Patio Audio with Streaming

[tigol 2421]

20 years ago, I easily wired some Klipsch outdoor speakers to my then patio and drove them with an Onkyo amp fairly seamlessly.  B channel.  Someone could watch TV while I listened to music outside.  I had a line running to the amp from my desktop so that I could "stream" my playlists.  It was great!

I have a Marantz slim receiver now and the wiring from my living room to the outside patio would be a nightmare.  

I'm thinking about buying an amp specifically for outdoor use and housing it in a room closer to the patio in order to run the wires.  We use Spotify and Amazon, but I have also ripped my old CD collection and would like to be able to stream from that as well.

Any suggestions?  I need tips on the speakers, wire, amps, and installation.  I don't want to drill holes and I think I can run the wires through the sliding patio door grooves.

Edit to add:  I'd like to keep this around $1000.  

Edited May 30, 2021 by tigol
$$

[Deej 77171]

A pair of Bluetooth speakers and stream from any device with Bluetooth? I'm willing to bet there's some dongle available to connect to an amp that doesn't have Bluetooth

[luke duke 6420]

Bluetooth is the way to go. Get a cheap Amazon tablet or an old cell phone to play your music so you can go in and out of your house without losing the signal.

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

On 5/30/2021 at 5:35 PM, tigol said:

20 years ago, I easily wired some Klipsch outdoor speakers to my then patio and drove them with an Onkyo amp fairly seamlessly.  B channel.  Someone could watch TV while I listened to music outside.  I had a line running to the amp from my desktop so that I could "stream" my playlists.  It was great!

I have a Marantz slim receiver now and the wiring from my living room to the outside patio would be a nightmare.  

I'm thinking about buying an amp specifically for outdoor use and housing it in a room closer to the patio in order to run the wires.  We use Spotify and Amazon, but I have also ripped my old CD collection and would like to be able to stream from that as well.

Any suggestions?  I need tips on the speakers, wire, amps, and installation.  I don't want to drill holes and I think I can run the wires through the sliding patio door grooves.

Edit to add:  I'd like to keep this around $1000.  

Does this Marantz have the HEOS streaming function built in (almost all new models do)? 

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

If it is this one, you do. 
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-1elRpqfxOAV/p_642NR1510/Marantz-NR1510-2019-model.html?cnxclid=16225063854966716393810090302008005

 

If so, buy this. It works exactly like SONOS but through your Marantz. Download the HEOS app. Allows for separate input and volume control for each speaker/zone. (SONOS 1 clone)
 

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033HME150B/Denon-Home-150-Black.html

It is expandable to as many rooms as can reach wifi, has blue tooth as well, and works will all streaming music apps. You can also mirror main receiver output if you want  

Only needs a power plug, no speaker wires 

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033HME350B/Denon-Home-350-Black.html

Sonos 5 clone

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[tigol 2421]

10 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

If it is this one, you do. 
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-1elRpqfxOAV/p_642NR1510/Marantz-NR1510-2019-model.html?cnxclid=16225063854966716393810090302008005

 

If so, buy this. It works exactly like SONOS but through your Marantz. Download the HEOS app. Allows for separate input and volume control for each speaker/zone. (SONOS 1 clone)
 

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033HME150B/Denon-Home-150-Black.html

It is expandable to as many rooms as can reach wifi, has blue tooth as well, and works will all streaming music apps. You can also mirror main receiver output if you want  

Only needs a power plug, no speaker wires 

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033HME350B/Denon-Home-350-Black.html

Sonos 5 clone

 

Thanks!!

[Buzzrock 15026]

They sell cheap little Pyle amplifiers on Amazon. I have a couple that I connected to existing wired speakers and then just plugged old Alexas into each one. Boom, cheap WiFi enabled streaming. You can even group them into zones (I have two in the basement).

[Buzzrock 15026]

I have one of these two. They work fine, just like the Pyles.

Nobsound 100W Mini Bluetooth 5.0 Power Amplifier Hi-Fi Stereo Class D Audio Amp 2.0 Channel Wireless Receiver Lossless Music Player TF USB Home Speaker (Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YJKSKJS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_5WAK16G758ZFWZAFX570?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

[Bevo 13635]

14 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Does this Marantz have the HEOS streaming function built in (almost all new models do)? 

Do you have HEOS? Can you tell me a little about it? I am building front and center channel speakers that are active, meaning that the crossover and amp are at the speaker. For the remaining surround speakers, I will probably purchase active speakers as well. It is for a new home so running wires won't be an issue. The speakers will need power so an outlet will be necessary by each speaker. I will run digital cables to the speakers because it is easy. But, assuming I purchase a Denon preamplifier with HEOS what would I need for HEOS? And what if any disadvantage is it to use HEOS over cables?

