Critical Race Theory policy in hiring at UT

[TwiceHorn 31454]

8 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

I already said I didn't understand it well. But isn't the underlying idea that to understand and address the plight of African Americans you must first accept that the government and institutions of the United States were set up for the purpose of ensuring white hegemony? And that the United States remains a society founded on white supremacy? Is that not the thrust of CRT? One thing's for sure, the government and institutions of Egypt, for example, were not created by white supremacists for the purpose of perpetuating white supremacy. So I question CRT's utility as a universal paradigm. 

It's not limited to America.

CRT aims to find racial inequity wherever it exists and demonstrate how and why it exists.  It so happens that a lot of the scholarship occurs in the US studying racial inequity in the US, but it is by no means exclusively applicable to the US.

There is probably more to unpack here than in other countries, though.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

11 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

I already said I didn't understand it well. But isn't the underlying idea that to understand and address the plight of African Americans you must first accept that the government and institutions of the United States were set up for the purpose of ensuring white hegemony? And that the United States remains a society founded on white supremacy? Is that not the thrust of CRT? One thing's for sure, the government and institutions of Egypt, for example, were not created by white supremacists for the purpose of perpetuating white supremacy. So I question CRT's utility as a universal paradigm. 

Are there different races in Egypt?

Is there a legal system in Egypt?

If the answers are yes, then one could apply CRT in Egypt.  One could use CRT to understand the legal system’s role in promoting systemic racism in that country.

[TwiceHorn 31454]

On 6/11/2021 at 4:22 PM, Catdaddyhorn said:

 

 

Christ on a cracker.

To be fair, though, I doubt many or any of the people pushing that were educated in Southlake-Carroll ISD.  They were probably educated elsewhere in our great(ly regarded) state.

[Bruno Sardine 147]

16 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Are there different races in Egypt?

Is there a legal system in Egypt?

If the answers are yes, then one could apply CRT in Egypt.  One could use CRT to understand the legal system’s role in promoting systemic racism in that country.

Thanks. Has someone done that? Used CRT to explain systemic racism in Egypt? Feel free to point me in that direction. It would help me to understand it better.

[Bruno Sardine 147]

By the way, I thought someone might ask me what I think. But since no one did – and not that anyone cares - I think CRT is ultimately a form of mental masturbation. It errs by focusing on the symptoms, rather than on the disease that causes the symptoms. The underlying disease is the same in Egypt, the USA, whatever country you care to name. You can talk yourself blue in the face about legal systems, banking systems, education systems, etc. But you’re not addressing the underlying problem. Those things are just symptoms. 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

2 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

lol Y’all arguing Donkey’s sock account.

Don't be daft.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

59 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's not limited to America.

CRT aims to find racial inequity wherever it exists and demonstrate how and why it exists.  It so happens that a lot of the scholarship occurs in the US studying racial inequity in the US, but it is by no means exclusively applicable to the US.

There is probably more to unpack here than in other countries, though.

The one thing I agree the most with respect to CRT (at least as I understand it from that tweet storm someone linked for me) is that race is a social construct. There is no such thing as different races. There is one race: the human race. That's a cornerstone of teaching in the ole Donkey household.

Edited June 13, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[TwiceHorn 31454]

28 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

By the way, I thought someone might ask me what I think. But since no one did – and not that anyone cares - I think CRT is ultimately a form of mental masturbation. It errs by focusing on the symptoms, rather than on the disease that causes the symptoms. The underlying disease is the same in Egypt, the USA, whatever country you care to name. You can talk yourself blue in the face about legal systems, banking systems, education systems, etc. But you’re not addressing the underlying problem. Those things are just symptoms. 

Well, symptoms are often fatal.

And I think part of the point of CRT is that there are a goodly number of folks who don't realize that the symptoms/inequities exist and would eliminate them if they could.

[washparkhorn 9939]

42 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Thanks. Has someone done that? Used CRT to explain systemic racism in Egypt? Feel free to point me in that direction. It would help me to understand it better.

Japan/CRT:

https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=191017121025029003087067092080123117118011008021008010118087102004104064108069079105024021120009040036108011075127126114127086110055007050032007071065108069118016094000075000095120125109011093117115007025115019075064086106067096004028070029093072031124&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE

 

[jimmyjazz 45907]

1 hour ago, Bruno Sardine said:

I already said I didn't understand it well.

You sure have issued a lot of definitive judgments on CRT for someone who doesn't understand it well.  I'm not sure, but it almost seems like you aren't arguing in good faith.  Crazy.

[Bruno Sardine 147]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

You sure have issued a lot of definitive judgments on CRT for someone who doesn't understand it well.  I'm not sure, but it almost seems like you aren't arguing in good faith.  Crazy.

