Big Trouble in Little Belarus

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This guy being a Nazi/spy is nothing more than Kremlin and Belarusian propaganda. Some of the images circulating aren’t even  of the guy, some are misinterpreted. If you follow these issues at all comprehensively, it’s all there. And as you can see, it’s successfully worked on this very thread, as now we’re talking about Ukraine, alleged neo-Nazis, funding bills, and who might be a western spy. And we’re not talking about the fact that Lukashenka hijacked a plane under false pretenses and kidnapped two people.  I’m sure at some point the disinfo machine will crank up and find some photos that may or may not be of the girlfriend to prove that we shouldn’t care either. We just need to wait until there is a “perfect” victim to be upset.

 

You can never take your eyes off the ball. The relevant fact here is that Belarus hijacked a civilian airplane, lied about the reasons, and dragged two people to jail where they are beating them and making them give forced confessions on video. It means shit what photos there are of one of them in Ukraine in 2014 or 2015. It means shit that one of the worked for news services that receive partial funding from the U.S., which funds independent media through grants all over the world. That’s not why they’re being held and beaten in jail.  They’re there because of their work as dissidents in a place where dissidence is not allowed.  There is a difference between the West and Russia/Belarus. One is better and the other is awful. 

http://euromaidanpress.com/2021/05/26/protasevich-is-a-dissident-not-a-neo-nazi/

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2021/05/28/journalist-or-soldier

https://www.yahoo.com/news/parents-kidnapped-belarus-student-beg-121512340.html
 

Yeah I don’t give a shit who the guy was. What Belarus and Russia did to hijack a commercial plane is flat out criminal. Cut off their air travel to the EU and America. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

On 5/27/2021 at 6:31 AM, Shady Ray said:

Longcat 'bout to longcat:

 

One of the things that is interesting here is that there is a lot more going on here than just a rogue state acting in rogue ways. That entire region (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus) has been (and remains) full of cloak-and-dagger shit-particularly since 2014- and Lukashenko pulling such a brazen stunt just to get at a run-of-the-mill dissident journalist never sat right with me.

 

Belarusian dissident journos living in the Baltics and Poland crisscross Belarusian airspace alllllllll the time and some 26 year old journalist - regardless of how capable he may be in his profession- isn’t a rational justification for such internationally-alienating behavior. Geopolitics 101 freshmen simply chalk this up to Lukashenko wanting to stifle dissent, but any analysis beyond that would indicate there is more to it than that. Lukashenko is a brute, he certainly is not irrational. He certainly doesn’t pull this shit without Putin’s acquiescence and he certainly was not so foolish as to act with an unawareness of the fallout that was to come by such a repulsive act.

 

Unfortunately, in this binary world of “pro-democracy Ukrainian/Belarusian freedom fighter” vs. “Russian stooge/asset”, all nuance is lost and it looks like that is once again happening here. European media has started to recognize over the past few hours that there was at least some type of active, “on-the-ground” relationship between Protasevich and Azov Battalion - which is a war-crime-committing, openly Neo-Nazi Ukrainian regiment and has been designated as such by the U.S. Congress. BBC has reported on this relationship, as has the Times of London and various German language media outlets. Crickets in the US, of course. This group is full of unabashed Nazi scum, although, in Protasevich’s defense, not exclusively so, so his association with them should not impute, per se.

 

To note…Azov Battalion is particularly despised here in Germany because they still commemorate Einsatzgruppen atrocities as honorable, which obviously brings renewed attention to things that Germans would like to move on from. Frankly, they have been/continue to be pivotal to the Ukrainian operations in the Donbas (and the continued power of the existing government, at large), yet they are a complete fucking embarrassment to the rest of civilized Europe.

 

Anyway, on the radio here in Germany this morning there were quite some lively discussions over to what extent we should lionize someone who - at a minimum - served as a very effective propagandist for Azov, as can be seen in his prior journalistic work. As I have said in prior posts, there is a widespread Neo-Nazi element within Ukrainian society. It is true and it is not propaganda. And unfortunately, Russian propagandists seize on it to exploit the anti-Russian movement as a whole, and American media completely ignores it, thus rendering both of them completely unreliable.

 

Now, of course, the Russians - as is typical of them - are pumping out their bullshit propaganda saying he was a full, fighting member of the Azov Battalion during the Donbas conflict; and Western-European media, of course, have now scrambled saying he was a mere embedded journalist with Azov doing the Lord’s work in spreading democracy to Ukraine. In my opinion, the truth - as is typically the case on this particular conflict - is somewhere in the middle, as I do not believe that anyone over there in positions of leadership -whether for or against the existing regimes-  are particularly moral/admirable as individuals. There are pictures showing him in formation with Azov and the notorious neo-Nazi commander of Azov, Andriy Biletsky - piece of fascist shit of the highest order - apparently issued a statement on Telegram that says that Protasevich was a member of the battalion, that he was wounded in fighting near Shyrokyne…and that “his weapon was not a gun, but the written word.”

 

It is also worth noting that Protasevich:

 

• had ties to the US intel apparatus (via the below) which are not being reported, which is so fucking frustrating when trying to give US media the benefit of the doubt as being an honest and comprehensive source of information.

 

• met with the U.S. State Department in D.C. literally two days (as per his own Facebook account, which has now been locked) after going into self-imposed-exile in Poland.

 

• Then, shortly thereafter, joined as a reporter for multiple media outlets that were funded by the US, most notable of which was Radio Free Europe-Radio Liberty. (RFERL has done great things in the past, but come the fuck on, RFERL is THE US-run state media for East Europe/Russia).

 

• Then went to work for USAID-funded Euroradio.fm in Belarus. USAID, for better or worse, has long been proven to have EXTENSIVE ties to US intelligence in many different capacities worldwide.

 

• He then left these positions in late December 2019/early January 2020 to establish the Nexta channel on Telegram, which immediately became the voice of the opposition in Belarus and was instrumental in what unfolded a few months later re Belarusian protests.

 

And that is what is solidly reported/verified/provable. The Russian propaganda goes much, much further…just as the US media completely ignores it, so I will not address that here.

 

But it is fucking frustrating when publications such as The NY Times and Guardian (as they each did yesterday) do extensive bio-pieces on Protasevich, starting at age 16…literally every single aspect of his post-adolescent life…and then just gloss the fuck over his entire 4 year-western-affiliated connections/employment/Azov history and then fail to scrutinize quite an extensive social media/photographical trail of this guy that definitely paints him in a light beyond that of “good journalist”. It ignores the proven relationship with Azov entirely, which truly is a matter of journalistic malpractice or just straight dishonesty. Curious and disappointing.

 

And to be clear, I don’t think that any of these facts are disqualifying from what the media paints him to be…but they should be noted, and they aren't for some reason.

 

Now, to the issue at hand…none of the above changes the fact that Lukashenko is a complete and total piece of shit of the highest order who deserves to swing from lamppost immediately. As in 'yesterday'. And it doesn’t change the fact that what he did re that flight was illegal, terroristic and warrants the absolute highest level of international solidarity in inflicting maximum damage to his power and to the Belarusian state apparatus’ continued ability to stifle and oppress freedom. And it doesn’t change the fact that journalists should be protected, particularly those of whom have engaged in dangerous reporting with less than savory characters.

 

I simply bring up the background to set groundwork for what I think is honestly going on:

 

This was a brazen counter-intelligence operation. If you are a paranoid power-whore like Lukashenko, and there is a perceived western-funded American journalist, with extensive ties to Azov, who had jut been at the Delphi Economic Forum allegedly to cover Tsikhanouskaya in Greece, and was headed to the city in which Tsikhanouskaya -your highest profile western-supported adversary lives - and you think there is a treasure trove of intel onboard that plane that could potentially implicate your internal, hidden enemies…then you feel justified in making this move.

 

If you see some dissident 20 some-odd year journalist living in self-imposed exile-which are a dime a dozen- you don’t.

 

If Protasevich was indeed affiliated with western intel, that laptop and phone- and Protasevich as a relatively young and “soft” sort of fella - could potentially be a gold mine for Belarusian (and Russian) intel agencies. At a minimum, Lukashenko would have massive, massive levels of intel on internal adversaries and, potentially, TONS of information on the exile community in Poland/Vilnius/Riga’s interactions with the West. This was value for internal, security-apparatus use and certainly not for some internal PR initiative. And if I was involved in revolutionary shit in Minsk at the moment, I'd be shitting my pants now.

 

This entire region will start to make much, much more sense to people once one stops viewing it as democracy vs. authoritarianism and evolves to the correct viewpoint of sleazy fucks involved in intel op vs. intel op....all the fuckin' time. Because that is what it is. No one is good here. Everyone outside of the powerless are unfortunately compromised.

 

For anyone who is interested, here is a couple-day-old analysis from Jamestown. Jamestown is considered top-tier when it comes to integrity, and they are hated in Russia, so I see them as relatively honest brokers. 

 

 

 

That’s a whole shitload of words to minimize the hijacking of a commercial airplane by a couple state actors.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Sure they criminally hijacked a plane with a bunch of citizens on it, but maybe the guy they took from it was a low level spy so it’s all good.

[Willfully Horn 7915]

nmnm

Edited May 30, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Nmnm

[Shady Ray 1633]

10 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This guy being a Nazi/spy is nothing more than Kremlin and Belarusian propaganda. Some of the images circulating aren’t even  of the guy, some are misinterpreted. If you follow these issues at all comprehensively, it’s all there. And as you can see, it’s successfully worked on this very thread, as now we’re talking about Ukraine, alleged neo-Nazis, funding bills, and who might be a western spy. And we’re not talking about the fact that Lukashenka hijacked a plane under false pretenses and kidnapped two people.  I’m sure at some point the disinfo machine will crank up and find some photos that may or may not be of the girlfriend to prove that we shouldn’t care either. We just need to wait until there is a “perfect” victim to be upset.

 

You can never take your eyes off the ball. The relevant fact here is that Belarus hijacked a civilian airplane, lied about the reasons, and dragged two people to jail where they are beating them and making them give forced confessions on video. It means shit what photos there are of one of them in Ukraine in 2014 or 2015. It means shit that one of the worked for news services that receive partial funding from the U.S., which funds independent media through grants all over the world. That’s not why they’re being held and beaten in jail.  They’re there because of their work as dissidents in a place where dissidence is not allowed.  There is a difference between the West and Russia/Belarus. One is better and the other is awful. 

http://euromaidanpress.com/2021/05/26/protasevich-is-a-dissident-not-a-neo-nazi/

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2021/05/28/journalist-or-soldier

https://www.yahoo.com/news/parents-kidnapped-belarus-student-beg-121512340.html
 

First off, you can't claim Kremlin propaganda and then turn around and push the mother of all Ukrainian propaganda outlets, Euromaidan Press as somehow non-propagandistic, as is shown by the fact that they basically yada yada over Azov's true nazi characteristics in that exact piece. And I don't really see an interview with his parents as anything particularly dispositive. Plus, he literally admits being in the Donbas, with Azov, during that exact period of time with a Belarusian unit within Azov. Hell, Andriy fucking Biletsky admitted it on his own Telegraph channel. And he had plenty photos taken along with Azov...and specifically the Belarusian Detachment, Pahonia, on his Facebook page before it was locked.

 

But you are exactly right. This IS about Lukashenko. This is about a gross miscarriage of justice and criminality. NONE of this justifies his actions. And herein lies is my point...when Western media completely ignores this stuff, it paves the way for foreign influencers, such as the Kremlin, to seed the debate on its own terms. I actually agree with you that some of these items items as outlined in the Meduza piece most likely are disinformation. But plenty of it isn't. He was with Azov, he, at least, during that time was photographed in Nazi apparel. He didn't publish sweet fuck all. He never criticized the unit. He never released a photo outside of his FB. So when the media ignores it wholly, it allows those much less-versed on this topic than you or I to fill in their own narratives. The alternative would be for the media to stop with the incessant hagiography pieces and just tell us the full fucking story, even if it does take some of the shine off of a person who is, ultimately, the victim here . Which they don't do. Faith in the media is one of the single biggest deterrents to foreign disinformation campaigns. And while we rightly and justly condemn the right wing in the US for constantly assaulting the media, we should at the same time expect our media to not constantly take black vs. white, good vs. evil in every foreign policy piece that they issue and simply report.

 

But you are right, the atrocities committed by self-proclaimed neo-Nazis in Ukraine that we as Americans have funded/armed directly in our names for years is probably better discussed in the Ukraine thread, as Lukashenko's atrocious behavior should stand alone to be highlighted. Apologies to the board for that.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Shady Ray

[Shady Ray 1633]

7 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

That’s a whole shitload of words to minimize the hijacking of a commercial airplane by a couple state actors.

If that was the impression you took from that, I apologize. I genuinely tried to deliver a nuanced position.

 

So to be clear:

1. Lukashenko and his associates should hang, both for this incident, but even moreso for the multitude of lives they have taken and atrocities they have committed against innocents.

2. The neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, who Protasevich was - at least embedded - with during the years in which unspeakable atrocities against innocent civilians which occurred with weapons and tech supplied by your tax dollars and by mine, should hang next to them. 

Just because I despise one, doesn't mean I can't despise the other, as well. Systemic atrocities against innocents are atrocities against innocents, regardless who commits them.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Shady Ray

[956 Worldwide 34444]

I mean, we’re kind of back to where we were at the beginning, which is that multiple Azov fighters including the commander have said openly that he never fought for them. And that at most,  the evidence that he was a neo-Nazi or sympathizer is that he took some photos with Azov gear and not criticizing them enough when he was still a journalism student and 20 years old.  And oh, lots of the worst photos are disinformation anyway.

And while we’re on nuance, it’s good to remember the context— which is that the Ukrainian military had to throw hastily assembled volunteer brigades, including Azov, into a war they did not start because that’s the only force they could put into the field. And that Azov has been pulled off the front-lines and replaced by regular military.  It’s also really rich that the Kremlin crows about Ukrainian fascists while there is only one state power in the region that recruits, funds and supports neo-Nazis and far right groups actively outside of its border as an element of its foreign policy and that is Russia. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/russia-is-co-opting-angry-young-men/568741/

And of course, there’s the inconvenient fact that Russia and their puppet rebels have deployed a all-star lineup of human rights violating irregular forces and mercenaries in Donbas from Vostok to Kadyrovtsy to the Wagner Group to Russian ultranationalists to Serb volunteers that feel they missed out on doing war crimes back in the 1990s.  It is almost impossible to find an element of the insurgent fighting force that IS NOT ultranationalist, new-fascist, or war criminals. The entire insurgent power structure and behavior is and been basically a single ongoing war crime and human rights violation. 

