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2021 NBA Offseason Thread: Business as Usual? -- Trades/Free Agency/Retirements/Etc.

Patrick Bateman

By Patrick Bateman
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ztejas

ztejas 43262

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When I was in hoops shape I would have hit around 70 easily. I'm probably around 50 still but I think I'd get tired as I rarely shoot anymore and that's a weird set of muscles. I'm a good shooter but I didn't even play in high school and rarely worked on FTs. I beleive @Fastbreak - and I bet he would have kept hitting them at a 45-50% clip for awhile as you adjust your shot as you get tired. 

But... to be fair to Ben... it's a bit different in the playoffs when you're running hard against elite athletes and have cameras on you and a packed arena watching. 

That said - yeah it's pretty fucking horrendous to get paid to be an NBA PG and shoot that poorly. Big men that just throw it up there shoot better than that. 

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Mitch Cumsteen
Mitch Cumsteen

Just another genius take from you.... we should celebrate an ignorant man doubling down his ignorance and further propagate misinformation about something that would save lives.  Good for him, indeed,

Jhawk
Jhawk

You have to understand that a vaccine that was developed in 6 months could warrant some hesitancy over a vaccine that was developed 60 years ago and has had trials upon trials upon trials. You can be

Mitch Cumsteen
Mitch Cumsteen

This post has no place on the basketball board and I'm furious at myself for even replying...  but if you think that MRNA vaccines were only been developed for 6 months and that's all the research beh

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d2o

d2o 1602

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51 minutes ago, ztejas said:

When I was in hoops shape I would have hit around 70 easily. I'm probably around 50 still but I think I'd get tired as I rarely shoot anymore and that's a weird set of muscles. I'm a good shooter but I didn't even play in high school and rarely worked on FTs. I beleive @Fastbreak - and I bet he would have kept hitting them at a 45-50% clip for awhile as you adjust your shot as you get tired. 

But... to be fair to Ben... it's a bit different in the playoffs when you're running hard against elite athletes and have cameras on you and a packed arena watching. 

That said - yeah it's pretty fucking horrendous to get paid to be an NBA PG and shoot that poorly. Big men that just throw it up there shoot better than that. 

I think this point is greatly missed by the backyard shooters.    Not saying that Simmons shouldn't shoot it better but especially if a player is not in the right place mentally he could go on a pretty bad streak in playoff conditions with crowds screaming at him.   He is a 60% FT shooter on his career.     That 35% gets plastered everywhere like its how he shoots all the time.   It was a 3 wk period basically.   He just had a really bad streak at a really bad time to have a bad streak.

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15931

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Simmons reminds me of the guy who T Mac dunked on at an ABCD camp in the 90's. the story goes that there was this top 10 nationally ranked player at the camp, and McGrady, then an unknown junior in HS, got on a 1-on-1 fast break vs this guy and performed some sort of windmill poster all over him, totally emasculating the highly rated recruit. the guy who T Mac dunked on spiraled from there, went into a deep depression, and was out of basketball within like two years. it turned out that the guy had no love or passion for the sport, but had always been so tall and talented that everyone around him had always expected him to play, so he did. once the guy realized that he had no love for the sport and that all he had to do was walk away he had a huge burden lifted off of him, and he recovered from his depression and had a normal life. 

that's who Simmons reminds me of, only on a whole nother level. 6'10" and one of the most talented players in the world, but doesn't seem to care about getting any better, working on his craft, or even playing the game. if he could even shoot as as well as, say, Kerwin Roach, he'd be on the all-nba team every year. instead he seems to just be a pain in the asses of everyone around him. 

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MNLonghornFUKM

MNLonghornFUKM 8799

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i believe 35/60.  it's not an absurd number, i think there are a few here who could replicate that.  when i'm in my driveway i'm hitting right around there.  
 
derka, what did you love and let go?

It has to be 35/60 swishes because there’s no chance if it touches any part of the rim without flying off.
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MNLonghornFUKM

MNLonghornFUKM 8799

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At this point, this is on Morey and the Sixers org.    How the hell did they think it was going to turn out?   They should have traded him 3 mos ago.

Agreed. Morey caught with his pants down. No idea what the offers are with the opener tonight. You’ll get scraps to match salaries and a pick swap/pick . Anything 2-3 weeks ago is probably long gone.
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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18523

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29 minutes ago, d2o said:

At this point, this is on Morey and the Sixers org.    How the hell did they think it was going to turn out?   They should have traded him 3 mos ago.

Yeah... They fucked this up so badly. First with the impossible trade demands and now forcing him to show up or not get paid. What did they think would happen? They have completely tanked his trade value. At this point, they are going to have to give up assets to unload that $160 million contract.