It’s unfortunate that you feel that way, Jimmy. I think you’ll find my ideas are my own. I’m not parroting anybody. I’m not arguing that CRT is a Marxist plot or that it threatens to destroy the fabric of the USA or any of that. For someone who has taken the trouble to discover that I “have issued a lot of definitive judgments on CRT” – but neglect to reference a single one of them to which you take exception… I’m not sure, but it almost seems like you aren't arguing in good faith.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Bruno Sardine

[Bruno Sardine 147]

1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

Japan/CRT:

https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=191017121025029003087067092080123117118011008021008010118087102004104064108069079105024021120009040036108011075127126114127086110055007050032007071065108069118016094000075000095120125109011093117115007025115019075064086106067096004028070029093072031124&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE

 

Thanks. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

You sure have issued a lot of definitive judgments on CRT for someone who doesn't understand it well.

More conservatives jUsT aSkInG qUeStIoNs

[Bruno Sardine 147]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, symptoms are often fatal.

And I think part of the point of CRT is that there are a goodly number of folks who don't realize that the symptoms/inequities exist and would eliminate them if they could.

That's where, from my perspective, this discussion is so bizarre. To read this thread, to hear public discussion on this subject, you would never know that curriculum standards in all the 50 states already mandate coverage of slavery, Jim Crow, the genocide of Native Americans, etc. Some of you speak as if the historical events upon which CRT rests its conclusions are not the very same events already being taught in public schools.

https://lor2.gadoe.org/gadoe/file/6d0fa279-21d4-4f08-aaa0-9f0e5f3ad6bf/1/Social-Studies-United-States-History-Georgia-Standards.pdf

Here, for example, are some of the standards for high school American History in Georgia (not in perfect chronological order):

Connect major domestic issues to their social effects including the passage of civil rights legislation and Johnson’s Great Society, following the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

Describe the impact of television on American culture including the presidential debates (Kennedy/Nixon, 1960), news coverage of the Civil Rights Movement, the moon landing,and the war in Vietnam.

Investigate the growth, influence, and tactics of civil rights groups, Martin Luther King, Jr., the Letter from Birmingham Jail, the I Have a Dream Speech, and Cesar Chavez.

Describe the social and political turmoil of 1968 including the reactions to assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert F. Kennedy, the Tet Offensive, and the presidential election.

Connect major domestic issues to their social effects including the G.I. Bill, Truman’s
integration policies, McCarthyism, the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act, and Brown v. Board of Education.

Connect the decision of Plessy v. Ferguson to the expansion of Jim Crow laws and the formation of the NAACP.

Describe the significance of the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth amendments.

Explain the Black Codes, the Ku Klux Klan, and other forms of resistance to racial equality during Reconstruction.

Explain the Plains Indians’ resistance to western expansion of the United States and the consequences of their resistance.

Explore the relationship between slavery, growing north-south divisions, and
westward expansion that led to the outbreak of the Civil War.

Evaluate the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the failure of popular sovereignty, Scott v. Sanford,John Brown’s Raid on Harper’s Ferry, and the election of 1860 as events leading to the Civil War.

Explain Jacksonian Democracy, including expanding suffrage, the Nullification Crisis and states’ rights, and the Indian Removal Act.

Explain how the significance of slavery grew in American politics including slave
rebellions and the rise of abolitionism.

Explain the key features of the Constitution, including the Great Compromise, limited
government, and the Three-Fifths Compromise.

Describe the Middle Passage, the growth of the African population and their contributions, including but not limited to architecture, agriculture, and foodways.

Examine the roles of women, American Indians, and enslaved and free Blacks in
supporting the war effort.

[Satchel 6938]

Yeah, I’m dubious about the effectiveness of these mandates. The history teacher at Nolan I referenced earlier covered the Civil Right Act too.

[Bruno Sardine 147]

21 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

More conservatives jUsT aSkInG qUeStIoNs

Lame. Offer it up then. I said CRT fails as a universal paradigm. I highlighted a Muslim society, Egypt, with strict religious safeguards against racism. I provided an article documenting the kind of racism faced by blacks in Egypt. I asserted that CRT sheds little to no light on racial disparities in Egypt. So rebut me. Assert the contrary and provide facts to support your argument. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

15 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Lame. Offer it up then. I said CRT fails as a universal paradigm. I highlighted a Muslim society, Egypt, with strict religious safeguards against racism. I provided an article documenting the kind of racism faced by blacks in Egypt. I asserted that CRT sheds little to no light on racial disparities in Egypt. So rebut me. Assert the contrary and provide facts to support your argument. 

is CRT intended to be "a universal paradigm"?  (I'm not sure "paradigm" is the word to use here anyway)

Quote

This issue – the disparity between blacks and non-blacks – is a world-wide issue. Want to solve it? Come up with ideas that explain the disparity in global terms. 

