the problem is physiological...or Why People Deny Facts

[mchookem 16386]

i've wanted to post this in numerous threads, but there's too many that it applies to...and they aren't even all political lol

some of y'all may follow The Oatmeal and have seen this. i saw it when the author first shared it several years ago. coincidentally it was shortly after i'd had a discussion with my mother that went something like this:

mom: right wing bs that was demonstrably false

me: "that is a lie"

mom: "no it's not!"

me: picks up phone to google reality...

mom: "oh, don't try and get me with facts!"

me: 😳

i'm sure many of y'all have had similar conversations. and obviously we all have this same conversation online daily.

a couple of weeks later i saw this...i found it fascinating and it explains so much.

it has caused me since to basically 'double check' myself when presented with a position counter to something i have thought, and i like to think that effort has made me a better/smarter/more critical thinker.

unfortunately it also makes me think there is literally no way out of our current political discourse. these seeds have been sown and are here for good.

anyway... interested to see thoughts on it...

You're not going to believe what i'm about to tell you...

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

[Neonmoon 38130]

That should just be posted every page in every CR thread as required reading

[TexasEd 8077]

It's compounded by tribalism.  When you get a bunch of people together that reinforce beliefs in false information it becomes an echo chamber and then an us vs them mentality ensues.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/a-new-report-offers-insights-into-tribalism-in-the-age-of-trump

[washparkhorn 9939]

Love it. 

Science is working on drugs to enhance neural plasticity in humans. Faster please.

 https://aeon.co/essays/can-neuroscience-give-my-brain-the-plasticity-of-a-child-s

• The possibility of reawakening our youthful, receptive brains has piqued a lot of interest among educators, therapists, and those in search of expanded experience or thought.
  • I might be able to immerse myself in music lessons and absorb them more effectively.
  • Others might disable the plasticity brakes before a trip abroad, quickly learning a new language.
  • Still others might wish to tweak an imperfect golf swing.
  • The implications are more profound for people with autism spectrum disorders, mental illness and physical disabilities: re‑opening critical periods could help us rebuild the physical structures of our brains, erasing bad connections and wiring them anew.

[Pato del Muerto 52600]

Relevant recent anecdote:

wife just spent a week at her mother’s house.  While there, she noticed a complimentary copy of Epoch Times (addressee was Name OR CURRENT RESIDENT). She read some of it and was appalled. 
so she asked her mother why she’s reading such lies. Mother’s reply- it’s not lies it’s true! Wife- why do you think it’s true? MIL- because I saw it on tv too!  
 

You get one guess which channel she means. 

[mchookem 16386]

1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

Love it. 

Science is working on drugs to enhance neural plasticity in humans. Faster please.

 https://aeon.co/essays/can-neuroscience-give-my-brain-the-plasticity-of-a-child-s

• The possibility of reawakening our youthful, receptive brains has piqued a lot of interest among educators, therapists, and those in search of expanded experience or thought.
  • I might be able to immerse myself in music lessons and absorb them more effectively.
  • Others might disable the plasticity brakes before a trip abroad, quickly learning a new language.
  • Still others might wish to tweak an imperfect golf swing.
  • The implications are more profound for people with autism spectrum disorders, mental illness and physical disabilities: re‑opening critical periods could help us rebuild the physical structures of our brains, erasing bad connections and wiring them anew.

wow. i mean, that would be fantastic. i feel like that's one of the benefits touted in the controlled application of psychedelics maybe? i've seen stories about guided mushroom trips and such...

maybe not for learning a new skill or language, but for breaking down the rigidity of our psyche. 

anyway...the linked comic is long but it's a fun read and worth it. 

[Mdhorn 5987]

2 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Love it. 

Science is working on drugs to enhance neural plasticity in humans. Faster please.

 https://aeon.co/essays/can-neuroscience-give-my-brain-the-plasticity-of-a-child-s

• The possibility of reawakening our youthful, receptive brains has piqued a lot of interest among educators, therapists, and those in search of expanded experience or thought.
  • I might be able to immerse myself in music lessons and absorb them more effectively.
  • Others might disable the plasticity brakes before a trip abroad, quickly learning a new language.
  • Still others might wish to tweak an imperfect golf swing.
  • The implications are more profound for people with autism spectrum disorders, mental illness and physical disabilities: re‑opening critical periods could help us rebuild the physical structures of our brains, erasing bad connections and wiring them anew.

I wonder if this could undo mental abuse or parental installed wiring?  That really would be amazing.  

Edited June 2, 2021 by Mdhorn

[Willfully Horn 8049]

20 minutes ago, mchookem said:

wow. i mean, that would be fantastic. i feel like that's one of the benefits touted in the controlled application of psychedelics maybe? i've seen stories about guided mushroom trips and such...

maybe not for learning a new skill or language, but for breaking down the rigidity of our psyche. 

anyway...the linked comic is long but it's a fun read and worth it. 

Babies brains are plastic, que no?

Brain scans show how LSD mimics mind of a baby

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0X82B2
 

OTOH, disabling the human impulse for self preservation? That cat is out of the bag. Holy, and no, shit.

[washparkhorn 9939]

The Wall Street boys get excited when you tell them it could cure premature ejaculation ("hit it quick" to avoid predators). 

But I digress further from the OP's excellent post on how to identify unnecessary and quickly eliminate inefficient old prejudices - for which I apologize. What a perfect example provided in the OP.  