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf

Its kind of both-sides- ism at its most blatant, to pick the worst example from one side (the side that didn’t start the conflict and that is at least making an EFFORT to normalize the situation and implement reforms) and treat it as even remotely equivalent to the side that started a war, that unapologetically and openly commits war crimes and international law violations as its official policy, and in the insurgents case— whose actual existence is a violation of any norms or law. 

And that’s kind of how Kremlin disinformation campaigns work— to overwhelm the information space with a mix of lies, misinterpreted truths, cries of outrage that might be legitimate but are completely one sided, and endless rabbit trails through the undergrowth. They will never convince most people to support them, but the goal is to foster enough disillusion and synapse fatigue that people just say “well, both sides are terrible so let’s just let them sort it out.” And of course, thats how the bigger, stronger power wins. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shady Ray 1633]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I mean, we’re kind of back to where we were at the beginning, which is that multiple Azov fighters including the commander have said openly that he never fought for them. And that at most,  the evidence that he was a neo-Nazi or sympathizer is that he took some photos with Azov gear and not criticizing them enough when he was still a journalism student and 20 years old.  And oh, lots of the worst photos are disinformation anyway.

And while we’re on nuance, it’s good to remember the context— which is that the Ukrainian military had to throw hastily assembled volunteer brigades, including Azov, into a war they did not start because that’s the only force they could put into the field. And that Azov has been pulled off the front-lines and replaced by regular military.  It’s also really rich that the Kremlin crows about Ukrainian fascists while there is only one state power in the region that recruits, funds and supports neo-Nazis and far right groups actively outside of its border as an element of its foreign policy and that is Russia. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/russia-is-co-opting-angry-young-men/568741/

And of course, there’s the inconvenient fact that Russia and their puppet rebels have deployed a all-star lineup of human rights violating irregular forces and mercenaries in Donbas from Vostok to Kadyrovtsy to the Wagner Group to Russian ultranationalists to Serb volunteers that feel they missed out on doing war crimes back in the 1990s.  It is almost impossible to find an element of the insurgent fighting force that IS NOT ultranationalist, new-fascist, or war criminals. The entire insurgent power structure and behavior is and been basically a single ongoing war crime and human rights violation. 

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf

Its kind of both-sides- ism at its most blatant, to pick the worst example from one side (the side that didn’t start the conflict and that is at least making an EFFORT to normalize the situation and implement reforms) and treat it as even remotely equivalent to the side that started a war, that unapologetically and openly commits war crimes and international law violations as its official policy, and in the insurgents case— whose actual existence is a violation of any norms or law. 

And that’s kind of how Kremlin disinformation campaigns work— to overwhelm the information space with a mix of lies, misinterpreted truths, cries of outrage that might be legitimate but are completely one sided, and endless rabbit trails through the undergrowth. They will never convince most people to support them, but the goal is to foster enough disillusion and synapse fatigue that people just say “well, both sides are terrible so let’s just let them sort it out.” And of course, thats how the bigger, stronger power wins. 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually agree with a lot of what you say here. And, as usual, I really appreciate and enjoy your informed take.

 

Let’s not mix this up and presume that I defend the sleaze that is Russia’s behavior in this conflict. But out of respect for the board who may not want to sift through more of my ramblings on Ukraine, I will spoiler discussion about Ukraine below, even though it is very much related to the Belarus situation, as all three of these are at risk of converging into a situation that goes hot.

Spoiler

 

Let’s be intellectually honest here. I am not speaking about the larger nature of disinformation campaigns, which you are correct in analyzing. I am speaking about the actual, provable ties that frankly, aren't being rebuffed in any significant way out there. Even Bellingcat is acknowledging that there could be a "there" there. 

 

Bottom line, there is much, much more evidence pointing to the fact that he was a small time, intra-ukranian PR agent for Azov than there is that he was a teenage war reporter. And that doesn’t justify his treatment, lest anyone misinterpret. This is a discussion on media coverage and intellectual honestly. But, this should be easy to show…one credited photo…not even internationally, but even just in Russian or Ukrainian press. One article. One piece of journalistic work from what was one of the most dangerous, difficult-to-cover conflicts over the past decade. Either during, or after hostilities stopped. That’s it. While my preliminary search showing nothing certainly is not dispositive, Mrs. Shady is quite the Russian speaker and has also done a search in Russian at my request, and nothing. Zilch. Nada. Nothing in German, of course. Nothing in English. Nothing in Russian, which, of course, is a native language of the conflict zone in Donbas. No journalistic proof of any type.

 

There should be evidence supporting this, and frankly, there isn’t. So no, this isn’t about him “not speaking out enough”…it’s about there being no evidence that he spoke journalistically whatsoever -either in the form of the written word, as Biletsky claimed before this shit really got rolling - or via photographic proof or photographic credits to any publication whatsoever outside of his FB page. Literally nothing. And yeah, I will take the neo-nazi Azov-leader Biletsky’s present sense impression on the same date of his illegal arrest along with Biletsky’s statement against interest long before some two-bit unknown commanders are trotted out in his defense days AFTER the incident with a pulse of what PR objectives are. And even their statements don't matter...they are saying he wasn't 'fighting'? Ok, fine. Understand. So he was "journalizin'". Then there will be proof. Biletsky spoke that day and said he was with Azov, in Donbas, wounded at Shyrokyne, and fought with them. The other linguistic option would be that he “struggled” with them. Either way, there should be journalistic proof. Because ultimately, fighting vs. journalism doesn’t matter if that “journalism” was used in furtherance of Azov's PR campaigns instead of informing the world of events.

 

So let’s leave it at that…if he was a journalist with them, let’s see the proof. Because I see evidence that - as you said - a 20 year old was in the field with Azov. And I see evidence that he sported swastika-laden apparel in his private time from his own page. And I see strong evidence that he stood in Azov with their Wolfsangel gear. And to note, I am leaving aside a plethora of information that - in my opinion - is inconclusive and not worth providing his detractors with the benefit of the doubt...such as that whited out article in Belarusian news or that silly anonymous interview with some dude named "Kim" as a nom de guerre, which seems to be making the rounds. That stuff seems silly and it seems like something easy manipulated. But I really don’t have evidence that he performed one single act of journalism, and - given the public nature of that very profession - I imagine that should be easy to provide. So until it is, I will assume that which my eyes tell me, and not what the publications who have lied to us for war after war, year after year, determine is newsworthy and what is not.

 

Let me ask you this, as you rightfully referenced Serbian mercenaries as being the genocidal scum that they are, consider the quote:

 

"At once I will cross the “i’s”. Yes, Roman together with Azov and other military units, fought against the occupation of Ukraine. He was with us near Shirokyne, where he was wounded. But his weapon as a journalist was not a machine gun, but a word." — Andriy Biletsky

 

If it instead read:

 

"At once I will cross the “i’s”. Yes, Miroslav, together with the Army of Republika Srpska and other military units, fought against the invasion of Bosnia. He was with us near Mostar, where he was wounded. But his weapon as a journalist was not a machine gun, but a word." — Ratko Mladić

 

If Mladić made this same statement in 1995 about a journalist, would you see that journalist as an objective journalistic actor or a PR agent for the Army of Republika Srpska? Because that is precisely what we have here. A known genocidal war-criminal (who honestly, is only free and still operating because of U.S. support) speaking out in defense of a supposed journalist - albeit one with no journalistic works to show, of course.

 

And to be clear, I am absolutely NOT discounting any subsequent work he may have done as fascistic/wrong/objectionable in nature. None. But my point remains that I view his possible association with European Nazis as important, not in the case of whether the plane hijacking was justified...clearly it was not...but more along the separate lines of I would like to know if we were funding someone associated with this shitstain movement. And we all have the right to know. Our media and our military and our leaders have time and time again funneled weapons, money and intel to individuals who are terrible, only to have it come back and totally fuck us and/or our partners. So I think it is relevant to have this reported on, regardless of how evil our adversaries are.

 

Regarding the Russians funding, recruiting and arming Neo-Nazis, does anyone dispute that? Does anyone paying attention honestly not know that they and their soldiers are war criminals? Because that seems to be pretty common knowledge to me. At least for anyone who flips on the news on any given night over say, the past 80 years. And particularly over the last 8.

 

What isn’t common knowledge for most of the US population is that we are also funding war criminals. And not just in the early stages of the war -as you correctly said - but years after those very war criminals have been called out, identified and named by the EU, UN, etc. as such. We have not insisted that these bastards are purged from the positions of high-rank that they currently sit within Ukrainian armed forces…on the contrary, US military officers ignore it and come to Europe as recently as this year and apply public pressure on our hesitant leaders in Europe to accede to letting them into NATO and the EU. We provide them with hundreds of millions of dollars every year under the auspices of "oh, well, it won't go to the bad guys on the front". And, in fact, to answer @RomaVicta question above, while I can’t say which congressional rep removed the restrictions I described, I can say that it was acknowledged as being the Pentagon who actively pressured to have that restriction on arming Azov stripped year after year.

 

Quote

And yet by the time November came around and the conference debate over the year-end appropriations bill was underway, the Conyers-Yoho measure appeared to be in jeopardy. And indeed it was. An official familiar with the debate told The Nation that the House Defense Appropriations Committee came under pressure from the Pentagon to remove the Conyers-Yoho amendment from the text of the bill.

Congress Has Removed a Ban on Funding Neo-Nazis from its Year-End Spending Bill

 

Big surprise given our history with overlooking the employment of Nazis and jihadists, so long as they carry out our geopolitical goals. And that is what is infuriating. A just result would be for the two sides to engage in combat only for the Sweet Meteor of Death to strike firmly and widely on the battlefield completely obliterating the lot of them. But, in spite of all of our prayers, as has been shown not to be the case in aggy-OUSux games in the past, the Lord doesn’t bless his faithful in that way.

 

So you are right…context is important, and personally, the continued arming of Nazis is wrong, evil and repulsive. Regardless of the context in of some stupid inter-slavic conflict thousands of miles away, all the while our citizens can’t pay their fucking hospital bills and our elderly work until they are 75. 

 

But here is the point for the future re Ukraine. No one here in Germany - which to its credit keeps its eye on Ukrainian behavior due to its widespread-nazi sympathies - is naive here. Literally not one political party, (with the recent exception of the Green’s Robert Habeck, who is currently taking it in the shorts for advocating supplying defensive weapons to them and is paying the price for it politically) from the far-right AFD to the Centrist CDU to the communist Linke supports any type of truly deeper integration/involement with Ukraine. Same with France. They may all differ on the desirability of deeper connections with Russia, but none of them are stupid enough to advocate for deeper ties with THE ethonationalist basketcase of Europe. Oh, they will play the game to appease the US and kick the can down the road with “goals for Ukrainian EU accession by five, ten years from now”, but Ukraine won’t be joining NATO anytime soon and it certainly will not gain EU admission until it remedies its continual, 70-year Nazi problem. And while some in Central Europe/Baltics may throw stones and say that it is Germano-Franco-chauvinism, it is actually chalked up to one thing, which is an electorate with a deep, fundamental knowledge of a toxic situation and an absolute unwillingness to bestow Free Movement of People upon a population that is as fundamentally confused on a toxic ideology that was successfully purged from Europe in the main 75 years ago.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Shady Ray

[GW Hayduke 1952]

On 5/28/2021 at 10:48 AM, Shady Ray said:

No one is saying he is a super spy. But he sure as fuck isn't Havel or Walesa. And to compare him to them is a bit of a stretch and dishonors both of those honorable men.

I am simply saying he is more than some tween journalist with a big heart operating a social media channel in a hot conflict zone. Ultimately, you and I fundamentally agree with the degree to which the US engages in intel/regime-change ops around the world, and more specifically, in Ukraine and Belarus. You seem to believe that their uprisings are organic; I believe that they show all the signs of tried and true color revolutions that the US engages in around the world and has facilitated for decades. That doesn't mean that I side with the other side...as I have said in the past, I am long removed from the US, with no intention of returning, and I no longer see its actions as good or bad, but rather purely geopolitical and interesting as a subject for casual study. But I digress.

But, let me get this straight...an 18 year old Belarusian, decked out in full Azov Battalion gear, standing under the Wolfsangel during a march literally dedicated to PRAISING the atrocities of the Nazi-Era Einsatzgruppen, who from his own Facebook page is seen sporting Sva Stone swastika-clad clothing (a brand which, btw, is illegal in Germany, due to its well-known fascistic nature), who has no attributable journalistic works/photographs to his name during this timeframe beyond his own FB page (which has now been conveniently deleted), was not acting as a press agent (read, propagandist) for Azov, but rather as an independent and objective journalist? Ok, well we can disagree on the applicability of Occam's Razor here. Perhaps he was just old enough at 18 to "cover" the single most important geopolitical conflict of 2014 on the front lines as a journalist, but just wasn't mature enough yet to know that swastikas=bad.

Do "embedded journalists" deck out in the gear of their "embedded" entities to march in cities that are no longer hostile locations like he did here in Mariupol in 2015? Because, that isn't my experience in following war correspondents for decades now. I don't recall one single war correspondent marching with Serbian ethnonationalists in the 1990s and claiming to "cover" them. I don't recall it in Gulf War 1 or 2 (Electric Boogaloo). I don't recall it on either side in Afghanistan. I don't even recall it in Iraq, where our media certainly was compromised. I don't recall it in my research on Vietnam. As a matter of fact, I only recall it in circumstances where "journalists" acted as propagandists. But the reasons that I should give a shit about the fate of someone decked out in Azov fatigues at a march through the streets of a secured Mariupol, standing under the Wolfsangel, are pretty much lost on me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And those images of him were dated 2015, from his own FB feed, before it was locked. 

And that goes to my point...The NY Times and Guardian bio-pieces that I referenced certainly did not cover his employment with RFE/RL. Those pieces didn't even mention his "embedded" position with Azov. Do you not think that such a position within journalism - on the front lines of the war with Russia in 2014 - would be the absolute highlight of his young journalistic career? Then why COMPLETELY ignore it? Why not show his prior journalistic work? Why not touch on that period of his brief career to date? Could it be that it isn't relevant to the reader getting to know this freedom fighter, or could it be that perhaps, just perhaps, that Facebook posts from his teenaged years, which have now been inexplicably removed, don't support the idea of a young 18 year old photo-journalist, but rather a kid who decided to play soldier with a bunch of neo-Nazis who got caught up in something waaaaay over his head. 

Did he ever publish photographs that were in any way detrimental to the human-scum known as Azov on his limited platforms, of which (knowing that barbaric group) should have been plentiful? No, he didn't.

Did he ever speak against Azov after his time as an "embedded journalist" ended? No, he didn't.

Does the leader of the Azov Battalion, Andriy Biletsky - a known war criminal and fascist - to this day still support him and claim that he fought with them? Yes, he does. As recently as yesterday.