This is absurd. 

Quote

The underlying disease is the same in Egypt, the USA, whatever country you care to name. 

outline it for us

[TwiceHorn 31454]

28 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Lame. Offer it up then. I said CRT fails as a universal paradigm. I highlighted a Muslim society, Egypt, with strict religious safeguards against racism. I provided an article documenting the kind of racism faced by blacks in Egypt. I asserted that CRT sheds little to no light on racial disparities in Egypt. So rebut me. Assert the contrary and provide facts to support your argument. 

CRT is more of a discipline.  Nothing prevents its techniques from being applied in Egypt.  It just hasn't as far as I know.

Fundamentally, CRT holds that a government and society "founded" or erected by one race is going to fail to address the interests of a minority race.  If you throw in a bit of overt racism into the mix, say, in the form of discriminatory laws, you're probably going to find that that racism has crept all through that society and its mechanisms.

 

[TwiceHorn 31454]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

is CRT intended to be "a universal paradigm"?  (I'm not sure "paradigm" is the word to use here anyway)

This is absurd. 

outline it for us

I suppose he's trying to say that being racist or having racists in society is fundamental to human nature, which it is.

But it's also the lowest expression of human nature, it's animal instinct and not much more.  RIght in the neighborhood of "eat, drink, fuck, fight."

If racism is ever to be overcome, people are going to have to engage their intellect on it.  CRT is most assuredly one way to do it.

[tchookem 3900]

bUt WhAT abOUt eGYpt?

[washparkhorn 9939]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I suppose he's trying to say that being racist or having racists in society is fundamental to human nature, which it is.

But it's also the lowest expression of human nature, it's animal instinct and not much more.  RIght in the neighborhood of "eat, drink, fuck, fight."

If racism is ever to be overcome, people are going to have to engage their intellect on it.  CRT is most assuredly one way to do it.

Well said.   

1 minute ago, tchookem said:

bUt WhAT abOUt eGYpt?

I provided him with a neutral intersection of CRT analysis and Japan. If he seeks answers, they are there. No bets on the outcome, but I remain convinced humans are inherently good.

AI is waiting for an answer, so if we could hurry this up . . . 

[Bruno Sardine 147]

11 minutes ago, tchookem said:

bUt WhAT abOUt eGYpt?

 

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

CRT is more of a discipline.  Nothing prevents its techniques from being applied in Egypt.  It just hasn't as far as I know.

Then why hasn't it been applied in Egypt? Is not the fundamental plank in the CRT platform that the key to addressing racism is to reform institutions? That racism is structural, institutional? Mock me for pointing out at least one exception to this theory/discipline, Egypt. (Not you, someone else.) But religion is a fundamental part of the societal structure of Egypt. It is simply impossible to overplay how fundamental Islam is to Egyptian culture, including its legal traditions. So I'm asserting the theory doesn't apply to Egypt. Nor to Saudi Arabia, the UAE or any other number of Muslim countries. So except for the fact that CRT is inapplicable to a substantial portion of the world population - sure, it's a great theory with a bright future.

[washparkhorn 9939]

Just now, Bruno Sardine said:

Then why hasn't it been applied in Egypt

New perspective for the advancement of science. This happens in science.

Read what I linked. 

[Bruno Sardine 147]

3 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

I provided him with a neutral intersection of CRT analysis and Japan. If he seeks answers, they are there. No bets on the outcome, but I remain convinced humans are inherently good.

I didn't mean to be dismissive by not saying more about the link you so kindly provided. My next question would be, how do you think this line of inquiry will be received in Japan? Or do you think that's even a relevant question? If you don't think it's a relevant question, then we're talking at cross-purposes here. I'm talking about the future of the idea, and its likelihood to gain traction outside of the USA. In my opinion, it will not gain traction in Japan. It will be rejected, and it will be rejected furiously. It may have adherents in Germany, but, ultimately, it will not gain traction there either, nor in many other European countries. I think, for the most part, it is DOA, for the reasons I have outlined here. The disparity in black/non-black outcomes  is a world-wide phenomena. It is very convenient to say, "but you can apply CRT to other places." Fine, apply it to Egypt. Apply it to Saudi Arabia. Apply to Morocco. The theory is limited. 

[Bruno Sardine 147]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I suppose he's trying to say that being racist or having racists in society is fundamental to human nature, which it is.

But it's also the lowest expression of human nature, it's animal instinct and not much more.  RIght in the neighborhood of "eat, drink, fuck, fight."

If racism is ever to be overcome, people are going to have to engage their intellect on it.  CRT is most assuredly one way to do it.

Maybe. Look, you could well be right. I happen to disagree. I appreciate your civility and your willingness to engage in open-minded discussion. My response to you is: Is fucking going away? Is drinking going away? Is fighting going away? 