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

Do you have HEOS? Can you tell me a little about it? I am building front and center channel speakers that are active, meaning that the crossover and amp are at the speaker. For the remaining surround speakers, I will probably purchase active speakers as well. It is for a new home so running wires won't be an issue. The speakers will need power so an outlet will be necessary by each speaker. I will run digital cables to the speakers because it is easy. But, assuming I purchase a Denon preamplifier with HEOS what would I need for HEOS? And what if any disadvantage is it to use HEOS over cables?

I do have HEOS.

First question, why active speakers?  Just awesome and sound great or going for something else?

Quick answer to the question posted, no, you don't need HEOS.  Lets call what you posted your home theater room with L/C/R (3 x powered) and Surround speakers (2 x ? powered), or 5.1 surround.  The speaker cables in the walls are the best way to go here, and you will only need a pre-amplifer to run them.  Unfortunately, not being powered does not mean cheaper.  Things to consider would be 7.1 or 9.1 vs 5.1 (Dolby Atmos - not sure powered speakers work here), but that is another conversation for the Home Theater room only.

Now lets say you want to add speakers to bedrooms, back yard, garage etc...

With a HEOS enabled pre-amplifier you can add up to 32 wireless speakers (need to be in wifi range and powered) and run them independently or grouped from the iphone/android app.  Your home theater will be included on the app and in the Eco-system (ex all 32 speakers can mirror the horns game on main tv or run 32 different pandora songs). 

 

HEOS is an exact copy of the SONOS ecosystem, speakers and all.  You can do the same using the SONOS Eco-system with another expensive device called a "bridge" that allows your home theater set up to work with the SONOS eco system. 

HEOS deletes the middle man and makes everything work as one cohesive system.  It beats the hell out of multi-zone AVR solutions of old for whole home audio, way cheaper too.

Let me know if have any specific questions.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[Bevo 13635]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

I do have HEOS.

First question, why active speakers?  Just awesome and sound great or going for something else?

Quick answer to the question posted, no, you don't need HEOS.  Lets call what you posted your home theater room with L/C/R (3 x powered) and Surround speakers (2 x ? powered), or 5.1 surround.  The speaker cables in the walls are the best way to go here, and you will only need a pre-amplifer to run them.  Unfortunately, not being powered does not mean cheaper.  That's all you need to run this set up.  Things to consider would be 7.1 or 9.1 vs 5.1 (Dolby Atmos - not sure powered speakers work here), but that is another conversation for the Home Theater room only.

Now lets say you want to add speakers to bedrooms, back yard, garage etc...

With a HEOS enabled pre-amplifier you can add up to 32 wireless speakers (need to be in wifi range and powered) and run them independently or grouped from the iphone/android app.  Your home theater will be included on the app and in the eco system (ex all 32 speakers can mirror the horns game on main tv or run 32 different pandora songs). 

 

HEOS is an exact copy of the SONOS ecosystem, but lets you include a real home theater in the system as opposed to the expensive soundbar and bass box they sell for home theater.  SONOS also has a device called a "bridge" that allows your home theater set up to work with the SONOS eco system. 

HEOS deletes the middle man and makes everything work as one cohesive system.  It beats the hell out of multi-zone AVR solutions of old for whole home audio, way cheaper too.

Let me know if have any specific questions.

 

Active purportedly has better sound. However, that is not the reason for doing it. Designing a passive crossover is difficult and requires trial and error and is limited in what it can do. So unless you are an expert or pay big money to have it designed, you are more than likely to have worse results than a store bought speaker. MiniDSP has 2 and 3 way plate amplifiers with built in DSP. So you can manipulate the sound digitally and equalize it for the room and drivers and get a very flat response and faster roll-off between drivers than you could get from a passive crossover. I have never done it, but basically you set up the microphone in your typical listening position and then set everything up on your laptop.

When I was in college, I built a large subwoofer and electronic crossover. The subwoofer was good but the electronic crossover was not. Now that I have money, I figured I would try it again. So I purchased very expensive speaker drivers (Acoustic Elegance woofers and Mundorf tweeters - basically some of the best that you can buy) for a simple 2-way system. I have pretty much made the speaker cabinets. I am currently finishing them and will need to make grills. I have the plate amplifiers but not the drivers yet.

One huge caveat is that we haven't started building the home yet so I don't know how I will set everything up. I have a Denon receiver but I need to see if there is a pre-out. I don't want to purchase the pre-amplifier yet because a lot can change in 2 years when the house is finished. Plus, the DSP will need to be changed for the new house.

With HEOS, what do you need at the speaker to connect to the receiver?

 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

Nothing. It’s all run through your pre amplifier. So, speaker wires to pre-amp and it is hooked up (for the powered speakers and home theater room). 
 

And the speaker set up/build sound awesome. Start a thread or keep this one updated. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[HoustonHorn 1062]

I'll jump onto this thread since it seems you've solved the original issue.

