I decided to imagine a massive reparations package, as large or larger than the total covid relief we have provided:  $10T

There are 37M black Americans.  That would amount to a one-time payment of $270K for every single black man, woman and child.

I'm not advocating for or against this, just trying to supply a sense of scale.  I do believe such payments would be significant and would certainly help a good percentage of black America up the economic ladder.

It also doesn't help a large swath of other minorities, most prominently Hispanic Americans.  And, it doesn't help poor white Americans, or perhaps more importantly, Native Americans.  So, it's a very clumsy "solution", but if we are focusing solely on hundreds of years of abuse heaped on African Americans brought over for slave labor, it's a number, and not a small one.  Feel free to change my numbers.

[CDAK 216]

23 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

were you not interested in having an honest discussion about wealth disparity between races? i felt like my chart was a pretty good @Johnny Sack summation, no?

Wealth is built up over time and passed down over generations. Thus, discrimination yesterday can affect wealth today. I think historical discrimination probably plays a decent-sized role in the different wealth outcomes across race. 

Compare the wealth chart to the income chart. The differences across race are smaller. Whites aren't at the top, either by median income or mean income. Asians are at the top. Thus, I'd expect Asian wealth outcomes to increase year after year.

I also think the primary reason Asian income outcomes are highest is cultural. I don't think there's systemic discrimination providing Asians a leg-up. But that's what people espousing "all racial group outcomes must be equal" would have you believe.

[BabaYaga 15304]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

It will cost a couple trillion, by my back of the napkin math. But fuck it no one cares about the debt any way.  

Just print a few of these puppies.  Problem solved

[MoJames 8244]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

No in general. I had a few reports. 

 

[Celery Man 20991]

Is this the reparations thread?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Just for fun, I decided to imagine a massive reparations package, as large or larger than the total covid relief we have provided:  $10T

There are 37M black Americans.  That would amount to a one-time payment of $270K for every single black man, woman and child.

I'm not advocating for or against this, just trying to supply a sense of scale.  I do believe such payments would be significant and would certainly help a good percentage of black America up the economic ladder.

It also doesn't help a large swath of other minorities, most prominently Hispanic Americans.  And, it doesn't help poor white Americans, or perhaps more importantly, Native Americans.  So, it's a very clumsy "solution", but if we are focusing solely on hundreds of years of abuse heaped on African Americans brought over for slave labor, it's a number, and not a small one.  Feel free to change my numbers.

That number is too high, and would make the average family of four instant millionaires.  I would support enough to make them equal to whites in wealth today.  The average white family has a median worth of around $170k.  The average black family is at $17k.  Make up for that gap.  And maybe add on an extra $50k for anyone born before the 1964 civil rights act, since they actually experienced Jim Crow in their life times.  And count the natives in there too.  I think this could be done for a 2-3 trillion and see no reason why Covid relief has any relevance to it.

[Helobious 9464]

28 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

CRT is interesting because it is so polarizing and it means something different to most people I ask (as shown by this thread, too). I find it to be tacky to talk about things like, specifically CRT, and generally politics, among friends and family and in public and at parties. I think you should just do what you think is right and what you think is best.

FWIW, I think of CRT like Johnny Sack does, and so CRT is probably about 50% of why we decided against public schools for a private education. We just didn't want any part of it and think our children's energy, resources and time is better spent in different ways. If you want to engage with it and think it's great, great. More power to you, as we used to say.

I said this earlier, but I feel like there is a healthy medium between "Pale, Yale and Male" and Critical Race Theory. We are trying to find the best landing place for our kids. Go and do likewise, gents. The money is out there. You pick it up, it's yours. You don't? I have no sympathy.

I was in public high school <10 years ago and heard about CRT for the first time ever a few weeks ago. I know my youngest cousin just finished 9th grade at public school, he’s never heard of it in his life. Not saying private school is right/wrong for your kids, but I think you grossly overestimate how widely taught CRT is.

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

 

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Yep.  Just like the left has an unrealistic utopian vision of a perfect marxist society...

 

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Nice hyperbole and a total and complete lack of any original or nuanced thought.  Nobody is saying anything of the sort about "ignoring" anything. 

Sorry we can't all reach your level of original and nuanced thoughts.

[BabaYaga 15304]

2 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Yep.  Just like the left has an unrealistic utopian vision of a perfect marxist society...

 

Sorry we can't all reach your level of original and nuanced thoughts.

Apologies, meant to say "democratic socialism"

Carry on....