How do you purport to change human nature? Do you think CRT has any hope of accomplishing that? Because I don't. 

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

3 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

My next question would be, how do you think this line of inquiry will be received in Japan? 

I would seek that information from someone well acquainted with critical theory and Japanese culture. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

1 minute ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Maybe. Look, you could well be right. I happen to disagree. I appreciate your civility and your willingness to engage in open-minded discussion. My response to you is: Is fucking going away? Is drinking going away? Is fighting going away? 

How do you purport to change human nature? Do you think CRT has any hope of accomplishing that? Because I don't. 

 

Series question - did you grow up in an area dominated by the french? 

[TwiceHorn 31454]

6 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Maybe. Look, you could well be right. I happen to disagree. I appreciate your civility and your willingness to engage in open-minded discussion. My response to you is: Is fucking going away? Is drinking going away? Is fighting going away? 

How do you purport to change human nature? Do you think CRT has any hope of accomplishing that? Because I don't. 

 

Critical theory examines how the bad parts of human nature get embedded in systems where they don't have to be embedded.  

Here, I think, may be where I diverge from some CRT:  Just because a government is "erected' by a white majority doesn't mean it is inherently or inevitably racist.**  But when a white government is erected by white people in an environment and era that is overtly racist and embraces subjugation of an entire race, that's going to work its way into the systems and structures of that government and society in ways the racist "erectors" or founders even didn't fully appreciate, much less the later comers that are trying to eradicate the racism.

**I think some CRT believes that it is inherently and inevitably true.  Maybe it is, but I think that's a pretty nihilistic view of human nature, which is where that criticism of it creeps in.  While I acknowledge that protection and realization of self-interest is strongly embodied in our government, I have never considered it essential to my "protection" or self-interest or that of my family or peers to gain at the expense of others of another race.  I do acknowledge that some aspects of realizing self-interest (an inartful perhaps articulation of "capitalism") comes at the expense of others, it's usually an abstract other, not a specific other.

So, there are some people that are going to remain racist no matter what.  I agree with you there.  But, I think it's possible to mostly marginalize those people.  What I see CRT doing is identifying relics or artifacts of racism that get built into the system because the system was created in an era where racism was not marginalized.

Some of those artifacts can only be addressed by changing personal attitudes or removing those holding those attitudes from power, and that may be a tall order in a lot of cases.  Other times, the artifacts are built into systems or structures that need to be refined or rebuilt.

Let's give an example that kind of predates CRT, but is right down CRTs alley:  juries.  In retrospect, at least, it's fairly obvious that there is a huge potential for the indulgence of overt and very subtle racism by juries in their deliberations.  That one is going to be hard to address, because it deals with people's internal attitudes and beliefs they may not even realize they hold.  But you know what we can do?  Tinker with the jury selection system to minimize the possibility of getting a tainted jury.  Prosecutors may not have been overtly thinking "let's hang this nagger" when striking black jurors from a black defendant's jury.  Some were, but others were just trying to win their convictions (and there may be a lot of subtle racism involved in how the prosecutors came to believe that securing the conviction is just or righteous and so on and so forth).  But "we" didn't address this issue until 1986, and it isn't fully solved yet.  That system, as well as others in the justice system, still need some work.

Those that have followed me over the years probably see this as a "reversal" of position.  And I guess to some extent it is.  I am guilty of believing that racists had been mostly marginalized in this country.  Recent events have proven that not only are they not marginalized, but they are sufficiently numerous and loud that they are on the verge of taking over in a minority-majority role.  I'm also guilty of believing, to an extent, that "our work is done" with regard to civil rights.  Yes, we've done a lot of the work in broad strokes, but there's a lot of fine tuning that remains.  It's time to get to the nitty gritty.

I see CRT, or aspects of it, as having value in "getting to the nitty gritty."  I don't have to agree with it 100% up and down the line, but it has value.  What I see proposed in DEI initiatives and real, concrete things being labeled CRT by the hysterical doesn't tend to include the more extreme aspects of some CRT.  I tend to agree that extreme aspects of CRT may be a bit much for even high school students and don't endorse it being taught at that level.

And at the university level, I have zero problem in full-on CRT being taught.  College students should be able to handle it.  I got a dose of it in the late 80s in law school and thought parts of it were fairly ridiculous, but it was thought-provoking for sure, has stuck with me for 30 years, and allows me to think about it and discuss it with some degree of insight.  And that's valuable. Period.

Edited June 13, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Neonmoon 38129]

19 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

There are black people outside the United States, no? Black people in Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Tunisia, Algeria, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Ecuador, Columbia, Costa Rica and many other countries, correct? Are the disparities between blacks and non-blacks in economic outcomes, health outcomes, education outcomes, etc. unique to the United States or do we find the same disparities all over the world? (Rhetorical questions, so far.) 

