Critical Race Theory policy in hiring at UT

[TreatyOak 17,396]

56 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm all for "trade schools" and vocational training in or as an adjunct to high school teaching.  It would most likely open a lot of doors for less academically inclined.

But I think the reality of "STEM" is that most people lack interest and aptitude for it.  And, although there are cultural and social biases against "STEM" (women discouraged, etc.), the main reason we don't have enough STEM graduates is because people lack the interest and aptitude, and, it's hard and people are lazy.

The other thing is that STEM careers can either a) kind of suck, because US companies treat engineers like shit, and that goes double or triple for non-degreed technicians; or b) turn into "management" or general business careers.  And, the latter requires a fairly solid base in things like history and social studies, particularly at the high school level.

"Coding" and CS type subjects are kind of their own thing, but tend toward logical and analytical, the same type of things that make people unsuited for "STEM" education and careers.

Good points but STEM careers don't suck for people who have been systemically disenfranchised and they are given a chance to contribute. I think India is a great example for this. Right now, our military serves as a great entry point for people who need assistance. Wouldn't it be great if STEM jobs could do the same?  

[Guest Lobo]

Yes, it's a damn shame those blacks don't get into top flight engineering schools like Indians and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  

I mean, Indian families that immigrate here for STEM jobs...it's admirable.  Why don't black families move here with parents who are already engineers/doctors?  

Fucking lazy bullshit is what it is.  

[wildcat09 29,591]

Jesus christ. Some real strong "I take care of my slaves" vibes from the new guy today.

[Pancho 46,331]

Well, “to take it a step further,” @TreatyOak is a serial assumer.  He assumes because of the “good’ he does for the Blacks, he’s good.  He assumes because no one else has explained what they do for the Blacks, they are just righteous bullshitters because if they weren’t, they would explain what they’ve done instead of being “anonymous.”

It’s probably a tiny bit wrong to assume, though. 

I mean, I could assume Treaty does these things for people of color because he really knows he supports politicians and a political party he knows is racist which means he condones it by looking away and pulling the lever for said politician party and politicians anyway all the while staying compliticit which means he’s actually more racist than those in his party because being complicit makes you feel guilty so you do things for the “people of color in Central and East Texas” to make you feel better about yourself and hopefully get into heaven. 

I mean, I could ASSUME that, but I don’t because I’m not Treaty Oak.

[TreatyOak 17,396]

1 hour ago, Pancho said:

Well, “to take it a step further,” @TreatyOak is a serial assumer.  He assumes because of the “good’ he does for the Blacks, he’s good.  He assumes because no one else has explained what they do for the Blacks, they are just righteous bullshitters because if they weren’t, they would explain what they’ve done instead of being “anonymous.”

It’s probably a tiny bit wrong to assume, though. 

I mean, I could assume Treaty does these things for people of color because he really knows he supports politicians and a political party he knows is racist which means he condones it by looking away and pulling the lever for said politician party and politicians anyway all the while staying compliticit which means he’s actually more racist than those in his party because being complicit makes you feel guilty so you do things for the “people of color in Central and East Texas” to make you feel better about yourself and hopefully get into heaven. 

I mean, I could ASSUME that, but I don’t because I’m not Treaty Oak.

I’ve never voted Republican, ever, and I believe there is special place in hell for the Republicans who have ruined this state. I think worse of Trump and his idiot supporters, if that’s possible.

People here assume I was some kind of right sociopath. That would be wrong. But I do find it amusing that many of the virtue signalers we have here who don’t actually do anything besides talk.

[wildcat09 29,591]

The idea that we shouldn’t teach children history is quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

[WhatTheBuck 28,931]

27 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The idea that we shouldn’t teach children history is quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

Think of all the Chinese people who don’t know what happened at Tiananmen Square and all the Russians who don’t know what happened at Chernobyl, or what’s going on in Ukraine right now. It’s the same goal.

[Guest Lobo]

7 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

I’ve never voted Republican, ever, and I believe there is special place in hell for the Republicans who have ruined this state. I think worse of Trump and his idiot supporters, if that’s possible.

