Critical Race Theory policy in hiring at UT

[Captainant 27,655]

15 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

Please. Lot of hyperbole in this. A lot of people here don't seem to have an understanding of bad some of our schools truly are. Notice I have not mentioned anything about CRT here. I don't care about those issues. What I am talking about is our failed schools in poor urban and yes, rural communities, (thanks, @jimmyjazz, for reminding me that rural students suffer as much-great point).

And also, since you guys are opposed to a highly STEM-focused education for low-income, I wonder if you advocate shutting down the incredibly successful school in Texas that is doing just that? The South Texas ISD Science Academy in Mercedes Texas is a free, public school that focuses entirely on STEM. They are ranked in the top 1% of public schools in the US. This is a very modest-income community that gets it and is creating doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. LOL on the creating mindless computer-programming drones. Wow, such a racist school.  How on earth will these engineers survive without all the critical skills they could learn from Shakespeare? 

Dude, do you realize what you're arguing here? You're arguing to ONLY teach STEM courses, and nothing else. We are arguing for a wholistic education.

We should not hold some subjects back from students just because it's hard to teach all the subjects. We should DO BETTER and actually provide a complete education for all children, not just teach the subjects that will make a valuable worker caste that doesn't have the understanding that things could be better.

That's some seriously diabolical shit man.

 

Also, please cut it with the "whaaaa whaaaa stop being mean to me, I donate to a hatian orphanage, you're the real racists!" schtick. It really undercuts any reason to take you seriously.

[jimmyjazz 45,902]

I stand by my assertion that only teaching STEM is monumentally stupid.

And for what it's worth, it took 3 minutes to go the website for the South Texas ISD Science Academy and find . . . wait for it . . . multiple faculty in

 

Art (2)

PE (2)

English (8)

Social Studies & History (7)

Spanish (4)

 

 

So, you can't even get that right.  

[elfenix 34,231]

the romans taught only STEM to slaves.  probably because if the romans taught slaves the skills that citizens were expected to have, the slaves would start getting ideas. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by elfenix

[jimmyjazz 45,902]

10 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Art (2)

PE (2)

English (8)

Social Studies & History (7)

Spanish (4)

By the way, just to be complete, they have 10 "Engineering" teachers, 7 Math teachers, and 11 Science teachers.  Doesn't seem all that out of whack to me, it's definitely STEM-heavy, but a very long way from "exclusively" STEM.  And before @TreatyOak tries to move the goalposts, this was his description of the school:

Quote

 The South Texas ISD Science Academy in Mercedes Texas is a free, public school that focuses entirely on STEM.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by jimmyjazz

[WhatTheBuck 28,777]

35 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

Go back and read all the comments about my idea starting on that page from @WhatTheBuck, @David Dennison, etc, etc, who all claim it is somehow racist and bad to have lower-income schools focus exclusively on STEM

I never said any such thing you fucking moron. 

[aggie08 21,497]

53 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I stand by my assertion that only teaching STEM is monumentally stupid.

And for what it's worth, it took 3 minutes to go the website for the South Texas ISD Science Academy and find . . . wait for it . . . multiple faculty in

 

Art (2)

PE (2)

English (8)

Social Studies & History (7)

Spanish (4)

 

 

So, you can't even get that right.  

Whoopsies

[Pancho 44,759]

1 hour ago, TreatyOak said:

So @Pancho and @David Dennison, based on your above comments, I guess you advocate shutting the South Texas ISD Science Academy based on the fact that the engineers, doctors and scientists in this low-income community that start here are purposely being marginalized by society by not getting to learn all the stuff that white kids get to learn. 

 

Show me in any of my posts where I said STEM (and I say STEAM, not STEM) shouldn't be taught.  

 

I'll wait here for your reply, although I do have a lecture at 12:30pm.  (Today's topic: How Uncertainty Reduction Theory, Social Exchange Theory, and Equity Theory influence our personal relationships.)

[tchookem 3,900]

I was personally waiting for him to figure it out on his own, but alas that was never going to happen. 

I was trying to get the discussion back on track, but based on another response directed, it doesn't sound like that's what he wants to do.

[tchookem 3,900]

Blah, blah, blah....