For the record, I don’t believe the creator created inferior types/categories of humans based on outward physical characteristics, and my biological children aren’t white. I confess to not being terribly familiar with CRT, but as a universal lens through which to examine racial inequalities it seems limited, since these same inequalities are found the world over and CRT, as I understand it, applies specifically to America. But perhaps I’m mistaken. Happy to be enlightened.

Enlighten me 

17 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Thanks. But I am under the impression that CRT involves extensive analysis of and  emphasis on topics such as the GI Bill and US government housing policies after World War II. Which is good, which certainly lends insight into the problems African-Americans have faced and continue to face in the USA. But it doesn't tell us much about other countries, does it? Or perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I am would point out parallel developments and policies in other societies. In the absence of someone's ability to do that and do it with specificity, I question the universality of CRT and would suggest that its adherents are somewhat provincial in their thinking. 

Just asking questions 

16 hours ago, Pancho said:

You do realize the analysis on other countries issues thru the lens of CRT has been written about and researched, right? Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and therefore you should make baseless and incorrect claims as if they are fact to you.

Instead, you should do more research. It’s out there.

Yes it exists. Look it up yourself you lazy fuck 

16 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Then you don’t understand my argument, which is no doubt my fault. Let’s take North Africa, because the societies are very different from ours and CRT does not apply there. Pick your country. Egypt, Tunisia, etc. There are racial disparities between blacks and non-blacks. Now, is it your position that this is just a coincidence? That the underlying causes of the plight of blacks in North Africa are wholly separate and distinct from the underlying causes of the plight of blacks in the USA?  That these are unrelated phenomena? Because that would be an absurd position to take. They are related phenomena. 

Now, if they are related phenomena, and you propose – as you propose here – to try to understand racial disparities in America, then the ideas you propose should be applicable to North Africa. Or anywhere else, I would argue, since the disparity between blacks and non-blacks is universal. Unlike CRT!. 

Surely you can see that. If you truly want to fix something, you have to have the right tools. This issue – the disparity between blacks and non-blacks – is a world-wide issue. Want to solve it? Come up with ideas that explain the disparity in global terms. CRT doesn’t do that. Therefore CRT is not going to take you very far in solving the issue. 
 

this is my favorite part. literally points out the answer and the says the answer is impossible just because 

13 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

I already said I didn't understand it well. But isn't the underlying idea that to understand and address the plight of African Americans you must first accept that the government and institutions of the United States were set up for the purpose of ensuring white hegemony? And that the United States remains a society founded on white supremacy? Is that not the thrust of CRT? One thing's for sure, the government and institutions of Egypt, for example, were not created by white supremacists for the purpose of perpetuating white supremacy. So I question CRT's utility as a universal paradigm. 

Keeps trying to equate falsely the black experience in US is exactly the same in Egypt

13 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Are there different races in Egypt?

Is there a legal system in Egypt?

If the answers are yes, then one could apply CRT in Egypt.  One could use CRT to understand the legal system’s role in promoting systemic racism in that country.

More common sense ignored by Troll 

12 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Thanks. Has someone done that? Used CRT to explain systemic racism in Egypt? Feel free to point me in that direction. It would help me to understand it better.

Creates false equivalency and wants people to Google for him 

12 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

By the way, I thought someone might ask me what I think. But since no one did – and not that anyone cares - I think CRT is ultimately a form of mental masturbation. It errs by focusing on the symptoms, rather than on the disease that causes the symptoms. The underlying disease is the same in Egypt, the USA, whatever country you care to name. You can talk yourself blue in the face about legal systems, banking systems, education systems, etc. But you’re not addressing the underlying problem. Those things are just symptoms. 

Again

9 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Lame. Offer it up then. I said CRT fails as a universal paradigm. I highlighted a Muslim society, Egypt, with strict religious safeguards against racism. I provided an article documenting the kind of racism faced by blacks in Egypt. I asserted that CRT sheds little to no light on racial disparities in Egypt. So rebut me. Assert the contrary and provide facts to support your argument. 

Prove my negative wrong. I offered up no evidence of my claim. You have to do the legwork 

 

[bad_teammate 13195]

8 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Then why hasn't it been applied in Egypt?

 

You're going to pardon me, bud, if I don't just accept your confident assumption that critical racial analysis doesn't happen in Egypt.

You're a guy who calls himself "Bruno Sardine" on a fucking UT sports message board. Like me, you have no idea.

 

Quote

But religion is a fundamental part of the societal structure of Egypt. It is simply impossible to overplay how fundamental Islam is to Egyptian culture, including its legal traditions.

See above.

[bad_teammate 13195]

40 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Prove my negative wrong. I offered up no evidence of my claim. You have to do the legwork 

Yep.