If an "embedded reporter" accompanied the original Nazi Einsatzgruppen (to which Azov to this day honors) through their atrocious march through Belarus, Ukraine and Wester Russia in 1941, yet never once published photos capturing this group in any other light other than hagiographic, would that make such a reporter a reporter or a propagandist? I think we both know this answer.

Of course, none of this exonerates Lukashenko, but when you say that there is even one degree of virtue over the existing regimes, is that truly the case?

The UN has documented Azov's beheadings of civilians, mass rapes of Russian-Ukrainian villages, published calls for mass cleansing of ethnic Russians, systemic rape of the mental and physically disabled, forced sodomy and even the documented anal-electrocution of a mentally handicapped man...the list goes on and on. And it is documented. So, no, these people aren't "a damn site better". They are just as filthy and deserve just as brutal of an ending. Lampposts for all of them. Swing in that strong Eastern European breeze, the lot of them. 

The difference between the two is that while we amplify the atrocities of Russian-aligned dictators with a steady drumbeat of news coverage disavowing their acts - and deservedly so - we, at most, issue dated and occasional "below the fold" articles reporting on the atrocities of those fascists who we literally arm in Ukraine...and yes, I know that our arms are technically banned from Azov as of late 2018 (of course, that comes 4 YEARS AFTER they were documented by reputable NGOs and the UN as engaging in the above!), but do you honestly believe that non-Azov recipients of our military aid don't immediately funnel them to - as you said - their most effective fighting force against the Russians? Come on. This is more than "a nasty bunch". These are genocidal nazis, who are associated with this guy and who warrant mentioning in this story, assuming truth is what we are after.

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf

And let me be clear...NONE of this is conclusive. NONE if this justifies Lukashenko's barbarism. NONE of this justifies the suffering that this kid is likely experiencing today. But it absolutely is worth mentioning the fucking word "Azov" in the same stories in which we lionize this guy as a freedom fighter. So no, the media in the US hasn't covered this. No, the media has not focused on his history with the US State Department. No, the media hasn't disclosed that his prior non-RFERL employer was completely USAID financed. The media hasn't covered the fact that American taxpayers bankrolled the organization that started Nexta. And that is relevant. And that is journalistic malpractice and it is THAT which frustrates me. We deserve better from our media.

The American people deserve to know that this isn't a dissident journalist/activist along the lines of Walesa or Havel. They deserve to know the full story, which they currently are not getting and that is for one simple reason...it doesn't support the narrative that they want us to see. They don't want us to see how much we armed Azov. They don't want us to see how involved we were in what went on over there. They don't want us to see what our taxes finance in atrocities and they don't want us to know the degree of fucking filth that we support.

So they don't cover it.

And notwithstanding the content of this post, fuck Lukashenko, may he meet his painful demise soon. 

 

The second picture of the t-shirt appears doctored IMO. The first pic of the head on an guy in fatigues could easily be created. Where did you get them? I know you say they are from his FB feed from 2015 before it was locked. Did you get these from his Facebook page? Can you share the link? Do you know why his FB page has been locked since 2015?  I don’t know a lot FB pics but I know normal images can have their metadata changed.  Where did you come across all of that is my main question?

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Nah, this ain’t it.  “Tried and true color revolutions that the U.S. engages in...” is pure, uncut Kremlin disinfo straight from the source.  And it’s just thrown in there along with the other stuff.  This is literally straight out of the RT/Sputnik/Parlamentni Listy phrasebook, usually followed up with “and Toria Nuland had a frank intragovernmental phone call, and that proves everything.”

The portrait of Ukraine that emerges here is also straight out of the playbook— elements of truth (there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine, very likely rather more proportionally on the Russian side), lots of shocking war crimes committed in the East (and of course, UNHCR isn’t allowed in Crimea at all and is seriously restricted in Donbas), The Azov Battalion, as nasty as it is, is nothing on the scale (qualitative or quantifiable) as Serbian regular or irregular forces in the Balkan War. A reminder that Mladic personally ordered the murder of 8,300 people at Srebrenica. 

[Shady Ray 1633]

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

The second picture of the t-shirt appears doctored IMO. The first pic of the head on an guy in fatigues could easily be created. Where did you get them? I know you say they are from his FB feed from 2015 before it was locked. Did you get these from his Facebook page? Can you share the link? Do you know why his FB page has been locked since 2015?  I don’t know a lot FB pics but I know normal images can have their metadata changed.  Where did you come across all of that is my main question?

The picture of him in Azov fatigues was from the linked Vkontakte account (Russian FB), which is locked, but still there. You can see the timestamp from 2015, and, if you have the stomach to fight through the revulsion triggered by modern-era Nazi rallies that your tax dollars paid for, just sift through the hundreds of images showing how many people turned out to support National Socialists in Ukraine in 2015. Let there be no doubt that there is significant Nazi support in Ukraine. MAGA-type chuds galore...it is honestly stunning how similar the physical features/demeanor is.

 

https://vk.com/photo-72444174_368416418

 

The rest was linked through Jake Hanrahan - a verified, real-deal actual "embedded reporter" who received the DuPont award for excellence in journalism out of Columbia U School of Journalism for his work on international hate groups, served jail time in Turkey after being embedded with the Kurds fighting the Turks - who is one of the best reporters on the planet when it comes to guerrilla warfare, on the ground with Ukrainians in Donbas, on the ground in Syria, Gaza, Myanmar etc. And, who, by the way has probably the best podcast out there on disinformation, the bullshit known as Q, weapons trafficking, etc. He ain't gonna toe the line of either side, but he is legit. 

 

 

There are other links relating to his likeness from Bellingcat contributor, Oleskiy Kuzmenko, which to me seem more tenuous for sure. Although the image of the cover of Black Sun has absolutely been verified as coming from that date, as there are plenty of archival records from back then showing the same cover, the imaging that Black Sun uses on their covers is traditionally filtered, so I would not stand behind that.

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/author/oleksiykuzmenko/

 

And you go to my point...metadata can be manipulated and disinformation is absolutely out there, it is not as cut and dry as we would like. So I am more than happy to be wrong. In fact, I would love to be. I would love to see some journalism from him showing that he was a journalist while with Azov.

 

I would love to be wrong about the fact that he is standing alongside an individual with glasses in front of the guy that (at least from the photos from 2015, looks exactly like Protasevich), Stanislav Goncharov, who is now in jail on the charges of "inciting hatred against another race", which frankly is a stunning, stunning charge given his ink, but who did a front-page interview on Belsat.TV, (oh, which is a media organization directly funded by YOUR US tax dollars), in which he showed off his lovely tattoos, and justified them saying, "I support the idea of National Socialism...it is the only form of life." And honestly, I would give this guy 100% the benefit of the doubt as a freedom fighter had it not been for the fucking hitler and auschwitz homage tattooed across his fucking back.

 

https://naviny.belsat.eu/ru/news/otstante-ot-tatuirovok-on-priehal-pomogat-dobroe-slovo-pro-terror-mashinu/

 

And I am not reading propaganda here...I am reading directly from the headlines "Get over the tattoos, a word from the Terror Machine" from the publication, Belsat.TV, that our taxpayer dollars fund. The outlet actually often does outstanding work...but they don't apparently have a "Nazi" filter on their code of journalistic conduct, but for the sake of this discussion, I feel their timestamps and image archives are pretty solid.

 

You can auto translate if you would like, but here are the choice photos and translations directly from that US-supported publication back in 2016, which is absolutely consistent with the Azov thread I posted above.

 

So if the Russians manipulated it, they would have had to manipulated half his face back when this article was published back in 2016, 5 years before he was illegally arrested. I took the direct photo image from the US-funded publication...oh, and notice the weapon.

 

Spoiler for NSFW content. And let's put it this way, the "88" tattooed across his chest is something that I am not allowed to send as a German permanent resident, so you can look that up yourself if you don't know it. You can see the imagery on it.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*twins=brothers here. She is clearly gender language meaning "it" for us English speakers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take of this what you will, but my point remains...we fund Nazis. We fund Ukrainian Nazis and we fund Belarusian Nazis. And our media owes us the truth about what we are doing.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Shady Ray

[GW Hayduke 1952]

On 5/27/2021 at 6:31 AM, Shady Ray said:

It is also worth noting that Protasevich:

Why is any of that worth noting?  Isn't that all to be expected by a guy on a dictator's shitlist?  

 

On 5/27/2021 at 6:31 AM, Shady Ray said:

all nuance is lost and it looks like that is once again happening here. European media has started to recognize over the past few hours that there was at least some type of active, “on-the-ground” relationship between Protasevich and Azov Battalion - which is a war-crime-committing, openly Neo-Nazi Ukrainian regiment and has been designated as such by the U.S. Congress. BBC has reported on this relationship, as has the Times of London and various German language media outlets. Crickets in the US, of course.

Your position seems to be that western media should label this guy a "nazi." Your position is founded on the idea that Azoz is linked to nazis, and the degree of that link is arguable.  Then Protasevich has a relationship with Azoz, and the degree of that relationship is arguable.  Based on these two degrees of relationships, Protasevich is tainted.  That is obvious muddying the waters. Clear as day. Where did you pick up this narrative?  Why are there no sources?

You state Protasevich was "embedded" and "on the ground" with Azoz.  Weren't they fighting the russian's in 2014 and if anyone was covering the fighting they likely covered Azoz?  Is Fergal Keane also tainted with nazi ties?  https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-29086403

On 5/28/2021 at 10:48 AM, Shady Ray said:

But, let me get this straight...an 18 year old Belarusian, decked out in full Azov Battalion gear, standing under the Wolfsangel during a march literally dedicated to PRAISING the atrocities of the Nazi-Era Einsatzgruppen, who from his own Facebook page is seen sporting Sva Stone swastika-clad clothing (a brand which, btw, is illegal in Germany, due to its well-known fascistic nature), who has no attributable journalistic works/photographs to his name during this timeframe beyond his own FB page (which has now been conveniently deleted), was not acting as a press agent (read, propagandist) for Azov, but rather as an independent and objective journalist? Ok, well we can disagree on the applicability of Occam's Razor here. Perhaps he was just old enough at 18 to "cover" the single most important geopolitical conflict of 2014 on the front lines as a journalist, but just wasn't mature enough yet to know that swastikas=bad.

Do "embedded journalists" deck out in the gear of their "embedded" entities to march in cities that are no longer hostile locations like he did here in Mariupol in 2015? Because, that isn't my experience in following war correspondents for decades now. I don't recall one single war correspondent marching with Serbian ethnonationalists in the 1990s and claiming to "cover" them. I don't recall it in Gulf War 1 or 2 (Electric Boogaloo). I don't recall it on either side in Afghanistan. I don't even recall it in Iraq, where our media certainly was compromised. I don't recall it in my research on Vietnam. As a matter of fact, I only recall it in circumstances where "journalists" acted as propagandists. But the reasons that I should give a shit about the fate of someone decked out in Azov fatigues at a march through the streets of a secured Mariupol, standing under the Wolfsangel, are pretty much lost on me.

Why are there no sources here?  Where did you get these narratives?  I know you've referenced the BBC is establishing ties.  Below is what the BBC provides (with a source).

Quote

Aside from a new air traffic control transcript that contradicts the version of events given by Belarusian state TV, the pro-Lukashenko press has portrayed the dissident journalist as an extremist with right-wing sympathies.

Belarus Segodnya, a newspaper published by the presidential administration, has claimed that Mr Protasevich was a mercenary who fought in eastern Ukraine with the nationalist Azov Battalion, which has been accused of neo-Nazi links.

Mr Protasevich confirmed in an interview last year that he had spent a year in the conflict-hit Donbas region and was wounded, but said he was covering the conflict as a journalist and photographer.

A former commander of the Azov unit has backed Mr Protasevich's version of events, confirming that he spent time with them as a journalist and was wounded.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57239521

 

On 5/28/2021 at 10:48 AM, Shady Ray said:

Did he ever publish photographs that were in any way detrimental to the human-scum known as Azov on his limited platforms, of which (knowing that barbaric group) should have been plentiful? No, he didn't.

Did he ever speak against Azov after his time as an "embedded journalist" ended? No, he didn't.

Does the leader of the Azov Battalion, Andriy Biletsky - a known war criminal and fascist - to this day still support him and claim that he fought with them? Yes, he does. As recently as yesterday.

Where are you getting any of this? Why no sources?

On 5/28/2021 at 12:14 PM, Mrs Whiggins said:

Based on the conversations, I wouldn't call him a hero--if he really is a fascist, then he's just a different flavor of Lukashenko, but it doesn't make what Lukashenko did right either.

 

On 5/28/2021 at 12:35 PM, RomaVicta said:

Of course, I posted before I read Shady Ray. Very informative and nuanced. Great work, Shady.

Reading the first part, I started doubting what I wrote above. By the second half of your post, I see that we are in alignment about how the West should dispose itself towards Belarus. 

Come on folks.  Mrs. Whiggins and RomaVicta are intelligent posters here.  You guys have seemingly fallen for a muddying of the waters - a narrative crafted with zero sources and hinges on a weak two degree relationship (Nazi -> Azoz -> Kid).    

[GW Hayduke 1952]

5 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

The picture of him in Azov fatigues was from the linked Vkontakte account (Russian FB), which is locked, but still there. You can see the timestamp from 2015, and, if you have the stomach to fight through the revulsion triggered by modern-era Nazi rallies that your tax dollars paid for, just sift through the hundreds of images showing how many people turned out to support National Socialists in Ukraine in 2015. Let there be no doubt that there is significant Nazi support in Ukraine. MAGA-type chuds galore...it is honestly stunning how similar the physical features/demeanor is.

 

https://vk.com/photo-72444174_368416418

 

The rest was linked through Jake Hanrahan - a verified, real-deal actual "embedded reporter" who received the DuPont award for excellence in journalism out of Columbia U School of Journalism for his work on international hate groups, served jail time in Turkey after being embedded with the Kurds fighting the Turks - who is one of the best reporters on the planet when it comes to guerrilla warfare, on the ground with Ukrainians in Donbas, on the ground in Syria, Gaza, Myanmar etc. And, who, by the way has probably the best podcast out there on disinformation, the bullshit known as Q, weapons trafficking, etc. He ain't gonna toe the line of either side, but he is legit. 

 

 

There are other links relating to his likeness from Bellingcat contributor, Oleskiy Kuzmenko, which to me seem more tenuous for sure. Although the image of the cover of Black Sun has absolutely been verified as coming from that date, as there are plenty of archival records from back then showing the same cover, the imaging that Black Sun uses on their covers is traditionally filtered, so I would not stand behind that.