 

[jimmyjazz 46130]

17 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Um, I’m horrified at the prospect of reprogramming people’s brains.  Medical use for people with autism, development mental disorder or brain injuries who lost cognitive ability / never developed is one thing.   Messing with someone’s brain because you don’t like their politics is appalling. 

Sounds like something a libtard would say.

[elfenix 34332]

why do i feel the sudden urge to use my mastercard for purchases?

[Upgrayedd 5818]

5 hours ago, mchookem said:

i've wanted to post this in numerous threads, but there's too many that it applies to...and they aren't even all political lol

some of y'all may follow The Oatmeal and have seen this. i saw it when the author first shared it several years ago. coincidentally it was shortly after i'd had a discussion with my mother that went something like this:

mom: right wing bs that was demonstrably false

me: "that is a lie"

mom: "no it's not!"

me: picks up phone to google reality...

mom: "oh, don't try and get me with facts!"

me: 😳

i'm sure many of y'all have had similar conversations. and obviously we all have this same conversation online daily.

a couple of weeks later i saw this...i found it fascinating and it explains so much.

it has caused me since to basically 'double check' myself when presented with a position counter to something i have thought, and i like to think that effort has made me a better/smarter/more critical thinker.

unfortunately it also makes me think there is literally no way out of our current political discourse. these seeds have been sown and are here for good.

anyway... interested to see thoughts on it...

You're not going to believe what i'm about to tell you...

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

TLDR negged 

[mchookem 16386]

16 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Um, I’m horrified at the prospect of reprogramming people’s brains.  Medical use for people with autism, development mental disorder or brain injuries who lost cognitive ability / never developed is one thing.   Messing with someone’s brain because you don’t like their politics is appalling. 

well yeah... but the amygdala applies to everything,  not just politics. that's the point. 

and nobody is advocating reprogramming anybody. but i could see massive benefits of an applied treatment for addiction, or trauma recovery, stuff like that.

but these are really two separate topics.

[Brian Fantana 6690]

5 hours ago, mchookem said:

i've wanted to post this in numerous threads, but there's too many that it applies to...and they aren't even all political lol

some of y'all may follow The Oatmeal and have seen this. i saw it when the author first shared it several years ago. coincidentally it was shortly after i'd had a discussion with my mother that went something like this:

mom: right wing bs that was demonstrably false

me: "that is a lie"

mom: "no it's not!"

me: picks up phone to google reality...

mom: "oh, don't try and get me with facts!"

me: 😳

i'm sure many of y'all have had similar conversations. and obviously we all have this same conversation online daily.

a couple of weeks later i saw this...i found it fascinating and it explains so much.

it has caused me since to basically 'double check' myself when presented with a position counter to something i have thought, and i like to think that effort has made me a better/smarter/more critical thinker.

unfortunately it also makes me think there is literally no way out of our current political discourse. these seeds have been sown and are here for good.

anyway... interested to see thoughts on it...

You're not going to believe what i'm about to tell you...

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

That is brilliant. I wish I could upvote this more than once.

[Goredho 17419]

Tl:dr

(I liked it but couldn’t resist)

[RPM 26354]

5 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

Um, I’m horrified at the prospect of reprogramming people’s brains.  Medical use for people with autism, development mental disorder or brain injuries who lost cognitive ability / never developed is one thing.   Messing with someone’s brain because you don’t like their politics is appalling. 

[hpslugga 4062]

5 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

Um, I’m horrified at the prospect of reprogramming people’s brains.  Medical use for people with autism, development mental disorder or brain injuries who lost cognitive ability / never developed is one thing.   Messing with someone’s brain because you don’t like their politics is appalling. 

Dude, come on.

QAnon is not a “political position.”
Pizzagate is not a “political position.”
”The 2020 election was rigged” isn’t a political position.

Political positions arise from an agreed set of facts. When we got rid of slavery, the anti-abolitionists weren’t arguing that “slavery isn’t a real thing.” When women got the vote, opponents didn’t argue that “there’s no such thing as women.”

I understand where you’re coming from, but let’s not confuse reality denial/make believe/pretend/conspiracy theories and all that crap with “politics.”

[Nivek 16986]

It is a nice post, but didn’t most of this come out about 10-15 years ago?

[Celery Man 20996]

Tribalism is a factor, people entrenching themselves in a position have a hard time being convinced to unentrench.

But also the problem we have now with the political right is a different from "well everyone (on both sides) is very partisan/tribal now". It's that + one side is completely untethered from reality.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13587]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

Dude, come on.

QAnon is not a “political position.”
Pizzagate is not a “political position.”
”The 2020 election was rigged” isn’t a political position.

Political positions arise from an agreed set of facts. When we got rid of slavery, the anti-abolitionists weren’t arguing that “slavery isn’t a real thing.” When women got the vote, opponents didn’t argue that “there’s no such thing as women.”

I understand where you’re coming from, but let’s not confuse reality denial/make believe/pretend/conspiracy theories and all that crap with “politics.”

Ok, Lizard Dude.

[hpslugga 4062]

12 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Ok, Lizard Dude.

Hey man, I’m here trying to destroy the Illuminati FOR YOU! Some people, I swear.

[smuggs 9353]

12 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Science is working on drugs to enhance neural plasticity in humans. Faster please.

Will my refreshed brain regain complete teenage control over my bowels so that I may once again consume a whole Gatti's jalapeno pep and a 1/2 gal Blue Bell chocolate chip without shitting my pants?