You can always tell people who spend their lives always around people who agree with them* by how confidently they say shit they absolutely have no way of knowing. So used to being agreed with in circlejerks and echo chambers.

 

* - Or around people who do not give a shit about what they're saying so never argue back. "Yes honey you're right honey will you please take out the trash now that you've owned the libs?"

Edited June 13, 2021 by bad_teammate

[jimmyjazz 45907]

11 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

It’s unfortunate that you feel that way, Jimmy. I think you’ll find my ideas are my own. I’m not parroting anybody. I’m not arguing that CRT is a Marxist plot or that it threatens to destroy the fabric of the USA or any of that. For someone who has taken the trouble to discover that I “have issued a lot of definitive judgments on CRT” – but neglect to reference a single one of them to which you take exception… I’m not sure, but it almost seems like you aren't arguing in good faith.

You're floundering.

Quote

Let’s take North Africa, because the societies are very different from ours and CRT does not apply there.

 

14 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Has someone done that? Used CRT to explain systemic racism in Egypt? Feel free to point me in that direction. It would help me to understand it better.

 

So you assert that CRT "does not apply" in North Africa, and then you ask if someone has tried to use CRT to explain systemic racism in Egypt.  I question the validity of your assertion.

Back up.  Examine "critical theory".  Look at it as a tool or a method for understanding power structures in society.  At least recognize that it is not designed to examine society in the US . . . it can be used anywhere in the world.

Then narrow your focus to "critical race theory".  One should expect some different conclusions when used to examine a Muslim African society as opposed to a largely Christian western society, but that doesn't render it useless.  If I use a shovel to dig a hole in my back yard, and then I use it to dig a hole on Galveston beach, the fact that I end up with a pile of dirt and a pile of sand doesn't render the shovel useless.

[Poe It Up 126]

I’m still drunk from last night, why in the fuck am I commenting about CRT on my Sunday morning? Stupid. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Poe It Up
Fuck this

[wildcat09 29352]

20 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Then you don’t understand my argument, which is no doubt my fault. Let’s take North Africa, because the societies are very different from ours and CRT does not apply there. Pick your country. Egypt, Tunisia, etc. There are racial disparities between blacks and non-blacks. Now, is it your position that this is just a coincidence? That the underlying causes of the plight of blacks in North Africa are wholly separate and distinct from the underlying causes of the plight of blacks in the USA?  That these are unrelated phenomena? Because that would be an absurd position to take. They are related phenomena. 

Now, if they are related phenomena, and you propose – as you propose here – to try to understand racial disparities in America, then the ideas you propose should be applicable to North Africa. Or anywhere else, I would argue, since the disparity between blacks and non-blacks is universal. Unlike CRT!. 

Surely you can see that. If you truly want to fix something, you have to have the right tools. This issue – the disparity between blacks and non-blacks – is a world-wide issue. Want to solve it? Come up with ideas that explain the disparity in global terms. CRT doesn’t do that. Therefore CRT is not going to take you very far in solving the issue. 
 

What's really funny about this is that it's clearly a veiled attempt to just say that black people are dumber than non-black people, using racial disparities between black people and non-black people in Africa as proof, when the disparities both here and there can be traced back to the same fucking thing: European colonialism.

So congrats on showing how stupid you are while trying to argue that black people are just naturally dumber than you are.

[Bruno Sardine 147]

4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

 

Too much verbal diarrhea to copy all that. You are the Mr. Phlegm of the Cloak Room. 

“More common sense ignored by Troll.” No, the alleged troll, at whom you’re angry because you perceive that I pissed in your Cheerios by questioning the merits of a theory you’re working hard to champion here, didn’t ignore that at all. He doubled down on it and challenged someone to show how the experience of blacks in North Africa and the Middle East lends itself to CRT analysis. And no one, so far, has offered a rebuttal. They simply claimed that it could be done. The fact that you’re ignorant, and don’t think blacks experience racism in that part of the world in many of the same ways they experience it here, is an irrelevant side note except insofar as it highlights my initial observation that some of you are extremely provincial in your outlook 

 

[Pancho 44763]

On 6/11/2021 at 10:21 AM, jimmyjazz said:

Honestly, I'd like to gain a more complete view of critical theory, and by extension, critical race theory.  Got any recs for a good book the average Joe could digest?  I'm not looking to earn a PhD in this, but rather just to understand the overarching framework.

Critical Race Theory: An Introduction by Delgado & Stefancic is on Amazon.  It’s an easy read. 

There are articles on Google Scholar as well that you can read.  I would lean towards Delgado and Derrick Bell, who is known as the “founder” of CRT from the 70s. 

[Bruno Sardine 147]

4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

 

You're going to pardon me, bud, if I don't just accept your confident assumption that critical racial analysis doesn't happen in Egypt.