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/author/oleksiykuzmenko/

 

And you go to my point...metadata can be manipulated and disinformation is absolutely out there, it is not as cut and dry as we would like. So I am more than happy to be wrong. In fact, I would love to be. I would love to see some journalism from him showing that he was a journalist while with Azov.

 

I would love to be wrong about the fact that he is standing alongside an individual with glasses in front of the guy that (at least from the photos from 2015, looks exactly like Protasevich), Stanislav Goncharov, who is now in jail on the charges of "inciting hatred against another race", which frankly is a stunning, stunning charge given his ink, but who did a front-page interview on Belsat.TV, (oh, which is a media organization directly funded by YOUR US tax dollars), in which he showed off his lovely tattoos, and justified them saying, "I support the idea of National Socialism...it is the only form of life." And honestly, I would give this guy 100% the benefit of the doubt as a freedom fighter had it not been for the fucking hitler and auschwitz homage tattooed across his fucking back.

 

https://naviny.belsat.eu/ru/news/otstante-ot-tatuirovok-on-priehal-pomogat-dobroe-slovo-pro-terror-mashinu/

 

And I am not reading propaganda here...I am reading directly from the headlines "Get over the tattoos, a word from the Terror Machine" from the publication, Belsat.TV, that our taxpayer dollars fund. The outlet actually often does outstanding work...but they don't apparently have a "Nazi" filter on their code of journalistic conduct, but for the sake of this discussion, I feel their timestamps and image archives are pretty solid.

 

You can auto translate if you would like, but here are the choice photos and translations directly from that US-supported publication back in 2016, which is absolutely consistent with the Azov thread I posted above.

 

So if the Russians manipulated it, they would have had to manipulated half his face back when this article was published back in 2016, 5 years before he was illegally arrested. I took the direct photo image from the US-funded publication...oh, and notice the weapon.

 

Spoiler for NSFW content. And let's put it this way, the "88" tattooed across his chest is something that I am not allowed to send as a German permanent resident, so you can look that up yourself if you don't know it. You can see the imagery on it.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*twins=brothers here. She is clearly gender language meaning "it" for us English speakers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take of this what you will, but my point remains...we fund Nazis. We fund Ukrainian Nazis and we fund Belarusian Nazis. And our media owes us the truth about what we are doing.

 

 

No offense bro, but russian FB isn't a good source to use especially when muddying the waters against an anti-russian journalist.  Twitter takes are also not that helpful, especially when the BBC has already evaluated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57239521

Quote

Aside from a new air traffic control transcript that contradicts the version of events given by Belarusian state TV, the pro-Lukashenko press has portrayed the dissident journalist as an extremist with right-wing sympathies.

Belarus Segodnya, a newspaper published by the presidential administration, has claimed that Mr Protasevich was a mercenary who fought in eastern Ukraine with the nationalist Azov Battalion, which has been accused of neo-Nazi links.

Mr Protasevich confirmed in an interview last year that he had spent a year in the conflict-hit Donbas region and was wounded, but said he was covering the conflict as a journalist and photographer.

A former commander of the Azov unit has backed Mr Protasevich's version of events, confirming that he spent time with them as a journalist and was wounded.

Your narrative seems to align perfectly with pro-Lukashenko press (per the BBC).  

[GW Hayduke 1952]

20 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

The picture of him in Azov fatigues was from the linked Vkontakte account (Russian FB), which is locked, but still there. You can see the timestamp from 2015, and, if you have the stomach to fight through the revulsion triggered by modern-era Nazi rallies that your tax dollars paid for, just sift through the hundreds of images showing how many people turned out to support National Socialists in Ukraine in 2015. Let there be no doubt that there is significant Nazi support in Ukraine. MAGA-type chuds galore...it is honestly stunning how similar the physical features/demeanor is.

 

https://vk.com/photo-72444174_368416418

 

The rest was linked through Jake Hanrahan - a verified, real-deal actual "embedded reporter" who received the DuPont award for excellence in journalism out of Columbia U School of Journalism for his work on international hate groups, served jail time in Turkey after being embedded with the Kurds fighting the Turks - who is one of the best reporters on the planet when it comes to guerrilla warfare, on the ground with Ukrainians in Donbas, on the ground in Syria, Gaza, Myanmar etc. And, who, by the way has probably the best podcast out there on disinformation, the bullshit known as Q, weapons trafficking, etc. He ain't gonna toe the line of either side, but he is legit. 

 

 

There are other links relating to his likeness from Bellingcat contributor, Oleskiy Kuzmenko, which to me seem more tenuous for sure. Although the image of the cover of Black Sun has absolutely been verified as coming from that date, as there are plenty of archival records from back then showing the same cover, the imaging that Black Sun uses on their covers is traditionally filtered, so I would not stand behind that.

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/author/oleksiykuzmenko/

 

And you go to my point...metadata can be manipulated and disinformation is absolutely out there, it is not as cut and dry as we would like. So I am more than happy to be wrong. In fact, I would love to be. I would love to see some journalism from him showing that he was a journalist while with Azov.

 

I would love to be wrong about the fact that he is standing alongside an individual with glasses in front of the guy that (at least from the photos from 2015, looks exactly like Protasevich), Stanislav Goncharov, who is now in jail on the charges of "inciting hatred against another race", which frankly is a stunning, stunning charge given his ink, but who did a front-page interview on Belsat.TV, (oh, which is a media organization directly funded by YOUR US tax dollars), in which he showed off his lovely tattoos, and justified them saying, "I support the idea of National Socialism...it is the only form of life." And honestly, I would give this guy 100% the benefit of the doubt as a freedom fighter had it not been for the fucking hitler and auschwitz homage tattooed across his fucking back.

 

https://naviny.belsat.eu/ru/news/otstante-ot-tatuirovok-on-priehal-pomogat-dobroe-slovo-pro-terror-mashinu/

 

And I am not reading propaganda here...I am reading directly from the headlines "Get over the tattoos, a word from the Terror Machine" from the publication, Belsat.TV, that our taxpayer dollars fund. The outlet actually often does outstanding work...but they don't apparently have a "Nazi" filter on their code of journalistic conduct, but for the sake of this discussion, I feel their timestamps and image archives are pretty solid.

 

You can auto translate if you would like, but here are the choice photos and translations directly from that US-supported publication back in 2016, which is absolutely consistent with the Azov thread I posted above.

 

So if the Russians manipulated it, they would have had to manipulated half his face back when this article was published back in 2016, 5 years before he was illegally arrested. I took the direct photo image from the US-funded publication...oh, and notice the weapon.

 

Spoiler for NSFW content. And let's put it this way, the "88" tattooed across his chest is something that I am not allowed to send as a German permanent resident, so you can look that up yourself if you don't know it. You can see the imagery on it.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*twins=brothers here. She is clearly gender language meaning "it" for us English speakers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take of this what you will, but my point remains...we fund Nazis. We fund Ukrainian Nazis and we fund Belarusian Nazis. And our media owes us the truth about what we are doing.

 

 

I'll note that is seems you don't have a source for your earlier pics concerning the T-shirt.  Did it also come from russian FB or maybe twitter?  That one looked the most obvious digital alteration IMO.

[Shady Ray 1633]

GW Hayduke, sorry, but I don't really know how to multiquote, so I am going to respond to your points as best I can.

 

Azov is neo-nazi. Our congress has now finally admitted the same. Four years too late, but finally. Ultimately, true thinkers like Ro Khanna, John Conyers etc knew it...but our government continued to strip it out of bills while it was convenient to do so:

 

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis

 

I do not think the media should label him a Nazi. If you look at my prior posts, I simply say that if the media going to tell me all about his life, they should include mentioning the years in which he was imbedded in a nazi-organization. It actually is pretty simple. I am an ardent, ardent anti-fascist, and have become even moreso as I have gotten older. I am repulsed by our funding of Azov, I am repulsed by our enabling of them, and I am repulsed by our media's white-washing of them. And I will speak out against fascism in all forms until the day I die.

 

If you are going to actually come in here and tell me the Azov's linkage to national socialism is tenuous, then I am not quite sure what to do about that. We can agree to disagree. But if that is your position, then I would say that you need to do some research...or listen to the UN...or listen to the EU. Because it is fucking known. The German ambassador literally issued a fucking official communique directed at Azov's celebration of the atrocities committed by SS Galicia four weeks ago, but go ahead. You know the truth.

 

But as I have said, this is much, much more important to discuss on the Ukraine thread, so I will leave it at that and move it over there if you would like to discuss SS Galicia, Azov, war crimes, Ukrainian fascism, etc.

[Shady Ray 1633]

26 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Why is any of that worth noting?  Isn't that all to be expected by a guy on a dictator's shitlist?  

 

Your position seems to be that western media should label this guy a "nazi." Your position is founded on the idea that Azoz is linked to nazis, and the degree of that link is arguable.  Then Protasevich has a relationship with Azoz, and the degree of that relationship is arguable.  Based on these two degrees of relationships, Protasevich is tainted.  That is obvious muddying the waters. Clear as day. Where did you pick up this narrative?  Why are there no sources?

You state Protasevich was "embedded" and "on the ground" with Azoz.  Weren't they fighting the russian's in 2014 and if anyone was covering the fighting they likely covered Azoz?  Is Fergal Keane also tainted with nazi ties?  https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-29086403

 

Come on folks.  Mrs. Whiggins and RomaVicta are intelligent posters here.  You guys have seemingly fallen for a muddying of the waters - a narrative crafted with zero sources and hinges on a weak two degree relationship (Nazi -> Azoz -> Kid).    

I literally linked you the Biletsky's statement confirming he was fighting with Azov (or perhaps, "struggling"...could be either). And while you may not know who Biletsky is, he is the head of Azov who currently heads the political party "The Social National Assembly" in Ukraine...which is fascist. Here it is again...you can simply machine translate the rest it if you need.

 

https://archive.ph/ZDppJ

 

Yes, Roman really, together with Azov and other military units, fought against the occupation of Ukraine. He was with us near Shirokin, where he was wounded. But his weapon as a journalist was not a machine gun, but a word.

And you make my point...Fergal Keane is brilliant..and reported from the front lines. Like actual reporters do. Guess who you can't provide a similar link for? Go on. Show me the journalistic proof. Send me anything resembling such a link for this guy.

 

And THAT is my point. Media should cover such a topic. Yet, they don't.

 

You aren't going to get me to defend Lukashenko or fucking Putin...but unlike you, I understand that there are fascists who we support in Ukraine and I would like to at least it mentioned that he was alongside them. 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

I get it. Your position is that Azoz is full-blown neo-nazi group.  Stir up the bottom sediment a little bit.  

5 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

Azov is neo-nazi.

 

5 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

they should include mentioning the years in which he was imbedded in a nazi-organization.

Come on man. This is all about the question of degree. They are part of the national guard of Ukraine.  They literally kill russians and protect against russian aggression.  Do members within Azoz have ties to white supremacy? Yes.  Have they had funding withheld because the group hasn't regulated their members on that front? Yes.  Does that make them a "neo-nazi group?" No. They are a national militia protecting against the russians with members tied to neo-nazis and have not taken steps to properly regulate.  Our military has white supremacists within their ranks also and our military has been tasked with doing a better job with rooting them out.  

Quote

Despite accusations that the group is anti-Semitic, some members of the Jewish community in Ukraine support and serve in the Azov Battalion. One of its most prominent members is Nathan Khazin, leader of the "Jewish hundreds" during the 2013 Euromaidan protests in Kyiv.[91] Its commander Andriy Biletsky declared that he is not racist or antisemitic. In an interview he explained that he regards Israel and Japan as role models for the development of Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Stir up the bottom sediment a little bit more.  

18 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

If you are going to actually come in here and tell me the Azov's linkage to national socialism is tenuous, then I am not quite sure what to do about that

I'm not telling you it is tenuous.  I'm telling you the degree is arguable. Then, I'm also telling you the degree of relationship between the journalist and Azoz is also arguable.  Then, I'm pointing out to you that your narrative is a pro-dictator muddying the waters narrative with highly questionable sources.  

 

7 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

You aren't going to get me to defend Lukashenko or fucking Putin...but unlike you, I understand that there are fascists who we support in Ukraine and I would like to at least it mentioned that he was alongside them. 

Yes. Muddy the waters until both sides are the same.  

And again, why haven't you provided your source for the T-shirt pics?

[GW Hayduke 1952]

1 hour ago, Shady Ray said:

The picture of him in Azov fatigues was from the linked Vkontakte account (Russian FB), which is locked, but still there. You can see the timestamp from 2015, and, if you have the stomach to fight through the revulsion triggered by modern-era Nazi rallies that your tax dollars paid for, just sift through the hundreds of images showing how many people turned out to support National Socialists in Ukraine in 2015. Let there be no doubt that there is significant Nazi support in Ukraine. MAGA-type chuds galore...it is honestly stunning how similar the physical features/demeanor is.

 

https://vk.com/photo-72444174_368416418

 

The rest was linked through Jake Hanrahan - a verified, real-deal actual "embedded reporter" who received the DuPont award for excellence in journalism out of Columbia U School of Journalism for his work on international hate groups, served jail time in Turkey after being embedded with the Kurds fighting the Turks - who is one of the best reporters on the planet when it comes to guerrilla warfare, on the ground with Ukrainians in Donbas, on the ground in Syria, Gaza, Myanmar etc. And, who, by the way has probably the best podcast out there on disinformation, the bullshit known as Q, weapons trafficking, etc. He ain't gonna toe the line of either side, but he is legit. 

 

 

There are other links relating to his likeness from Bellingcat contributor, Oleskiy Kuzmenko, which to me seem more tenuous for sure. Although the image of the cover of Black Sun has absolutely been verified as coming from that date, as there are plenty of archival records from back then showing the same cover, the imaging that Black Sun uses on their covers is traditionally filtered, so I would not stand behind that.

 

https://www.bellingcat.com/author/oleksiykuzmenko/

 

And you go to my point...metadata can be manipulated and disinformation is absolutely out there, it is not as cut and dry as we would like. So I am more than happy to be wrong. In fact, I would love to be. I would love to see some journalism from him showing that he was a journalist while with Azov.

 

I would love to be wrong about the fact that he is standing alongside an individual with glasses in front of the guy that (at least from the photos from 2015, looks exactly like Protasevich), Stanislav Goncharov, who is now in jail on the charges of "inciting hatred against another race", which frankly is a stunning, stunning charge given his ink, but who did a front-page interview on Belsat.TV, (oh, which is a media organization directly funded by YOUR US tax dollars), in which he showed off his lovely tattoos, and justified them saying, "I support the idea of National Socialism...it is the only form of life." And honestly, I would give this guy 100% the benefit of the doubt as a freedom fighter had it not been for the fucking hitler and auschwitz homage tattooed across his fucking back.