[GW Hayduke 1953]

The question seems to be: why has a substantial percent of the US population been captured by misinformation, disinformation, propaganda, conspiracy theories, and magical thinking? IMO the answer includes the below three elements.

- People susceptible to propaganda: Segments of our population were educated before social media and the internet and do not have a grounded understanding of how to digest and process information put in front of them.  There is also the low educated who weren't able to pick up the needed critical thinking skills and media skills.  They do not understand the methods of weaponized propaganda. They do not understand they are in an information bubble. 

- Weaponized propaganda: The GOP and right wing powers are well funded. They have the ability to craft narratives and push those narratives with a high degree of effect. Their narratives are pushed by right wing leaders and echoed throughout the information landscape, including talk radio, cable news, twitter, facebook, youtube, podcasts, reddit, and religious groups. These narratives use fear-based identity politics (immigration, race, socialism) and wedge issues (abortion, guns) to tap into people's genetic predisposition towards tribalism.  Algorithms, social media, and personalized advertising amplify this effect. Think Cambridge Analytica.  Troll farms pushing these narratives through social media have been a thing for years.  Foreign actors also play a role in funding and pushing these narratives.  The "vast right-wing conspiracy" directed at the Clintons is an early elementary example of this. 

- Information bubbles: People allow themselves to only be exposed to information that supports their preexisting ideas.  People experience positive brain chemistry when presented things supporting their beliefs.  It is hard and uncomfortable to be challenged; thus, it is easier to avoid counter information than it is to consume and critically consider. Information sources link each other giving the false impression that ideas are widely supported or accurate. Certain search algorithms exist (youtube) that push people deeper into rabbit holes.  

A succinct answer is probably something like the right uses weaponized propaganda to control people susceptible to propaganda and place them within media bubbles that then result in large populations being within alternative realities.  

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20493]

18 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

The question seems to be: why has a substantial percent of the US population been captured by misinformation, disinformation, propaganda, conspiracy theories, and magical thinking? IMO the answer includes the below three elements.

- People susceptible to propaganda: Segments of our population were educated before social media and the internet and do not have a grounded understanding of how to digest and process information put in front of them.  There is also the low educated who weren't able to pick up the needed critical thinking skills and media skills.  They do not understand the methods of weaponized propaganda. They do not understand they are in an information bubble. 

- Weaponized propaganda: The GOP and right wing powers are well funded. They have the ability to craft narratives and push those narratives with a high degree of effect. Their narratives are pushed by right wing leaders and echoed throughout the information landscape, including talk radio, cable news, twitter, facebook, youtube, podcasts, reddit, and religious groups. These narratives use fear-based identity politics (immigration, race, socialism) and wedge issues (abortion, guns) to tap into people's genetic predisposition towards tribalism.  Algorithms, social media, and personalized advertising amplify this effect. Think Cambridge Analytica.  Troll farms pushing these narratives through social media have been a thing for years.  Foreign actors also play a role in funding and pushing these narratives.  The "vast right-wing conspiracy" directed at the Clintons is an early elementary example of this. 

- Information bubbles: People allow themselves to only be exposed to information that supports their preexisting ideas.  People experience positive brain chemistry when presented things supporting their beliefs.  It is hard and uncomfortable to be challenged; thus, it is easier to avoid counter information than it is to consume and critically consider. Information sources link each other giving the false impression that ideas are widely supported or accurate. Certain search algorithms exist (youtube) that push people deeper into rabbit holes.  

A succinct answer is probably something like the right uses weaponized propaganda to control people susceptible to propaganda and place them within media bubbles that then result in large populations being within alternative realities.  

Of course, they say the same things about you, that you life in an information bubble, that the Dems from Pelosi on down have weaponized propaganda etc...

[GW Hayduke 1953]

6 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Of course, they say the same things about you, that you life in an information bubble, that the Dems from Pelosi on down have weaponized propaganda etc...

Of course.  That narrative fits for them.  It doesn't make it true though. Just because one thinks both sides are the same, doesn't mean that both sides are in fact the same.

Propaganda exists to some degree everywhere, everyone is susceptible in some degree to propaganda, and everyone is to some degree in an information bubble; however, only one side is substantially captured in an alternative reality flooded with conspiracy theories and magical thinking.  Only one side believes in the Big Lie.  Only one side (28%) believes government is controlled by a cabal of pedophile cannibals.  Only one side is overly acceptable to doublethink - the Jan 6th insurrections were antifa and also just tourists, voter fraud was rampant and overturned elections but the GOP's statewide successes were legitimate. 

[mchookem 16386]

5 hours ago, Nivek said:

It is a nice post, but didn’t most of this come out about 10-15 years ago?

maybe? i actually do remember reading years ago about a study done by i believe Boston University that found that when confronted with facts that countered a deeply held belief (in the case of the study it was specifically politics), the subjects would basically double-down on the incorrect belief rather than accept factual evidence to the contrary. 

this reinforces that obviously, but i like understanding what is actually happening in the brain, which is cool. plus, it's very funny 😄

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

Of course.  That narrative fits for them.  It doesn't make it true though. Just because one thinks both sides are the same, doesn't mean that both sides are in fact the same.

