Big Trouble in Little Belarus

[Jive Turkey 12568]

holy shit.  we may need Marko Ramius, aka The Vilnius School-Master, to get them out of this jam.

[Jive Turkey 12568]

MAGA won't say shit about this.  they love the idea of mouthy journalists being arrested and tortured.

waiting for Cruz to condemn Putin's actions on Twitter.

still waiting.

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The PR is one thing, but I doubt that a commercial airline can ignore orders from a govt when they're flying over their airspace. Even forgetting the MIG-16 on your tail, wouldn't an airline pilot be required by their airline to follow instructions by air traffic control unless there is known danger to the passengers? And would the pilot be aware that the KGB is about to take 1 passenger off the plane?

Hopefully we hear soon from Western airlines in refusing to fly over Belarus.

Of course they did the right thing on landing. No one was asking them to do barrel rolls to evade enemy fire. The PR thing is that they should have said "Our aircraft was stolen at gunpoint. We did what we could to get our customers out as safely and as quickly as possible. We regret that one of our valued customers is now in the hands of those that threatened us" instead of issuing some press release indistinguishable from a weather delay.

[washparkhorn 9935]

From the Desk of Ted Cruised: This is why we must allow open carry on airline flights!!! And while we are at it, let's add top and bottom turrets to those 737's.

[Js1 85110]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

From the Desk of Ted Cruised: This is why we must allow open carry on airline flights!!! And while we are at it, let's add top and bottom turrets to those 737's.

[Bama Chick 28596]

“Heart disease”, huh?

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

34 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

“Heart disease”, huh?
 

I would say it is a Tell-Tale Heart, but it's actually rather the opposite. Protasevich is the sane one, and the rest of the world has gone mad.

[Shady Ray 1633]

This is going to be fascinating to watch play out.

 

In my opinion, the well-deserved sanctions that are incoming on Belarus arising out of this stunt are ironically going to serve as the final push of momentum needed to fully return Lukashenko/Belarus completely back into the Russian fold...momentum which has materialized over the past year or so after watching Lukashenko flirt with a more independent posture re Europe and Ukraine in recent years before.

 

Russia will certainly assist an already beleaguered Belarus (at least those powerful individuals/interests in that be in that God-forsaken state) to the extent required to absorb said sanctions and - if Russian "counterrevolutionary ops" in Minsk are airtight, which they are likely to be - will provide Russia with increased opportunities to do what they really want to do in Minsk, which an orderly ushering of Lukashenko out in favor of a more palatable (and even more compliant) replacement. He has long been seen as a loose cannon who isn't loved by any measure by Putin, and in the right circumstance will be sent to early retirement (in whichever form may be required) by Moscow if the possibility presents itself. 

 

I would not be a bit surprised to see leadership change occur within 12-24 months unless some type of genuine, public, collective action catches hold. My fear is that the chance for that to happen passed last year, as my impression is that Lukashenko (and Putin) is not nearly as likely to be caught off guard as he was last year. 

[Brisketexan 104628]

This is going to be fascinating to watch play out.
 
In my opinion, the well-deserved sanctions that are incoming on Belarus arising out of this stunt are ironically going to serve as the final push of momentum needed to fully return Lukashenko/Belarus completely back into the Russian fold...momentum which has materialized over the past year or so after watching Lukashenko flirt with a more independent posture re Europe and Ukraine in recent years before.
 
Russia will certainly assist an already beleaguered Belarus (at least those powerful individuals/interests in that be in that God-forsaken state) to the extent required to absorb said sanctions and - if Russian "counterrevolutionary ops" in Minsk are airtight, which they are likely to be - will provide Russia with increased opportunities to do what they really want to do in Minsk, which an orderly ushering of Lukashenko out in favor of a more palatable (and even more compliant) replacement. He has long been seen as a loose cannon who isn't loved by any measure by Putin, and in the right circumstance will be sent to early retirement (in whichever form may be required) by Moscow if the possibility presents itself. 
 
I would not be a bit surprised to see leadership change occur within 12-24 months unless some type of genuine, public, collective action catches hold. My fear is that the chance for that to happen passed last year, as my impression is that Lukashenko (and Putin) is not nearly as likely to be caught off guard as he was last year. 

Agreed. Was just having this conversation over lunch. The transition of Belarus into a complete vassal state will be completed soon.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Agreed. Was just having this conversation over lunch. The transition of Belarus into a complete vassal state will be completed soon.

Yeah, gonna suck for Ukraine, too. Putin plays chess way better than Trump & Hitler. 

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

Evidently Ryanair got the memo.

 

Quote

Ryanair condemns the unlawful actions of Belarusian authorities who diverted Ryanair’s flight FR4978 to Minsk yesterday (May 23), which was an act of aviation piracy.

This is now being dealt with by EU safety and security agencies & NATO. Ryanair is fully cooperating with them and we cannot comment further for security reasons.

 

Quote

Ryanair CEO Michael O’Leary is one of the most outspoken guys in the airline industry, and this morning he has called this a “state-sponsored hijacking, state-sponsored piracy.”

https://onemileatatime.com/ryanair-belarus-hijacking/

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

Now we are getting flight plans that look like this:

 

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2059]

lulz

Quote

Ironically Ryanair is continuing to use Belarusian airspace. For example, look at Ryanair flight 3340 from Pafos to Tallinn.

This is despite the airline accusing the country of having just committed a state-sponsored hijacking against one of its planes. I guess it’s actually not that ironic — there’s nothing Ryanair loves more than money.

 

[GopherRock 1765]

25 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

I would not be a bit surprised to see leadership change occur within 12-24 months unless some type of genuine, public, collective action catches hold. My fear is that the chance for that to happen passed last year, as my impression is that Lukashenko (and Putin) is not nearly as likely to be caught off guard as he was last year. 

Ask Erdogan in Turkey how to put down a rebellion and cement your grip on power.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Quite the little cabal of authoritarian leaders grouping together these days. Add in Orban, Vucic, and maybe Kurz (I have no clue how that's going to shake out) and it's just a swell time.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

While unrelated, an American journalist was arrested at an Myanmar airport attempting to leave the country this morning. When you let one country flout international laws or standards, you're encouraging others. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/24/world/myanmar-journalist-danny-fenster-intl/index.html

 

[wildcat09 29257]

1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

While unrelated, an American journalist was arrested at an Myanmar airport attempting to leave the country this morning. When you let one country flout international laws or standards, you're encouraging others. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/24/world/myanmar-journalist-danny-fenster-intl/index.html

 

We make enough bombs that you'd think we'd have a couple to spare for the assholes who actually deserve it.

[Brisketexan 104628]

9 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Quite the little cabal of authoritarian leaders grouping together these days. Add in Orban, Vucic, and maybe Kurz (I have no clue how that's going to shake out) and it's just a swell time.

Remember how the world looked in the first part of the 20th century?  And the first part of the 19th?  And the first part of the 18th?

About the only thing that has really progressed is our ability to fuck each other up.  Nukes and laser-guided bombs are a lot more efficient than halberds.  Otherwise, same as it ever was.   As a species, we are stuck in perpetual adolescence.