 

https://naviny.belsat.eu/ru/news/otstante-ot-tatuirovok-on-priehal-pomogat-dobroe-slovo-pro-terror-mashinu/

 

And I am not reading propaganda here...I am reading directly from the headlines "Get over the tattoos, a word from the Terror Machine" from the publication, Belsat.TV, that our taxpayer dollars fund. The outlet actually often does outstanding work...but they don't apparently have a "Nazi" filter on their code of journalistic conduct, but for the sake of this discussion, I feel their timestamps and image archives are pretty solid.

 

You can auto translate if you would like, but here are the choice photos and translations directly from that US-supported publication back in 2016, which is absolutely consistent with the Azov thread I posted above.

 

So if the Russians manipulated it, they would have had to manipulated half his face back when this article was published back in 2016, 5 years before he was illegally arrested. I took the direct photo image from the US-funded publication...oh, and notice the weapon.

 

Spoiler for NSFW content. And let's put it this way, the "88" tattooed across his chest is something that I am not allowed to send as a German permanent resident, so you can look that up yourself if you don't know it. You can see the imagery on it.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*twins=brothers here. She is clearly gender language meaning "it" for us English speakers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take of this what you will, but my point remains...we fund Nazis. We fund Ukrainian Nazis and we fund Belarusian Nazis. And our media owes us the truth about what we are doing.

 

 

Also, you had previously stated the soldiers pic was from his own FB feed.  How do you know it was from his own feed? The russian FB link is apparently for a random russian chick named Irina.  I'm not that familiar with how FB operates or how russian FB operates.

 

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

I do not believe the 'both sides' are the same argument is what is going on here. It's a discussion about how tangled some of this gets because the world is not cut and dried (unless it's dead). No one is arguing that the topmost argument is the move by Lukashenko was egregious and deserves the most attention. However, shouldn't we also have a conversation about the undercurrents that are at work here? The disinfo by Russia because of their moves, but also their involvement in funding fascist groups not only in adjacent countries, but fascist groups stateside and secessionist movements as well. They've scrubbed some of it, but one of the leading movements for Texas secession is again, Russian funded.

Perhaps it is my naivete, but as a 'weaker' country, Russia does a way better job in sussing out our weak spots in that regard than we ('oh, it can't happen here') do and I'd like to learn more. It's difficult though, because social media is not only 'sketch' as the teenagers would say, but the language barrier becomes an issue. I have reservations when I read msm accounts and even some of the foreign policy tracts simply due to knowing that the CIA (as Mike Pompeo says), 'lies, cheats, and steals.'

So I appreciate having the discussion even if it can go back and forth.

I mean, we're having a discussion elsewhere on this forum about corruption in the Senate (insider trading), the House (accused human trafficking of minors), and the WH (laundry list of egregious behaviors including perhaps money laundering by the former president). But all of those pale next to an attempted coup/insurrection/sedition in order to overthrow election results and retain power.

 

We had this discussion about Navalny as well. He is going to die in prison because Putin et al see him as a threat. Russia deserves whatever punishment comes their way for that.

[GW Hayduke 1952]

5 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I do not believe the 'both sides' are the same argument is what is going on here. It's a discussion about how tangled some of this gets because the world is not cut and dried (unless it's dead). No one is arguing that the topmost argument is the move by Lukashenko was egregious and deserves the most attention. However, shouldn't we also have a conversation about the undercurrents that are at work here? The disinfo by Russia because of their moves, but also their involvement in funding fascist groups not only in adjacent countries, but fascist groups stateside and secessionist movements as well. They've scrubbed some of it, but one of the leading movements for Texas secession is again, Russian funded.

Perhaps it is my naivete, but as a 'weaker' country, Russia does a way better job in sussing out our weak spots in that regard than we ('oh, it can't happen here') do and I'd like to learn more. It's difficult though, because social media is not only 'sketch' as the teenagers would say, but the language barrier becomes an issue. I have reservations when I read msm accounts and even some of the foreign policy tracts simply due to knowing that the CIA (as Mike Pompeo says), 'lies, cheats, and steals.'

So I appreciate having the discussion even if it can go back and forth.

I mean, we're having a discussion elsewhere on this forum about corruption in the Senate (insider trading), the House (accused human trafficking of minors), and the WH (laundry list of egregious behaviors including perhaps money laundering by the former president). But all of those pale next to an attempted coup/insurrection/sedition in order to overthrow election results and retain power.

 

We had this discussion about Navalny as well. He is going to die in prison because Putin et al see him as a threat. Russia deserves whatever punishment comes their way for that.

I think Lukashenko's press and Shady Ray's narrative is clearly to muddy the waters until we in the west begin to feel both sides are the same.  Shady Ray's primary beef is that western press doesn't label the journalist as a fascist. His whole two degree relationship narrative is intended to establish the kid is a fascist.***    If we feel he is just another fascist, then why should we care if he is improperly imprisoned?  Which sounds better, imprisoning a dissenter/journalist or imprisoning just another fascist?  

The language barrier combined with potentially seedy social media sources does cause confusion as you mention.  IMO when an entire narrative is composed of potentially seedy social media sources sprinkled in with some unsourced odd claims (like the journalist never published pics that showed Azoz as negative) along with unsourced irrelevant claims (like the journalist worked for a group that received US funding), major red flags go up for me.

*** of critical importance IMO is that none of his evidence is that this guy did any fascist type actions or has every expressed any fascist type speech.  There is no evidence that this guy promoted ideals that the jews should be slaughtered, that whites are superior, or any sort of actual real hate speech.  Nothing is directly tied to the journalist. All the evidence is about his supposed "links to" or "ties with" others.  

[RomaVicta 29793]

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Come on folks.  Mrs. Whiggins and RomaVicta are intelligent posters here.  You guys have seemingly fallen for a muddying of the waters - a narrative crafted with zero sources and hinges on a weak two degree relationship (Nazi -> Azoz -> Kid).    

Thanks for compliment, GW. I perceive the same about you. 

I don't feel like I see the waters as having been muddied. I have not changed my stance on action against Lukashenko and Belarus because of the broader discussion of Protasevich. Shady's position on news coverage resonates with me. Idiot World is only dimly lit by TV news outlets.

We have fallen into what I mention earlier and you state here; we find ourselves arguing about the purity of a man who has become a symbol. I'll take Shady at his word that he doesn't believe the purity of Protasevich should matter to Western response to the act of piracy ordered by the outlaw leader of an outlaw state.

I wonder if you felt the same qualm I did when Shady first posted. I thought, maybe it's best not to mention this because it will confuse the hoopleheads. Maybe we should stay silent about this alleged part of the captive's history.

But that would become a self-propagating cycle of hiding facts and, in effect, endorsing deceit. Information must flow freely (I know you're not proposing any restraint/constraint on the press) and we just have to take our chances with public opinion, willful distortions by bad actors, and political posturing from our leaders. It's part of the mess we create as an alternative to authoritarian rule.

Shady's post did start a discussion that could muddy the water for many. I see no reason to conclude that was his intent. If it was, it's a very subtle manipulation that dares to include a very pointed condemnation of those whom would be protected by such a deceitful stratagem.

I do think your points and those of WW 965 are worthwhile. I don't conclude what y'all do, but I respect the position.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Woah, where are we going with this? We’ve got so much stuff floating around out there that you can’t begin to shoot it down.
 

 Why are we posting photos of someone who isn’t Prasatevich and who admits he’s a Nazi as if it’s relevant? Because he might have been in a photo with Prasatevich?

U.S.- taxpayer funded Nazi rallies in the streets of Mariupol? Sorry, gonna need some receipts, there’s a lot of dotted lines that haven’t even begun to be connected. 

I don’t know what’s going on here specifically but what I can say is this— the narrative across this thread a almost a template of what well-established Kremlin backed actors push across Central and Eastern Europe in languages I actually do speak and read, in outlets I follow. 

[Shady Ray 1633]

33 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

I get it. Your position is that Azoz is full-blown neo-nazi group.  Stir up the bottom sediment a little bit.  

 

Come on man. This is all about the question of degree. They are part of the national guard of Ukraine.  They literally kill russians and protect against russian aggression.  Do members within Azoz have ties to white supremacy? Yes.  Have they had funding withheld because the group hasn't regulated their members on that front? Yes.  Does that make them a "neo-nazi group?" No. They are a national militia protecting against the russians with members tied to neo-nazis and have not taken steps to properly regulate.  Our military has white supremacists within their ranks also and our military has been tasked with doing a better job with rooting them out.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Stir up the bottom sediment a little bit more.  

I'm not telling you it is tenuous.  I'm telling you the degree is arguable. Then, I'm also telling you the degree of relationship between the journalist and Azoz is also arguable.  Then, I'm pointing out to you that your narrative is a pro-dictator muddying the waters narrative with highly questionable sources.  

 

Yes. Muddy the waters until both sides are the same.  

And again, why haven't you provided your source for the T-shirt pics?

Yes, I do view them as a full-blown Neo-Nazi group. And, no, I am not trying to stir up sediment. And no, Azov's affiliation/wholesale embrace/acceptance/proliferation of nazi ideology is not arguable. It is factual. And it is only your apparent binary view of the world of Russia vs. USA that allows you to consider anything to the contrary.

 

What do you need beyond the Wolfsangel and annual SS glorification? Do you need the UN to condemn them as Extreme Right? Do you need the ADL to do so? How about members of the EU Parliament? How about the Simon Wiesenthal Center? Am I leaving any out? Or is it still arguable? Are going to just say "Neo-nazi" affiliated isn't the same as actual "Neo-Nazis"? OK, we can agree to disagree.

 

Perhaps Andriy Biletsky, the head of Azov's military and political wings, who I quoted earlier supporting Roman Protasevich's claim of being a journalist with no work-product, was just confused as to Fascism when he said ON THE FUCKING RECORD: "It is the Ukrainian nation's mission to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade against semite-led untermenschen". 

 

Oh, I guess because he publicly made the statement 2010, it was worthwhile to continue to fund and arm him for four years after Minsk was signed and defend his unit's Neo-Nazism as "arguable".

Here is Bellingcat on this group of "arguable" Nazis:

 

Quote

 

The “Hardcore” Russian Neo-Nazi Group That Calls Ukraine Home
September 4, 2019
Azov
Christchurch
Translations: Русский
Written by Michael Colborne with contributions from Oleksiy Kuzmenko

They’re devoted to a brand of neo-Nazism so blatant, including openly glorifying Hitler, that even its leader admits is too “hardcore” for the public space. 

Wotanjugend, which its founder described in 2016 as an online “mini-university for supporters of right-wing ideology,” has praised far-right terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and Anders Breivik as “heroes.” Their website shares Russian-language translations and articles; offline they organize neo-Nazi concerts, host classes on “racial theory,” give firearms training sessions and even put on private concerts with a very subtle clues of neo-Nazism, such as a framed picture of Adolf Hitler flanked by swastikas on a candlelit altar.

The altar with a photo of Adolf Hitler and a Nazi flag at Wotanjugend’s “Fuhrernight” in May 2019

More recently they have become, like much of the global far-right, dedicated fans of the perpetrator of the March terrorist attacks on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand. In a post after the attacks, Wotanjugend called the shooter a “vengeful Viking who has definitely earned his place in Valhalla.” 

But, as we reported in our previous investigation, Wotanjugend also promoted a Russian-language translation of the Christchurch shooter’s manifesto that got more than 25,000 views. However, they quietly removed it from their website after our investigation named them as promoters of the manifesto — and after Ukraine’s ambassador to New Zealand, in response to our investigation and subsequent comments from New Zealand’s Prime Minister, pledged that Ukraine would prosecute anyone distributing the manifesto. But Wotanjugend has not removed a separate post praising the shooter, nor have they removed the disturbing livestreamed video of the attacks that they had shared.

A Wotanjugend sticker reading “Blood, Fatherland, Faith” in Russian.

Wotanjugend was born in Russia, and publishes its online content almost exclusively in Russian. Today the self-described “hammer of National Socialism” is based in Ukraine and, for all intents and purposes, is part of the country’s far-right Azov movement that is trying to expand its domestic and international influence.

But Wotanjugend’s activities aren’t just limited to the web. In 2018 the head of Wotanjugend met with members of violent American neo-Nazi gang Rise Above Movement (RAM) in Kyiv. Wotanjugend also recently hosted a seminar that included lectures on race, firearms training and even a mock knife fight tournament. Moreover, the head of the group, Alexei Levkin, is hopeful he will receive Ukrainian citizenship, and has been a key figure in Azov’s public push to get Ukrainian citizenship for far-right friends from abroad who have joined their ranks.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/09/04/the-hardcore-russian-neo-nazi-group-that-calls-ukraine-home/

 

Believe me, I can go on and on proving this groups filth. And it is not arguable.

 

With respect to your question regarding the selfie and his FB page, you raise a very good point that I will admit that I took for granted. I have seen posts on this on various sites, including journos that I very much trust, but I admit that is something that I may have overlooked. I absolutely stand by the link to the V-Kontakte page. It is absolutely consistent with the other images published in the Belsat article that I linked to, and I am not going to discount it simply because it is VKontakte. But I definitely need to look into the selfie. Sincere appreciation for pointing that out.

 

That doesn't change the fact that his own father in 2020, his commander yesterday, and other comrades acknowledge his affiliation with Azov...regardless of whether that was fighting or a non-publishing journalist - and in my opinion, his affiliation with them is news. I cite once again to one of the highest rated think-tanks on the area, Jamestown...https://jamestown.org/program/belarus-stages-what-it-sees-as-major-security-operations/

 

Again - and I know I am like a broken record - but I am not defending Lukashenko or Putin. In fact, I would love for them to be toppled. And my point goes much more to our support of Azov than it does demanding the fair treatment and release of this kid. And I have gone out of my way to reiterate that. I am very, very, adamant about the Ukraine issue personally. I am very concerned about it and I see it as a situation where the US is blindly sleepwalking into a conflict that will have profound, profound implications on the place where I live. And unfortunately, for myself, as a resident of Europe, if the US decides to shit-fart its way into yet another armed conflict like it has continually done in Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc., it isn't going to be an "oops, my bad" for me like it is for a bunch of know-nothings who rely on a deficient and pathetic media to provide our continual support for war.

 

But my initial gripe is exactly as @Mrs Whiggins stated above...this is not about whataboutism...this is about bringing attention to very, very complicated issues that are not nearly as cut-and-dry as they are made out to be, and they are issues that should be covered. I have legitimate and severe concerns about steps the US is taking in Ukraine...both from a transatlantic alliance position and that of an American.  And as long as we sit there and say that Azov's extremism is "arguable", and allow for their funding - whether direct or indirect, and not listen to what they themselves claim to be, we are running the risk of waltzing into very terrible situations because the topic of Russia has become hyper-politicized in the US.