People here assume I was some kind of right sociopath. That would be wrong. But I do find it amusing that many of the virtue signalers we have here who don’t actually do anything besides talk.

I don't know what metric Immamac uses when he states that this is 'the most trafficked political website in Texas' or whatever the claim is.  But we are an incredible anomaly.  Mostly white, mostly male, mostly Texas residents (red state), and mostly middle to upper class.  And there isn't a single poster who admits to voting for Trump.  Even the conservatives, and the Republicans, and the born agains...nobody voted for Trump on surlyhorns?  I'm kinda having a hard time believing that.  Even the regulars on other forums will find a way to work into a post, "And I didn't for Trump, but I'm no liberal!"  I believe in coincidences, I've just never seen one. 

[aggie08 21,827]

18 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I don't know what metric Immamac uses when he states that this is 'the most trafficked political website in Texas' or whatever the claim is.  But we are an incredible anomaly.  Mostly white, mostly male, mostly Texas residents (red state), and mostly middle to upper class.  And there isn't a single poster who admits to voting for Trump.  Even the conservatives, and the Republicans, and the born agains...nobody voted for Trump on surlyhorns?  I'm kinda having a hard time believing that.  Even the regulars on other forums will find a way to work into a post, "And I didn't for Trump, but I'm no liberal!"  I believe in coincidences, I've just never seen one. 

It's crazy! We don't even have a single conservative that admits to believing that there was something "fishy" going on with the 2020 election, despite polls showing that a majority of them still do. I mean, what are the odds?! 

[jimmyjazz 47,221]

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

The idea that we shouldn’t teach children history is quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

If we teach kids nothing but trades (and STEM disciplines like coding are essentially trades), then we end up with an abundance of people who have been intentionally not taught how to help themselves.  It's nothing more than an army of employees.  Most likely, more than needed.  What happens when supply exceeds demand?  Prices go down.  This is about power and money, and the tool is disenfranchising even more Americans than we have now.

While it's probably true that low income schools face a relatively high bar in terms of graduating kids with a sufficiently broad education to go out and carve their own way as well as their wealthier peers, it's nowhere near as vile as stripping them of essentially all critical thinking skills and a knowledge of the world around them, and how that world got to where it is today.

[Brisketexan 106,919]

“No point in teaching them to read. Hell, that just makes em dangerous. Just teach em to pick cotton. That’s good, honest work.”

Jesus.

[David Dennison 19,553]

15 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

Good points but STEM careers don't suck for people who have been systemically disenfranchised and they are given a chance to contribute. I think India is a great example for this. Right now, our military serves as a great entry point for people who need assistance. Wouldn't it be great if STEM jobs could do the same?  

That's great, but make sure they get a big ol' helping of the humanities while we prepare them for STEM careers.

[UDontKnow 10,572]

16 hours ago, Lobo said:

Yes, it's a damn shame those blacks don't get into top flight engineering schools like Indians and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  

I mean, Indian families that immigrate here for STEM jobs...it's admirable.  Why don't black families move here with parents who are already engineers/doctors?  

Fucking lazy bullshit is what it is.  

I would appreciate further clarification on your post.

My immigrant Indian parents weren't/aren't engineers/doctors. They saved up and ran a gas station. Now doctors are what they made of my sister and me. My parents happened to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and yes, at times they faced racial discrimination. I wouldn't say that the type of discrimination they faced was anywhere close to the 1907 Bellingham Riots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingham_riots) and they luckily avoided the Dotbusters in New Jersey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotbusters) by ending up in Texas.

It's necessary to generalize for the sake of analysis, but in the end everyone's situation is unique. I don't know why minority immigrant groups have to be used as a foil to underrepresented minority groups.

[Guest Lobo]

17 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

Good points but STEM careers don't suck for people who have been systemically disenfranchised and they are given a chance to contribute. I think India is a great example for this. Right now, our military serves as a great entry point for people who need assistance. Wouldn't it be great if STEM jobs could do the same?  

 

9 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

I would appreciate further clarification on your post.

