Pick-up game in Heaven -- you get first pick

[hobbes2702 13073]

43 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I was going with the guy you would least want to fight, not the guy who is most likely to put you on a poster.  Played a pickup game with Kemp once and got to throw him a lob pass.  Thought it was too high.  It wasn’t.

I knew someone here had told a story about throwing lobs to Kemp but couldn’t remember who.

[TexArcher 38066]

I'm a big fan of both players, but to act as if Shaq was significantly better than Hakeem in their primes is to act as if defense doesn't matter.  Dream was one of the two or three best defenders to ever play the position.

They'd give you more or less the same scoring (in different ways) and rebounding.  But Dream could shut down, or at least severely limit, the other team's Hall of Fame center at the same time.  Shaq never had that facet.

Edited June 4, 2021 by TexArcher

[TexArcher 38066]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I suppose Hakeem was the better defender, but he didn’t shut down 3rd year Shaq by any stretch of the imagination. And it isn’t as if Shaq was a defensive slouch. 

There is no better defensive center than Russell and then Wilt closely behind him. Dream doesn’t approach them. 

Okay, so Dream is the 3rd best defensive center of all time and Shaq isn't in the top 25 in that regard.  Point stands.  

Look, Dream won titles when it was a centers' league.  He outplayed David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Shaquille O'Neal, and others.  And he was exceptional at both ends.

Shaq had brute force in a way that no one else ever has.  Dream was better at literally everything else.

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Hardin and Steph are more efficient on offense, but Jordan is an all-time great defender.  They basically suck ass.

 

Curry would also get beat the fuck up in pick up game.

Read the rules. He’s playing inside, 12 minute quarters with refs. 
I don’t know why he titled it pickup game but it isn’t. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

He had 6 seasons after that 3rd season where he was clearly better. He definitely deteriorated more quickly than Hakeem. Largely because of style of play. 

Isn’t in Top 25?  Shaq was a pretty damn good defender. Dream was an elite shot blocker, and better than Shaq in that regard.  But that metric is really overrated for defenders, and he couldn’t ever stop Shaq. 

Hakeem wasn’t a better rebounder than Shaq. Regardless, Shaq’s strength was such a dominant force that it elevated Shaq above Hakeem, despite Hakeem being a more refined player. 

Shaq gets downplayed and ridiculed a bunch, because the perception is he was just big and nothing more. It’s a crock of shit. 

I will never say a bad word about how great Shaq was. He was awesome. 
But read the caveats. He doesn’t fit as well in today’s game as Hakeem. He’d be iso spread off the court. Hakeem could do a credible job of staying in front of guards and forwards in isolation. Shaq couldn’t even begin to try to Guard Curry or Harden on a switch.  You’d have to play nothing but drop coverage with him and you’d get torched. 

[TexArcher 38066]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Isn’t in Top 25?  Shaq was a pretty damn good defender. Dream was an elite shot blocker, and better than Shaq in that regard.  But that metric is really overrated for defenders, and he couldn’t ever stop Shaq. 

Oh, come on.  Shaq never even made 1st Team All Defense.  Dream won two defensive MVP's and blocked more shots than anyone in history.  They're not remotely close.

And I'm not knocking Shaq.  As I said, I liked the guy.  But as an all-around player, Dream has to rate higher.

I'ma get off my soapbox now.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Read the rules. He’s playing inside, 12 minute quarters with refs. 
I don’t know why he titled it pickup game but it isn’t. 

Ok.  Refs from the 80’s.  Not these bitchass touch fouls and falling diwn on themselves like Hardin. 
 

curry and Hardin would get laughed out of the building/ cloud. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

if it's NBA rules and refs, here's my team:

G-Magic

G-MJ

F- Larry

F- LeBron

C- Hakeem

 

bench:

Steph Curry

KD

Oscar

Duncan

Russell

Jokic

Pippen

Rodman

 

My starting five + Steph and KD plays the overwhelming majority of my minutes. Everyone else is there for situational play and exploiting certain matchups. They're all just role players on this team. 

 

also, why is the game taking place in heaven? 

Edited June 5, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Guest]

So Jerry Jones can’t host it?

[Underdog 28773]

It's in heaven because Iowa's booked up. 

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

5 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

if it's NBA rules and refs, here's my team:

G-Magic

G-MJ

F- Larry

F- LeBron

C- Hakeem

 

bench:

Steph Curry

KD

Oscar

Duncan

Russell

Jokic

Pippen

Rodman

 

My starting five + Steph and KD plays the overwhelming majority of my minutes. Everyone else is there for situational play and exploiting certain matchups. They're all just role players on this team. 