I have a living room wired with 7.1. I also have outdoor patio speakers and an outdoor Sonarray SR1 system (8 speakers/2 subs).

I would like the Living Room, Patio speakers, and Sonarray to each have independent volume control and the source can be split to inside/outside (e.g TV inside, Music outside or any combo). I currently use an Onkyo receiver and Sonos Amp and Sonos Connect. None of the speakers are Sonos. To play the TV outside, the Sonos is connected to the TV HDMI Arc port. For some reason, this is creating a huge clusterfuck and the Sonos is automatically switching sources to the various zones, e.g., listening to music outside and it will randomly change to TV, or it will just turn on music inside even with the receiver off - it will turn it on and start playing.

I need to get rid of the Sonos. The setup with everything being hard wired and the app just suck. I also think it isn't powering the Sonarray system properly which is resulting in some of the speakers cutting in and out (I just rewired the speakers so that shouldn't be the issue).

Currently everything inside runs through the TV and AVR. If the TV is playing anything (OTA, Netflix, Playstation, etc.), and receiver is set to TV, it works and plays the correct input. This is critical because I don't want my kids to have to operate the receiver. To play music inside, you have to change the receiver to Sonos (although it does that all by itself now, even when you don't want it to). This is fine because I don't really care about having the music play inside, just want the ability to have the TV play outside.

Everything outside is currently run through the Sonos and doesn't use the receiver (main or 2nd zone).

Is there a 3-zone receiver that can handle this easily without the Sonos? Seems  like I could set up the inside with the main zone, then add the outdoor patio and Sonarray as Zones 2/3. Would be nice if the outdoor could be grouped and volume adjusted as a whole or independently (this is how the Sonos does it), but it isn't a deal killer to just have to adjust each volume independently. Also, if I ditch Sonos, what are the options for actually playing music through the system using Spotify/YouTube Music/etc. easily through my phone? Are the connect features on the receiver easy to use/operate?

Just read about the HEOS above, seems like that might work. However, I don't see YouTube Music listed. I hate YTM, but its also where all of my old albums have been uploaded so would be nice to be able to use it. Also appears the Android app is shit.

It needs to be EASY so my wife and kids can operate it.
 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

To play the TV outside, the Sonos is connected to the TV HDMI Arc port. For some reason, this is creating a huge clusterfuck and the Sonos is automatically switching sources to the various zones, e.g., listening to music outside and it will randomly change to TV, or it will just turn on music inside even with the receiver off - it will turn it on and start playing.

 

Don't use the ARC (audio return channel) HDMI port on the back of the outside tv and see if that fixes the problem.  That is the "home command" input that does auto switching and turn off with no extra programming etc (not just return audio), by switching to a non ARC HDMI you may fix the switching problem.

 

Thinking on this more, you are using ARC because you want to output the TV audio to the outdoor speakers. A simple move to another hdmi won’t do. It would need its own audio connection (optical, coaxial etc) to still play TV audio. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

"I also think it isn't powering the Sonarray system properly which is resulting in some of the speakers cutting in and out (I just rewired the speakers so that shouldn't be the issue). "

The sonnarray has its own amp that you are running to the SONOS connect, right?  That powers the 8 speakers and sub, but how are you powering the additional 2 outdoor speakers?  Two additional speakers to the SONOS amp?

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

"s there a 3-zone receiver that can handle this easily without the Sonos? Seems  like I could set up the inside with the main zone, then add the outdoor patio and Sonarray as Zones 2/3. Would be nice if the outdoor could be grouped and volume adjusted as a whole or independently (this is how the Sonos does it), but it isn't a deal killer to just have to adjust each volume independently. Also, if I ditch Sonos, what are the options for actually playing music through the system using Spotify/YouTube Music/etc. easily through my phone? Are the connect features on the receiver easy to use/operate?"

So, true 3 Zone (independent inputs capable) are around, but expensive, difficult to set up and use.

Obviously many ways to go to get power to the speakers, but the rub its the control/UI.  Sonos is successful because of that UI.  How to get all zones/rooms/speakers to easily switch and control by app etc.  These solutions can get crazy, see Savant control systems.  Getting the Onkyo to play nice with any app will be a challenge or a large bill. 

 

[HoustonHorn 1062]

 

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

To play the TV outside, the Sonos is connected to the TV HDMI Arc port. For some reason, this is creating a huge clusterfuck and the Sonos is automatically switching sources to the various zones, e.g., listening to music outside and it will randomly change to TV, or it will just turn on music inside even with the receiver off - it will turn it on and start playing.

 

Don't use the ARC (audio return channel) HDMI port on the back of the outside tv and see if that fixes the problem.  That is the "home command" input that does auto switching and turn off with no extra programming etc (not just return audio), by switching to a non ARC HDMI you may fix the switching problem.