[Nivek 16860]

We make enough bombs that you'd think we'd have a couple to spare for the assholes who actually deserve it.

Sorry, all our explosives went to gender reveal parties.

[Gatorubet 30113]

Remember how the world looked in the first part of the 20th century?  And the first part of the 19th?  And the first part of the 18th?
About the only thing that has really progressed is our ability to fuck each other up.  Nukes and laser-guided bombs are a lot more efficient than halberds.  Otherwise, same as it ever was.   As a species, we are stuck in perpetual adolescence.

Must be true. ‘Cause I’m hoping we go all old school antifa on ‘em.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

The Latvians poured a little gasoline on this by yanking down the Belarusian flag and replacing it with a historic flag that the opposition uses at the ongoing hockey world championships. Minsk responds by tossing out the entire Latvian diplomatic contingent. To which Riga responded by doing the same.  Incidentally, Riga is the sole host nation for the world hockey championship this year after lots of the European nations refused to play in Belarus, which was to cohost. The Balts are always up for a good fight.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/belarus-latvia-expel-each-others-diplomats-row-over-journalists-arrest-deepens-2021-05-24/

The brief lived Minsk-West thaw has a stake through its heart. However, any Russian plans to replace Lukashenko will run up against a big problem, which is that he assiduously took care of any potential rival from within or without.

Something fascinating to see—- Russian official Embassy social media outlets in the region are messaging on the “flag” spat on behalf of Belarus.  It’s odd to see that much of an overt demonstration in what should be a quarrel between Minsk, Riga, and international ice hockey. 

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

What you're saying is we need to have Tonya Harding parachute into Minsk and take the knee of Lukashenko?

Joking aside, you and @Shady Ray talked about the behind the scenes drama that goes on with our diplomacy and plotting (excluding wetwork). Lukashenko has made it difficult for a casual observer such as myself to figure out what if anything can be done for the citizens who are pushing for an open democracy. It looks to be insurmountable, but they have been trying so very very hard. I lost count of the arrests. The threats to parents (we will take your children if you protest) was a chilling reminder of our own separation policy at the border and is a grim future in our own country if the fascists come to power.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

18 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The transition of Belarus into a complete vassal state will be completed soon.

I wasn’t aware that it hadn’t happened long ago. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

7 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I wasn’t aware that it hadn’t happened long ago. 

After 2014 and the invasion and occupation of Crimea and the war in Donbas, Lukashenka went on what passed for a charm offensive to Western states and began slowrolling and foot dragging on initiatives from the Kremlin. It even got publicly testy between the two leaders with Lukashenka promising to defend Belarus from any Russian interference. The reason is simple: Lukashenka likes Lukashenka more than anyone else and he drew the “wrong” lesson from Ukraine from the Russian point of view. He realized that Putin was far more of a threat to his power than a gang of opposition refugees lurking around think tanks and cafes in Warsaw and Vilnius.

He only began to swing back the other way after the brutal crackdowns and falsified elections that left him in power, which the West had no choice but to (fairly tepidly all things considered) condemn. He made himself unpalatable to the West even given his charm offensive.  And this really is not a power move by Putin. The opposite, it reveals how completely radioactive Russia is as a partner or ally. Only complete pariahs like Belarus, Iran, and Assad’s Syria look at Russia that way.  The best they can hope for otherwise is grudging trade in natural resources and fairly high quality weapons, with a lot of nose-holding.  So is true desperation to force Belarus and Lukashenka back into a fold he doesn’t want to be in.

For @Mrs Whiggins, there’s not a lot to do for ordinary people still in Belarus. The Poles, the Lithuanians, and to a slightly lesser degree other Baltic and Central European NATO Allies are really the leaders in finding homes and gainful activities for exile-by-choice dissidents. The issue there, of course, is that we’ve seen how hard it is to be a credible dissident from abroad and even more so how easy it is to lose touch. And of course the Poles and Lithuanians have their own historic interest in that territory.
 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by 956 Worldwide

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Also, just to stay out in front of it— here’s the official (Bela)Russian version of what happened that is being spread by toadies and believed by idiots:

Hamas or someone pretending to be Hamas phoned in a bomb threat to a budget airliner flying the prestigious Athens to Vilnius route. Minsk warned the airliner and sent a MiG-29 up to help, just in case of course. The pilot decided all on his own to divert to Minsk where Belarusian authorities immediately conducted a search and— surprise— a Belarusian dissident who is either a deadly terrorist or not that important really, depending on whom and when you ask, was found. And of course they had no choice but to arrest him but they’re being totes nice to him.

[Bama Chick 28596]

This seems problematic.

[InkaUtexas 25521]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:01 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

While unrelated, an American journalist was arrested at an Myanmar airport attempting to leave the country this morning. When you let one country flout international laws or standards, you're encouraging others. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/24/world/myanmar-journalist-danny-fenster-intl/index.html

 

Fuck the Burmese Generals. 

[Shady Ray 1633]

Longcat 'bout to longcat:

 

One of the things that is interesting here is that there is a lot more going on here than just a rogue state acting in rogue ways. That entire region (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus) has been (and remains) full of cloak-and-dagger shit-particularly since 2014- and Lukashenko pulling such a brazen stunt just to get at a run-of-the-mill dissident journalist never sat right with me.

 

Belarusian dissident journos living in the Baltics and Poland crisscross Belarusian airspace alllllllll the time and some 26 year old journalist - regardless of how capable he may be in his profession- isn’t a rational justification for such internationally-alienating behavior. Geopolitics 101 freshmen simply chalk this up to Lukashenko wanting to stifle dissent, but any analysis beyond that would indicate there is more to it than that. Lukashenko is a brute, he certainly is not irrational. He certainly doesn’t pull this shit without Putin’s acquiescence and he certainly was not so foolish as to act with an unawareness of the fallout that was to come by such a repulsive act.

 

Unfortunately, in this binary world of “pro-democracy Ukrainian/Belarusian freedom fighter” vs. “Russian stooge/asset”, all nuance is lost and it looks like that is once again happening here. European media has started to recognize over the past few hours that there was at least some type of active, “on-the-ground” relationship between Protasevich and Azov Battalion - which is a war-crime-committing, openly Neo-Nazi Ukrainian regiment and has been designated as such by the U.S. Congress. BBC has reported on this relationship, as has the Times of London and various German language media outlets. Crickets in the US, of course. This group is full of unabashed Nazi scum, although, in Protasevich’s defense, not exclusively so, so his association with them should not impute, per se.

 

To note…Azov Battalion is particularly despised here in Germany because they still commemorate Einsatzgruppen atrocities as honorable, which obviously brings renewed attention to things that Germans would like to move on from. Frankly, they have been/continue to be pivotal to the Ukrainian operations in the Donbas (and the continued power of the existing government, at large), yet they are a complete fucking embarrassment to the rest of civilized Europe.

 

Anyway, on the radio here in Germany this morning there were quite some lively discussions over to what extent we should lionize someone who - at a minimum - served as a very effective propagandist for Azov, as can be seen in his prior journalistic work. As I have said in prior posts, there is a widespread Neo-Nazi element within Ukrainian society. It is true and it is not propaganda. And unfortunately, Russian propagandists seize on it to exploit the anti-Russian movement as a whole, and American media completely ignores it, thus rendering both of them completely unreliable.