 

also, why is the game taking place in heaven? 

Where else will everyone have their perfect bodies in their primes. 
Btw- my picks were based upon someone else picking against me. I figure if I take 2012 Lebron you are taking Jordan, etc and so forth. I think I could get all those players in a draft with you. 
 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Are you talking about James Harden or Rusty Hardin?

Yes. 

[staboner 4987]

1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I suppose Hakeem was the better defender, but he didn’t shut down 3rd year Shaq by any stretch of the imagination. And it isn’t as if Shaq was a defensive slouch. 

There is no better defensive center than Russell and then Wilt closely behind him. Dream doesn’t approach them. 

disagree. you can argue hakeen is GOAT defender regardless of position. and that is with the data (blocks and steals) + the base 3 levels of D.  he was elite as a on ball post defender, great team defender (help/blocks/steals) and could switch and guard almost any wing/forward. 

only Wilt or KAJ can claim anywhere as near two-way dominance with each of them greater legacy on offense than Hakeem. but hakeem holds his own still with the dream shake

shaq was not a great defender nor a great rebounder. there is plenty of data to show that. he certainly was the most dominant on offense (maybe Wilt?) and that is somewhat a toss up as a equal body (yao) could shut him down. 

russel is elite D but not on offense. past that hard to comment on wilt and russel for obv reasons of not seeing them

IMO defense is something so wildly misunderstood by the general public (not you Rex, just a passing comment). Hakeem took a fuckingn beating from Shaq in the 95 finals. go back and watch game 1 and.2 and watch the painful officiating while Shaq runs over Hakeem 3 times and gets called for traveling. lulz. Dream is playing remarkable on man post defense in this game, exerting shitons of energy, and playing point center for offense. he was the center of each side of play.  over the course of the series hakeem took shaq out of the game offensively. shaq's numbers came in trash time and/or on clear plays where Dream was in rotation (put back dunks, etc)

to me - to the OP - the answer is Jordan for the reasons @shadow_operative says on page one. mental + skill is the 1 person different than the rest

[staboner 4987]

55 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I agree Hakeem ought to be rated higher (as a defender) than Shaq. But they’re a lot closer than you think. Shaq was second team all-D a lot - but was behind Hakeem and Tim and Mutumbo. Which is reasonable. 

The notions that Shaq was merely a big body and Wilt wasn’t as good as Russell are equally laughable. Wilt was the best by a wide margin, and Shaq had fantastic post moves and touch for a big guy. Was he as graceful as Hakeem or block as many shots?  No. Was he a stud in the post, a massive defensive presence, and a more prolific scorer and rebounder in his prime than anyone not named Wilt or KAJ or Bill (for rebounding and D)?  Yes. He was better than Hakeem. 

so hard to judge Wilt IMO. lost when it mattered and teammates don't like him and/or pick him. that shows me some mental issues. 

Shaq had a bit of a 10 cent head as well. lazy, lacked leadership, etc.

dream, duncan, russel, players like them (bigs) had such strong mental toughness and leadership skills which are underappreciated in defense basketball 

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

Oh, come on.  Shaq never even made 1st Team All Defense.  Dream won two defensive MVP's and blocked more shots than anyone in history.  They're not remotely close.

And I'm not knocking Shaq.  As I said, I liked the guy.  But as an all-around player, Dream has to rate higher.

I'ma get off my soapbox now.

Spurs fans a bit surly these days

[ztejas 43537]

1 hour ago, staboner said:

disagree. you can argue hakeen is GOAT defender regardless of position. and that is with the data (blocks and steals) + the base 3 levels of D.  he was elite as a on ball post defender, great team defender (help/blocks/steals) and could switch and guard almost any wing/forward. 

only Wilt or KAJ can claim anywhere as near two-way dominance with each of them greater legacy on offense than Hakeem. but hakeem holds his own still with the dream shake

shaq was not a great defender nor a great rebounder. there is plenty of data to show that. he certainly was the most dominant on offense (maybe Wilt?) and that is somewhat a toss up as a equal body (yao) could shut him down. 

russel is elite D but not on offense. past that hard to comment on wilt and russel for obv reasons of not seeing them

IMO defense is something so wildly misunderstood by the general public (not you Rex, just a passing comment). Hakeem took a fuckingn beating from Shaq in the 95 finals. go back and watch game 1 and.2 and watch the painful officiating while Shaq runs over Hakeem 3 times and gets called for traveling. lulz. Dream is playing remarkable on man post defense in this game, exerting shitons of energy, and playing point center for offense. he was the center of each side of play.  over the course of the series hakeem took shaq out of the game offensively. shaq's numbers came in trash time and/or on clear plays where Dream was in rotation (put back dunks, etc)

to me - to the OP - the answer is Jordan for the reasons @shadow_operative says on page one. mental + skill is the 1 person different than the rest

Lmao Shaq "wasn't a great rebounder". This thread is delivering.