You're a guy who calls himself "Bruno Sardine" on a fucking UT sports message board. Like me, you have no idea.

See above.

I don't understand your points. The handles here are all intended to reflect the fact that this is a UT message board? Also, Bruno Sardine was an excellent detective. You shouldn't underestimate his sleuthing skills. I will observe that the mere fact you're pointing to my handle suggests a level of desperation on your part. As for the Egyptian academic landscape, It is certainly true I am not an expert. But I don't think CRT applies there, as I have said. More generally, I don't think it applies to North Africa and the Middle East (though I assume it applies to Israel).

[Pancho 44763]

Just now, Bruno Sardine said:

I don't understand your points. The handles here are all intended to reflect the fact that this is a UT message board? Also, Bruno Sardine was an excellent detective. You shouldn't underestimate his sleuthing skills. I will observe that the mere fact you're pointing to my handle suggests a level of desperation on your part. As for the Egyptian academic landscape, It is certainly true I am not an expert. But I don't think CRT applies there, as I have said. More generally, I don't think it applies to North Africa and the Middle East (though I assume it applies to Israel).

It applies to anywhere regardless of country.  It’s not clear why you don’t understand that. You’re purposely choosing to be ignorant.

[jimmyjazz 45907]

1 minute ago, Bruno Sardine said:

As for the Egyptian academic landscape, It is certainly true I am not an expert. But I don't think CRT applies there, as I have said. More generally, I don't think it applies to North Africa and the Middle East (though I assume it applies to Israel).

Why do you think these things, if you are not well-versed in CT and CRT?

[Bruno Sardine 147]

4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

You can always tell people who spend their lives always around people who agree with them* by how confidently they say shit they absolutely have no way of knowing. So used to being agreed with in circlejerks and echo chambers.

Your words possess a rich irony considering that you yourself are part of a circle jerk going on right now and the person you accuse of living in an echo chamber is the one being surrounded. Well done!

[Bruno Sardine 147]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

You're floundering.

 

 

So you assert that CRT "does not apply" in North Africa, and then you ask if someone has tried to use CRT to explain systemic racism in Egypt.  I question the validity of your assertion.

Back up.  Examine "critical theory".  Look at it as a tool or a method for understanding power structures in society.  At least recognize that it is not designed to examine society in the US . . . it can be used anywhere in the world.

Then narrow your focus to "critical race theory".  One should expect some different conclusions when used to examine a Muslim African society as opposed to a largely Christian western society, but that doesn't render it useless.  If I use a shovel to dig a hole in my back yard, and then I use it to dig a hole on Galveston beach, the fact that I end up with a pile of dirt and a pile of sand doesn't render the shovel useless.

Thanks. I agree. Yes, back up. I get what you're saying. I've thought about it, and I've thought about it a lot. It's a big country. Plays an important role on the world stage. I'm certainly not an expert in Egyptian history and culture, but I followed the Arab Spring very closely and learned a lot. There was a revolution there, as you know, with much discussion and international coverage of Egypt's government and institutions. I am saying your shovel doesn't work there. If you think your shovel will work there, then you, or somebody else, can prove me wrong by giving me the Egyptian version of the GI Act or school segregation. I don't think it exists. I think racism exists in Egypt, and provided evidence to back that up. But I don't think its foundation is institutional. That's all I'm saying. That's all I've said here. I've been consistent the whole time. Haven't moved the goal posts. If it doesn't apply to large swaths of the world, then it's not universal. If it's not universal, then it can't address a universal problem.

[Bateshorn 9927]

15 hours ago, Bruno Sardine said:

Evaluate the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the failure of popular sovereignty, Scott v. Sanford,John Brown’s Raid on Harper’s Ferry, and the election of 1860 as events leading to the Civil War.

So,  this qoute is doing an enormous amount of work for a topic that literally still dominates our discourse today.  
 

What version are the students going to get?  That John Brown was seen as a martyr and hero at the time of his death and during the war by Union troops? Or the one where he was a deranged terrorist?
 

The real version of the Civil War that clearly teaches the lead up to and the war itself were all about slavery.   Or the Dunning school version that makes it about states rights and Gentle Bob Lee (are we going to get to learn about the man’s horse as well?).  Will it teach that Lee, while a solid general also made multiple tactical and strategic errors and quietly sat by as Jubal Early threw Longstreet under the bus and allowed his deification to begin?

Are we even going to learn about the rehistory of the war that made martyrs out of the south and its leaders.  A rehistory that justified all manner of future laws and policies?
 

Critical Race Theory is many things, but at its core it’s teaching history as it was, not the way the dominant race wants/wanted it to be.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Bateshorn

[Bruno Sardine 147]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

What's really funny about this is that it's clearly a veiled attempt to just say that black people are dumber than non-black people, using racial disparities between black people and non-black people in Africa as proof, when the disparities both here and there can be traced back to the same fucking thing: European colonialism.