Notice I have not mentioned anything about CRT here. I don't care about those issues. What I am talking about is our failed schools in poor urban and yes, rural communities...

blah, blah, blah

You do realize this is the CRT thread? If you want to talk about failed education system start a thread for that. Or find one of the thousands of threads where this discussion has already been had.

[Captainant 27,655]

1 minute ago, tchookem said:

You do realize this is the CRT thread? If you want to talk about failed education system start a thread for that. Or find one of the thousands of threads where this discussion has already been had.

 

IMO - his stated desire to paper over the unpleasant parts of our history is pretty squarely in line with the current conservative dogma and is pretty at home in the CRT thread discussion. 

[David Dennison 18,854]

4 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

Wasn't you, but nice try. It was @jimmyjazz on page 53: "That's the dumbest idea regarding public education I've heard in years.  Congratulations."

Go back and read all the comments about my idea starting on that page from @WhatTheBuck, @David Dennison, etc, etc, who all claim it is somehow racist and bad to have lower-income schools focus exclusively on STEM and here is an amazing school in South Texas that has done exactly that and is now one of the most acclaimed public schools in the nation.

All we are saying is that the focus on STEM should not be exclusive. It's better for the students and society to include subjects which promote critical thinking. Those subjects are the humanities.

[Beau Vine 54,212]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:09 PM, TurkeyChew said:

I wouldn't think she would; I'm sure we would have heard about them. Behaviors associated with poor people with respect to classism and what drives discrimination and prejudice are mostly negative and mostly in opposition to what the hegemonic class holds up as ideal. They are negative stereotypes that serve to "other" and make villains of the poor in an "us vs. them" that even extends to the aspirational (e.g. ladder climbing ambitious poor identifying or otherwise acting as if they belong to a higher social status):

Antisocial behavior, loud, improper, messy, sloppy, vulgar, impolite, unhygienic/unclean, lazy, poor work ethic, victim-mentality, irresponsible, unreliable, etc. et al.

I sure am glad that @immamac propped up this stupid shitstain so he couldn't be crowdsourced again.

Good job, good effort!

[immamac 42,841]

3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I sure am glad that @immamac propped up this stupid shitstain so he couldn't be crowdsourced again.

Good job, good effort!

[jimmyjazz 45,902]

So what's the next user name?  TurtleVape?

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

24 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

So what's the next user name?  TurtleVape?

Back around January I called dibs on Honkey Vape.

[TreatyOak 16,313]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

All we are saying is that the focus on STEM should not be exclusive. It's better for the students and society to include subjects which promote critical thinking. Those subjects are the humanities.

Sorry for the delay. I was at a book burning. Today was the complete works of John Updike. Tomorrow is Sylvia Plath. 

I would be all for a full STEM program, plus a combo of trade schools skills. One of the very best high schools is Texas is primarily STEM, though, and I was wrong, it does have some humanities.  When I lived in NYC, the Bronx Center for Science and Mathematics, was and is the best public school, (although I'm sure Stuyvesant is still very good.) As their name and marketing tells you, those schools exist to be almost entirely focused on STEM. We need more of those and less humanities-focused programs.  

Finally, and I'm sure the academics could inform me, why can't STEM promote critical thinking? 

 

[jimmyjazz 45,902]

5 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

When I lived in NYC, the Bronx Center for Science and Mathematics, was and is the best public school, (although I'm sure Stuyvesant is still very good.) As their name and marketing tells you, those schools exist to be almost entirely focused on STEM.

Really?  Because . . . once more, with feeling . . . when I go to their website, they show 28 teachers, at least 13 of which are mostly focused on non-STEM curricula.

So, you know, you fucked up again.  

[Guest Lobo]

13 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

Sorry for the delay. I was at a book burning. Today was the complete works of John Updike. Tomorrow is Sylvia Plath. 

I would be all for a full STEM program, plus a combo of trade schools skills. One of the very best high schools is Texas is primarily STEM, though, and I was wrong, it does have some humanities.  When I lived in NYC, the Bronx Center for Science and Mathematics, was and is the best public school, (although I'm sure Stuyvesant is still very good.) As their name and marketing tells you, those schools exist to be almost entirely focused on STEM. We need more of those and less humanities-focused programs.  