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

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At this point morey is going to have to pray for a major injury or an absolutely surprise team to emerge as a contender. Maybe both?

chris Paul going down with a season ending ACL then trade him for Simmons. Maybe the suns are first in the west (haha) and are worried about CP being able to come back from injury that late in his career…

Short of a miracle to bail morey out. It seems he has overplayed his hand. That being said, I’m sure every GM in the league believes he can “fix” Ben Simmons. 

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HtownHorn

HtownHorn 14468

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On 10/14/2021 at 10:46 PM, Dutchrudder said:

Crazy idea here, but suppose the Nets have no other offers on the table for Kyrie, but the Lakers are willing to send Westbrook and 3 1st round picks to Brooklyn for him. The Durant, Harden, Westbrook trio reunite as Nets and go on to win the championship and show a glimpse of what could have been if they had better management in OKC! It would be a fun story to follow, not a completely overwhelming team to get the ring, and KD would easily be the MVP leading them to a championship that no one can question.

Doesn't California have the same mandate that New York does?

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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11113

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35 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

At this point morey is going to have to pray for a major injury or an absolutely surprise team to emerge as a contender. Maybe both?

chris Paul going down with a season ending ACL then trade him for Simmons. Maybe the suns are first in the west (haha) and are worried about CP being able to come back from injury that late in his career…

Short of a miracle to bail morey out. It seems he has overplayed his hand. That being said, I’m sure every GM in the league believes he can “fix” Ben Simmons. 

What credible offer did he decline at this point?  He's asking for a huge bounty for sure, but the only offer I'm aware of was from the Pacers and it was pretty light.  

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d2o

d2o 1602

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31 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

What credible offer did he decline at this point?  He's asking for a huge bounty for sure, but the only offer I'm aware of was from the Pacers and it was pretty light.  

I disagree.   Brogdon and Levert would have helped them immensely.    

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UpperWestside

UpperWestside 6126

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1 minute ago, d2o said:

I disagree.   Brogdon and Levert would have helped them immensely.    

I do not recall what their entire offer was, but yes those two guys would have been some really good pieces that I think would have worked well around Embiid. If someone offers some matching salaries and a couple of first round picks for Simmons they should take it and be done with it. That is really where they are at in my opinion on this. Get what you can and move forward.

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

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I’m not sure about credible offers but apparently there were 2-3 teams circling in the off-season and morey set the bar too high. When I’m buying a property and someone tells me it costs $5million then shows me a rent roll saying it should only be priced at $3million I usually tell them that I don’t want to offend them with my offer or don’t want to waste either their time or mine. 
 

Maybe that is what morey ended up with. Portland calls and says “is he available” more responds “yes. Dame, 6 first round picks, and the rights to your first born daughter.” Then the phone clicks. Fade to black. /fin

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Dutchrudder

Dutchrudder 11113

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40 minutes ago, d2o said:

I disagree.   Brogdon and Levert would have helped them immensely.    

I think the issue there is that those 2 alone cost a bit more than Simmons, so unless Philly can shed some salary, their tax burden goes up about 20 million by bringing in that extra salary. The problem with Philly is they have so much tied up in Simmons, Embiid and Harris, they don't have a lot of pieces to move in a trade. 

Brogdon would be a nice replacement for Ben, he's a better shooter by far, and can handle the point duties.  Levert is a concern due to his injury. A stress fracture in the back sounds like it could be something chronic. Not sure he's worth his full value right now, but he can't be worse than Simmons, so it's likely worth the risk.  Those 2 and a protected 1st aren't a terrible return for Simmons, but if there's any chance of getting Damian Lillard, you gotta hold out.  

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14501

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Might should posted in the regular season thread but this:

 

Did Simmons do more damage the last two days than he did in the playoffs?  During the playoffs, you could make the argument that he had the yips or something.  Now he's practicing with a cell phone in his pocket.  He straight up doesn't give a fuck,

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Patrick Bateman

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23 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

I think the issue there is that those 2 alone cost a bit more than Simmons, so unless Philly can shed some salary, their tax burden goes up about 20 million by bringing in that extra salary. The problem with Philly is they have so much tied up in Simmons, Embiid and Harris, they don't have a lot of pieces to move in a trade. 

Brogdon would be a nice replacement for Ben, he's a better shooter by far, and can handle the point duties.  Levert is a concern due to his injury. A stress fracture in the back sounds like it could be something chronic. Not sure he's worth his full value right now, but he can't be worse than Simmons, so it's likely worth the risk.  Those 2 and a protected 1st aren't a terrible return for Simmons, but if there's any chance of getting Damian Lillard, you gotta hold out.  

I don't think there's any way they're getting Lillard anymore.  Maybe CJ McCollum and something.

Brogdon is off the market after his extension.  Can't be traded.