[staboner 4987]

3 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Wilt is the most misunderstood player in history. He was clearly the best individual center ever. Like, it’s not even a contest. He never had anything close to the support Russell had. And because you say Shaq was lazy and dumb, and claim people generally don’t understand defense (agreed), and then back it up by using commonly refrained anecdotes about why Hakeem was the defensive GOAT, I’ll just bow out. You throw out popular comments after I conceded Hakeem is a better overall defender and was better in ‘95. And Shaq is just a dumb big body. Not a discussion worth having. 

good lord man its a fun convo, no need to freak out. shaq lacked some element of work ethic. pretty sure this is commonly known. its doesn't immediately mean he is a big dumb body. splitting hairs on the internet of leendary players. relax

[staboner 4987]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Lmao Shaq "wasn't a great rebounder". This thread is delivering.

exactly, he is terrible. shit i could outrebound him any day

[closetohumping 17470]

I hate to quote Bill Walton but I’ll quote will balton.  If you. Had a pickup game with the greatest players in the history of basketball, the two guys you couldn’t guard are wilt and shaq.   Look up shaqs number vs guys like Hakeem and Robinson.  Physically dominated them. 

[closetohumping 17470]

11 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I agree Hakeem ought to be rated higher (as a defender) than Shaq. But they’re a lot closer than you think. Shaq was second team all-D a lot - but was behind Hakeem and Tim and Mutumbo. Which is reasonable. 

The notions that Shaq was merely a big body and Wilt wasn’t as good as Russell are equally laughable. Wilt was the best by a wide margin, and Shaq had fantastic post moves and touch for a big guy. Was he as graceful as Hakeem or block as many shots?  No. Was he a stud in the post, a massive defensive presence, and a more prolific scorer and rebounder in his prime than anyone not named Wilt or KAJ or Bill (for rebounding and D)?  Yes. He was better than Hakeem. 

Even in their head to head series in the finals.  I think shaq had more assists, rebounds and steals. Shot a lot better as well.  Hakeem did average more pog but that was prime Hakeem vs young shaq.  
 

also go ahead and look up Dreams h2h numbers vs Robinson.   Not as lopsided as you may think

Edited June 5, 2021 by closetohumping

[irishtexan 11522]

Your first pick is Jordan. This isn’t up for debate.

Your center is wilt. This isn’t up for debate.

Everything else is up for debate.

[RPM 26354]

I'll take the boy from French Lick.

[Ignatius 4028]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:55 PM, shadow_operative said:

Jordan is the only answer, because he's not only the best player, but also the biggest psycho about winning. If he's the GOAT in NBA sanctioned, properly officiated games, then he's untouchable in a pick up game where foul calls are for pussies and there's no technical fouls for trash talking. Michael might break some people out there. I could see him trash talking Kyrie into retirement. 

Fucking this, though if there are virtually no offensive fouls prime Charles Barkley rockets up the draft board into top 5 territory…

[closetohumping 17470]

11 hours ago, irishtexan said:

Your first pick is Jordan. This isn’t up for debate.

Your center is wilt. This isn’t up for debate.

Everything else is up for debate.

Wouldn’t prime Kobe at least make it competitive vs mj?  Bron as well

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Wouldn’t prime Kobe at least make it competitive vs mj?  Bron as well

for the 2nd pick?  Maybe.

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

Wouldn’t prime Kobe at least make it competitive vs mj?  Bron as well

too selfish. doesn't make teammates better. volume shooter from deep. ball dominator. plenty better options than Kobe. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

to me it starts and ends with perimeter players, and the best ever in that category are MJ, Larry, Magic, Steph, Oscar, LBJ, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor. all of them are ahead of Kobe, Zeke, Stockton, etc. and those are the guys who matter the most in this, and pretty much all other basketball scenarios. they have the ball in their hands with the game/series/title on the line. it's MJ, then Magic and Larry, then a big gap, then Oscar, Steph, Elgin, West, etc. then Kobe. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

25 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

to me it starts and ends with perimeter players, and the best ever in that category are MJ, Larry, Magic, Steph, Oscar, LBJ, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor. all of them are ahead of Kobe, Zeke, Stockton, etc. and those are the guys who matter the most in this, and pretty much all other basketball scenarios. they have the ball in their hands with the game/series/title on the line. it's MJ, then Magic and Larry, then a big gap, then Oscar, Steph, Elgin, West, etc. then Kobe. 