 

Now, of course, the Russians - as is typical of them - are pumping out their bullshit propaganda saying he was a full, fighting member of the Azov Battalion during the Donbas conflict; and Western-European media, of course, have now scrambled saying he was a mere embedded journalist with Azov doing the Lord’s work in spreading democracy to Ukraine. In my opinion, the truth - as is typically the case on this particular conflict - is somewhere in the middle, as I do not believe that anyone over there in positions of leadership -whether for or against the existing regimes-  are particularly moral/admirable as individuals. There are pictures showing him in formation with Azov and the notorious neo-Nazi commander of Azov, Andriy Biletsky - piece of fascist shit of the highest order - apparently issued a statement on Telegram that says that Protasevich was a member of the battalion, that he was wounded in fighting near Shyrokyne…and that “his weapon was not a gun, but the written word.”

 

It is also worth noting that Protasevich:

 

• had ties to the US intel apparatus (via the below) which are not being reported, which is so fucking frustrating when trying to give US media the benefit of the doubt as being an honest and comprehensive source of information.

 

• met with the U.S. State Department in D.C. literally two days (as per his own Facebook account, which has now been locked) after going into self-imposed-exile in Poland.

 

• Then, shortly thereafter, joined as a reporter for multiple media outlets that were funded by the US, most notable of which was Radio Free Europe-Radio Liberty. (RFERL has done great things in the past, but come the fuck on, RFERL is THE US-run state media for East Europe/Russia).

 

• Then went to work for USAID-funded Euroradio.fm in Belarus. USAID, for better or worse, has long been proven to have EXTENSIVE ties to US intelligence in many different capacities worldwide.

 

• He then left these positions in late December 2019/early January 2020 to establish the Nexta channel on Telegram, which immediately became the voice of the opposition in Belarus and was instrumental in what unfolded a few months later re Belarusian protests.

 

And that is what is solidly reported/verified/provable. The Russian propaganda goes much, much further…just as the US media completely ignores it, so I will not address that here.

 

But it is fucking frustrating when publications such as The NY Times and Guardian (as they each did yesterday) do extensive bio-pieces on Protasevich, starting at age 16…literally every single aspect of his post-adolescent life…and then just gloss the fuck over his entire 4 year-western-affiliated connections/employment/Azov history and then fail to scrutinize quite an extensive social media/photographical trail of this guy that definitely paints him in a light beyond that of “good journalist”. It ignores the proven relationship with Azov entirely, which truly is a matter of journalistic malpractice or just straight dishonesty. Curious and disappointing.

 

And to be clear, I don’t think that any of these facts are disqualifying from what the media paints him to be…but they should be noted, and they aren't for some reason.

 

Now, to the issue at hand…none of the above changes the fact that Lukashenko is a complete and total piece of shit of the highest order who deserves to swing from lamppost immediately. As in 'yesterday'. And it doesn’t change the fact that what he did re that flight was illegal, terroristic and warrants the absolute highest level of international solidarity in inflicting maximum damage to his power and to the Belarusian state apparatus’ continued ability to stifle and oppress freedom. And it doesn’t change the fact that journalists should be protected, particularly those of whom have engaged in dangerous reporting with less than savory characters.

 

I simply bring up the background to set groundwork for what I think is honestly going on:

 

This was a brazen counter-intelligence operation. If you are a paranoid power-whore like Lukashenko, and there is a perceived western-funded American journalist, with extensive ties to Azov, who had jut been at the Delphi Economic Forum allegedly to cover Tsikhanouskaya in Greece, and was headed to the city in which Tsikhanouskaya -your highest profile western-supported adversary lives - and you think there is a treasure trove of intel onboard that plane that could potentially implicate your internal, hidden enemies…then you feel justified in making this move.

 

If you see some dissident 20 some-odd year journalist living in self-imposed exile-which are a dime a dozen- you don’t.

 

If Protasevich was indeed affiliated with western intel, that laptop and phone- and Protasevich as a relatively young and “soft” sort of fella - could potentially be a gold mine for Belarusian (and Russian) intel agencies. At a minimum, Lukashenko would have massive, massive levels of intel on internal adversaries and, potentially, TONS of information on the exile community in Poland/Vilnius/Riga’s interactions with the West. This was value for internal, security-apparatus use and certainly not for some internal PR initiative. And if I was involved in revolutionary shit in Minsk at the moment, I'd be shitting my pants now.

 

This entire region will start to make much, much more sense to people once one stops viewing it as democracy vs. authoritarianism and evolves to the correct viewpoint of sleazy fucks involved in intel op vs. intel op....all the fuckin' time. Because that is what it is. No one is good here. Everyone outside of the powerless are unfortunately compromised.

 

For anyone who is interested, here is a couple-day-old analysis from Jamestown. Jamestown is considered top-tier when it comes to integrity, and they are hated in Russia, so I see them as relatively honest brokers. 

 

 

Quote

 

Belarus Stages What It Sees as Major Security Operations

Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 18 Issue: 82

By: Grigory Ioffe

 

...

 

The whole incident was concocted with the sole purpose of arresting Roman Protasevich, a 26-year-old Belarusian journalist. Residing in Poland since 2019, he received political asylum there in 2020; Protasevich’s previous work experience includes reporting for Euroradio, a Minsk-based media outlet funded by the United States, and for the press service of the controversial Ukrainian volunteer Azov Battalion, frequently accused of attracting extreme-right or Neo-Nazi fighters (Riafan.ru, May 24). Most importantly, however, in the eyes of the Belarusian authorities, has been Protasevich’s role in creating the NEXTA Telegram channel, which routinely steered street rallies in Minsk following the disputed August 9 presidential elections. Until September 2020, Protasevich was that channel’s editor-in-chief. Minsk accuses Protasevich of actively participating in group actions that grossly violate public order and of inciting social discord (Reform.by, May 24). In February, Belarus sent a request to Poland to extradite Protasevich. For Minsk, even more important than punishing Protasevich for these alleged crimes is the possibility of extracting information about the true extent and funding of NEXTA and, above all, about NEXTA’s possible supporters in the corridors of power in Minsk. According to Semion Uralov, the editor of Sonar-2050(an online outlet devoted to Belarusian-Russian integration), the corresponding suspicion has long been entertained in Minsk (Facebook.com, May 23).

 

https://jamestown.org/program/belarus-stages-what-it-sees-as-major-security-operations/

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Shady Ray

[Guest Lobo]

Have there been any bizarre statements issued via "From the Desk of the Former President of the United States, Donald J. Trump"???

[SimonBolivar 10931]

The Belarusian Air Force is now a terrorist organization. Looks like they have 100ish Russian made combat aircraft that would be interesting to study in pieces on Belarusian Airfields.

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

2 hours ago, Shady Ray said:

Longcat 'bout to longcat:

 

One of the things that is interesting here is that there is a lot more going on here than just a rogue state acting in rogue ways. That entire region (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus) has been (and remains) full of cloak-and-dagger shit-particularly since 2014- and Lukashenko pulling such a brazen stunt just to get at a run-of-the-mill dissident journalist never sat right with me.