Finally, and I'm sure the academics could inform me, why can't STEM promote critical thinking? 

 

Fair points, best public high school in Austin is a STEAM-focused campus.  Again though, I don't think folks are advocating for "humanities-focused" (your words, not mine), but rather all-around/well-rounded/blended---whatever you wanna call it.  We can't talk about alarmingly low literacy rates in low socio-economic schools and then think that more coding and electrician work is gonna solve for that.  But as we've all admitted, it's a resource issue.  But that's actually good news.  If the real setback was "our brains can't do both sides...so we just have to give up", that'd be disconcerting.  We consistently church out incredibly well-rounded kids in this country who if given half a chance, can succeed.  You would be absolutely thrilled to spend time with so many students just at UT who are Plan II & Computer Sciences or Plan II & Business Honors or Engineering & English.  It's not binary, don't know how else to say it.  

Broader access to trade schools and community colleges for all students, particularly those of color?  Absolutely.  Every fucking time.  But if we're talking about four year university, they don't have to be shoved into one camp or another.  Just do the math.  There are more than enough credit hours even in a four-year plan to get out with an incredibly rich and well-rounded experience.  

To your final point---of course STEM fields promote critical thinking.  Almost any type of education does.  But it can veer towards the rote.  One of my courses is specifically for non-finance majors.  I get students from liberal arts to nursing to social work to hard sciences to architecture.  They bring a very different analytical profile and I love it.  But in the end, my finance lecture is about finance which has been set in stone by maths and digits for a long, long while.  What I want them to do is figure out why people think the way they do.  We know why numbers do what they do.  The ten of 'em accepted dead end jobs millennia ago in exchange for some short-term fame.  But the skill of figuring out people's motivation to make novels, war, art, and to make history.  When you can put yourself into someone else's mind map, you are truly lethal.  I'm not talking about that cocktail party "Oh, I'm really good at reading people" bullshit.  I mean, connect the dots for me between the Koran and Lockheed.  

The most interesting thought leaders I know, and the most powerful people I know, did not just get good at engineering and then wait for their promotion.  

[safe sex 11,709]

31 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

One of the very best high schools is Texas is primarily STEM, though, and I was wrong, it does have some humanities.

If this school is so great whilst including the humanities, why are you so in favor of one that drops them altogether? It seems like this school is already producing your ideal. 

People initially had issue with your insistence on completely getting rid of the humanities, which is an objectively bad idea. The humanities are important because you have to approach problems within them from different angles, perspectives, and contexts. Math and science, and the trades that are dependent upon being able to implement said subjects, typically only need one approach to solve them, and it's usually in the form of some algorithm. This is especially true for the age group that we're considering here. Obv in the graduate levels, STEM all grows fuzzier with nuance.

Example from my own field (healthcare): the primary difference between an RN with an associate's degree (ADN) and an RN with a bachelor's (BSN) is the inclusion of leadership, research, and communications classes (and in my case, a history of nursing class), all heavily geared towards improving one's critical thinking and analysis skills, to reach the best possible answer out of a bevy of "right" answers. They include these humanities-rich classes because they make a nurse more well-rounded and capable of making the right decision in difficult circumstances. That is exactly what I was told in nursing school.

Or what Lobo said.

Edited April 4, 2022 by trauma babe
phrasing

[safe sex 11,709]

Also, thank you, @immamac. 

[Beau Vine 54,212]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:09 PM, TurkeyChew said:

I wouldn't think she would; I'm sure we would have heard about them. Behaviors associated with poor people with respect to classism and what drives discrimination and prejudice are mostly negative and mostly in opposition to what the hegemonic class holds up as ideal. They are negative stereotypes that serve to "other" and make villains of the poor in an "us vs. them" that even extends to the aspirational (e.g. ladder climbing ambitious poor identifying or otherwise acting as if they belong to a higher social status):

Antisocial behavior, loud, improper, messy, sloppy, vulgar, impolite, unhygienic/unclean, lazy, poor work ethic, victim-mentality, irresponsible, unreliable, etc. et al.

What's really so amazing about this post is that the bolded part is a fairly accurate description of me (especially unhygenic and poor work ethic), yet I have a couple of million dollars worth of assets to my name.  