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d2o

d2o 1602

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1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I don't think there's any way they're getting Lillard anymore.  Maybe CJ McCollum and something.

Brogdon is off the market after his extension.  Can't be traded.

Dame coming out and reiterating that has no desire to leave POR ended the even remote possibility that they could get him.    Also barring some major falling out with him and CJ I cant see them trading CJ either right now.   By all reports Dame and CJ are pretty tight.   I guess its possible if they have a terrible season/playoff finish but I cant imagine Morey is crazy enough to go through a whole season of this drama without trading him.

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

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At this point… where do you even send him? OKC? Sac? Minny? Maybe trade fat Zion for him and picks? It’s either going to take an insane contender or a team that desperately needs to change something up or lose a star. 
 

Part of me knows that GMs are going to say they don’t want him to yank his value. But another part of me says if Minny doesn’t make a move they’ll be in the same spot with KAT. Same with Zion. OKC is looking at 10+ years of shit but they have FIVE FIRST ROUND PICKS next year. Maybe they get Simmons and SGA and draft everyone with a smidge of potential to try and get another generational player to develop before Simmons is done with his contract?  There is also to “if you can get a star go get the star” mentality that keeps teams from waiting to go get someone when the market opens up. I honestly have zero clue where this is going to go unless a major injury happens in the first part of the season. 

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Patrick Bateman

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1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

At this point… where do you even send him? OKC? Sac? Minny? Maybe trade fat Zion for him and picks? It’s either going to take an insane contender or a team that desperately needs to change something up or lose a star. 
 

Part of me knows that GMs are going to say they don’t want him to yank his value. But another part of me says if Minny doesn’t make a move they’ll be in the same spot with KAT. Same with Zion. OKC is looking at 10+ years of shit but they have FIVE FIRST ROUND PICKS next year. Maybe they get Simmons and SGA and draft everyone with a smidge of potential to try and get another generational player to develop before Simmons is done with his contract?  There is also to “if you can get a star go get the star” mentality that keeps teams from waiting to go get someone when the market opens up. I honestly have zero clue where this is going to go unless a major injury happens in the first part of the season. 

Zion?  No..... Beyond being an upcoming superstar, he's a global brand which gives significance to the city and is still on his rookie contract.  Can't see the Cans being a destination with two ball dominant wings already in the fold.  

Seems Sixers are in win now mode, so they'll want a good player back ready to contribute beyond just draft capital.  

Feels like a Cleveland maybe.  Toronto is always a player in things like this.  Longer it goes on, I could see GSW giving it some serious thought.

 

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21468

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24 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Zion?  No..... Beyond being an upcoming superstar, he's a global brand which gives significance to the city and is still on his rookie contract.  Can't see the Cans being a destination with two ball dominant wings already in the fold.  

Seems Sixers are in win now mode, so they'll want a good player back ready to contribute beyond just draft capital.  

Feels like a Cleveland maybe.  Toronto is always a player in things like this.  Longer it goes on, I could see GSW giving it some serious thought.

 

GSW doesn’t like people who can’t shoot.

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Patrick Bateman

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42 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

He’s not Ben Simmons bad at shooting.  Do you think GSW would want those two on the floor together?  

They rolled with Draymond and Kelly Oubre last year...... lol.  I mean, they regularly play Draymond and Looney together with 3 shooters.  Would you rather have Looney or Simmons on the floor if Ben's head is in it?  I'm not saying it's going to happen, in fact, I've been saying I doubt it, but at some point, his value probably gets them more serious.  

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conVINCEd

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1 minute ago, Patrick Bateman said:

They rolled with Draymond and Kelly Oubre last year...... lol.  I mean, they regularly play Draymond and Looney together with 3 shooters.  Would you rather have Looney or Simmons on the floor if Ben's head is in it?  I'm not saying it's going to happen, in fact, I've been saying I doubt it, but at some point, his value probably gets them more serious.  

Looney given the contracts.  Trading Draymond for him would be sort of interesting., as they have a somewhat similar skill set and Simmons is younger, but I don’t think they would move Draymond for a roll of the dice.  I just don’t know how you could trust Simmons at this point, and I’m not giving up real assets for somebody who just may not give a fuck anymore.  I also don’t think there is any real way you can determine if he still gives a fuck prior to pulling the trigger.

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Jhawk

Jhawk 1075

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That’s the thing… the more Simmons acts like he is around the team the more the pre-draft questions about his work ethic seem to be true. I know GMs are trying to yank his value with their comments but I feel like the longer Simmons doesn’t participate the more his rumored reputation becomes reality. 
 