Propaganda exists to some degree everywhere, everyone is susceptible in some degree to propaganda, and everyone is to some degree in an information bubble; however, only one side is substantially captured in an alternative reality flooded with conspiracy theories and magical thinking.  Only one side believes in the Big Lie.  Only one side (28%) believes government is controlled by a cabal of pedophile cannibals.  Only one side is overly acceptable to doublethink - the Jan 6th insurrections were antifa and also just tourists, voter fraud was rampant and overturned elections but the GOP's statewide successes were legitimate. 

...and this is the flipside to understanding what's happening in people's brains, and why it seems so hopeless. short of deprogramming, there's not much to be done - a not insignificant segment of the population is basically checked out from reality and there's a physical reason why that can't be fixed. we joke about 'their brains are broken'...but they kinda really are. 😕

 

[Chuckie Finster 22735]

3 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

- People susceptible to propaganda: Segments of our population were educated before social media and the internet and do not have a grounded understanding of how to digest and process information put in front of them.  There is also the low educated who weren't able to pick up the needed critical thinking skills and media skills.  They do not understand the methods of weaponized propaganda. They do not understand they are in an information bubble. 

Semi-relevant contribution to this: A family friend recently shared on Facebook some long rant about electric cars or some shit (I stopped reading) but the first comment was an elderly lady saying "thanks for posting this article, very insightful."  It's a small thing, but the use of the word "article" was eye-opening to me.  An alarming portion of the population sees no difference between a rambling Facebook post from a stranger and a front page article in the New York Times.  

[GW Hayduke 1953]

3 minutes ago, mchookem said:

maybe? i actually do remember reading years ago about a study done by i believe Boston University that found that when confronted with facts that countered a deeply held belief (in the case of the study it was specifically politics), the subjects would basically double-down on the incorrect belief rather than accept factual evidence to the contrary. 

this reinforces that obviously, but i like understanding what is actually happening in the brain, which is cool. plus, it's very funny 😄

...and this is the flipside to understanding what's happening in people's brains, and why it seems so hopeless. short of deprogramming, there's not much to be done - a not insignificant segment of the population is basically checked out from reality and there's a physical reason why that can't be fixed. we joke about 'their brains are broken'...but they kinda really are. 😕

 

I agree with the idea that some brains are broken in that they have developed cravings for dopamine, which keep them looking for libtard ownage within their restricted information bubble.  Deprogramming is the correct term to use.

I don't think it is hopeless but I do think hard action is required to stop the expansion of propaganda and then to reverse it.  It would require protecting people from being susceptible to propaganda, destroying the tools and systems used by propagandists - driving them into the shadows, and getting people to expand their information bubbles.

[Woland 749]

Semi-relevant contribution to this: A family friend recently shared on Facebook some long rant about electric cars or some shit (I stopped reading) but the first comment was an elderly lady saying "thanks for posting this article, very insightful."  It's a small thing, but the use of the word "article" was eye-opening to me.  An alarming portion of the population sees no difference between a rambling Facebook post from a stranger and a front page article in the New York Times.  

They see a difference. The random post is reality and the NYT is fake news.

[Brisketexan 105336]

1 - cool.

2 -- the people who need to read/understand/know that do not care, and will never, ever do so.

3 -- we're fucked.

You're welcome for the synopsis.

[Sbbruin 21888]

17 hours ago, TexasEd said:

It's compounded by tribalism.  When you get a bunch of people together that reinforce beliefs in false information it becomes an echo chamber and then an us vs them mentality ensues.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/a-new-report-offers-insights-into-tribalism-in-the-age-of-trump

This is one of the fundamental problems.  People retreat to those corners where their beliefs are supported, regurgitated, and reinforced over and over until any counter-argument falls on deaf ears.  Or worse, is assumed to false because the other side supports it.  How in the fuck did vaccines get politicized?  While trump was in office, he was touting his Warp Speed project and that he was the hero of the universe.  But as soon as it became Biden who actually implemented it, it had to be some big damn Lib conspiracy!  What if Trump had been re-elected instead and had been the one to tout the vaccine's promise and efficacy?  Would the tables have been flipped?  Probably not to anywhere near the degree, but maybe to some degree.  But echo chambers are going to be major contributors to the socio-political divide.  Case in point:

https://texags.com/forums/16

[RDCanecutter 26473]

19 hours ago, mchookem said:

 

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

Cartoonists are bad people and I wouldn't believe what they say.

[mchookem 16386]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

1 - cool.

2 -- the people who need to read/understand/know that do not care, and will never, ever do so.

3 -- we're fucked.

You're welcome for the synopsis.

 

[jimmyjazz 46130]

If one is not curious enough to constantly look for reasons to reframe their own perspective, then one is stuck in a bubble.

I have no idea how to convince people who refuse to do this that they are, in fact, stuck in a bubble.  I am pretty convinced it is a byproduct of a diminishing quality of education, but it's possible the masses were this poorly educated all along.

In a nutshell, far too many Americans are afraid to be wrong, and will do anything possible to convince themselves that they are in fact right.  It's the antithesis of any means by which one might grow in thought and spirit.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

7 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Semi-relevant contribution to this: A family friend recently shared on Facebook some long rant about electric cars or some shit (I stopped reading) but the first comment was an elderly lady saying "thanks for posting this article, very insightful."  It's a small thing, but the use of the word "article" was eye-opening to me.  An alarming portion of the population sees no difference between a rambling Facebook post from a stranger and a front page article in the New York Times.  

Usually those people spell it "artical." Same people write "loser" as "looser." 