[jimmyjazz 45,902]

17 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Fair points, best public high school in Austin is a STEAM-focused campus. 

Well, that's a bit of a stretch.  I mean, the name is literally "Liberal Arts and Science Academy".  Yeah, a lot of tech dorks go there, but so do other flavors as well.

[Guest Lobo]

Yes, I know.  I don't give a shit about the name.  But it does tilt slightly towards STEAM and it does receive well-deserved accolades.  

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

This whole debate is so gotdamn dumb. I am unaware of any state in the Union that doesn’t have a basic core curriculum that includes humanities and civics.  The fact that STEM/STEAM focused schools exist in no way changes that.  None of them are even allowed to issue diplomas without including basic history/literature/etc.  

Proposing we just eliminate those classes is as stupid as arguing that we should also have programs that don’t require a single math or science class.  The fact that educated people exist who can argue with a straight face that we need to just cut all history and civics is prima facia evidence that we aren’t doing enough instruction in those subjects. 

[TreatyOak 16,313]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:33 PM, trauma babe said:

If this school is so great whilst including the humanities, why are you so in favor of one that drops them altogether? It seems like this school is already producing your ideal. 

People initially had issue with your insistence on completely getting rid of the humanities, which is an objectively bad idea. The humanities are important because you have to approach problems within them from different angles, perspectives, and contexts. Math and science, and the trades that are dependent upon being able to implement said subjects, typically only need one approach to solve them, and it's usually in the form of some algorithm. This is especially true for the age group that we're considering here. Obv in the graduate levels, STEM all grows fuzzier with nuance.

Example from my own field (healthcare): the primary difference between an RN with an associate's degree (ADN) and an RN with a bachelor's (BSN) is the inclusion of leadership, research, and communications classes (and in my case, a history of nursing class), all heavily geared towards improving one's critical thinking and analysis skills, to reach the best possible answer out of a bevy of "right" answers. They include these humanities-rich classes because they make a nurse more well-rounded and capable of making the right decision in difficult circumstances. That is exactly what I was told in nursing school.

Or what Lobo said.

All good points, well stated. Thanks, and thanks for what you do. 

[TreatyOak 16,313]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:26 PM, Lobo said:

Fair points, best public high school in Austin is a STEAM-focused campus.  Again though, I don't think folks are advocating for "humanities-focused" (your words, not mine), but rather all-around/well-rounded/blended---whatever you wanna call it.  We can't talk about alarmingly low literacy rates in low socio-economic schools and then think that more coding and electrician work is gonna solve for that.  But as we've all admitted, it's a resource issue.  But that's actually good news.  If the real setback was "our brains can't do both sides...so we just have to give up", that'd be disconcerting.  We consistently church out incredibly well-rounded kids in this country who if given half a chance, can succeed.  You would be absolutely thrilled to spend time with so many students just at UT who are Plan II & Computer Sciences or Plan II & Business Honors or Engineering & English.  It's not binary, don't know how else to say it.  

Broader access to trade schools and community colleges for all students, particularly those of color?  Absolutely.  Every fucking time.  But if we're talking about four year university, they don't have to be shoved into one camp or another.  Just do the math.  There are more than enough credit hours even in a four-year plan to get out with an incredibly rich and well-rounded experience.  

To your final point---of course STEM fields promote critical thinking.  Almost any type of education does.  But it can veer towards the rote.  One of my courses is specifically for non-finance majors.  I get students from liberal arts to nursing to social work to hard sciences to architecture.  They bring a very different analytical profile and I love it.  But in the end, my finance lecture is about finance which has been set in stone by maths and digits for a long, long while.  What I want them to do is figure out why people think the way they do.  We know why numbers do what they do.  The ten of 'em accepted dead end jobs millennia ago in exchange for some short-term fame.  But the skill of figuring out people's motivation to make novels, war, art, and to make history.  When you can put yourself into someone else's mind map, you are truly lethal.  I'm not talking about that cocktail party "Oh, I'm really good at reading people" bullshit.  I mean, connect the dots for me between the Koran and Lockheed.  