 

"Currently everything inside runs through the TV and AVR. If the TV is playing anything (OTA, Netflix, Playstation, etc.), and receiver is set to TV, it works and plays the correct input. This is critical because I don't want my kids to have to operate the receiver. "

This is ARC in action.  All AVRs pretty much do this standard.

Yeah, except for ARC, it worked fine. The problem happened once we tried to get the TV to play outside. I think I'll try to map it out tonight when I get home. I've had a guy doing all the setup because I get too frustrated trying to get this shit to work. You know anyone in Houston who does this stuff?

 

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

"I also think it isn't powering the Sonarray system properly which is resulting in some of the speakers cutting in and out (I just rewired the speakers so that shouldn't be the issue). "

The sonnarray has its own amp that you are running to the SONOS connect, right?  That powers the 8 speakers and sub, but how are you powering the additional 2 outdoor speakers?  Two additional speakers to the SONOS amp?

Yes. The other speakers are running through the Sonos Amp, not the Connect. So thinking about it, I don't know why the speakers (sonarray, not the patio) keep cutting out. Maybe it is a connection issue but everything was just rewired.

53 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

"s there a 3-zone receiver that can handle this easily without the Sonos? Seems  like I could set up the inside with the main zone, then add the outdoor patio and Sonarray as Zones 2/3. Would be nice if the outdoor could be grouped and volume adjusted as a whole or independently (this is how the Sonos does it), but it isn't a deal killer to just have to adjust each volume independently. Also, if I ditch Sonos, what are the options for actually playing music through the system using Spotify/YouTube Music/etc. easily through my phone? Are the connect features on the receiver easy to use/operate?"

So, true 3 Zone (independent inputs capable) are around, but expensive, difficult to set up and use.

Obviously many ways to go to get power to the speakers, but the rub its the control/UI.  Sonos is successful because of that UI.  How to get all zones/rooms/speakers to easily switch and control by app etc.  These solutions can get crazy, see Savant control systems.  Getting the Onkyo to play nice with any app will be a challenge or a large bill. 

 

Hard to imagine that Sonos is the best UI. Its terrible. What is needed is a simple pass through so you can just use the app (Spotify, Tidal, whatever) without a middle man app like Sonos which does not match up with the functionality and options that the apps themselves have. You end up with some bastardized combination of partial functionality.

Edited June 1, 2021 by HoustonHorn

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

See what Onkyo offers. They may have an “online music” mode that handles all streaming services like denon (HEOS) with built in app (if don’t want to mess with changing main AVR).  Then all you need is a second Onkyo AVR for the back to run 2 speakers, tv and sonarray. 
 

I think 2 denons get you what you want. Everything on one app. Both receivers. All zones. All inputs. 
 

No recs for Houston unfortunately. 

[HoustonHorn 1062]

Can't check the Onkyo app until I'm home but it does have Spotify connect along with some other services. It also has Google Cast, so  I can stream directly from YTM.

Two receivers might be the solution. Hopefully I can just get a second Onkyo but if I need to get two Denons, then I guess that will be what it is and I'll see if we can return the Onkyo.

Thanks for the info!

 

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

I would also post the question on AVS Fourm. Lots of good advice from people who know way more than they should for a hobby lol. 

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

3 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

To play the TV outside, the Sonos is connected to the TV HDMI Arc port. For some reason, this is creating a huge clusterfuck and the Sonos is automatically switching sources to the various zones, e.g., listening to music outside and it will randomly change to TV, or it will just turn on music inside even with the receiver off - it will turn it on and start playing.

 

Don't use the ARC (audio return channel) HDMI port on the back of the outside tv and see if that fixes the problem.  That is the "home command" input that does auto switching and turn off with no extra programming etc (not just return audio), by switching to a non ARC HDMI you may fix the switching problem.

Thinking on this more, you are using ARC because you want to output the TV audio to the outdoor speakers. A simple move to another hdmi won’t do. It would need its own audio connection (optical, coaxial etc) to still play TV audio. 
“

Instead of changing the HDMI from ARC to another, go to your TV setup menu and turn off the “smart command” “home control” etc option for the TV. This should turn that HDMI output into audio only instead of trying to control other components. Should hopefully stop the random input switching all over the house. 
 

*if that makes sense. 

[Bevo 13635]

2 hours ago, HoustonHorn said:

Can't check the Onkyo app until I'm home but it does have Spotify connect along with some other services. It also has Google Cast, so  I can stream directly from YTM.

Two receivers might be the solution. Hopefully I can just get a second Onkyo but if I need to get two Denons, then I guess that will be what it is and I'll see if we can return the Onkyo.

Thanks for the info!

 

That is what I generally do. It is easier and AV receivers are cheap.