 

Belarusian dissident journos living in the Baltics and Poland crisscross Belarusian airspace alllllllll the time and some 26 year old journalist - regardless of how capable he may be in his profession- isn’t a rational justification for such internationally-alienating behavior. Geopolitics 101 freshmen simply chalk this up to Lukashenko wanting to stifle dissent, but any analysis beyond that would indicate there is more to it than that. Lukashenko is a brute, he certainly is not irrational. He certainly doesn’t pull this shit without Putin’s acquiescence and he certainly was not so foolish as to act with an unawareness of the fallout that was to come by such a repulsive act.

 

Unfortunately, in this binary world of “pro-democracy Ukrainian/Belarusian freedom fighter” vs. “Russian stooge/asset”, all nuance is lost and it looks like that is once again happening here. European media has started to recognize over the past few hours that there was at least some type of active, “on-the-ground” relationship between Protasevich and Azov Battalion - which is a war-crime-committing, openly Neo-Nazi Ukrainian regiment and has been designated as such by the U.S. Congress. BBC has reported on this relationship, as has the Times of London and various German language media outlets. Crickets in the US, of course. This group is full of unabashed Nazi scum, although, in Protasevich’s defense, not exclusively so, so his association with them should not impute, per se.

 

To note…Azov Battalion is particularly despised here in Germany because they still commemorate Einsatzgruppen atrocities as honorable, which obviously brings renewed attention to things that Germans would like to move on from. Frankly, they have been/continue to be pivotal to the Ukrainian operations in the Donbas (and the continued power of the existing government, at large), yet they are a complete fucking embarrassment to the rest of civilized Europe.

 

Anyway, on the radio here in Germany this morning there were quite some lively discussions over to what extent we should lionize someone who - at a minimum - served as a very effective propagandist for Azov, as can be seen in his prior journalistic work. As I have said in prior posts, there is a widespread Neo-Nazi element within Ukrainian society. It is true and it is not propaganda. And unfortunately, Russian propagandists seize on it to exploit the anti-Russian movement as a whole, and American media completely ignores it, thus rendering both of them completely unreliable.

 

Now, of course, the Russians - as is typical of them - are pumping out their bullshit propaganda saying he was a full, fighting member of the Azov Battalion during the Donbas conflict; and Western-European media, of course, have now scrambled saying he was a mere embedded journalist with Azov doing the Lord’s work in spreading democracy to Ukraine. In my opinion, the truth - as is typically the case on this particular conflict - is somewhere in the middle, as I do not believe that anyone over there in positions of leadership -whether for or against the existing regimes-  are particularly moral/admirable as individuals. There are pictures showing him in formation with Azov and the notorious neo-Nazi commander of Azov, Andriy Biletsky - piece of fascist shit of the highest order - apparently issued a statement on Telegram that says that Protasevich was a member of the battalion, that he was wounded in fighting near Shyrokyne…and that “his weapon was not a gun, but the written word.”

 

It is also worth noting that Protasevich:

 

• had ties to the US intel apparatus (via the below) which are not being reported, which is so fucking frustrating when trying to give US media the benefit of the doubt as being an honest and comprehensive source of information.

 

• met with the U.S. State Department in D.C. literally two days (as per his own Facebook account, which has now been locked) after going into self-imposed-exile in Poland.

 

• Then, shortly thereafter, joined as a reporter for multiple media outlets that were funded by the US, most notable of which was Radio Free Europe-Radio Liberty. (RFERL has done great things in the past, but come the fuck on, RFERL is THE US-run state media for East Europe/Russia).

 

• Then went to work for USAID-funded Euroradio.fm in Belarus. USAID, for better or worse, has long been proven to have EXTENSIVE ties to US intelligence in many different capacities worldwide.

 

• He then left these positions in late December 2019/early January 2020 to establish the Nexta channel on Telegram, which immediately became the voice of the opposition in Belarus and was instrumental in what unfolded a few months later re Belarusian protests.

 

And that is what is solidly reported/verified/provable. The Russian propaganda goes much, much further…just as the US media completely ignores it, so I will not address that here.

 

But it is fucking frustrating when publications such as The NY Times and Guardian (as they each did yesterday) do extensive bio-pieces on Protasevich, starting at age 16…literally every single aspect of his post-adolescent life…and then just gloss the fuck over his entire 4 year-western-affiliated connections/employment/Azov history and then fail to scrutinize quite an extensive social media/photographical trail of this guy that definitely paints him in a light beyond that of “good journalist”. It ignores the proven relationship with Azov entirely, which truly is a matter of journalistic malpractice or just straight dishonesty. Curious and disappointing.

 

And to be clear, I don’t think that any of these facts are disqualifying from what the media paints him to be…but they should be noted, and they aren't for some reason.

 

Now, to the issue at hand…none of the above changes the fact that Lukashenko is a complete and total piece of shit of the highest order who deserves to swing from lamppost immediately. As in 'yesterday'. And it doesn’t change the fact that what he did re that flight was illegal, terroristic and warrants the absolute highest level of international solidarity in inflicting maximum damage to his power and to the Belarusian state apparatus’ continued ability to stifle and oppress freedom. And it doesn’t change the fact that journalists should be protected, particularly those of whom have engaged in dangerous reporting with less than savory characters.

 

I simply bring up the background to set groundwork for what I think is honestly going on:

 

This was a brazen counter-intelligence operation. If you are a paranoid power-whore like Lukashenko, and there is a perceived western-funded American journalist, with extensive ties to Azov, who had jut been at the Delphi Economic Forum allegedly to cover Tsikhanouskaya in Greece, and was headed to the city in which Tsikhanouskaya -your highest profile western-supported adversary lives - and you think there is a treasure trove of intel onboard that plane that could potentially implicate your internal, hidden enemies…then you feel justified in making this move.

 

If you see some dissident 20 some-odd year journalist living in self-imposed exile-which are a dime a dozen- you don’t.

 

If Protasevich was indeed affiliated with western intel, that laptop and phone- and Protasevich as a relatively young and “soft” sort of fella - could potentially be a gold mine for Belarusian (and Russian) intel agencies. At a minimum, Lukashenko would have massive, massive levels of intel on internal adversaries and, potentially, TONS of information on the exile community in Poland/Vilnius/Riga’s interactions with the West. This was value for internal, security-apparatus use and certainly not for some internal PR initiative. And if I was involved in revolutionary shit in Minsk at the moment, I'd be shitting my pants now.

 

This entire region will start to make much, much more sense to people once one stops viewing it as democracy vs. authoritarianism and evolves to the correct viewpoint of sleazy fucks involved in intel op vs. intel op....all the fuckin' time. Because that is what it is. No one is good here. Everyone outside of the powerless are unfortunately compromised.

 

For anyone who is interested, here is a couple-day-old analysis from Jamestown. Jamestown is considered top-tier when it comes to integrity, and they are hated in Russia, so I see them as relatively honest brokers. 

 

 

 

Needs to fit in 280 characters or less.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

@Shady Ray--not going to requote your whole piece, but thanks for that info.