The most interesting thought leaders I know, and the most powerful people I know, did not just get good at engineering and then wait for their promotion.  

Thanks for this great post. Well said and I can see your point-of-view and it informed me.  

[elfenix 34,231]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:44 PM, Beau Vine said:

What's really so amazing about this post is that the bolded part is a fairly accurate description of me (especially unhygenic and poor work ethic), yet I have a couple of million dollars worth of assets to my name.  

running a sugar baby ring sounds lucrative

[Bama Chick 28,596]

So “new guy” ditched the animalxtobacco naming convention, eh?

[fattyflattie 4,639]

39 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

So “new guy” ditched the animalxtobacco naming convention, eh?

If you are talking about TreatyOak, he’s been here for quite awhile. His wading into the CR cesspool is the only thing new. 

[Captainant 27,655]

11 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

If you are talking about TreatyOak, he’s been here for quite awhile. His wading into the CR cesspool is the only thing new. 

Lol the cesspool of teaching history and the humanities to more than just white folks in private schools? Not sure this is the misguided argument to stan for

[YChang 3,443]

41 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Lol the cesspool of teaching history and the humanities to more than just white folks in private schools? Not sure this is the misguided argument to stan for

I'm assuming it was meant as a catchall for the CR period versus this topic.

[fattyflattie 4,639]

Just now, YChang said:

I'm assuming it was meant as a catchall for the CR period versus this topic.

CR vs CRT, no? 

[TreatyOak 16,313]

6 hours ago, Captainant said:

Lol the cesspool of teaching history and the humanities to more than just white folks in private schools? Not sure this is the misguided argument to stan for

[fattyflattie 4,639]

That’s a Colmesneil special right there. 

[Nivek 16,923]

On 4/4/2022 at 8:54 AM, TreatyOak said:

So @Pancho and @David Dennison, based on your above comments, I guess you advocate shutting the South Texas ISD Science Academy based on the fact that the engineers, doctors and scientists in this low-income community that start here are purposely being marginalized by society by not getting to learn all the stuff that white kids get to learn. 

 

None of this deserves neg reps.   This is a genuine disagreement and not meeting of the minds.  Not some trolling/shitposting that warrants.   

[TwiceHorn 31,451]

Kind of an interesting thing.  The Boy Scouts, probably Girl Scouts too, have "Citizenship" merit badges.

There used to be Citizenship in the Community, Nation, and World.  At least Citizenship in the Nation was required to be an Eagle Scout.

They all required understanding of history and government, i.e. civics.

I always thought it interesting and appropriate that it was labeled "Citizenship."

ETA:  Looking around, they have added a Citizenship in  Society merit badge that seems to emphasize the importance of inclusiveness and diversity.  Librul fehgs.

Edited April 7, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

48 minutes ago, Nivek said:

None of this deserves neg reps.   This is a genuine disagreement and not meeting of the minds.  Not some trolling/shitposting that warrants.   

Eh. context matters. @TreatyOak was asked by at least four posters if he understood the implication that his ideal plan would eliminate teaching of history to POC and deny them entrance into universities. He ignored this every time, instead challenging others to explain what they did for POC, implying that he was above criticism.

Now he is certainly under no legal, moral, or ethical obligation to answer questions. But to follow this up with martyrdom, claiming he's being called a racist when there were no such claims, then trying to buttress his claim with a school that does not do what he wants it do to (eliminate all liberal arts), all while saying how willing he is to debate, and it looks like pretty bad-faith posting.

I didn't neg rep this to be sure but again, this post is not in a vacuum.

[TreatyOak 16,313]

7 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

But to follow this up with martyrdom, claiming he's being called a racist when there were no such claims, then trying to buttress his claim with a school that does not do what he wants it do to (eliminate all liberal arts), all while saying how willing he is to debate, and it looks like pretty bad-faith posting.

What The Buck: "That post has a very “I’m not a racist, but...” quality to it."  

tchookem: "...a steady diet of right-wing anti-intellectualism, has gotten him to a place that he feels comfortable saying we don't need no social studies."

Pancho: "Well, “to take it a step further” he’s basically saying Black and Brown kids don’t need to learn their history in this country and don’t bother going to a college like UT and instead just learn a trade because that’s the only thing you’re good for while simultaneously stereotyping all urban public schools in America." 