My immigrant Indian parents weren't/aren't engineers/doctors. They saved up and ran a gas station. Now doctors are what they made of my sister and me. My parents happened to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and yes, at times they faced racial discrimination. I wouldn't say that the type of discrimination they faced was anywhere close to the 1907 Bellingham Riots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingham_riots) and they luckily avoided the Dotbusters in New Jersey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotbusters) by ending up in Texas.

It's necessary to generalize for the sake of analysis, but in the end everyone's situation is unique. I don't know why minority immigrant groups have to be used as a foil to underrepresented minority groups.

My post was just a quick reaction to this one from TreatyOak.  He mentioned India, so I just grabbed that as the more recently mentioned group...no judging (I agree with you on the foil thing).  Basically people of color should go into STEM fields, or the military, or just be educated immigrants.  We just dance around the obvious answer on my people of color don't seem to be "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps"......which is preK-12 education for many people of color in the United States is fucking abysmal.  No STEM-based college degree offerings or more  armed forces recruiting stations is gonna fix that.

I mean it's good I guess that we're talking about people of color being underrepresented in STEM programs on college campuses.  But the underlying root causes go back to Pre-K.  I'm sure 7 year old black kids attending school in Toledo are really happy we're trying to get more engineering students to take humanities courses...but they're on their third teacher of the school year already because the other two quit over low pay and an administration that just wants  to shuffle the kids from grade to grade and keep the whole facade propped up with glue and duct tape.  /sarcasticrant 

It's like listening to my MAGA cousins ranting and raving about immigrants ruining America, not working when they get here, not acclimating to our ideals, etc.  And I have to point out, "Our fucking grandparents came here from Mexico!  What the fuck?  Do they have irony at your rallies?"  

[Nivek 17,415]

18 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

There's a long history of girls and women being discouraged at all levels from pursuing STEM degrees and training.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_STEM_fields#Explanations_for_low_representation_of_women

That seems to have been true to a certain point in time.  But it seems that changed a decade+ ago. 

[jimmyjazz 47,221]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

That seems to have been true to a certain point in time.  But it seems that changed a decade+ ago. 

It's better than it was, but I don't think it has evened up.  At my undergrad school, which was almost exclusively engineering (~ 6,000 students), the male/female ratio was over 6:1.

Currently at UT's Cockrell School of Engineering, they claim 30% of undergrads are women, and 25% of grad students.  That's still 3:1 to 4:1.  But as a benchmark, in 1990 the number of women in undergrad engineering was 15%, which is pretty consistent with my undergrad institution.

It's getting better, but it's not there yet.  I suspect some of the hard sciences are a little closer to equal, though, but I don't have those data.

[TwiceHorn 32,083]

37 minutes ago, Nivek said:

That seems to have been true to a certain point in time.  But it seems that changed a decade+ ago. 

As I edited my post above, there has been a good deal of consciousness of it and attempts to remedy it.  But like jimmy says, not there yet in engineering, at least.

I suspect he's also right about hard sciences, too.  I'm not sure they offer the career advantages that some other STEM fields offer.

And, yes, even though engineering careers, among other STEM fields, may not offer quite the opportunities for advancement as other fields (at least without basically getting out of STEM), they are worlds better than what's available to an average schmoe with no degree or a very general degree.

Edited April 3, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[jimmyjazz 47,221]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As I edited my post above, there has been a good deal of consciousness of it and attempts to remedy it.  But like jimmy says, not there yet in engineering, at least.

I suspect he's also right about hard sciences, too.  I'm not sure they offer the career advantages that some other STEM fields offer.

Found some statistics for UT's College of Natural Sciences:  freshman enrollment is 61.5/38.5 female to male.

[TwiceHorn 32,083]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Found some statistics for UT's College of Natural Sciences:  freshman enrollment is 61.5/38.5 female to male.

I wonder if that tails off some at the graduate level, where a lot of those people are going to have to go.

[TreatyOak 17,396]

2 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

I would appreciate further clarification on your post.