[Biff Tannen 45741]

7 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

If one is not curious enough to constantly look for reasons to reframe their own perspective, then one is stuck in a bubble.

I have no idea how to convince people who refuse to do this that they are, in fact, stuck in a bubble.  I am pretty convinced it is a byproduct of a diminishing quality of education, but it's possible the masses were this poorly educated all along.

In a nutshell, far too many Americans are afraid to be wrong, and will do anything possible to convince themselves that they are in fact right.  It's the antithesis of any means by which one might grow in thought and spirit.

It’s this plus the inability to think critically, which would allow them to get out of the bubble. Which goes back to your lack of education point. 

[Nivek 16986]

19 hours ago, mchookem said:

maybe? i actually do remember reading years ago about a study done by i believe Boston University that found that when confronted with facts that countered a deeply held belief (in the case of the study it was specifically politics), the subjects would basically double-down on the incorrect belief rather than accept factual evidence to the contrary. 

this reinforces that obviously, but i like understanding what is actually happening in the brain, which is cool. plus, it's very funny 😄

...and this is the flipside to understanding what's happening in people's brains, and why it seems so hopeless. short of deprogramming, there's not much to be done - a not insignificant segment of the population is basically checked out from reality and there's a physical reason why that can't be fixed. we joke about 'their brains are broken'...but they kinda really are. 😕

 

I thought it was related to science not politics (Global warming, evolution, etc.)

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

19 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

1 - cool.

2 -- the people who need to read/understand/know that do not care, and will never, ever do so.

3 -- we're fucked.

You're welcome for the synopsis.

yeah it was a really insightful and simple resource that helped shine light on how completely and utterly fucked we are.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

20 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Semi-relevant contribution to this: A family friend recently shared on Facebook some long rant about electric cars or some shit (I stopped reading) but the first comment was an elderly lady saying "thanks for posting this article, very insightful."  It's a small thing, but the use of the word "article" was eye-opening to me.  An alarming portion of the population sees no difference between a rambling Facebook post from a stranger and a front page article in the New York Times.  

As someone who studied the formal, capital J Journalism as a craft and discipline in college and learned the basics around the methodologies and rules that once kept journalists integrity intact as a trusted, unbiased medium whose mission was to inform and educate the population, I feel like journalism contributed to their own downfall when they bit the poison fruit of entertainment/infotainment in the name of dollars and profit.

I have no sympathy for the CNN's of the world because, while they aren't as extreme or as awful as pure infotainment like Fox News, they are all every bit as coin operated and they lit on fire their position as a trusted beacon of truth when they began to wrest ad dollars and corporate sponsorship and airport money every chance they could.

Edited June 3, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 143]

On 6/1/2021 at 6:55 PM, mchookem said:

i've wanted to post this in numerous threads, but there's too many that it applies to...and they aren't even all political lol

some of y'all may follow The Oatmeal and have seen this. i saw it when the author first shared it several years ago. coincidentally it was shortly after i'd had a discussion with my mother that went something like this:

mom: right wing bs that was demonstrably false

me: "that is a lie"

mom: "no it's not!"

me: picks up phone to google reality...

mom: "oh, don't try and get me with facts!"

me: 😳

i'm sure many of y'all have had similar conversations. and obviously we all have this same conversation online daily.

a couple of weeks later i saw this...i found it fascinating and it explains so much.

it has caused me since to basically 'double check' myself when presented with a position counter to something i have thought, and i like to think that effort has made me a better/smarter/more critical thinker.

unfortunately it also makes me think there is literally no way out of our current political discourse. these seeds have been sown and are here for good.

anyway... interested to see thoughts on it...

You're not going to believe what i'm about to tell you...

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

I just read The Oatmeal article and thought it was nice, thanks for sharing.

I think it did a good job of highlighting what I've tried to explain on here as the disconnect, which is the core beliefs/worldview that anchors our thinking, to a lot of people, is completely different and separated by a wide enough gulf that there isn't a lot of efficiency in discussions. I think this divide is growing and we see it playing out in America.

I also see the biggest political issue, it seems, is for those who would put their faith and core beliefs into the things of this world. Those who anchor around this human experience and the current iteration of existence-- living, breathing on earth for 80 years if you are lucky-- without having much transcendental or infinite core beliefs, seem to be the most affected with antithetical beliefs to their own.

Or maybe I'm just trying to think and justify why I registered each of those facts in that cartoon that were supposed to be increasingly inflammatory in the same uninterested way. New and differing information does not bother me and I could not care less what other people think or believe or feel, because of a supreme awareness and confidence in my beliefs and in my north star.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

12 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

As someone who studied the formal, capital J Journalism as a craft and discipline in college and learned the basics around the methodologies and rules that once kept journalists integrity intact as a trusted, unbiased medium whose mission was to inform and educate the population, I feel like journalism contributed to their own downfall when they bit the poison fruit of entertainment/infotainment in the name of dollars and profit.

I have no sympathy for the CNN's of the world because, while they aren't as extreme or as awful as pure infotainment like Fox News, they are all every bit as coin operated and they lit on fire their position as a trusted beacon of truth when they began to wrest ad dollars and corporate sponsorship and airport money every chance they could.

I too have studied journalism, and have practiced it full time for 20 years.

"With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.” 

So said Hunter S. Thompson, long before he went off the rails into self-parody. Everything that makes it into print, on the web, or on the air, is created by human beings, and human beings are incapable of being truly objective about anything, always and forever.