Sure sounds I am being accused of racism to me.  

 

 

[Captainant 27,655]

2 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

Sure sounds I am being accused of racism to me.  

If that's all you got out of the two pages of discussion on why what you proposed is horribly regressive and echoes racist policies of the past... I'd say you're more interested in being a victim than actually discussing anything.

[Guest Lobo]

4 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

What The Buck: "That post has a very “I’m not a racist, but...” quality to it."  

tchookem: "...a steady diet of right-wing anti-intellectualism, has gotten him to a place that he feels comfortable saying we don't need no social studies."

Pancho: "Well, “to take it a step further” he’s basically saying Black and Brown kids don’t need to learn their history in this country and don’t bother going to a college like UT and instead just learn a trade because that’s the only thing you’re good for while simultaneously stereotyping all urban public schools in America." 

Sure sounds I am being accused of racism to me.  

 

 

FWIW---being labeled as "racist" in real life is real fucking serious to me.  It's just a notch below pedophile or wife-beater, real fucking serious to me.  Despite this thread and my experience in the space of working in education, and as a biracial student years ago, I don't know you in real life so not my place to label you as racist.  Having said that, based on your posting here...you are what I feel comfortably calling "simple."  And I don't mean that in a nice way.  But again, to the road ahead (clink, clink)...

[Pancho 44,759]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

None of this deserves neg reps.   This is a genuine disagreement and not meeting of the minds.  Not some trolling/shitposting that warrants.   

No, that’s not what he was doing with that comment.  That wasn’t a disagreement; it was a flat out assumption based on pretty much nothing of what we were originally talking about.  He was basically just making shit up with that post. 

[jimmyjazz 45,902]

I think there's a certain trollishness to @TreatyOak.  He floated a pair of high schools, one in NYC, one in the TX valley, as both being STEM-exclusive, and it took almost no effort whatsoever to debunk those claims.

He's either a troll or (as Lobo says) "simple".

[Pancho 44,759]

18 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

What The Buck: "That post has a very “I’m not a racist, but...” quality to it."  

tchookem: "...a steady diet of right-wing anti-intellectualism, has gotten him to a place that he feels comfortable saying we don't need no social studies."

Pancho: "Well, “to take it a step further” he’s basically saying Black and Brown kids don’t need to learn their history in this country and don’t bother going to a college like UT and instead just learn a trade because that’s the only thing you’re good for while simultaneously stereotyping all urban public schools in America." 

Sure sounds I am being accused of racism to me.  

 

 

You proposed we should stop teaching “History and Social Studies” in urban schools and replace those with STEM/coding classes. Do you not see what this is indirectly saying? 

You also said we should “stop teaching the wrongs.”  Can you not see what this is indirectly saying?  

[Nivek 16,923]

1 minute ago, Pancho said:

No, that’s not what he was doing with that comment.  That wasn’t a disagreement; it was a flat out assumption based on pretty much nothing of what we were originally talking about.  He was basically just making shit up with that post. 

I kind of have a higher bar for issuing the negative rep.  It really has to be something egregious or from a troll/shitposter or maybe a drunk going off or for a poster who has a history for being a shit.   Treaty Oak might be wrong here, but he doesn't seem like someone who is coming from a bad place.   

[TreatyOak 16,313]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

If that's all you got out of the two pages of discussion on why what you proposed is horribly regressive and echoes racist policies of the past... I'd say you're more interested in being a victim than actually discussing anything.

The South Texas ISD Science Academy was formed to give the undervalued people of that community an opportunity to develop the useful skills that will give them access to the great careers in technology and medicine and they are highly successful. It wasn't formed to teach kid more history. Would you regard what they are doing as regressive and racist? I think it is amazing and really smart.

I would like to see this model expanded for people who are marginalized in our society, with less emphasis on the humanities, as I consider the skills they can acquire through STEM to be more valuable today.  

[Nivek 16,923]

35 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Eh. context matters. @TreatyOak was asked by at least four posters if he understood the implication that his ideal plan would eliminate teaching of history to POC and deny them entrance into universities. He ignored this every time, instead challenging others to explain what they did for POC, implying that he was above criticism.