My immigrant Indian parents weren't/aren't engineers/doctors. They saved up and ran a gas station. Now doctors are what they made of my sister and me. My parents happened to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and yes, at times they faced racial discrimination. I wouldn't say that the type of discrimination they faced was anywhere close to the 1907 Bellingham Riots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingham_riots) and they luckily avoided the Dotbusters in New Jersey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotbusters) by ending up in Texas.

It's necessary to generalize for the sake of analysis, but in the end everyone's situation is unique. I don't know why minority immigrant groups have to be used as a foil to underrepresented minority groups.

Good for your parents. I was referring to the fact that as a society, India has done an outstanding job of paying special attention to STEM and they are seeing great results. Not everyone who has prospered from STEM in India is a well-to-do family. Many people have been able to raise their economic status by having their education focused virtually exclusively on STEM.

l’ve gotten lots of flack for this idea here, which is fine. People are angry at our failing schools and the lack of funding. I get it. But if any of you have been to inner city high schools during school hours, you know the profound obstacles these children face. No one loves history more than me but if we have one or two hours at best for meaningful education, I prefer it to be at learning something practical that can give them a chance. If you do a half-ass job of trying to teach everything, you will end up teaching nothing. 

[jimmyjazz 47,221]

6 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

But if any of you have been to inner city high schools during school hours, you know the profound obstacles these children face.

Your obsession with "inner city" as opposed to "low income" reveals your inherent racial bias.

I grew up in rural south-central Missouri.  I promise you, the struggles seen in inner-city schools of St. Louis are no different than those seen in the poverty-stricken small towns of the Ozarks.

[UDontKnow 10,572]

2 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

Good for your parents. I was referring to the fact that as a society, India has done an outstanding job of paying special attention to STEM and they are seeing great results. Not everyone who has prospered from STEM in India is a well-to-do family. Many people have been able to raise their economic status by having their education focused virtually exclusively on STEM.

l’ve gotten lots of flack for this idea here, which is fine. People are angry at our failing schools and the lack of funding. I get it. But if any of you have been to inner city high schools during school hours, you know the profound obstacles these children face. No one loves history more than me but if we have one or two hours at best for meaningful education, I prefer it to be at learning something practical that can give them a chance. If you do a half-ass job of trying to teach everything, you will end up teaching nothing. 

Thanks for replying. Two things can be accurate at once.

I wholeheartedly agree that more money needs to be put into the public education system - and that actually starts with paying and treating teachers better. They should not be accused of bullshit like indoctrination. That's just plain wrong and if it continues, it's going to hurt our society and it won't take very long to see the results.

As it pertains to my descent and my experience with it, it really has to do with valuing education and opportunity as well as work ethic. Where my parents came from, there was/is no such thing as a right to free public education. You go to a third world country and even the poor illiterate children know the value of a formal academic education. In terms of work ethic, I saw Indian kids like me raised to finish studying before playing. Excuses were not tolerated and if you brought home a grade of 99, you would be interrogated on why you lost 1 point. Now the latter is a bit extreme, but you get the idea about the mindset.

All of the above aside, descendants of immigrant populations are at risk of becoming lazy due to the success of their ancestors. I recall reading something along the lines of my children? or my grandchildren? being no different than the rest of population in terms of achievements and accomplishments due to not having the challenge to become established in this country and being fully "Americanized."

[TreatyOak 17,396]

39 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Your obsession with "inner city" as opposed to "low income" reveals your inherent racial bias.

I grew up in rural south-central Missouri.  I promise you, the struggles seen in inner-city schools of St. Louis are no different than those seen in the poverty-stricken small towns of the Ozarks.

That is a fair point. I have no doubt rural schools face the same profound challenges. 

And every time you make a personal attack on me and accuse me of being a racist, I am going to remind you that:

• One of us is Hispanic 
• One of us works for free to build the businesses owned by people of color and it ain't you

[TreatyOak 17,396]

42 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Thanks for replying. Two things can be accurate at once.

I wholeheartedly agree that more money needs to be put into the public education system - and that actually starts with paying and treating teachers better. They should not be accused of bullshit like indoctrination. That's just plain wrong and if it continues, it's going to hurt our society and it won't take very long to see the results.