 

Now, I have spent far too much time on this debate for today (albeit an enjoyable one), and I have a nice new bottle of Lagavulin 16 waiting on me which I am going to break into on the back porch, but I will check back in early tomorrow and respond when I can.

[GW Hayduke 1952]

4 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

What do you need beyond the Wolfsangel and annual SS glorification? Do you need the UN to condemn them as Extreme Right? Do you need the ADL to do so? How about members of the EU Parliament? How about the Simon Wiesenthal Center? Am I leaving any out? Or is it still arguable? Are going to just say "Neo-nazi" affiliated isn't the same as actual "Neo-Nazis"? OK, we can agree to disagree.

The good news is that you are finally providing sources. The bad news is they either don't say what you think they say or they don't add anything new that wasn't already captured on their wiki page I shared earlier.  IMO this is legit muddying up the waters. 

It isn't clear how your first source, the UN report on human rights issues, is documenting that the "UN is condemning" Azov as "extreme right."  The group is mentioned 4 times in passing, zero times in the executive summary, and zero times in the conclusions and recommendations.  They clearly make zero conclusions about that group and at no time did the UN "condemn as extreme right."    

Your second source from the ADL does disclose Azov has members who are white supremacists and labels them as a "a Ukrainian extremist group and militia." That is also all disclosed in the wiki entry I provided earlier.  

Your third source is a question asked by a czech politician and member of the communist party and has zero relevance to anything.  

Your forth source doesn't add anything new.  We've already established that there are white supremacists in their ranks and that should do a better job of regulating that in their group - it is the same issue noted as why the US paused funding to the group.

 

38 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

Perhaps Andriy Biletsky, the head of Azov's military and political wings, who I quoted earlier supporting Roman Protasevich's claim of being a journalist with no work-product, was just confused as to Fascism when he said ON THE FUCKING RECORD: "It is the Ukrainian nation's mission to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade against semite-led untermenschen". 

That isn't a quote from the subject journalist.  That is a quote from a ukrainian politician that was once part of Azov. It is established that there are white supremacists in Ukraine.  We've established there are some in Azov. There are some in Ukrainian military.  So what?  

 

41 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

Oh, I guess because he publicly made the statement 2010, it was worthwhile to continue to fund and arm him for four years after Minsk was signed and defend his unit's Neo-Nazism as "arguable".

Are you still talking about a random ukranian politician and not the subject journalist?  What do you think this establishes that hasn't been established long ago?

45 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

Here is Bellingcat on this group of "arguable" Nazis:

That is another piece about a single person in Azov.  That isn't new.

 

47 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

With respect to your question regarding the selfie and his FB page, you raise a very good point that I will admit that I took for granted. I have seen posts on this on various sites, including journos that I very much trust, but I admit that is something that I may have overlooked. I absolutely stand by the link to the V-Kontakte page. It is absolutely consistent with the other images published in the Belsat article that I linked to, and I am not going to discount it simply because it is VKontakte. But I definitely need to look into the selfie. Sincere appreciation for pointing that out.

Thanks for being straight forward about the t-shirt pic.  The reason that is of issue is because that piece of evidence is the only real direct link between the journalist and any sort of actual real fascist type thought or action. Everything else you have presented is just second degree ties of arguable strength. 

 

50 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

That doesn't change the fact that his own father in 2020, his commander yesterday, and other comrades acknowledge his affiliation with Azov...regardless of whether that was fighting or a non-publishing journalist - and in my opinion, his affiliation with them is news. I cite once again to one of the highest rated think-tanks on the area, Jamestown...https://jamestown.org/program/belarus-stages-what-it-sees-as-major-security-operations/

None of that is news or in dispute.  Should I link the BBC article again.  We are all on the same page with everything you have provided.  Nothing is new or surprising to the conversation.  It all seems to be about muddying up the waters.  

57 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

And my point goes much more to our support of Azov than it does demanding the fair treatment and release of this kid.

The situation isn't about Azov - except for those attempting to tie the imprisoned journalist down as a fascist - i.e., muddy the waters so people's hearts might feel both sides are same.  Literally no else gives a shit about Azov at this moment. 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Thanks for compliment, GW. I perceive the same about you. 

I don't feel like I see the waters as having been muddied. I have not changed my stance on action against Lukashenko and Belarus because of the broader discussion of Protasevich. Shady's position on news coverage resonates with me. Idiot World is only dimly lit by TV news outlets.

We have fallen into what I mention earlier and you state here; we find ourselves arguing about the purity of a man who has become a symbol. I'll take Shady at his word that he doesn't believe the purity of Protasevich should matter to Western response to the act of piracy ordered by the outlaw leader of an outlaw state.

I wonder if you felt the same qualm I did when Shady first posted. I thought, maybe it's best not to mention this because it will confuse the hoopleheads. Maybe we should stay silent about this alleged part of the captive's history.

But that would become a self-propagating cycle of hiding facts and, in effect, endorsing deceit. Information must flow freely (I know you're not proposing any restraint/constraint on the press) and we just have to take our chances with public opinion, willful distortions by bad actors, and political posturing from our leaders. It's part of the mess we create as an alternative to authoritarian rule.

Shady's post did start a discussion that could muddy the water for many. I see no reason to conclude that was his intent. If it was, it's a very subtle manipulation that dares to include a very pointed condemnation of those whom would be protected by such a deceitful stratagem.

I do think your points and those of WW 965 are worthwhile. I don't conclude what y'all do, but I respect the position.

The thing is, it hasn’t been covered up or silenced by the Western press. It’s been clearly covered, in this Yahoo article that google returned.

https://news.yahoo.com/26-belarus-journalist-spent-decade-064317185.html

Quote

As a journalism student, he worked for the Belarusian service of the U.S.-funded broadcaster Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and other outlets.

Pratasevich joined the protests in neighboring Ukraine in 2014 that ousted its Moscow-leaning president, sustaining an injury in a clash with police. He was wounded again the next year during fighting between Ukrainian forces and Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine.

Lukashenko and other Belarusian officials alleged Pratasevich fought as a “mercenary” in eastern Ukraine, but Andriy Biletskiy, who led the Azov volunteer battalion in the region, insisted Pratasevich was working as a journalist there.

And that is standard journalism— outline the claim, then interview sources and report what you know. What real journalists don’t do is run photos from suspect sources through “facial recognition” software and then report them as “.70 percent confidence” (which isn’t really how those programs work). They don’t just “ask questions”, especially on something as important as this. And they sure don’t turn the issue at hand into a debate over what happened in Donbas in 2014. 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

 

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Thanks for compliment, GW. I perceive the same about you. 

I don't feel like I see the waters as having been muddied. I have not changed my stance on action against Lukashenko and Belarus because of the broader discussion of Protasevich. Shady's position on news coverage resonates with me. Idiot World is only dimly lit by TV news outlets.

We have fallen into what I mention earlier and you state here; we find ourselves arguing about the purity of a man who has become a symbol. I'll take Shady at his word that he doesn't believe the purity of Protasevich should matter to Western response to the act of piracy ordered by the outlaw leader of an outlaw state.

I wonder if you felt the same qualm I did when Shady first posted. I thought, maybe it's best not to mention this because it will confuse the hoopleheads. Maybe we should stay silent about this alleged part of the captive's history.

But that would become a self-propagating cycle of hiding facts and, in effect, endorsing deceit. Information must flow freely (I know you're not proposing any restraint/constraint on the press) and we just have to take our chances with public opinion, willful distortions by bad actors, and political posturing from our leaders. It's part of the mess we create as an alternative to authoritarian rule.

Shady's post did start a discussion that could muddy the water for many. I see no reason to conclude that was his intent. If it was, it's a very subtle manipulation that dares to include a very pointed condemnation of those whom would be protected by such a deceitful stratagem.

I do think your points and those of WW 965 are worthwhile. I don't conclude what y'all do, but I respect the position.

I get that we should all be weary of news sources, coverage, and narratives, but I just want to note that the BBC article I've provided a couple times was straight forward in disclosing the situation between the journalist and Azov.  IMO since the BBC doesn't seem to feel the guy is a fascist or was ever part of a fascist group, they just cover it from the angle of how pro-Lukashenko press was covering.  From what I've seen throughout this thread, there is no evidence this guy should be labeled as a "fascist" or "neo-nazi," and thus his very loose ties to a group that has some limited ties to fascism is largely irrelevant to the immediate incident.    

Quote

Belarusian authorities have muddied the waters over the detention of Mr Protasevich and how the Ryanair flight was forced to land.

Aside from a new air traffic control transcript that contradicts the version of events given by Belarusian state TV, the pro-Lukashenko press has portrayed the dissident journalist as an extremist with right-wing sympathies.

Belarus Segodnya, a newspaper published by the presidential administration, has claimed that Mr Protasevich was a mercenary who fought in eastern Ukraine with the nationalist Azov Battalion, which has been accused of neo-Nazi links.

Mr Protasevich confirmed in an interview last year that he had spent a year in the conflict-hit Donbas region and was wounded, but said he was covering the conflict as a journalist and photographer.

A former commander of the Azov unit has backed Mr Protasevich's version of events, confirming that he spent time with them as a journalist and was wounded.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57239521

[Nivek 16860]

Jack Colton : Who told you that? Who told you this bus was going to Cartagena?
Joan Wilder : That man...
Jack Colton : That nice man who pulled a gun on you? What else did he tell you?

[RomaVicta 29793]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The thing is, it hasn’t been covered up or silenced by the Western press. It’s been clearly covered, in this Yahoo article that google returned.

I don't think that I claim anything has been covered up.

The BBC article was great. Thanks for linking enough times for me to get off my lazy ass and read it.

From GW Hayduke:

Quote

I get that we should all be weary of news sources, coverage, and narratives, but I just want to note that the BBC article I've provided a couple times was straight forward in disclosing the situation between the journalist and Azov.  IMO since the BBC doesn't seem to feel the guy is a fascist or was ever part of a fascist group, they just cover it from the angle of how pro-Lukashenko press was covering.  From what I've seen throughout this thread, there is no evidence this guy should be labeled as a "fascist" or "neo-nazi," and thus his very loose ties to a group that has some limited ties to fascism is largely irrelevant to the immediate incident.  

I'm not sure how much this post intends to describe my position. You may speaking generally, but I'll be clear.

I don't have an opinion about Protasevich's alleged involvement with the Azov Battalion. The discussion is interesting but not critical to my opinion about the situation with Belarus and Russia.

I also don't have a solidly formed opinion about Shady Ray. I'm neither an entrenched defender nor a prosecutor of this person. I did learn from what he posted. I'm interested in how you and WW are engaging him, but I'm a little surprised at the seeming hostility. Perhaps I'm being naive. If he's a propagandist, he's a remarkably deft one in hiding his intentions.

Oddly, if his intent was to focus the debate on the color of Protasevich's hat, he seems to have succeeded with y'all. I'm not being dismissive. Your queries about sources and intentions are smart. 

The issues at the moment in this debate go to Shady's intentions and the true leanings of Protasevich. How either resolves does not really impact my opinion on the larger issue as stated in my first post.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28712]

7 hours ago, Shady Ray said:

GW Hayduke, sorry, but I don't really know how to multiquote

See that little plus sign in the bottom left corner of every post?

[GW Hayduke 1952]

22 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I don't think that I claim anything has been covered up.

The BBC article was great. Thanks for linking enough times for me to get off my lazy ass and read it.

From GW Hayduke:

I'm not sure how much this post intends to describe my position. You may speaking generally, but I'll be clear.

I don't have an opinion about Protasevich's alleged involvement with the Azov Battalion. The discussion is interesting but not critical to my opinion about the situation with Belarus and Russia.

I also don't have a solidly formed opinion about Shady Ray. I'm neither an entrenched defender nor a prosecutor of this person. I did learn from what he posted. I'm interested in how you and WW are engaging him, but I'm a little surprised at the seeming hostility. Perhaps I'm being naive. If he's a propagandist, he's a remarkably deft one in hiding his intentions.

Oddly, if his intent was to focus the debate on the color of Protasevich's hat, he seems to have succeeded with y'all. I'm not being dismissive. Your queries about sources and intentions are smart. 

The issues at the moment in this debate go to Shady's intentions and the true leanings of Protasevich. How either resolves does not really impact my opinion on the larger issue as stated in my first post.

 

You had indicated that Shady's take on news coverage resonated with you. I was pointing out western journalism was addressing the alleged unsavory aspects of the journalist and why I believed they covered it the way they did in that piece. 

I apologize for any hostility to anyone including Shady.  Ideally any hostility would have been toward positions and sources of information, but I'm sure I was personal at some point.

I doubt it would add value to label anyone a propagandist.  I'm more interested in where he got some of his information and how he formed some of his opinions.  

Initially, I saw a flood of unsupported facts weaved into a narrative that seemed to generally fit something that could be considered pro-russian. As I read it all in some detail, it became clear that a lot of the information he was presenting wasn't too relevant or surprising.  A lot of it was about the journalist having ties to the west, that he was involved in protecting Ukraine from the Russians, and that there is a ukrainian militia with an inappropriate number of supremacists.  I think the more controversial stuff was with linking the journalist to fascism. 

I was a bit uncomfortable not knowing where much of his information was coming from.  Some of his initially stated sources didn't really turn out. Rather than the soldiers pic coming from the journalist's own FB feed, it came from a random russian woman on russia's versions of FB. The UN report didn't say what he said it said.  Not really that big a deal IMO and mostly harmless.

He also dropped the doctored picture of the journalist in a nazi shirt, which was kind of a big deal.  At this point I'm assuming it was doctored and the product of a propagandist. He wouldn't tell me where he got it. I couldn't find it by searching google.  The shirt pic was critical because it was the only actual real tie between the journalist and fascism.   

[Shady Ray 1633]

47 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I don't think that I claim anything has been covered up.

The BBC article was great. Thanks for linking enough times for me to get off my lazy ass and read it.

From GW Hayduke:

I'm not sure how much this post intends to describe my position. You may speaking generally, but I'll be clear.

I don't have an opinion about Protasevich's alleged involvement with the Azov Battalion. The discussion is interesting but not critical to my opinion about the situation with Belarus and Russia.

I also don't have a solidly formed opinion about Shady Ray. I'm neither an entrenched defender nor a prosecutor of this person. I did learn from what he posted. I'm interested in how you and WW are engaging him, but I'm a little surprised at the seeming hostility. Perhaps I'm being naive. If he's a propagandist, he's a remarkably deft one in hiding his intentions.