Now he is certainly under no legal, moral, or ethical obligation to answer questions. But to follow this up with martyrdom, claiming he's being called a racist when there were no such claims, then trying to buttress his claim with a school that does not do what he wants it do to (eliminate all liberal arts), all while saying how willing he is to debate, and it looks like pretty bad-faith posting.

I didn't neg rep this to be sure but again, this post is not in a vacuum.

From his perspective it can be a bit overwhelming to try to carry on a conversation with multiple people and things get missed.   I tend to give the benefit of the doubt.   

When I think of a bad faith poster, Johnny Sack comes to mind.  OnBoard was kind of like this at one time, but seems to have mellowed and I am glad he wasn't crowdsourced.   Treaty Oak may be wrong, but he isn't in this category.   As someone who has been piled on (see the Man fights chimp thread), I recall how few people would actually read and understand my intent vs. what they responded to.   I claimed that the average man could and should dominate any dog/wolf and next thing I know people were thinking I said I was billy badass ready to pound Ravage to submission.   It took several attempts of me saying "YOU could dominate any dog/wolf" did people understand what I was saying and it only seemed to resonate because some might have perceived it as flattery, I suspect.  That and a few articles about men beating a wolf to death or kicking the shit out of a mountain lion/coyote (IIRC).  

 

[Guest Lobo]

So wait, you're gonna fight TreatyOak or a Wolf-Chimp hybrid?  Or both?  

[TreatyOak 16,313]

32 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I think there's a certain trollishness to @TreatyOak.  He floated a pair of high schools, one in NYC, one in the TX valley, as both being STEM-exclusive, and it took almost no effort whatsoever to debunk those claims.

He's either a troll or (as Lobo says) "simple".

You are correct in that I was wrong in claiming that they are teaching STEM exclusively. Hey, I admit it. However, they exist primarily to teach STEM to people who have previously been denied careers in science, technology and medicine and they are doing an amazing job of it. They weren't formed to teach more history.

Today, we are failing to prepare kids in our inner cities and as you pointed out, low-income rural communities for relevant careers today. We could repeat these amazing success stories from these STEM-focused schools by following their model. 

And yeah, I'm pretty "simple," as my wife would surely attest, lol.  

Edited April 7, 2022 by TreatyOak

[Captainant 27,655]

10 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

The South Texas ISD Science Academy was formed to give the undervalued people of that community an opportunity to develop the useful skills that will give them access to the great careers in technology and medicine and they are highly successful. It wasn't formed to teach kid more history. Would you regard what they are doing as regressive and racist? I think it is amazing and really smart.

I would like to see this model expanded for people who are marginalized in our society, with less emphasis on the humanities, as I consider the skills they can acquire through STEM to be more valuable today.  

I went to a STEM magnet program in middle school and a bunch of my friends continued on to the STEM magnet highschools in our district. I was learning trig in 6th grade and using it to calculate the altitude of the flight of a rocket I built over the semester.

But then we also used that trig to study the ancient Egyptian pyramids, and used that as a springboard into other social sciences and studies. And then later in the semester, used it again to build a trebuchet and calculate how far it would throw a tennis ball. But the rest of the curriculum used it as an opportunity to study medieval history, literature, and medicine. Hell we had a project to create a book about herbal medicine in folklore, and I've genuinely used some of that knowledge as an adult while camping and living life.

 

Point being, it's wholistic and inclusive. It's not the STEM ONLY emphasis that you continue to fallaciously push. In fact, the humanities (namely music) are fantastic interfaces to apply their STEM knowledge towards other fields and better apply and generalize their knowledge, rather than constraining their knowledge and life experience to a single perspective that you, a well-meaning white man, decides for them.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Captainant

[TwiceHorn 31,451]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

None of this deserves neg reps.   This is a genuine disagreement and not meeting of the minds.  Not some trolling/shitposting that warrants.   

I don't know about negs, but I do dislike the constant labeling of people as trolls.

The recital of right wing "talking points" that are easily debunked is irritating, but it's not full-on trolling.

Being wrong, even pretty obviously and easily proven wrong is still not trolling.

Drive-by shitposting is another matter, but it still isn't trolling.