I've heard of Azov. Ironically it was back when Richard Spencer (alt right poster boy) was traveling around to college campuses to give his pseudo academic white genetic nationalist talk. One of my children was in the process of beginning various college visits and we were attempting to avoid all the chaos that his engagements cause. Anyway, he had a handler named Preston Wigginton (sp?), who was creating a ruckus about lawsuits and such whenever Spencer would get cancelled by a college. That kind of stuff always draws my attention towards motivation so I did some digging around and found that Wigginton, like other RW types had traveled and actually lived in Russia for some time. They bankrolled some of his activities stateside. It was during that digging that I ran across Azov. Those folks are hardcore.

My question to you is, is this along the lines of fascist types embedded in US govt forming alliances to gain a stronger foothold here and there? I have a serious gap in understanding here, and the Gaslit Nation transnational criminal alliance theory is what I lean towards. I mean, based on the GQP here it makes sense, but following the intrigue over there loses me because I lack the nuance. I had completely forgotten about some of their militias until you mentioned it, and didn't realize how interconnected some of them are. Wow. Little bit of a Gustav Princip vibe (which oddly enough was on June 28th 107 years ago. Lot of food for thought. Thanks again.

 

[Orale 1087]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/27/world-aviation-body-to-launch-inquiry-into-belarus-hijacking?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Russia blocks European flights to Moscow in retaliation. I don't know how this hurts anyone but Russians.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

All the shit about Protasevich being a Western asset (or is he a Nazi) is horseshit getting flung against the wall by the usual suspects to muddy the waters about what’s going on. Remember, just a couple days ago Belarus grounded the flight because of Hamas and then, surprise, this guy just happened to be there. Now he’s a super spy Nazi who was such a powerful operator that Belarus had no choice than to divert his flight with a MiG-29 and haul his ass off.

The truth is that what he was openly was far more dangerous than a spy or intel asset— he ran the largest social media opposition networks where protests against the regime got started.  That’s so much more dangerous to Lukashenka than any agent skulking around the Baltics.

All the other shit is easily explainable.  He was a Vaclav Havel fellow at RFE/RL in Prague from 2017-2018.  The Havel fellowship is funded not by the U.S., but the CZECH Ministry of Foreign Affairs. You can apply here:

https://pressroom.rferl.org/call-for-applications-vaclav-havel-journalism-fellowship-2020-2021

I imagine there are many ways the West recruits agents. I do think it’s unlikely that many of them fill out an online application to openly work at RFE/RL. And what @ShadyRay says is not true— almost every Western outlet has noted his Havel fellowship, including RFE/RL which broke the story. I think I mentioned it in my first post on the topic. 

The Azov Battalion is a nasty piece of work. But in 2014, Ukraine got caught flat-footed with a military completely unprepared for the fight and the Azov Battalion was one of the only actual fighting forces that could actually be put in the field. Simply put, if he covered Donbas in 2014-2015 from the Ukrainian side, then he covered the Azov Battalion. Simple as that. 

All the other stuff is sort of a “no duh” type thing.  Yes, of course a Belarusian opposition journalist covered and met with the leading opposition figure in Greece. What else would he do? No, he does not need to be an agent to make his capture “worth it.” All he needs to be is what he says he is, and to show other opposition leaders how far Lukashenka will go to get you to cow them into shutting up and quietly filling out their Polish refugee forms. 

There may be no heroes in Eastern Europe, but there is good and bad.  Lukashenka is bad. Awful in fact. And the people who protest him are a damn sight better. And there has never- ever- been a dissident who wasn’t accused of being a “spy” or “agent”, all the way back to Havel and Walesa. And if aligning yourself openly with democratic nations that support your cause and are your only real source of tangible help makes you one, then they are indeed guilty as charged.

 

 

[bernorange 8348]

 

11 hours ago, Shady Ray said:

It is also worth noting that Protasevich:

 

• had ties to the US intel apparatus

As I said before... Khashoggied.

 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

. . . and we’re back to “we didn’t make them land, we just recommended they land, and it was Hamas and maybe the Swiss anyway.  But the people we got are totes bad.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/belarus-leader-claims-total-lie-112300625.html

 

Quote

elarus' authoritarian leader Alexander Lukashenko has spoken for the first time since his country forced a Ryanair passenger jet to divert — under military escort — and to land in the capital city of Minsk, where a dissident journalist was arrested. Lukashenko called it a "total lie that the plane was forced down," insisting that Belarusian authorities had received a bomb threat from Switzerland and were only acting in the passengers' interest.

 

[Trey3216 15325]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:01 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

While unrelated, an American journalist was arrested at an Myanmar airport attempting to leave the country this morning. When you let one country flout international laws or standards, you're encouraging others. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/24/world/myanmar-journalist-danny-fenster-intl/index.html

 

[Shady Ray 1633]

19 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

All the shit about Protasevich being a Western asset (or is he a Nazi) is horseshit getting flung against the wall by the usual suspects to muddy the waters about what’s going on. Remember, just a couple days ago Belarus grounded the flight because of Hamas and then, surprise, this guy just happened to be there. Now he’s a super spy Nazi who was such a powerful operator that Belarus had no choice than to divert his flight with a MiG-29 and haul his ass off.

The truth is that what he was openly was far more dangerous than a spy or intel asset— he ran the largest social media opposition networks where protests against the regime got started.  That’s so much more dangerous to Lukashenka than any agent skulking around the Baltics.

All the other shit is easily explainable.  He was a Vaclav Havel fellow at RFE/RL in Prague from 2017-2018.  The Havel fellowship is funded not by the U.S., but the CZECH Ministry of Foreign Affairs. You can apply here:

https://pressroom.rferl.org/call-for-applications-vaclav-havel-journalism-fellowship-2020-2021

I imagine there are many ways the West recruits agents. I do think it’s unlikely that many of them fill out an online application to openly work at RFE/RL. And what @ShadyRay says is not true— almost every Western outlet has noted his Havel fellowship, including RFE/RL which broke the story. I think I mentioned it in my first post on the topic. 

The Azov Battalion is a nasty piece of work. But in 2014, Ukraine got caught flat-footed with a military completely unprepared for the fight and the Azov Battalion was one of the only actual fighting forces that could actually be put in the field. Simply put, if he covered Donbas in 2014-2015 from the Ukrainian side, then he covered the Azov Battalion. Simple as that. 

All the other stuff is sort of a “no duh” type thing.  Yes, of course a Belarusian opposition journalist covered and met with the leading opposition figure in Greece. What else would he do? No, he does not need to be an agent to make his capture “worth it.” All he needs to be is what he says he is, and to show other opposition leaders how far Lukashenka will go to get you to cow them into shutting up and quietly filling out their Polish refugee forms. 

There may be no heroes in Eastern Europe, but there is good and bad.  Lukashenka is bad. Awful in fact. And the people who protest him are a damn sight better. And there has never- ever- been a dissident who wasn’t accused of being a “spy” or “agent”, all the way back to Havel and Walesa. And if aligning yourself openly with democratic nations that support your cause and are your only real source of tangible help makes you one, then they are indeed guilty as charged.

 

 

No one is saying he is a super spy. But he sure as fuck isn't Havel or Walesa. And to compare him to them is a bit of a stretch and dishonors both of those honorable men.