With that, I wonder what the owners are going to want in the next CBA to prevent this stuff from happening again. It isn’t a major problem but it has the potential to be and this is a hell of a bargaining chip for the owners, especially with the new media money coming in just a year later. The NBPA can’t like the position they are being put in right now between vaccines and trade demands. I’m actually kind of shocked they haven’t stepped in to try and help find solutions for Simmons and philly. I don’t know what they could do but they basically shut Simmons down on the money thing and then have been silent since. 

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3903

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1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Looney given the contracts.  Trading Draymond for him would be sort of interesting., as they have a somewhat similar skill set and Simmons is younger, but I don’t think they would move Draymond for a roll of the dice.  I just don’t know how you could trust Simmons at this point, and I’m not giving up real assets for somebody who just may not give a fuck anymore.  I also don’t think there is any real way you can determine if he still gives a fuck prior to pulling the trigger.

That wasn't the question.  It was who would you rather have on the floor?  Simmons is clearly the better and more versatile defender.  They actually shoot about the same and you have to really hand it to the Warriors, they seemed to have built a great culture for guys to come in and find their roles and embrace the game.  Javale McGee says going to Golden State changed his life. 

Now, if you want to talk trade value, different conversation.  Morey always seems to like to play poker, even to the detriment of his own team, so maybe he's willing to just roll with it until a major injury leverages a team to make a more substantial bid.  I would imagine it would be Wiggins, Kuminga and pick(s) for Simmons and another guy.  Debate away if that package is worth it.  I'm not a Wiggins guy FTR.....

The question was would the Warriors play with two non-shooters like Draymond and Simmons on the floor at the same time, and I would imagine they would, as Simmons and Dray's defense would cover up a lot of mistakes.  Who would be the 5th guy?  Porter?  Poole?  Iggy?  aggie probably knows.

 

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21468

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3 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

That wasn't the question.  It was who would you rather have on the floor?  Simmons is clearly the better and more versatile defender.  They actually shoot about the same and you have to really hand it to the Warriors, they seemed to have built a great culture for guys to come in and find their roles and embrace the game.  Javale McGee says going to Golden State changed his life. 

Now, if you want to talk trade value, different conversation.  Morey always seems to like to play poker, even to the detriment of his own team, so maybe he's willing to just roll with it until a major injury leverages a team to make a more substantial bid.  I would imagine it would be Wiggins, Kuminga and pick(s) for Simmons and another guy.  Debate away if that package is worth it.  I'm not a Wiggins guy FTR.....

The question was would the Warriors play with two non-shooters like Draymond and Simmons on the floor at the same time, and I would imagine they would, as Simmons and Dray's defense would cover up a lot of mistakes.  Who would be the 5th guy?  Porter?  Poole?  Iggy?  aggie probably knows.

 

Probably Poole to start the game and Iggy to finish if there’s anything left in his tank.  I still think there is no way GSW is serious about it until Philly is willing put Simmons on the clearance aisle, and once he’s on the clearance aisle I’m not sure you can make the money work.  

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d2o

d2o 1602

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8 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Probably Poole to start the game and Iggy to finish if there’s anything left in his tank.  I still think there is no way GSW is serious about it until Philly is willing put Simmons on the clearance aisle, and once he’s on the clearance aisle I’m not sure you can make the money work.  

They have Wggins.   Add pretty much any other player to him and the money works.   Its not that hard to get to the number needed.

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d2o

d2o 1602

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11 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I think Wiggins is more valuable than Simmons right now.  And that’s a weird thing to say.

Yeah, the clowning of Simmons has gotten way out of hand.   Wiggins has never in his life been remotely close to an all-defensive team let alone 1st team and top 3 in DPOY voting.

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3903

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8 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Are we sure that Simmons wants to play basketball? 

At this time last year, were we sure Harden wanted to play basketball?  I think it's obvious Simmons has attitude and focus issues, but he's what?  23 years old and literally can't do anything else.  He'll ball in the right situation.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21468

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1 minute ago, Patrick Bateman said:

At this time last year, were we sure Harden wanted to play basketball?  I think it's obvious Simmons has attitude and focus issues, but he's what?  23 years old and literally can't do anything else.  He'll ball in the right situation.

This feels a little different than Harden to me.  Can’t really put my finger on why it feels different, but it does.  

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ztejas

ztejas 43262

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Harden didn't want to play in Houston (for good reason). I'm not sure anyone was questioning whether he wanted to play BASKETBALL or not - he was clearly trying to force a trade. 

Harden is also a documented gym rat and his game proves it. The knocks on him are he likes partying and hasn't always been in the best shape (and some rough playoff exits). I've never questioned Harden's drive to want to get better or his love of basketball. He's also typically compared against the best players in the league - and some of the greatest players ever. Simmons is nowhere near either of those marks. They're a totally different caliber of player and always have been.

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