KD is flat better than Bird imo. 

[conVINCEd 21469]

19 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

to me it starts and ends with perimeter players, and the best ever in that category are MJ, Larry, Magic, Steph, Oscar, LBJ, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor. all of them are ahead of Kobe, Zeke, Stockton, etc. and those are the guys who matter the most in this, and pretty much all other basketball scenarios. they have the ball in their hands with the game/series/title on the line. it's MJ, then Magic and Larry, then a big gap, then Oscar, Steph, Elgin, West, etc. then Kobe. 

How many of these people did you actually see play?  I cannot speak intelligently on the guys from the 60’s, because I never watched them play, and there’s not a lot of video available.  Elgin Baylor feels like the most criminally underrated guy in league history, but I would have to actually see it to buy in. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

you don't have to have seen something happen to be educated on it. i don't claim to be an academic or a historian, but i will point to academics and historians as examples of my contention. i was raised on basketball and well versed on the sport and its history from an early age. i grew up around the sport, with a father who had decades of experience working in high level basketball, with an encyclopedic memory (some of which he passed on to me) to boot. i don't need to have seen Earl Campbell play to know where he stands in history. i don't need to have watched Willie Mays or Hank Aaron to say that they were better than Vladimir Guerrero and Larry Walker. neither do you. we've all seen enough film, read enough stats, and heard enough stories to know what's what. if you have a specific beef or disagreement with what i've said, then feel free to rebut it. 

[cmontexas 3281]

Whichever team has Steph forces the other team to guard 35 feet of court. Assuming his other 4 teammates are Hall of Fame/ Top 10 All Time level players, I think that's the difference in the game

Shaq surrounded by 4 plus shooters won 3 titles and was pretty unstoppable also

Draft

Team A: Curry

Team B: MJ

A: Shaq

B: LBJ

A: KD

B: Magic

A: Bird

B: Kobe

A: Kawhi

B: Kareem

_________________________

Shaq, KD, Bird, Leonard, Curry

vs

Wilt, LBJ, Kobe, MJ, Magic

 

Bottom team would probably be favored but the top team would be unstoppable on offense, even against team Bs all time great killers. Would be fun to watch 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

KD is flat better than Bird imo. 

Not at basketball.

[ChiTownDoc 21154]

On 6/4/2021 at 12:19 PM, hobbes2702 said:

Jordan is the only answer

Len Bias.  So we can finally see what he can do vs the big boys.  He’d get a standing O as well.  

[TonyTexas 10527]

In a true pickup game, Woody Harrelson or Wesley Snipes

[Covri 6253]

Only one correct answer 

 

[shadow_operative 15932]

they have got to go to Kawhi now. 

 

wrong thread 

Edited June 6, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Deej 76920]

16 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

KD is flat better than Bird imo. 

I'll take Bird in a pick-up game any day. 

Relentless competitor. 

[hookem48 4703]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:05 PM, Loch Ness Monster said:

Gotta go with someone that can knock down 3s at a decent clip. 

Unless heaven basketball is an era where teams are only taking a handful of three pointers a game.

well that would be heaven

[hookem48 4703]

On 6/4/2021 at 5:14 PM, Speedway said:

I disagree with you, Olajuwon was better in every phase over O'Neal.  In 1995 O'Neal was in his prime and Olajuwon ate his lunch and refused to let Shaq even get supper in the NBA Finals; which of course Houston won in four straight without so much as a whimper from O'Neal.

A year or two later in a regular season game Shaq got the ball down low, put a shoulder into Hakeem knocking him back about 3 steps, both guys stopped waiting for the whistle, none came, Shaq dunked.  It was over for Hakeem vs Shaq.

[hookem48 4703]

16 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

you don't have to have seen something happen to be educated on it. i don't claim to be an academic or a historian, but i will point to academics and historians as examples of my contention. i was raised on basketball and well versed on the sport and its history from an early age. i grew up around the sport, with a father who had decades of experience working in high level basketball, with an encyclopedic memory (some of which he passed on to me) to boot. i don't need to have seen Earl Campbell play to know where he stands in history. i don't need to have watched Willie Mays or Hank Aaron to say that they were better than Vladimir Guerrero and Larry Walker. neither do you. we've all seen enough film, read enough stats, and heard enough stories to know what's what. if you have a specific beef or disagreement with what i've said, then feel free to rebut it. 

couldn't disagree more, try explaining Haglar, Leonard, Hearns, Duran to someone that wasn't around to see it. I don't care how many 30 for 30's they make, no fucking way in hell anyone would get it and I could go on and on with other sports.