As it pertains to my descent and my experience with it, it really has to do with valuing education and opportunity as well as work ethic. Where my parents came from, there was/is no such thing as a right to free public education. You go to a third world country and even the poor illiterate children know the value of a formal academic education. In terms of work ethic, I saw Indian kids like me raised to finish studying before playing. Excuses were not tolerated and if you brought home a grade of 99, you would be interrogated on why you lost 1 point. Now the latter is a bit extreme, but you get the idea about the mindset.

All of the above aside, descendants of immigrant populations are at risk of becoming lazy due to the success of their ancestors. I recall reading something along the lines of my children? or my grandchildren? being no different than the rest of population in terms of achievements and accomplishments due to not having the challenge to become established in this country and being fully "Americanized."

Thanks for your post. Lots of great information here. 

Again, congrats to your parents for their success and it's great to hear about how valued education can be. 

[jimmyjazz 47,221]

23 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

That is a fair point. I have no doubt rural schools face the same profound challenges. 

And every time you make a personal attack on me and accuse me of being a racist, I am going to remind you that:

• One of us is Hispanic 
• One of us works for free to build the businesses owned by people of color and it ain't you

Well, you don't know what I do, including assisting people of color who have escaped to Austin from desperate war zones in the last 6 months.  Hint.

[YChang 3,570]

31 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

That is a fair point. I have no doubt rural schools face the same profound challenges. 

And every time you make a personal attack on me and accuse me of being a racist, I am going to remind you that:

• One of us is Hispanic 
• One of us works for free to build the businesses owned by people of color and it ain't you

I think it's awesome that you're able to have a very direct impact Treaty. Not everyone can say that. But... I also think you can do even more good without ignoring other disciplines/areas of study.

For example it sounds like you're in the world of marketing? Think about how historically companies underserved communities of color! Working at Apple, one of the things I admire about this place (for the most part I've avoided the kool-aid) is the belief that the company succeed because of figuring out products that's the outcome from the intersection of arts and technology. Imagine if you tried to tackle the issues in that manner. 

[Serak The Preparer 3,484]

2 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

That is a fair point. I have no doubt rural schools face the same profound challenges. 

And every time you make a personal attack on me and accuse me of being a racist, I am going to remind you that:

• One of us is Hispanic 
• One of us works for free to build the businesses owned by people of color and it ain't you

How many people have accused you of being racist? You are imagining attacks that aren't there.

That said, you have also failed to respond to the implication that the end goal of your desired education plan is that POC do not learn history / liberal arts and are also denied entry to universities in favor of trade schools. I suspect that you didn't start thinking about this end state as your goal, but it also seems that you aren't particularly concerned that is the natural consequence of your desired educational system.

[Biff Tannen 46,169]

19 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Jesus christ. Some real strong "I take care of my slaves" vibes from the new guy today.

Why should I have my slaves taken off me? I’m a responsible slave owner. I’m trained in how to use my slaves safely. Just because that guy mistreated his slaves doesn’t mean that my rights should be taken away from me.  I use my slaves to protect my family! I keep my slaves locked in a safe!

[Nivek 17,415]

It's better than it was, but I don't think it has evened up.  At my undergrad school, which was almost exclusively engineering (~ 6,000 students), the male/female ratio was over 6:1.
Currently at UT's Cockrell School of Engineering, they claim 30% of undergrads are women, and 25% of grad students.  That's still 3:1 to 4:1.  But as a benchmark, in 1990 the number of women in undergrad engineering was 15%, which is pretty consistent with my undergrad institution.
It's getting better, but it's not there yet.  I suspect some of the hard sciences are a little closer to equal, though, but I don't have those data.

I guess I saw the blip where it shifted to 60/40 women. I heard that my professor had some 7 women and 1 new man join his team after I left, though not all graduated. I also knew some other schools during that period and it was striking.

https://www.americangeosciences.org/sites/default/files/86-4-pctFemale.jpg

Anecdotal evidence strikes again and real data corrects it.