And it's a matter of perception. Millions see Fox News as objective. Other millions think the same of CNN or MSNBC.

Yes, CNN has become more partisan in recent years. Trump forced them into it by openly antagonizing them at every opportunity. Back in the Dubya years they deliberately staked out the mushy middle between Fox and MSNBC so that they would be the inoffensive alternative that aired in public spaces, but Trump (and yes, CNN management) pushed them off that perch.

If you want the closest thing to true objectivity in broadcast news on politics, C-Span is your best bet. 

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

13 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I too have studied journalism, and have practiced it full time for 20 years.

"With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.” 

So said Hunter S. Thompson, long before he went off the rails into self-parody. Everything that makes it into print, on the web, or on the air, is created by human beings, and human beings are incapable of being truly objective about anything, always and forever.

And it's a matter of perception. Millions see Fox News as objective. Other millions think the same of CNN or MSNBC.

Yes, CNN has become more partisan in recent years. Trump forced them into it by openly antagonizing them at every opportunity. Back in the Dubya years they deliberately staked out the mushy middle between Fox and MSNBC so that they would be the inoffensive alternative that aired in public spaces, but Trump (and yes, CNN management) pushed them off that perch.

If you want the closest thing to true objectivity in broadcast news on politics, C-Span is your best bet. 

 

The human condition rendering both the idea of true randomness and cold, machine-like objectivity duly noted, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the vote of no confidence that Americans have given big Journalism (and as a consequence, essentially discredited the idea of a monolithic "public intellectual" for a more federated, choose your own famous/celebrity/pop-culture business/science/political influencer based on your faction). 

I'm not saying the above is a good or bad thing, even, I'm just positing why I think "An alarming portion of the population sees no difference between a rambling Facebook post from a stranger and a front page article in the New York Times".

There is no respect from the laymen for your profession and craft anymore because journalists are seen as just people with opinions pushing an agenda for a media communications business with shareholders to feed, no different or better than anyone else. Truly democratic, I guess.

Edited June 3, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[WhatTheBuck 28798]

On 6/2/2021 at 11:14 AM, GW Hayduke said:

The question seems to be: why has a substantial percent of the US population been captured by misinformation, disinformation, propaganda, conspiracy theories, and magical thinking? IMO the answer includes the below three elements.

- People susceptible to propaganda: Segments of our population were educated before social media and the internet and do not have a grounded understanding of how to digest and process information put in front of them.  There is also the low educated who weren't able to pick up the needed critical thinking skills and media skills.  They do not understand the methods of weaponized propaganda. They do not understand they are in an information bubble. 

- Weaponized propaganda: The GOP and right wing powers are well funded. They have the ability to craft narratives and push those narratives with a high degree of effect. Their narratives are pushed by right wing leaders and echoed throughout the information landscape, including talk radio, cable news, twitter, facebook, youtube, podcasts, reddit, and religious groups. These narratives use fear-based identity politics (immigration, race, socialism) and wedge issues (abortion, guns) to tap into people's genetic predisposition towards tribalism.  Algorithms, social media, and personalized advertising amplify this effect. Think Cambridge Analytica.  Troll farms pushing these narratives through social media have been a thing for years.  Foreign actors also play a role in funding and pushing these narratives.  The "vast right-wing conspiracy" directed at the Clintons is an early elementary example of this. 

- Information bubbles: People allow themselves to only be exposed to information that supports their preexisting ideas.  People experience positive brain chemistry when presented things supporting their beliefs.  It is hard and uncomfortable to be challenged; thus, it is easier to avoid counter information than it is to consume and critically consider. Information sources link each other giving the false impression that ideas are widely supported or accurate. Certain search algorithms exist (youtube) that push people deeper into rabbit holes.  

A succinct answer is probably something like the right uses weaponized propaganda to control people susceptible to propaganda and place them within media bubbles that then result in large populations being within alternative realities.  

You left out the part where Ronald Reagan invited the evangelicals into the party and gave them a voice, introducing magical thinking into politics. That’s evolved over the decades into people who call themselves “Christians” (regardless of whether or not they let the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament instruct their worldview...more often not) thinking that the God of Abraham favors the Republicans while the Democrats are the party of Satan.  No rational person would think that way but religious believers aren’t rational thinkers.

Religion poisons everything and it’s played a huge role in contributing to the toxic mess that is the modern Republican Party. 

[mchookem 16386]

21 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I just read The Oatmeal article and thought it was nice, thanks for sharing.

I think it did a good job of highlighting what I've tried to explain on here as the disconnect, which is the core beliefs/worldview that anchors our thinking, to a lot of people, is completely different and separated by a wide enough gulf that there isn't a lot of efficiency in discussions. I think this divide is growing and we see it playing out in America.

I also see the biggest political issue, it seems, is for those who would put their faith and core beliefs into the things of this world. Those who anchor around this human experience and the current iteration of existence-- living, breathing on earth for 80 years if you are lucky-- without having much transcendental or infinite core beliefs, seem to be the most affected with antithetical beliefs to their own.