So congrats on showing how stupid you are while trying to argue that black people are just naturally dumber than you are.

Took longer than expected, but this is why I said, initially, I believe the creator created all groups of men equally. And someone actually questioned why I took the trouble to point that out. This is why. 

[Bateshorn 9927]

I also find your intense interest in North Africa to be curious since much racist ink has been spilt differentiating between lighter skinned North Africans and dark skinned West and Subsaharan Africans. 

[jimmyjazz 45907]

9 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

I am saying your shovel doesn't work there. If you think your shovel will work there, then you, or somebody else, can prove me wrong by giving me the Egyptian version of the GI Act or school segregation. I don't think it exists. I think racism exists in Egypt, and provided evidence to back that up. But I don't think its foundation is institutional. That's all I'm saying. That's all I've said here. I've been consistent the whole time. Haven't moved the goal posts. If it doesn't apply to large swaths of the world, then it's not universal. If it's not universal, then it can't address a universal problem.

I might be overstepping things here, but I don't think CRT presupposes all examples of racism in society are institutional in their derivation.  I think it argues that racism is "normal, common", and that if we examine how a society has evolved over time, we can better identify those aspects of racism that are baked in and which lead to continuing minority oppression.  Recognizing policy and law that originate in racial divide helps us figure out how to right those wrongs.  

[bad_teammate 13195]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I also find your intense interest in North Africa to be curious since much racist ink has been spilt differentiating between lighter skinned North Africans and dark skinned West and Subsaharan Africans. 

Bingo.

28 minutes ago, Bruno Sardine said:

As for the Egyptian academic landscape, It is certainly true I am not an expert. But I don't think CRT applies there, as I have said.

"I don't actually know, but that doesn't stop me from saying that I do!"

I think you should go ahead and say the stuff you want to say regarding race. Guys like you are always dragging this shit out to infinity. Hit us with the race science, baby, let's go.

Quote

Your words possess a rich irony considering that you yourself are part of a circle jerk going on right now and the person you accuse of living in an echo chamber is the one being surrounded. Well done!

It is well known that everyone in CR loves me a lot and I am respected highly by all sides. You've hit the nail on the head.

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

What's really funny about this is that it's clearly a veiled attempt to just say that black people are dumber than non-black people, using racial disparities between black people and non-black people in Africa as proof, when the disparities both here and there can be traced back to the same fucking thing: European colonialism.

So congrats on showing how stupid you are while trying to argue that black people are just naturally dumber than you are.

It's hilarious how clever they think they are. It's like watching a fucking toddler make a trap and being so proud of himself when his dad pretends to have fallen for it.

"They'll never see the calipers I have expertly hidden under by propeller beanie."

[Bruno Sardine 147]

25 minutes ago, Pancho said:

It applies to anywhere regardless of country.  It’s not clear why you don’t understand that. You’re purposely choosing to be ignorant.

I respectfully disagree. I think that, in fact, you are the one choosing to be ignorant. I understand that it is your assertion that it can be applied in any country. And, in a way, I accept the validity of that assertion in the sense that, yes, of course you can take out your CRT tool kit and apply it to any country. I repeat, because it seems like people are being willfully obtuse about this: I accept that from your perspective CRT can be applied anywhere. I get that.

What I am saying, and have been saying all along, is just because you attempt to apply it, doesn't mean it will produce coherent results. In the case of a Muslim country, where Islam is fundamentally ingrained in all the institutions, it will produce an incoherent result. Perhaps the problem here is some people fail to understand that racism is forbidden in Islam. If you're a Muslim you're a full-fledged Muslim, regardless of your ethnicity. Institutionally, in North African and Middle Eastern countries, the tide in many ways tilts against racism (notwithstanding, of course, the complex history and implications of the East African slave trade) 

[bad_teammate 13195]

Just now, Bruno Sardine said:

I respectfully disagree. I think that, in fact, you are the one choosing to be ignorant.

Pretending to know things you don't know isn't escaping ignorance, it's just pretending it's not there.

[Bruno Sardine 147]

39 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Why do you think these things, if you are not well-versed in CT and CRT?

Based on my understanding of the culture and history of that region. Why do you think otherwise? I trust your views are based on your understanding of the culture and history of that region, and not on ideological fealty. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

"Muslims, you see, are a special type. They are ruled entirely by religion. There are no schisms or ideologies within it. They are uniform, like a single human copied and pasted millions of times, concepts unmoving and philosophies as fixed in time as a star in the night sky. I know this because, counterintuitively, knowing basically nothing is kind of like knowing basically everything. You must prove ME wrong, because the way logic works is that the person making a massive claim isn't responsible for providing evidence."

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