[TwiceHorn 32,083]

5 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's better than it was, but I don't think it has evened up.  At my undergrad school, which was almost exclusively engineering (~ 6,000 students), the male/female ratio was over 6:1.

Currently at UT's Cockrell School of Engineering, they claim 30% of undergrads are women, and 25% of grad students.  That's still 3:1 to 4:1.  But as a benchmark, in 1990 the number of women in undergrad engineering was 15%, which is pretty consistent with my undergrad institution.

It's getting better, but it's not there yet.  I suspect some of the hard sciences are a little closer to equal, though, but I don't have those data.

Well, as I think you know, other than the odd business calculus class in ETC, there wasn't exactly a big pile of bush (probably some huge individual bushes) running around in the late 80.  But there were a handful of hotties.

[jimmyjazz 47,221]

I probably shouldn't say this, but the hot, smart female engineering majors in the 80's were intimidating, fascinating, and largely out of reach.  The benefits of that 6:1 ratio, for one thing.

[TwiceHorn 32,083]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I probably shouldn't say this, but the hot, smart female engineering majors in the 80's were intimidating, fascinating, and largely out of reach.  The benefits of that 6:1 ratio, for one thing.

Oh, indeed.  

There was one, that was super-cool, in my class that showed up my junior year after transferring from aggy.  Someone on probably TOS explained why MEs fled aggy in the late 80s.

[Brisketexan 106,919]

That is a fair point. I have no doubt rural schools face the same profound challenges. 
And every time you make a personal attack on me and accuse me of being a racist, I am going to remind you that:

• One of us is Hispanic 
• One of us works for free to build the businesses owned by people of color and it ain't you

A whole lot of patting yourself on the back here. There are quite a few of us who actually do a great deal to help minorities: individually, in the local community, directly, indirectly, etc. We just don’t suck our own dicks about it as much as you seem to.
And…by working closely enough with members of minority communities, we sure as shit see how it would be a great disservice to just train them as programming monkeys and not broad minded thinkers (hint….where should the future leaders of minority communities come from?)

[TreatyOak 17,396]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, you don't know what I do, including assisting people of color who have escaped to Austin from desperate war zones in the last 6 months.  Hint.

I am honestly so glad to hear that you do that. Thanks for doing so. That is a great thing.
I work with a farm that employs people who have fled from war zones. I wonder if we overlap there.

[TreatyOak 17,396]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A whole lot of patting yourself on the back here. There are quite a few of us who actually do a great deal to help minorities: individually, in the local community, directly, indirectly, etc. We just don’t suck our own dicks about it as much as you seem to.
And…by working closely enough with members of minority communities, we sure as shit see how it would be a great disservice to just train them as programming monkeys and not broad minded thinkers (hint….where should the future leaders of minority communities come from?)

 I am glad to hear that you help our communities. I don't have a problem with people not liking my idea. This is a discussion group. However, when I am accused to being a racist, I'm going to defend myself. 

Regardless, do you really believe that empowering people with the skills to compete in the modern world is "training them as programming monkeys?" Half the world's population would get down on their knees and thank God for the chance to acquire such skills. You know, the ones who struggle every day to find food? We are currently failing a huge segment in our population by not helping them acquire skills. We can do better. 

[jimmyjazz 47,221]

25 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

I am honestly so glad to hear that you do that. Thanks for doing so. That is a great thing.
I work with a farm that employs people who have fled from war zones. I wonder if we overlap there.

No chance.  This is a soldier who I got in touch with through a close buddy who is helping process military refugees in New Jersey.

[tchookem 3,975]

And…by working closely enough with members of minority communities, we sure as shit see how it would be a great disservice to just train them as programming monkeys and not broad minded thinkers (hint….where should the future leaders of minority communities come from?)

So you're saying he's advocating an education curriculum that systemically funnels people of color away from subjects that may help them become better leaders as well as away from universities that could help them create networks to advance economically and socially. All this is done in the name of forcing them into occupations that limit them to mid-level positions within companies owned and run by people that are typically not people of color.

He's creating a CRT case study and doesn't even know it.