Oddly, if his intent was to focus the debate on the color of Protasevich's hat, he seems to have succeeded with y'all. I'm not being dismissive. Your queries about sources and intentions are smart. 

The issues at the moment in this debate go to Shady's intentions and the true leanings of Protasevich. How either resolves does not really impact my opinion on the larger issue as stated in my first post.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to the situation needn't being overshadowed with Belarus and Russia. Unfortunately, in retrospect, my posts detracted from that, and to be honest, in the time since I have posted about it I have actually felt quite bad about it. To the degree that I wanted to hop back on and acknowledge it. It truly is irrelevant what his attachment to Azov was, and I genuinely do not want to come across as someone who linked the criminal treatment of him by Lukashenko to his past connections. In my mind I wasn't doing that, and while I know that I stated that multiple times in my threads, in retrospect it definitely came across that way. While I do link all of these things together in my mind as part of the continuing Russia/West tensions, it was not the place to do so here.

 

Now, for background as to why I often get involved with the Ukraine-Russia topic, (and have for years, going back to TOS) my honest position is that I am very concerned on this particular conflict. I know it well. I deal with it to some degree professionally and I have had many discussions as of late on it within my profession (government relations attorney) on the topic of "things here in Europe are not trending in the right direction".  We are heading for a major realignment geopolitically, IMO, and I pray we get there with as minimal pain as possible. As I have posted in other threads, it is precisely something like this Ukraine-Russia tension that start big wars, as they are both unreliable in their own ways, and in my opinion, in the current environment it is a powder keg waiting to happen. And if you are like me, sometimes you feel like the only thing that you can do in this world is to type shit out, as insignificant as it is, to the few places where you think someone will listen. It is silly, but it is human. And I am in a period of frustration on this subject and to be very honest, this board is about the only place in my life where I can do that freely.

 

In my mind, this Russia/Belarus/Ukraine trifecta of disaster has the potential to rupture the transatlantic alliance like no other, and I think that is an inevitability unless the powers of Europe, the US and Russia come to some type of arrangement on it. I see things like what happened in Ukraine last month, and this hijacking, all as part of the positioning here and it is not a simple situation. There is absolutely no military solution here and playing games with guns here is going to be disastrous. In my opinion, mistakes made here could easily have consequences for the world far, far more devastating than Iraq did and I feel that the US leadership is deliberately down-playing the degree in which Ukraine is crumbling under the current leadership and under the weight of vigilante lawlessness that is all over the country. There are a variety of reasons for that, none of them good.

 

As is clear from my posts, I despise Azov with a passion. While perhaps they played a justified role at the outset, they are a boil that should have been lanced long ago and now they have only increased their influence. I have watched as they have become increasingly oppressive in Ukrainian life, actively recruiting Neo-Nazis from across Europe, re-injecting a very dangerous ideology into a continent that quite frankly, isn't immune to such things taking hold. I think they need to be reigned in and I think our leadership is in a position to greatly influence just that. But I fear that our pathetic politicians won't. I do not see them as something that American taxpayers should be funding, or justifying; I do not see them as harmless, and I do not see them as insignificant. I see them as the latest iteration of US-funded fascism/extremism and I believe that our approach to the Ukrainian situation is foolish and will not end well. But that is for another time.

 

But, to illustrate my point re Azov, this article in The Nation is - in my opinion - is the best summary of what is actually going on over there. It is highly sourced, verified and accurate. It is two years old, but nothing has changed for the better.

So that said, again, apologies for being seen as muddying the waters.

 

Quote

 

Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine

Five years after the Maidan uprising, anti-Semitism and fascist-inflected ultranationalism are rampant.

By Lev Golinkin

FEBRUARY 22, 2019

 

Five years ago, Ukraine’s Maidan uprising ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, to the cheers and support of the West. Politicians and analysts in the United States and Europe not only celebrated the uprising as a triumph of democracy, but deniedreports of Maidan’s ultranationalism, smearing those who warned about the dark side of the uprising as Moscow puppets and useful idiots. Freedom was on the march in Ukraine.

Today, increasing reports of far-right violence, ultranationalism, and erosion of basic freedoms are giving the lie to the West’s initial euphoria. There are neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators.

These stories of Ukraine’s dark nationalism aren’t coming out of Moscow; they’re being filed by Western media, including US-funded Radio Free Europe (RFE); Jewish organizations such as the World Jewish Congressand the Simon Wiesenthal Center; and watchdogs like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and Freedom House, which issued a joint report warning that Kiev is losing the monopoly on the use of force in the country as far-right gangs operate with impunity.

Five years after Maidan, the beacon of democracy is looking more like a torchlight march.

A NEO-NAZI BATTALION IN THE HEART OF EUROPE

“Volunteer Ukrainian Unit Includes Nazis.”—USA Today, March 10, 2015 

The DC establishment’s standard defense of Kiev is to point out that Ukraine’s far right has a smaller percentage of seats in the parliament than their counterparts in places like France. That’s a spurious argument: What Ukraine’s far right lacks in polls numbers, it makes up for with things Marine Le Pen could only dream of—paramilitary units and free rein on the streets.

Post-Maidan Ukraine is the world’s only nation to have a neo-Nazi formation in its armed forces. The Azov Battalion was initially formed out of the neo-Nazi gang Patriot of Ukraine. Andriy Biletsky, the gang’s leader who became Azov’s commander, once wrote that Ukraine’s mission is to “lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade…against the Semite-led Untermenschen.” Biletsky is now a deputy in Ukraine’s parliament.

 

In the fall of 2014, Azov—which is accused of human-rights abuses, including torture, by Human Rights Watch and the United Nations—was incorporated into Ukraine’s National Guard.

While the group officially denies any neo-Nazi connections, Azov’s nature has been confirmed by multiple Western outlets: The New York Times called the battalion “openly neo-Nazi,” while USA Today, The Daily Beast, The Telegraph, and Haaretz documentedgroup members’ proclivity for swastikas, salutes, and other Nazi symbols, and individual fighters have also acknowledged being neo-Nazis.

In January 2018, Azov rolled out its National Druzhina street patrol unit whose members swore personal fealty to Biletsky and pledged to “restore Ukrainian order” to the streets. The Druzhina quickly distinguished itself by carrying out pogroms against the Roma and LGBTorganizations and storming a municipal council. Earlier this year, Kiev announced the neo-Nazi unit will be monitoring polls in next month’s presidential election.

In 2017, Congressman Ro Khanna led the effort to ban Azov from receiving U.S. arms and training. But the damage has already been done: The research group Bellingcat proved that Azov had already received access to American grenade launchers, while a Daily Beast investigation showed that US trainers are unable to prevent aid from reaching white supremacists. And Azov itself had proudly posted a video of the unit welcoming NATO representatives.

 

(Azov isn’t the only far-right formation to get Western affirmation. In December 2014, Amnesty International accused the Dnipro-1 battalion of potential war crimes, including “using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare.” Six months later, Senator John McCain visited and praised the battalion.)

Particularly concerning is Azov’s campaign to transform Ukraine into a hub for transnational white supremacy. The unit has recruited neo-Nazis from Germany, the UK, Brazil, Sweden, and America; last October, the FBI arrested four California white supremacists who had allegedly received training from Azov. This is a classic example of blowback: US support of radicals abroad ricocheting to hit America.

 

FAR RIGHT TIES TO GOVERNMENT

“Ukrainian police declare admiration for Nazi collaborators”—RFE, February 13, 2019

Speaker of Parliament Andriy Parubiy cofounded and led two neo-Nazi organizations: the Social-National Party of Ukraine (later renamed Svoboda), and Patriot of Ukraine, whose members would eventually form the core of Azov.

Although Parubiy left the far right in the early 2000’s, he hasn’t rejected his past. When asked about it in a 2016 interview, Parubiy replied that his “values” haven’t changed. Parubiy, whose autobiographyshows him marching with the neo-Nazi wolfsangel symbol used by Aryan Nations, regularly meets with Washington think tanks and politicians; his neo-Nazi background is ignored or outright denied.

Even more disturbing is the far right’s penetration of law enforcement. Shortly after Maidan, the US equipped and trained the newly founded National Police, in what was intended to be a hallmark program buttressing Ukrainian democracy.

The deputy minister of the Interior—which controls the National Police—is Vadim Troyan, a veteran of Azov and Patriot of Ukraine. In 2014, when Troyan was being considered for police chief of Kiev, Ukrainian Jewish leaders were appalled by his neo-Nazi background. Today, he’s deputy of the department running US-trained law enforcement in the entire nation.

Earlier this month, RFE reported on National Police leadership admiring Stepan Bandera—a Nazi collaborator and Fascist whose troops participated in the Holocaust—on social media.

The fact that Ukraine’s police is peppered with far-right supporters explains why neo-Nazis operate with impunity on the streets.

 

(Azov isn’t the only far-right formation to get Western affirmation. In December 2014, Amnesty International accused the Dnipro-1 battalion of potential war crimes, including “using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare.” Six months later, Senator John McCain visited and praised the battalion.)

Particularly concerning is Azov’s campaign to transform Ukraine into a hub for transnational white supremacy. The unit has recruited neo-Nazis from Germany, the UK, Brazil, Sweden, and America; last October, the FBI arrested four California white supremacists who had allegedly received training from Azov. This is a classic example of blowback: US support of radicals abroad ricocheting to hit America.

 

FAR RIGHT TIES TO GOVERNMENT

“Ukrainian police declare admiration for Nazi collaborators”—RFE, February 13, 2019

Speaker of Parliament Andriy Parubiy cofounded and led two neo-Nazi organizations: the Social-National Party of Ukraine (later renamed Svoboda), and Patriot of Ukraine, whose members would eventually form the core of Azov.

Although Parubiy left the far right in the early 2000’s, he hasn’t rejected his past. When asked about it in a 2016 interview, Parubiy replied that his “values” haven’t changed. Parubiy, whose autobiographyshows him marching with the neo-Nazi wolfsangel symbol used by Aryan Nations, regularly meets with Washington think tanks and politicians; his neo-Nazi background is ignored or outright denied.

Even more disturbing is the far right’s penetration of law enforcement. Shortly after Maidan, the US equipped and trained the newly founded National Police, in what was intended to be a hallmark program buttressing Ukrainian democracy.

The deputy minister of the Interior—which controls the National Police—is Vadim Troyan, a veteran of Azov and Patriot of Ukraine. In 2014, when Troyan was being considered for police chief of Kiev, Ukrainian Jewish leaders were appalled by his neo-Nazi background. Today, he’s deputy of the department running US-trained law enforcement in the entire nation.

Earlier this month, RFE reported on National Police leadership admiring Stepan Bandera—a Nazi collaborator and Fascist whose troops participated in the Holocaust—on social media.

The fact that Ukraine’s police is peppered with far-right supporters explains why neo-Nazis operate with impunity on the streets.

 

STATE-SPONSORED GLORIFICATION OF NAZI COLLABORATORS

“Ukrainian extremists celebrate Ukrainian Nazi SS divisions…in the middle of a major Ukrainian city”—Anti-Defamation League Director of European Affairs, April 28, 2018

It’s not just the military and street gangs: Ukraine’s far right has successfully hijacked the post-Maidan government to impose an intolerant and ultranationalist culture over the land.

In 2015, the Ukrainian parliament passed legislation making two WWII paramilitaries—the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)—heroes of Ukraine, and made it a criminal offense to deny their heroism. The OUN had collaborated with the Nazis and participated in the Holocaust, while the UPA slaughtered thousands of Jews and 70,000-100,000 Poles on their own volition.

The government-funded Ukrainian Institute of National Memory is institutionalizing the whitewashing of Nazi collaborators. Last summer, the Ukrainian parliament featured an exhibit commemorating the OUN’s 1941 proclamation of cooperation with the Third Reich (imagine the French government installing an exhibit celebrating the Vichy state!).

Torchlight marches in honor of OUN/UPA leaders like Roman Shukhevych(a commander in a Third Reich auxiliary battalion) are a regular feature of the new Ukraine. The recuperation even extends to SS Galichina, a Ukrainian division of the Waffen-SS; the director of the Institute of National Memory proclaimed that the SS fighters were “war victims.” The government’s embrace of Bandera is not only deplorable, but also extremely divisive, considering the OUN/UPA are reviled in eastern Ukraine.

Predictably, the celebration of Nazi collaborators has accompanied a rise in outright anti-Semitism.

“Jews Out!” chanted thousands during a January 2017 march honoring OUN leader Bandera. (The next day the police denied hearing anything anti-Semitic.) That summer, a three-day festival celebrating the Nazi collaborator Shukhevych capped off with the firebombing of a synagogue. In November 2017, RFE reported Nazi salutes as 20,000 marched in honor of the UPA. And last April, hundreds marched in L’viv with coordinated Nazi salutes honoring SS Galichina; the march was promoted by the L’viv regional government.

The Holocaust revisionism is a multi-pronged effort, ranging from government-funded seminars, brochures, and board games, to the proliferation of plaques, statues, and streets renamed after butchers of Jews, to far-right children camps, where youth are inculcated with ultranationalist ideology.

Within several years, an entire generation will be indoctrinated to worship Holocaust perpetrators as national heroes.

BOOK BANS

“No state should be allowed to interfere in the writing of history.”—British historian Antony Beevor, after his award-winning book was banned in Ukraine, The Telegraph, January 23, 2018 

Ukraine’s State Committee for Television and Radio Broadcasting is enforcing the glorification of Ukraine’s new heroes by banning “anti-Ukrainian” literature that goes against the government narrative. This ideological censorship includes acclaimed books by Western authors.

In January 2018, Ukraine made international headlines by banning Stalingrad by award-winning British historian Antony Beevor because of a single paragraph about a Ukrainian unit massacring 90 Jewish children during World War II. In December, Kiev banned The Book Thieves by Swedish author Anders Rydell (which, ironically, is about the Nazis’ suppression of literature) because he mentioned troops loyal to Symon Petliura (an early 20th-century nationalist leader) had slaughtered Jews.

This month, the Ukrainian embassy in Washington exported this intolerance to America by brazenly demanding the United States ban a Russian movie from American theaters. Apparently, the billions Washington invested in promoting democracy in Ukraine have failed to teach Kiev basic concepts of free speech.

ANTI-SEMITISM

“I’m telling you one more time—go to hell, kikes. The Ukrainian people have had it to here with you.”—Security services reserve general Vasily Vovk, May 11, 2017

Unsurprisingly, government-led glorification of Holocaust perpetrators was a green light for other forms of anti-Semitism. The past three years saw an explosion of swastikas and SS runes on city streets, death threats, and vandalism of Holocaust memorials, Jewish centers, cemeteries, tombs, and places of worship, all of which led Israel to take the unusual step of publicly urging Kiev to address the epidemic.