Or maybe I'm just trying to think and justify why I registered each of those facts in that cartoon that were supposed to be increasingly inflammatory in the same uninterested way. New and differing information does not bother me and I could not care less what other people think or believe or feel, because of a supreme awareness and confidence in my beliefs and in my north star.

i appreciate your response here...i understand the point you're making and in a way i agree with you.

i often - i mean really often - look at my friends that are extremely religious and i envy them greatly, as they do not seem to have a care in the world. i mean, i'm sure they do...but they are definitely not engaged by the monumental happenings in the world that impact others' lives so significantly. just to keep it here... voter suppression, police militarization and use of force, mass shootings, etc... they are aware of these things, but, as you say, those are things 'of this world' and that's a shame, let's say a prayer about it, pour another glass of wine and do the next chapter in our bible study...

i just think that's a copout. i find it 'simple minded', not in being stupid or uneducated, just in not engaging deeply about the human condition and being motivated to respond, etc.

everybody's mind works differently...and i actually have these friends because there was a period in my life when i tried, for years, to get my mind in that state. church, bible study, small groups, etc...for many years...i envied the simplicity and ease with which some people looked at life. i wanted that badly.

but i finally realized i was the odd one out in these settings, i wasnt 'getting' it, i just couldn't relate to the vast majority of the people i encountered...i wanted to, so badly...but i constantly felt like an interloper. the only way i can really state it is...i found the majority 'simple minded' (again, i am not saying they were stupid). 

i've often described it as someone just floating through life, la-de-da. and i envy that to this day. i fully acknowledge i would probably be a much 'happier' person if i could just get there...and when my heart is breaking over a terrible injustice, when i am moved to tears by empathy for others...yes, i still often think 'my god i wish i could just coast through this life and not care so much!' i really do.

but it is not me. i have this brain that engages in critical thinking and deep thought, that reacts emotionally to vast events well beyond my circles of control, power, and influence.

i could, if i were so inclined, even say God made me this way. following that...he's the one that put us all here. it seems quite the waste to just look beyond the human experience to only focus on what's next. 

i guess i'm saying i envy you your ability to not be bothered or 'not care less' about others thoughts or feelings bc it makes you happier, but that is just anathema to me.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

5 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i appreciate your response here...i understand the point you're making and in a way i agree with you.

i often - i mean really often - look at my friends that are extremely religious and i envy them greatly, as they do not seem to have a care in the world. i mean, i'm sure they do...but they are definitely not engaged by the monumental happenings in the world that impact others' lives so significantly. just to keep it here... voter suppression, police militarization and use of force, mass shootings, etc... they are aware of these things, but, as you say, those are things 'of this world' and that's a shame, let's say a prayer about it, pour another glass of wine and do the next chapter in our bible study...

i just think that's a copout. i find it 'simple minded', not in being stupid or uneducated, just in not engaging deeply about the human condition and being motivated to respond, etc.

everybody's mind works differently...and i actually have these friends because there was a period in my life when i tried, for years, to get my mind in that state. church, bible study, small groups, etc...for many years...i envied the simplicity and ease with which some people looked at life. i wanted that badly.

but i finally realized i was the odd one out in these settings, i wasnt 'getting' it, i just couldn't relate to the vast majority of the people i encountered...i wanted to, so badly...but i constantly felt like an interloper. the only way i can really state it is...i found the majority 'simple minded' (again, i am not saying they were stupid). 

i've often described it as someone just floating through life, la-de-da. and i envy that to this day. i fully acknowledge i would probably be a much 'happier' person if i could just get there...and when my heart is breaking over a terrible injustice, when i am moved to tears by empathy for others...yes, i still often think 'my god i wish i could just coast through this life and not care so much!' i really do.

but it is not me. i have this brain that engages in critical thinking and deep thought, that reacts emotionally to vast events well beyond my circles of control, power, and influence.

i could, if i were so inclined, even say God made me this way. following that...he's the one that put us all here. it seems quite the waste to just look beyond the human experience to only focus on what's next. 

i guess i'm saying i envy you your ability to not be bothered or 'not care less' about others thoughts or feelings bc it makes you happier, but that is just anathema to me.

Fair deal. As you said, everyone is on a different journey and value, believe and have faith in different things. Again, I think this fundamental truth is why there is conflict.

[RDCanecutter 26473]

Journalism went off the skids when reporters quit wearing fedoras and stopped keeping a bottle of rotgut in the bottom drawer.

You're all nodding "yes" because you know it's true.

[Biff Tannen 45741]

16 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i appreciate your response here...i understand the point you're making and in a way i agree with you.

i often - i mean really often - look at my friends that are extremely religious and i envy them greatly, as they do not seem to have a care in the world. i mean, i'm sure they do...but they are definitely not engaged by the monumental happenings in the world that impact others' lives so significantly. just to keep it here... voter suppression, police militarization and use of force, mass shootings, etc... they are aware of these things, but, as you say, those are things 'of this world' and that's a shame, let's say a prayer about it, pour another glass of wine and do the next chapter in our bible study...

i just think that's a copout. i find it 'simple minded', not in being stupid or uneducated, just in not engaging deeply about the human condition and being motivated to respond, etc.

everybody's mind works differently...and i actually have these friends because there was a period in my life when i tried, for years, to get my mind in that state. church, bible study, small groups, etc...for many years...i envied the simplicity and ease with which some people looked at life. i wanted that badly.

but i finally realized i was the odd one out in these settings, i wasnt 'getting' it, i just couldn't relate to the vast majority of the people i encountered...i wanted to, so badly...but i constantly felt like an interloper. the only way i can really state it is...i found the majority 'simple minded' (again, i am not saying they were stupid). 

i've often described it as someone just floating through life, la-de-da. and i envy that to this day. i fully acknowledge i would probably be a much 'happier' person if i could just get there...and when my heart is breaking over a terrible injustice, when i am moved to tears by empathy for others...yes, i still often think 'my god i wish i could just coast through this life and not care so much!' i really do.

but it is not me. i have this brain that engages in critical thinking and deep thought, that reacts emotionally to vast events well beyond my circles of control, power, and influence.

i could, if i were so inclined, even say God made me this way. following that...he's the one that put us all here. it seems quite the waste to just look beyond the human experience to only focus on what's next. 

i guess i'm saying i envy you your ability to not be bothered or 'not care less' about others thoughts or feelings bc it makes you happier, but that is just anathema to me.