[Brisketexan 106,919]

So you're saying he's advocating an education curriculum that systemically funnels people of color away from subjects that may help them become better leaders as well as away from universities that could help them create networks to advance economically and socially. All this is done in the name of forcing them into occupations that limit them to mid-level positions within companies owned and run by people that are typically not people of color.

He's creating a CRT case study and doesn't even know it.

A whole bunch of this.
The seats of power aren’t filled by many people who studied computer science/programming. If we want minorities to have a fair seat at the American table - and we should - them we should want them to get the kind of broad education that makes it possible. It’s not an either-or proposition.

[David Dennison 19,553]

47 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

 I am glad to hear that you help our communities. I don't have a problem with people not liking my idea. This is a discussion group. However, when I am accused to being a racist, I'm going to defend myself. 

Regardless, do you really believe that empowering people with the skills to compete in the modern world is "training them as programming monkeys?" Half the world's population would get down on their knees and thank God for the chance to acquire such skills. You know, the ones who struggle every day to find food? We are currently failing a huge segment in our population by not helping them acquire skills. We can do better. 

Critical thinking skills are just as important as practical skills. We must do better.

[Satchel 6,982]

22 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Critical thinking skills are just as important as practical skills. We must do better.

Yes they are and we must: https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3281511

[TreatyOak 17,396]

10 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

No chance.  This is a soldier who I got in touch with through a close buddy who is helping process military refugees in New Jersey.

Thanks for doing it! Sounds like a great thing. 

[Pancho 46,331]

On 4/3/2022 at 1:59 AM, TreatyOak said:

. But I do find it amusing that many of the virtue signalers we have here who don’t actually do anything besides talk.

 

For the 2094th time, you don’t know that.  Why do you keep repeating shit that you don’t know?

[Pancho 46,331]

11 hours ago, tchookem said:

He's creating a CRT case study and doesn't even know it.

I was personally waiting for him to figure it out on his own, but alas that was never going to happen. 

[TreatyOak 17,396]

11 hours ago, tchookem said:

So you're saying he's advocating an education curriculum that systemically funnels people of color away from subjects that may help them become better leaders as well as away from universities that could help them create networks to advance economically and socially. All this is done in the name of forcing them into occupations that limit them to mid-level positions within companies owned and run by people that are typically not people of color.

He's creating a CRT case study and doesn't even know it.

Please. Lot of hyperbole in this. A lot of people here don't seem to have an understanding of bad some of our schools truly are. Notice I have not mentioned anything about CRT here. I don't care about those issues. What I am talking about is our failed schools in poor urban and yes, rural communities, (thanks, @jimmyjazz, for reminding me that rural students suffer as much-great point).

And also, since you guys are opposed to a highly STEM-focused education for low-income, I wonder if you advocate shutting down the incredibly successful school in Texas that is doing just that? The South Texas ISD Science Academy in Mercedes Texas is a free, public school that focuses entirely on STEM. They are ranked in the top 1% of public schools in the US. This is a very modest-income community that gets it and is creating doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. LOL on the creating mindless computer-programming drones. Wow, such a racist school.  How on earth will these engineers survive without all the critical skills they could learn from Shakespeare? 

Edited April 4, 2022 by TreatyOak

[David Dennison 19,553]

17 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

Please. Lot of hyperbole in this. A lot of people here don't seem to have an understanding of bad some of our schools truly are. Notice I have not mentioned anything about CRT here. I don't care about those issues. What I am talking about is our failed schools in poor urban and yes, rural communities, (thanks, @jimmyjazz, for reminding me that rural students suffer as much-great point).

And also, since you guys are opposed to a highly STEM-focused education for low-income, I wonder if you advocate shutting down the incredibly successful school in Texas that is doing just that? The South Texas ISD Science Academy in Mercedes Texas is a free, public school that focuses entirely on STEM. They are ranked in the top 1% of public schools in the US. This is a very modest-income community that gets it and is creating doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. LOL on the creating mindless computer-programming drones. Wow, such a racist school.  How on earth will these engineers survive without all the critical skills they could learn from Shakespeare? 