Public officials make anti-Semitic threats with no repercussions. These include: a security services general promising to eliminate the zhidi (a slur equivalent to ‘kikes’); a parliament deputy going off on an anti-Semitic ranton television; a far-right politician lamenting Hitler didn’t finish off the Jews; and an ultranationalist leader vowing to cleanse Odessa of zhidi.

For the first few years after Maidan, Jewish organizations largely refrained from criticizing Ukraine, perhaps in the hope Kiev would address the issue on its own. But by 2018, the increasing frequency of anti-Semitic incidents led Jewish groups to break their silence.

Last year, the Israeli government’s annual report on anti-Semitism heavily featured Ukraine, which had more incidents than all post-Soviet states combined. The World Jewish Congress, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, and 57 members of the US Congress all vociferously condemned Kiev’s Nazi glorification and the concomitant anti-Semitism.

Ukrainian Jewish leaders are also speaking out. In 2017, the director of one of Ukraine’s largest Jewish organizations published a New York Times op-ed urging the West to address Kiev’s whitewashing. Last year, 41 Ukrainian Jewish leaders denounced the growth of anti-Semitism. That’s especially telling, given that many Ukrainian Jewish leaders supported the Maidan uprising.

None of these concerns have been addressed in any meaningful way.

ROMA POGROMS

“‘They wanted to kill us’: masked neo-fascists strike fear into Ukraine’s Roma.” —The Guardian, August 27, 2018

Ukraine’s far right has resisted carrying out outright attacks on Jews; other vulnerable groups haven’t been so lucky.

Last spring, a lethal wave of anti-Roma pogroms swept through Ukraine, with at least six attacks in two months. Footage from the pogroms evokes the 1930s: Armed thugs attack women and children while razing their camps. At least one man was killed, while others, including a child, were stabbed.

Two gangs behind the attacks—C14 and the National Druzhina—felt comfortable enough to proudly post pogrom videos on social media. That’s not surprising, considering that the National Druzhina is part of Azov, while the neo-Nazi C14 receives government funding for “educational” programs. Last October, C14 leader Serhiy Bondar was welcomed at America House Kyiv, a center run by the US government.

Appeals from international organizations and the US embassy fell on deaf ears: Months after the United Nations demanded Kiev end “systematic persecution” of the Roma, a human-rights group reported C14 were allegedly intimidating Roma in a joint patrol with the Kiev police.

LGBT AND WOMEN’S-RIGHTS GROUPS

“‘It’s even worse than before’: How the ‘Revolution of Dignity’ Failed LGBT Ukrainians.”—RFE, November 21, 2018

In 2016, after pressure from the US Congress, the Kiev government began providing security for the annual Kiev Pride parade. However, this increasingly looks like a Potemkin affair: two hours of protection, with widespread attacks on LGBT individuals and gatherings during the rest of the year. Nationalist groups have targeted LGBT meetings with impunity, going so far as to shut down an event hosted by Amnesty International as well as assault a Western journalist at a transgender rights rally. Women’s-rights marches have also been targeted, including brazen attacks in March.

ATTACKS ON PRESS

“The Committee to Protect Journalists condemns a Ukrainian law enforcement raid at the Kiev offices of Media Holding Vesti…more than a dozen masked officers ripped open doors with crowbars, seized property, and fired tear gas in the offices.”—The Committee to Protect Journalists, February 9, 2018

In May 2016, Myrotvorets, an ultranationalist website with links to the government, published the personal data of thousands of journalists who had obtained accreditation from Russia-backed rebels in eastern Ukraine. Myrotvorets labeled the journalists “terrorist collaborators.”

A government-tied website declaring open season on journalists would be dangerous anywhere, but it is especially so in Ukraine, which has a disturbing track record of journalist assassinations. This includes Oles Buzina, gunned down in 2015, and Pavel Sheremet, assassinated by car bomb a year later.

The Myrotvorets doxing was denounced by Western reporters, the Committee to Protect Journalists, and ambassadors from the G7 nations. In response, Kiev officials, including Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, praised the site: “This is your choice to cooperate with occupying forces,” Avakov told journalists, while posting “I Support Myrotvorets” on Facebook. Myrotvorets remains operational today.

Last fall brought another attack on the media, this time using the courts. The Prosecutor General’s office was granted a warrant to seize records of RFE anti-corruption reporter Natalie Sedletska. An RFE spokeswoman warned that Kiev’s actions created “a chilling atmosphere for journalists,” while parliament deputy Mustafa Nayyem called it “an example of creeping dictatorship.”

LANGUAGE LAWS

“[Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk] also made a personal appeal to Russian-speaking Ukrainians, pledging to support…a special status to the Russian language.”—US Secretary of State John Kerry, April 24, 2014

Ukraine is extraordinarily multilingual: In addition to the millions of Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians, there are areas where Hungarian, Romanian, and other tongues are prevalent. These languages were protected by a 2012 regional-language law.

The post-Maidan government alarmed Russian-speaking Ukrainians by attempting to annul that law. The US State Department and Secretary of State John Kerry sought to assuage fears in 2014 by pledging that Kiev would protect the status of Russian. Those promises came to naught.

A 2017 law mandated that secondary education be conducted strictly in Ukrainian, which infuriated Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece. Several regions passed legislation banning the use of Russian in public life. Quotas enforce Ukrainian usage on TV and radio. (This would be akin to Washington forcing Spanish-language media to broadcast mostly in English.)

And in February 2018, Ukraine’s supreme court struck down the 2012 regional language law—the one Kerry promised eastern Ukrainians would stay in effect.

Currently, Kiev is preparing to pass a draconian law that would mandate the use of Ukrainian in most aspects of public life. It’s another example of Kiev alienating millions of its own citizens, while claiming to embrace Western values.

THE PRICE OF WILLFUL BLINDNESS

These examples are only a tiny fraction of Ukraine’s slide toward intolerance, but they should be enough to point out the obvious: Washington’s decision to ignore the proliferation of armed neo-Nazi groups in a highly unstable nation only led to them gaining more power.

This easily predictable outcome is in marked contrast to Washington’s enthusiasm over the “Revolution of Dignity.” “Nationalism is exactly what Ukraine needs,” proclaimed a New Republic article by historian Anne Applebaum, whose celebration of nationalism came out right around the time that Ukraine green-lighted the formation of white-supremacist paramilitaries. A mere four months after Applebaum’s essay, Newsweek ran an article titled “Ukrainian nationalist volunteers committing ‘ISIS-style’ war crimes.”

In essay after essay, DC foreign-policy heads have denied or celebrated the influence of Ukraine’s far right. (Curiously, the same analysts vociferously denounce rising nationalism in Hungary, Poland, and Italy as highly dangerous.) Perhaps think-tankers deluded themselves into thinking Kiev’s far-right phase would tucker itself out. More likely, they simply embraced DC’s go-to strategy of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend.” Either way, the ramifications stretch far beyond Ukraine.

America’s backing of the Maidan uprising, along with the billions DC sinks into post-Maidan Kiev, make it clear: Starting February 2014, Ukraine became Washington’s latest democracy-spreading project. What we permit in Ukraine sends a green light to others.

By tolerating neo-Nazi gangs and battalions, state-led Holocaust distortion, and attacks on LGBT and the Roma, the United States is telling the rest of Europe: “We’re fine with this.” The implications—especially at a time of a global far-right revival—are profoundly disturbing.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/

 

 

 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

3 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to the situation needn't being overshadowed with Belarus and Russia. Unfortunately, in retrospect, my posts detracted from that, and to be honest, in the time since I have posted about it I have actually felt quite bad about it. To the degree that I wanted to hop back on and acknowledge it. It truly is irrelevant what his attachment to Azov was, and I genuinely do not want to come across as someone who linked the criminal treatment of him by Lukashenko to his past connections. In my mind I wasn't doing that, and while I know that I stated that multiple times in my threads, in retrospect it definitely came across that way. While I do link all of these things together in my mind as part of the continuing Russia/West tensions, it was not the place to do so here.

 

Now, for background as to why I often get involved with the Ukraine-Russia topic, (and have for years, going back to TOS) my honest position is that I am very concerned on this particular conflict. I know it well. I deal with it to some degree professionally and I have had many discussions as of late on it within my profession (government relations attorney) on the topic of "things here in Europe are not trending in the right direction".  We are heading for a major realignment geopolitically, IMO, and I pray we get there with as minimal pain as possible. As I have posted in other threads, it is precisely something like this Ukraine-Russia tension that start big wars, as they are both unreliable in their own ways, and in my opinion, in the current environment it is a powder keg waiting to happen. And if you are like me, sometimes you feel like the only thing that you can do in this world is to type shit out, as insignificant as it is, to the few places where you think someone will listen. It is silly, but it is human. And I am in a period of frustration on this subject and to be very honest, this board is about the only place in my life where I can do that freely.

 

In my mind, this Russia/Belarus/Ukraine trifecta of disaster has the potential to rupture the transatlantic alliance like no other, and I think that is an inevitability unless the powers of Europe, the US and Russia come to some type of arrangement on it. I see things like what happened in Ukraine last month, and this hijacking, all as part of the positioning here and it is not a simple situation. There is absolutely no military solution here and playing games with guns here is going to be disastrous. In my opinion, mistakes made here could easily have consequences for the world far, far more devastating than Iraq did and I feel that the US leadership is deliberately down-playing the degree in which Ukraine is crumbling under the current leadership and under the weight of vigilante lawlessness that is all over the country. There are a variety of reasons for that, none of them good.

 

As is clear from my posts, I despise Azov with a passion. While perhaps they played a justified role at the outset, they are a boil that should have been lanced long ago and now they have only increased their influence. I have watched as they have become increasingly oppressive in Ukrainian life, actively recruiting Neo-Nazis from across Europe, re-injecting a very dangerous ideology into a continent that quite frankly, isn't immune to such things taking hold. I think they need to be reigned in and I think our leadership is in a position to greatly influence just that. But I fear that our pathetic politicians won't. I do not see them as something that American taxpayers should be funding, or justifying; I do not see them as harmless, and I do not see them as insignificant. I see them as the latest iteration of US-funded fascism/extremism and I believe that our approach to the Ukrainian situation is foolish and will not end well. But that is for another time.

 

But, to illustrate my point re Azov, this article in The Nation is - in my opinion - is the best summary of what is actually going on over there. It is highly sourced, verified and accurate. It is two years old, but nothing has changed for the better.

So that said, again, apologies for being seen as muddying the waters.

 

 

 

I would sweat it. I would try and delete the one nazi shirt pic if possible.

[JimmyJames 12271]

12 minutes ago, Shady Ray said:

I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to the situation needn't being overshadowed with Belarus and Russia. Unfortunately, in retrospect, my posts detracted from that, and to be honest, in the time since I have posted about it I have actually felt quite bad about it. To the degree that I wanted to hop back on and acknowledge it. It truly is irrelevant what his attachment to Azov was, and I genuinely do not want to come across as someone who linked the criminal treatment of him by Lukashenko to his past connections. In my mind I wasn't doing that, and while I know that I stated that multiple times in my threads, in retrospect it definitely came across that way. While I do link all of these things together in my mind as part of the continuing Russia/West tensions, it was not the place to do so here.

 

Now, for background as to why I often get involved with the Ukraine-Russia topic, (and have for years, going back to TOS) my honest position is that I am very concerned on this particular conflict. I know it well. I deal with it to some degree professionally and I have had many discussions as of late on it within my profession (government relations attorney) on the topic of "things here in Europe are not trending in the right direction".  We are heading for a major realignment geopolitically, IMO, and I pray we get there with as minimal pain as possible. As I have posted in other threads, it is precisely something like this Ukraine-Russia tension that start big wars, as they are both unreliable in their own ways, and in my opinion, in the current environment it is a powder keg waiting to happen. And if you are like me, sometimes you feel like the only thing that you can do in this world is to type shit out, as insignificant as it is, to the few places where you think someone will listen. It is silly, but it is human. And I am in a period of frustration on this subject and to be very honest, this board is about the only place in my life where I can do that freely.

 

In my mind, this Russia/Belarus/Ukraine trifecta of disaster has the potential to rupture the transatlantic alliance like no other, and I think that is an inevitability unless the powers of Europe, the US and Russia come to some type of arrangement on it. I see things like what happened in Ukraine last month, and this hijacking, all as part of the positioning here and it is not a simple situation. There is absolutely no military solution here and playing games with guns here is going to be disastrous. In my opinion, mistakes made here could easily have consequences for the world far, far more devastating than Iraq did and I feel that the US leadership is deliberately down-playing the degree in which Ukraine is crumbling under the current leadership and under the weight of vigilante lawlessness that is all over the country. There are a variety of reasons for that, none of them good.

 

As is clear from my posts, I despise Azov with a passion. While perhaps they played a justified role at the outset, they are a boil that should have been lanced long ago and now they have only increased their influence. I have watched as they have become increasingly oppressive in Ukrainian life, actively recruiting Neo-Nazis from across Europe, re-injecting a very dangerous ideology into a continent that quite frankly, isn't immune to such things taking hold. I think they need to be reigned in and I think our leadership is in a position to greatly influence just that. But I fear that our pathetic politicians won't. I do not see them as something that American taxpayers should be funding, or justifying; I do not see them as harmless, and I do not see them as insignificant. I see them as the latest iteration of US-funded fascism/extremism and I believe that our approach to the Ukrainian situation is foolish and will not end well. But that is for another time.

 

But, to illustrate my point re Azov, this article in The Nation is - in my opinion - is the best summary of what is actually going on over there. It is highly sourced, verified and accurate. It is two years old, but nothing has changed for the better.

So that said, again, apologies for being seen as muddying the waters.

 

 

 

The “solution” to this problem is to start treating Russia like the criminal enterprise it is. Same thing with how the Democratic Party should start dealing with the republicans. No more negotiating and no more kid gloves. Stop pretending like Russia, Putin, Moscow Mitch and trump will do the right thing because they never will. This criminal hijacking doesn’t happen without a Putin’s blessing and I think you know that. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by JimmyJames

[Shady Ray 1633]

10 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

The “solution” to this problem is to start treating Russia like the criminal enterprise it is. Same thing with how the Democratic Party should start dealing with the republicans. No more negotiating and no more kid gloves. Stop pretending like Russia, Putin, Moscow Mitch and trump will do the right thing because they never will. This criminal hijacking doesn’t happen without a Putin’s blessing and I think you know that. 

I don't think (particularly after 2020) Lukashenko shits without Putin's permission. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Jesus Lord

He’s currently still alive and in surgery.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

BBC is reporting that Lukashenka has barred all foreign travel for BYS citizens except for official travel. That includes people with foreign residence permits. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57316838