I am simply saying he is more than some tween journalist with a big heart operating a social media channel in a hot conflict zone. Ultimately, you and I fundamentally agree with the degree to which the US engages in intel/regime-change ops around the world, and more specifically, in Ukraine and Belarus. You seem to believe that their uprisings are organic; I believe that they show all the signs of tried and true color revolutions that the US engages in around the world and has facilitated for decades. That doesn't mean that I side with the other side...as I have said in the past, I am long removed from the US, with no intention of returning, and I no longer see its actions as good or bad, but rather purely geopolitical and interesting as a subject for casual study. But I digress.

But, let me get this straight...an 18 year old Belarusian, decked out in full Azov Battalion gear, standing under the Wolfsangel during a march literally dedicated to PRAISING the atrocities of the Nazi-Era Einsatzgruppen, who from his own Facebook page is seen sporting Sva Stone swastika-clad clothing (a brand which, btw, is illegal in Germany, due to its well-known fascistic nature), who has no attributable journalistic works/photographs to his name during this timeframe beyond his own FB page (which has now been conveniently deleted), was not acting as a press agent (read, propagandist) for Azov, but rather as an independent and objective journalist? Ok, well we can disagree on the applicability of Occam's Razor here. Perhaps he was just old enough at 18 to "cover" the single most important geopolitical conflict of 2014 on the front lines as a journalist, but just wasn't mature enough yet to know that swastikas=bad.

Do "embedded journalists" deck out in the gear of their "embedded" entities to march in cities that are no longer hostile locations like he did here in Mariupol in 2015? Because, that isn't my experience in following war correspondents for decades now. I don't recall one single war correspondent marching with Serbian ethnonationalists in the 1990s and claiming to "cover" them. I don't recall it in Gulf War 1 or 2 (Electric Boogaloo). I don't recall it on either side in Afghanistan. I don't even recall it in Iraq, where our media certainly was compromised. I don't recall it in my research on Vietnam. As a matter of fact, I only recall it in circumstances where "journalists" acted as propagandists. But the reasons that I should give a shit about the fate of someone decked out in Azov fatigues at a march through the streets of a secured Mariupol, standing under the Wolfsangel, are pretty much lost on me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And those images of him were dated 2015, from his own FB feed, before it was locked. 

And that goes to my point...The NY Times and Guardian bio-pieces that I referenced certainly did not cover his employment with RFE/RL. Those pieces didn't even mention his "embedded" position with Azov. Do you not think that such a position within journalism - on the front lines of the war with Russia in 2014 - would be the absolute highlight of his young journalistic career? Then why COMPLETELY ignore it? Why not show his prior journalistic work? Why not touch on that period of his brief career to date? Could it be that it isn't relevant to the reader getting to know this freedom fighter, or could it be that perhaps, just perhaps, that Facebook posts from his teenaged years, which have now been inexplicably removed, don't support the idea of a young 18 year old photo-journalist, but rather a kid who decided to play soldier with a bunch of neo-Nazis who got caught up in something waaaaay over his head. 

Did he ever publish photographs that were in any way detrimental to the human-scum known as Azov on his limited platforms, of which (knowing that barbaric group) should have been plentiful? No, he didn't.

Did he ever speak against Azov after his time as an "embedded journalist" ended? No, he didn't.

Does the leader of the Azov Battalion, Andriy Biletsky - a known war criminal and fascist - to this day still support him and claim that he fought with them? Yes, he does. As recently as yesterday.

If an "embedded reporter" accompanied the original Nazi Einsatzgruppen (to which Azov to this day honors) through their atrocious march through Belarus, Ukraine and Wester Russia in 1941, yet never once published photos capturing this group in any other light other than hagiographic, would that make such a reporter a reporter or a propagandist? I think we both know this answer.

Of course, none of this exonerates Lukashenko, but when you say that there is even one degree of virtue over the existing regimes, is that truly the case?

The UN has documented Azov's beheadings of civilians, mass rapes of Russian-Ukrainian villages, published calls for mass cleansing of ethnic Russians, systemic rape of the mental and physically disabled, forced sodomy and even the documented anal-electrocution of a mentally handicapped man...the list goes on and on. And it is documented. So, no, these people aren't "a damn site better". They are just as filthy and deserve just as brutal of an ending. Lampposts for all of them. Swing in that strong Eastern European breeze, the lot of them. 

The difference between the two is that while we amplify the atrocities of Russian-aligned dictators with a steady drumbeat of news coverage disavowing their acts - and deservedly so - we, at most, issue dated and occasional "below the fold" articles reporting on the atrocities of those fascists who we literally arm in Ukraine...and yes, I know that our arms are technically banned from Azov as of late 2018 (of course, that comes 4 YEARS AFTER they were documented by reputable NGOs and the UN as engaging in the above!), but do you honestly believe that non-Azov recipients of our military aid don't immediately funnel them to - as you said - their most effective fighting force against the Russians? Come on. This is more than "a nasty bunch". These are genocidal nazis, who are associated with this guy and who warrant mentioning in this story, assuming truth is what we are after.

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf

And let me be clear...NONE of this is conclusive. NONE if this justifies Lukashenko's barbarism. NONE of this justifies the suffering that this kid is likely experiencing today. But it absolutely is worth mentioning the fucking word "Azov" in the same stories in which we lionize this guy as a freedom fighter. So no, the media in the US hasn't covered this. No, the media has not focused on his history with the US State Department. No, the media hasn't disclosed that his prior non-RFERL employer was completely USAID financed. The media hasn't covered the fact that American taxpayers bankrolled the organization that started Nexta. And that is relevant. And that is journalistic malpractice and it is THAT which frustrates me. We deserve better from our media.

The American people deserve to know that this isn't a dissident journalist/activist along the lines of Walesa or Havel. They deserve to know the full story, which they currently are not getting and that is for one simple reason...it doesn't support the narrative that they want us to see. They don't want us to see how much we armed Azov. They don't want us to see how involved we were in what went on over there. They don't want us to see what our taxes finance in atrocities and they don't want us to know the degree of fucking filth that we support.

So they don't cover it.

And notwithstanding the content of this post, fuck Lukashenko, may he meet his painful demise soon. 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Shady Ray

[RomaVicta 29794]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:00 PM, Bama Chick said:

This seems problematic.
 

I'm too old to have to or be able to fight it, but I wonder if this is cause for NATO to blitzkrieg this motherfucker, hold an election in a country familiar with western democracy, and see what happens.

Someone on Maddow last week was talking about how democracy is necessarily an international endeavor. Doing nothing in the face of this is as troubling to me as many of the things the Trumpists have done to damage this democracy. The whole thing seems to be eroding.

This man, whom they are killing slowly right before our eyes, is an international hero. He's a metaphor as well.

Russia is already waging war against the West. We must devise an answer to it. I am slow to urge military force, but this seems like it right be the apt moment.

Pre-position special forces in Belarus. Fill the skies of Belarus with US/NATO planes. Drop airborne soldiers. Cross the borders in modern, light assault vehicles.