From what I can tell, no one opposes STEM-focused education for low-income students. Most of us we believe that education for low-income students should be as well-rounded as education for students with parents from other income brackets. That type of education will go a long way toward helping low-income students with STEM skills navigate a world created by people who owe their critical thinking skills to an education steeped in the humanities and liberal arts.

[TreatyOak 17,396]

17 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

Please. Lot of hyperbole in this. A lot of people here don't seem to have an understanding of bad some of our schools truly are. Notice I have not mentioned anything about CRT here. I don't care about those issues. What I am talking about is our failed schools in poor urban and yes, rural communities, (thanks, @jimmyjazz, for reminding me that rural students suffer as much-great point).

And also, since you guys are opposed to a highly STEM-focused education for low-income, I wonder if you advocate shutting down the incredibly successful school in Texas that is doing just that? The South Texas ISD Science Academy in Mercedes Texas is a free, public school that focuses entirely on STEM. They are ranked in the top 1% of public schools in the US. This is a very modest-income community that gets it and is creating doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. LOL on the creating mindless computer-programming drones. Wow, such a racist school.  How on earth will these engineers survive without all the critical skills they could learn from Shakespeare? 

So @Pancho and @David Dennison, based on your above comments, I guess you advocate shutting the South Texas ISD Science Academy based on the fact that the engineers, doctors and scientists in this low-income community that start here are purposely being marginalized by society by not getting to learn all the stuff that white kids get to learn. 

 

[fattyflattie 4,640]

Lol. Arguing with about 10 attorneys and academics, and 2 STEM guys and not realizing it. 

[TreatyOak 17,396]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

From what I can tell, no one opposes STEM-focused education for low-income students. Most of us we believe that education for low-income students should be as well-rounded as education for students with parents from other income brackets. That type of education will go a long way toward helping low-income students with STEM skills navigate a world created by people who owe their critical thinking skills to an education steeped in the humanities and liberal arts.

Wait, what? People have been tearing me a new one over the last two pages for advocating this EXACT IDEA. I've been called an idiot, "the stupidest thing written here," was a good one.

Even worse, I've been labeled a racist who harbors white supremacist ideas for advocating that low-income communities focus their limited resources on STEM. And here is an incredible example of a low-income community in South Texas that has created a nationally-ranked STEM school that has people fighting from all over the valley to get in the doors. Google them.  

EDIT: Over the last two decades, we have hired many of the humanities-led kids from UT. While some of them turned out okay, many of them turned out to be stupid, lazy morons whom we eventually let go. The liberal arts education we think so highly of is highly overrated in my view. More STEM kids, please.  

Edited April 4, 2022 by TreatyOak

[wildcat09 29,591]

1 minute ago, TreatyOak said:

Wait, what? People have been tearing me a new one over the last two pages for advocating this EXACT IDEA. I've been called an idiot, "the stupidest thing written here," was a good one.

Even worse, I've been labeled a racist who harbors white supremacist ideas for advocating that low-income communities focus their limited resources on STEM. And here is an incredible example of a low-income community in South Texas that has created a nationally-ranked STEM school that has people fighting from all over the valley to get in the doors. Google them.  

I didn't say teaching STEM was the dumbest idea I'd ever heard, I said not teaching history was the dumbest idea I'd ever heard.

Apparently we need to do a lot better at teaching basic reading comprehension, too.

[TreatyOak 17,396]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I didn't say teaching STEM was the dumbest idea I'd ever heard, I said not teaching history was the dumbest idea I'd ever heard.

Apparently we need to do a lot better at teaching basic reading comprehension, too.

Wasn't you, but nice try. It was @jimmyjazz on page 53: "That's the dumbest idea regarding public education I've heard in years.  Congratulations."

Go back and read all the comments about my idea starting on that page from @WhatTheBuck, @David Dennison, etc, etc, who all claim it is somehow racist and bad to have lower-income schools focus exclusively on STEM and here is an amazing school in South Texas that has done exactly that and is now one of the most acclaimed public schools in the nation.