[hookem48 4703]

just let me see some pick up games at Fonde 30 years ago and I'd be happy.

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, hookem48 said:

couldn't disagree more, try explaining Haglar, Leonard, Hearns, Duran to someone that wasn't around to see it. I don't care how many 30 for 30's they make, no fucking way in hell anyone would get it and I could go on and on with other sports.

so you don't believe in historians? nobody can know anything about anything if they didn't see it first hand? i don't think so. 

[closetohumping 17470]

On 6/4/2021 at 4:29 PM, Dr. Beeper said:

Yep. The argument that Hakeem “ate his lunch” is laughable. Hakeem was better and his team won. Hakeem was more skilled. Nobody was more dominant in their prime since Wilt than Shaq. Shaq overall had better numbers than Hakeem and more playoff success. I’d take Shaq in a heartbeat over Hakeem/Robinson/anyone as the best center since KAJ, and it isn’t particularly close. Greatest centers’ order probably goes 1. Wilt, 2. Bill, 3. KAJ/Shaq, 5. Dream, 6. Robinson

I was probably Hakeem's biggest fan/apologist back in the day.  I was pretty surprised by how well Shaq played him in the finals, but buried it under the fact that we still swept.  But Shaq was very efficient.  Then I looked up Hakeems h2h numbers vs Robinson and it wasn't near as lopsided as I thought.  Keep in mind, Hakeem did torch him in that 6 game series, but rodman himself admitted he was supposed to double Hakeem but decided not to.

[closetohumping 17470]

On 6/4/2021 at 5:23 PM, Dr. Beeper said:

He had 6 seasons after that 3rd season where he was clearly better. He definitely deteriorated more quickly than Hakeem. Largely because of style of play. 

Isn’t in Top 25?  Shaq was a pretty damn good defender. Dream was an elite shot blocker, and better than Shaq in that regard.  But that metric is really overrated for defenders, and he couldn’t ever stop Shaq. 

Hakeem wasn’t a better rebounder than Shaq. Regardless, Shaq’s strength was such a dominant force that it elevated Shaq above Hakeem, despite Hakeem being a more refined player. 

Shaq gets downplayed and ridiculed a bunch, because the perception is he was just big and nothing more. It’s a crock of shit. 

No, more like he was a lazy shit.  Even Kobe the narcissist admitted he wished he had Shaq's talent.  Motivated Shaq is unguardable.  I think everyone else kinda cancels each other out.

[d2o 1602]

On 6/4/2021 at 5:48 PM, Speedway said:

Starting five

Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Irvin Johnson, LeBron James, and Hakeem Olajuwon

not as much rebounding as you would like, but still pretty good defense.  And they would beat the snot out of anyone by intimidation alone.

 

The second five is much more thought-provoking:

Oscar Robinson, Jerry West, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

these five would take the first five to game seven in a series

 

the third five is really interesting

Pete Maravich, Julius Irving, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlin, and David Robinson

the third five may be as good in seven games as either of the first two groups

 

Shaquille O'Neal should be on here somewhere, but you didn't say whether injuries and staying healthy were criteria or not

 

Oh, and Kobe Bryant is not on the list because there are no rapists in heaven

 

 

 

 

No Magic in your top 15??   You'd really take Maravich over Magic?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, d2o said:

No Magic in your top 15??   You'd really take Maravich over Magic?

He misspelled it, but 3rd person in his starting 5?

[d2o 1602]

9 minutes ago, slorch said:

He misspelled it, but 3rd person in his starting 5?

Oh shit I thought he meant this guy:

 

 

 

 

Seriously, totally missed Magic.

[Guest]

It’s funny how some nicknames make us forget their real names. A few years back we had a thread discussing our favorite players and I listed Julius Erving.  Later on the same page, another poster commented that he could not believe Dr. J had not been mentioned. 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, slorch said:

It’s funny how some nicknames make us forget their real names. A few years back we had a thread discussing our favorite players and I listed Julius Erving.  Later on the same page, another poster commented that he could not believe Dr. J had not been mentioned. 

Exactly

[d2o 1602]

On another note, you know how great he had to be for no one to say his name could be the greatest porn name ever?    Cmon  Magic Johnson????   Its unbeatable