At the moment of attack, announce to Russia that they must withdraw any of their military planes from the airspace and garrison all soldiers in Belarus. We don't want to mistakenly kill Russians neither will we risk the lives of our own soldiers due to overcautiousness.

It's not just for the one, brave young man. It's to make a statement about the future of democracy and Western will. Let's not go peacefully, rotting slowly by  the day.

This seems like the kind of cause we claim to exist for.

Edited May 28, 2021 by RomaVicta

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

5 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I'm too old to have to or be able to fight it, but I wonder if this is cause for NATO to blitzkrieg this motherfucker, hold an election in a country familiar with western democracy, and see what happens.

Someone on Maddow last week was talking about how democracy is necessarily an international endeavor. Doing nothing in the face of this is as troubling to me as many of the things the Trumpists have done to damage this democracy. The whole thing seems to be eroding.

This man, whom they are killing slowly right before our eyes, is an international hero. He's a metaphor as well.

Russia is already waging war against the West. We must devise an answer to it. I am slow to urge military force, but this seems like it right be the apt moment.

Pre-position special forces in Belarus. Fill the skies of Belarus with US/NATO planes. Drop airborne soldiers. Cross the borders in modern, light assault vehicles.

At the moment of attack, announce to Russia that they must withdraw any of their military planes from the airspace and garrison all soldiers in Belarus. We don't want to mistakenly kill Russians neither will we risk the lives of our own soldiers due to overcautiousness.

It's not just for the one, brave young man. It's to make a statement about the future of democracy and Western will. Let's not go peacefully, rotting slowly by  the day.

This seems like the kind of cause we claim to exist for.

Based on the conversations, I wouldn't call him a hero--if he really is a fascist, then he's just a different flavor of Lukashenko, but it doesn't make what Lukashenko did right either.

[RomaVicta 29794]

Of course, I posted before I read Shady Ray. Very informative and nuanced. Great work, Shady.

Reading the first part, I started doubting what I wrote above. By the second half of your post, I see that we are in alignment about how the West should dispose itself towards Belarus. 

Your information on Protasevich's likely darker history than we like in a symbol lets some reality into the story. Your criticism is more of how such stories and persons are portrayed in news media by simplistic dullards looking for white hats and black hats. I couldn't agree more.

Then you describe your scorn and desire for action against Lukashenko. Totally agree there. 

Protasevich is a symbol now. A metaphor for tyranny's impunity in taking small bites out of the international democratic fabric. Part of the democratic fabric is Idiot World and short attention spans. Sadly, we can't rely on most people to focus as well as you do on context and relative importance of facts. 

It would be just like 21st Century democracy to descend into an argument about whether Protasevich is a good guy or bad guy instead of the greater motives behind the action to capture and murder him in a dramatically public way and what motives we might have by executing whatever response we choose.

Then, of course, Real Housewives starts in about 20 minutes. What were we talking about?

 

Thanks for making me rethink my post and the issue. Never a bad idea.

[RDCanecutter 26281]

On 5/24/2021 at 12:27 PM, Bama Chick said:

“Heart disease”, huh?
 

 

 

Translation-- he was young and healthy enough that the first dose of poison didn't kill him all the way.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Frankly I think the response to Russia banning the landing of anyone evading Belarus airspace into Russia should be the banning of the landing of any flights from Russia into Europe or America. Seems like that would make the message clear.  But nobody asked me. 

[Shady Ray 1633]

On 5/27/2021 at 4:38 PM, Mrs Whiggins said:

@Shady Ray--not going to requote your whole piece, but thanks for that info.

I've heard of Azov. Ironically it was back when Richard Spencer (alt right poster boy) was traveling around to college campuses to give his pseudo academic white genetic nationalist talk. One of my children was in the process of beginning various college visits and we were attempting to avoid all the chaos that his engagements cause. Anyway, he had a handler named Preston Wigginton (sp?), who was creating a ruckus about lawsuits and such whenever Spencer would get cancelled by a college. That kind of stuff always draws my attention towards motivation so I did some digging around and found that Wigginton, like other RW types had traveled and actually lived in Russia for some time. They bankrolled some of his activities stateside. It was during that digging that I ran across Azov. Those folks are hardcore.

My question to you is, is this along the lines of fascist types embedded in US govt forming alliances to gain a stronger foothold here and there? I have a serious gap in understanding here, and the Gaslit Nation transnational criminal alliance theory is what I lean towards. I mean, based on the GQP here it makes sense, but following the intrigue over there loses me because I lack the nuance. I had completely forgotten about some of their militias until you mentioned it, and didn't realize how interconnected some of them are. Wow. Little bit of a Gustav Princip vibe (which oddly enough was on June 28th 107 years ago. Lot of food for thought. Thanks again.

 

I think you raise a great point here. With respect to Ukraine, my feeling is that the rank-and-file political class are nationalists, but not hardcore Neo-Nazis or anything. They are incompetent idiots, but they aren't Nazis. They obviously have legitimate objectives against Russia and they want a more independent/Western-oriented state...but they certainly turn a blind eye towards the extreme right. Part of this is because the Neo-Nazi right in Ukraine doesn't particularly poll well, so they aren't a threat politically...but also because Ukraine is screwed militarily without them. And that's the dirty little secret. Far-right extremism runs rampant in certain Ukrainian military circles, particularly with respect to the most capable fighting elements on the front lines. So, when we arm them, we are inevitably arming actual, self-proclaimed Nazis. As in Bandera-loving, celebrating-SS Galicia-annually, Wolfsangel-waving, exterminate-the-untermenschen Nazis. Hell, the German ambassador to Ukraine just a couple of months ago had to issue a statement basically saying, "Hey, dumbfucks...quit letting your military units and state employees march in honor of the fucking 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS every year. Jesus, you people."

 

So, to expect the tech and weaponry that we supply Ukraine to be withheld from their front lines in Donbas is naive. It is that age-old American foreign policy conundrum of: well, the really evil people get the job done, so we will hold our nose and give them the best killing technology on the planet and cross our fingers that they only point it at [insert adversary du jour]. Which, of course, they always end up turning on villagers and innocents along the way. And of course, while it isn't particularly appetizing, I guess they feel that it sometimes has to be done. But we should at least be aware of it as taxpayers. In each of the three annual spending bills before the 2018 Congressional ban on directly arming Azov came into place, a similar restriction was inserted into early drafts of House spending bills, only to be removed before passage. So Congress knew who we were arming, they just didn't care enough to even pay lip-service in stopping it.

 

Which is really unfortunate, because we now see time and time again that fascists from around the world, including multiple instances of American citizens, come to Ukraine to get all trained up by fellow nazis, and then head home with weapons training and a head full of insane ideology that has been reinforced by newfound "brothers-in-arms" on the front lines. Hell, just a few months ago Ukraine made a public display of deporting to Americans who belonged to Atomwaffen Division/The Base who had joined up with Azov and were producing Neo-Nazi videos. 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/ukraine-deports-american-neo-nazi-atomwaffen-division

 

With respect to Belarus, I don't think that neo-Nazism is nearly as big of a concern, thankfully. Belarus does not have nearly the history of glorifying its association with the SS, as many in Western Ukraine do. And Belarus was absolutely decimated by the Nazis, so there is no pathetic revisionism there. Belarus also doesn't have the internal linguistic/cultural divide that Ukraine does, so I would not expect any conflict there to descend into what we see in Ukraine.