I could not agree more. I have always viewed my life and existence in an extremely logical way, hence my rejecting religion out of hand. Not in an atheistic sense, but the organized aspect and fire and brimstone part of it. 
 

While I would also love to basically not care about what happens to the other humans (and non-humans) in this world, I’m just not wired that way. I am selfish as shit in some ways, usually to those closest to me, which I’m working on, but ironically the larger picture is something I really feel empathy for. I think part of it is seeing how advanced we are as an intelligent species and how badly we suck at a lot of things. We should be far better than we are, overall. 

[Mole 4333]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

New and differing information does not bother me and I could not care less what other people think or believe or feel, because of a supreme awareness and confidence in my beliefs and in my north star.

In many cases, these personal “north stars” are built on ever expanding  conceptual houses of cards that don’t have much basis in reality. In their thinking, letting go of these other concepts means letting go of their north star.

It’s a pretty foundational approach to a lot of preaching, both religious and political. It’s easier to convince someone to your way of thinking or acting if you make them believe that their core values are under attack.

If we are unable to separate ancillary beliefs from the core belief (assuming the core belief is right, good, or helpful), there’s a certain gravity to the mess of core and ancillary beliefs that attracts new beliefs, creating some sort of intellectual black hole. Who knows what kind of degeneracy will attach itself to even good core beliefs? This past year has been pretty instructive.

Even your statements about faith were perceived as some sort of indifference to human suffering. Historically that makes no sense, but in 2021 it’s a pretty reasonable interpretation.

[mchookem 16386]

Quote

Who knows what kind of degeneracy will attach itself to even good core beliefs? This past year has been pretty instructive.

omg yes. it's been a horror movie. but not just the past year...the complete abdication of what was supposed to be 'core values' by a vast majority of christians in favor of 'libtard tears' has literally been horrifying. i cannot get past it, ever. charlatans all.

you are also correct that historically many people of faith have devoted their lives to addressing human suffering...but Donkey himself said he was not bothered and could not care less about other's thoughts, beliefs, and feelings.

if i'm being really cynical... i'd say both the above points are a result specifically of the uniquely American bastardization of christian morality. hegemony, manifest destiny, guns above all else, etc...

'Merica!

[DonkeyCigars 143]

10 minutes ago, Mole said:

In many cases, these personal “north stars” are built on ever expanding  conceptual houses of cards that don’t have much basis in reality. In their thinking, letting go of these other concepts means letting go of their north star.

It’s a pretty foundational approach to a lot of preaching, both religious and political. It’s easier to convince someone to your way of thinking or acting if you make them believe that their core values are under attack.

If we are unable to separate ancillary beliefs from the core belief (assuming the core belief is right, good, or helpful), there’s a certain gravity to the mess of core and ancillary beliefs that attracts new beliefs, creating some sort of intellectual black hole. Who knows what kind of degeneracy will attach itself to even good core beliefs? This past year has been pretty instructive.

Even your statements about faith were perceived as some sort of indifference to human suffering. Historically that makes no sense, but in 2021 it’s a pretty reasonable interpretation.

Who's reality? Yours or mine? Do we share a reality? Should we?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if we believe perception is reality, then we will necessarily be at odds with those who don't perceive-- believe, think, or have the same faiths in the same things-- as we do. 

I think that is what we are seeing with the progress made in equality. For years the shared reality was seen solely through the prism of white males. They/We set the strategy and vision and cascaded it down to the rest of society. The rest of society (a myriad of different personas, races, ethnicities, self-identifications, etc.) has pushed back and said, "hey, we have a different reality than you people and we should be able to live it out as true to ourselves as we can" or whatever. 

Now multiply that individualism or factionalism times 40 million and you have America today. What was once a patriarchal white male mirror is now millions upon millions individual shards of glass.

To tie this back to the OP and original discussion, what was once a single source of truth (Journalism) is now seen as a sham because everyone has a) a unique perspective b) desires/goals/agendas c) the ability with the advent of technology to broadcast and consume media that is custom or tailored for their consumption.

I'll say it louder for those in the back: with accessible 5G technology on the horizon, the lightning speed that is the advancement of technology is only going to exacerabte the American problem. America will further entrench as a land where a group of dozens of factions merely and begrudgingly share a geography, without any shared ethic, beliefs, goals, agendas. The manifest of true democratization of media and technology (succulent Chinese dinner reference for those paying attention at home) has come at the expense of an abstraction that, while imperfect for a lot of people, held together the idea of the United States of America.

I think technology will eventually prove that the United States of America was always doomed to fail once BIPOC gained agency on the level of their suppressors, the white European male. But isn't that okay? Nothing was built to last forever. If we take an emotional step backwards and try and be objective, what's wrong with America being a great tool and needed for what it was but having outlived her utility?