 

Ultimately, Belarus is a tragic dictatorship increasingly bound to Moscow. Ukraine, on the other hand, is just an absolutely pathetic excuse for a state...both in its former, pre-Maidan iteration and its current condition. It basically vacillates between incompetent boobs running the government, with Neo-Nazis in control of critical elements of the military. And it's for that reason that despite all the pressure and positioning by the US pushing for Ukrainian accession to the EU, it'll never happen. The electorate here knows the score on this subject.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

20 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Of course, I posted before I read Shady Ray. Very informative and nuanced. Great work, Shady.

Reading the first part, I started doubting what I wrote above. By the second half of your post, I see that we are in alignment about how the West should dispose itself towards Belarus. 

Your information on Protasevich's likely darker history than we like in a symbol lets some reality into the story. Your criticism is more of how such stories and persons are portrayed in news media by simplistic dullards looking for white hats and black hats. I couldn't agree more.

Then you describe your scorn and desire for action against Lukashenko. Totally agree there. 

Protasevich is a symbol now. A metaphor for tyranny's impunity in taking small bites out of the international democratic fabric. Part of the democratic fabric is Idiot World and short attention spans. Sadly, we can't rely on most people to focus as well as you do on context and relative importance of facts. 

It would be just like 21st Century democracy to descend into an argument about whether Protasevich is a good guy or bad guy instead of the greater motives behind the action to capture and murder him in a dramatically public way and what motives we might have by executing whatever response we choose.

Then, of course, Real Housewives starts in about 20 minutes. What were we talking about?

 

Thanks for making me rethink my post and the issue. Never a bad idea.

There is only so much time that can be spent keeping up with events stretching from global down to each household. You have a very on point statement regarding the international democratic fabric. IMO, power does not trend democratic and that is what your point addresses. Protasevich may be or may not be connected to/supported by the West, he may be supportive of fascist ideologies, but as @Shady Rayis illuminating in his post, at some point (we) may have to pick our poison and discover which one is lethal and which one just makes us a little ill. However, as is the case with Navalny, I would argue that one cannot let malign acts or crimes against humanity get by with a tut/tut if one is going to promote agency for all of the world's citizens.

We have a lot to do in the regard with cleaning up our own house; the folks that see no issue with brutality towards prisoners because they are criminals. View that from afar pretending one is not American, and it makes us ashamed so we get defensive. "Well, in India, they beat people in the street with sticks!" and as you point out, we circle around each other distilling it into the good vs. evil, and the uncomfortable truths get put in a dark corner.

But, when we see it happen, it is a good idea to set aside the entertainment shows and educate ourselves. Bread and circuses are something we should be very very leery of and in the manner of viewing a horror movie. We sit in the dark, knowing as the young people frolic and kiss and drink their beer that in seconds the music is going to turn grim and blood is going to be everywhere. Those young people ignore all the portentous omens and foreboding and in the end, maybe one or two heroic individuals have outlasted the monster. Everyone else is collateral damage.

[MissingInAction 24824]

Never get on a flight going over land in Asia.

[RomaVicta 29794]

Compliments to Shady and Mrs. Whiggins.

Shady's information about Congressional constraints on Ukraine military funding rang a bell in another part of my mind. 

1. Some well-meaning person/faction in Congress adds a restriction to the funding bill to at least indicate that we don't want to support fascism and certainly not arm it.
2. It gets voted far enough along for rank politicians to get their tickets stamped as supporting at some point.
3. The restriction is removed (reconciliation process?)
4. The USA arms the neo-nazi battalions.

The bell ringing in my head wants to know who pulls the restrictions. Well, I want to know. The bell is just a metaphor. 

Russian and Ukraine money seems to be pouring into the US to buy influence on the one hand (short term) and to disrupt our democratic faith in process on the other (long term). I don't know if I'm seeing what I'm looking for or it is truly apparent that this is likely another avenue in which the GOP as a whole and maybe some Dems have criminally sold out the country.

I think this could be another tentacle in the GOP criminal organization now shifting to omerta.

Forgive me for throwing speculation into a conversation so well-founded in fact. I may be bending the story to a prejudice against the villainous GOP, but I don't really think so. The GOP is doing things that can just about only be explained by people facing disgrace and prison.

I've learned a lot on this thread. Thanks to you both.

Edited May 29, 2021 by RomaVicta
Bullet points in a post about bullets. Must add them!

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

It doesn't help that reading legislation w/o the filter of the media is a full time job unto itself. Much of that is easy, however, because even if the bill passes in the house, it's not like the Senate Majority Leader is going to do anything about it.

Very few bills regarding Ukraine (for example) that have been introduced in either chamber have gone passed that first step of introduction. But, if you take one such as S.4487 as it relates to Defense Funding (in which Ukraine only has a minor roll), it only has...810 amendments in a bill that is a 3MB PDF. Of course with a 736 billion dollar price tag, that's a big print out from the cash register.

That plays a large part in why people would rather pull Dallis grass out of their lawn, watch television or spend time with their families--most media have trended away from the meat and potatoes part of civilian information useful to participating and are complicit in the ad-revenue that accompanies the circus.

We the people have outsourced the running of our government and now we don't know to whom we should complain. Complain to the government? Well, Ted Cruz is in Cancun right now and he can't take your call. Complain to the private profiteers holding the reins? Well, they'll tell you the first thing you need to do (after you get back to work) is complain to the government and the second thing is to be outraged about this particular type of government called socialism because apparently being outraged at privatization hits a little too close to the mark....

[956 Worldwide 34444]

This guy being a Nazi/spy is nothing more than Kremlin and Belarusian propaganda. Some of the images circulating aren’t even  of the guy, some are misinterpreted. If you follow these issues at all comprehensively, it’s all there. And as you can see, it’s successfully worked on this very thread, as now we’re talking about Ukraine, alleged neo-Nazis, funding bills, and who might be a western spy. And we’re not talking about the fact that Lukashenka hijacked a plane under false pretenses and kidnapped two people.  I’m sure at some point the disinfo machine will crank up and find some photos that may or may not be of the girlfriend to prove that we shouldn’t care either. We just need to wait until there is a “perfect” victim to be upset.

 

You can never take your eyes off the ball. The relevant fact here is that Belarus hijacked a civilian airplane, lied about the reasons, and dragged two people to jail where they are beating them and making them give forced confessions on video. It means shit what photos there are of one of them in Ukraine in 2014 or 2015. It means shit that one of the worked for news services that receive partial funding from the U.S., which funds independent media through grants all over the world. That’s not why they’re being held and beaten in jail.  They’re there because of their work as dissidents in a place where dissidence is not allowed.  There is a difference between the West and Russia/Belarus. One is better and the other is awful. 

http://euromaidanpress.com/2021/05/26/protasevich-is-a-dissident-not-a-neo-nazi/

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2021/05/28/journalist-or-soldier

https://www.yahoo.com/news/parents-kidnapped-belarus-student-beg-121512340.html