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Rich people don't pay much in taxes (now in CR) - ProPublica

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sheeeit

sheeeit 129

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

When I was young and dumb I would have agreed with your last paragraph so I can’t really criticize since I don’t know you. But I can say now that I’m older and wiser that last paragraph is completely 100 percent wrong. 

Lets discuss it then.  What ways do you think a poor white kid born in 2021 has more advantages than a poor black kid born in 2021?

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DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt
DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt

Yeah sure thing I’ll do that the next time I’m at a john Mackey speech in Texas. In the meantime how about you tell me the story, asshole.

Brothahorn
Brothahorn

For someone always says they don't mind paying more. And would willingly pay more, he sure goes out of his way to make sure it doesn't happen.

hornbri
hornbri

That article is pretty misleading, we don't have wealth tax we have a income tax. Using unrealized gains to then try and illustrate a low tax rate is not really fair. I live in Austin, do I

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27-25

27-25 2040

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Posted

Norway has public data on the income and taxes paid by its citizens.  From the article:

One nice feature of tax transparency is that it discourages tax evasion.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/07/in-norway-everyones-income-is-public-and-so-is-tax-paid/242386/

Take it for what it's worth.  But other's have tried this, and other, proposals that are discussed here.  I'll bet there's not an idea in this thread that has not been tried by someone, somewhere at some time.  I would love to see some data on it.

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38127

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31 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

Lets discuss it then.  What ways do you think a poor white kid born in 2021 has more advantages than a poor black kid born in 2021?

Blacks are more likely to be killed by police

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Yale-Black-people-disproportionately-15682869.php

less likely to be approved for loans

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ginaheeb/2021/04/15/businesses-owned-by-blacks-latinos-less-than-half-as-likely-to-be-approved-for-loans-than-whites-fed-says/?sh=3edd71e353da
 

Earn less than whites 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/

Votes suppressed 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/us/politics/georgia-black-voters.html

 

 

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Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand

Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13550

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37 minutes ago, 27-25 said:

Norway has public data on the income and taxes paid by its citizens.  From the article:

One nice feature of tax transparency is that it discourages tax evasion.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/07/in-norway-everyones-income-is-public-and-so-is-tax-paid/242386/

Take it for what it's worth.  But other's have tried this, and other, proposals that are discussed here.  I'll bet there's not an idea in this thread that has not been tried by someone, somewhere at some time.  I would love to see some data on it.

Goddamn it's depressing reading a decade-old article on the radical notion of transparency that's SOP elsewhere in the democratic world.

 

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UncleSonny

UncleSonny 6562

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15 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Blacks are more likely to be killed by police

https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/Yale-Black-people-disproportionately-15682869.php

less likely to be approved for loans

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ginaheeb/2021/04/15/businesses-owned-by-blacks-latinos-less-than-half-as-likely-to-be-approved-for-loans-than-whites-fed-says/?sh=3edd71e353da
 

Earn less than whites 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/

Votes suppressed 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/us/politics/georgia-black-voters.html

 

 

And the numbers bear it out. No data for people born in 2021 (for obvious reasons) but among children born on the 60s to poverty, a black child was twice as likely as a white child to also be poor as an adult:

image.png.d5bf00f1657226ec1cb51b5229a7ae8c.png
 

https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/two-american-experiences-racial-divide-poverty

All of these adults came of age decades after the Civil Rights movement, so if it was “solved” you would think you would see a shift in the numbers by then. 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9935

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5 hours ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Mexico is a great example of what happens when you have the extremely rich and the extemely poor living in the same society and is the destination our trajectory is taking us. 

More iguana for Bezos, I suppose.

 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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3 hours ago, sheeeit said:

Lets discuss it then.  What ways do you think a poor white kid born in 2021 has more advantages than a poor black kid born in 2021?

Subsequent posters told the story far better than I would have.

I do civil litigation for a living. So I’m paid to evaluate the worth of a particular case. In fact how much i make depends on that.

If I represent a black plaintiff, I inherently know based on experience that the verdict in his/her favor is likely to be a lot less than if they were white, and the chances of losing are even greater. Depends on the venue of course but that’s true 95 percent of the time. Kind of like representing a gay guy in midland or ector county.  That’s reality. Deny it if you want. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31300

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6 hours ago, Brew said:

I’m 42, worked my way up from intern to the #1 spot.  It didn’t make any difference to me what the guy beside me was making. I didn’t measure myself against him, I measured myself on a promotion standpoint and how quickly I moved up the ladder and against the guys at the top. We publish averages and other numbers on partner comp to show what is available, seeing the exact number Jane makes beside them doesn’t seem like it promotes that much drive.

Yeah, at least in professional services, it's pretty easy to figure out how to "compete" with your peers and achieve a better salary, or promotion, or partnership or whatever your goal may be.  You don't need to know what that other guy makes.  Do better work.  Do more of it.  Do it more efficiently.  Bring in business.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31300

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 27-25 said:

Norway has public data on the income and taxes paid by its citizens.  From the article:

One nice feature of tax transparency is that it discourages tax evasion.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/07/in-norway-everyones-income-is-public-and-so-is-tax-paid/242386/

Take it for what it's worth.  But other's have tried this, and other, proposals that are discussed here.  I'll bet there's not an idea in this thread that has not been tried by someone, somewhere at some time.  I would love to see some data on it.

That's a fantastic example of how Scandinavian people generally trust one another.

We could never do that.  It wouldn't just be rich v. poor, it would be thunderdome.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Brew

Brew 3049

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Posted
5 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

As far as loopholes go, I wouldn't go so far as to say avoiding ever paying taxes, but rather from avoiding paying taxes on the bulk of their true assets. I'm mainly referring to what we discussed before on that particular issue. Although, I think you underplay the number of people that can take advantage. For instance, I know certain avoidance strategies are used by a large percentage of the top end of the Plaintiff's bar. These are very successful attorneys, but not billionaires by any stretch.  In our current system, the upper middle class and/or the lower end of the upper class probably bear the highest tax burden as a percentage of their overall wealth. 

At any rate, I feel like you're misconstruing what I'm saying and taking it personally. If you actually look at what I've bolded above, that is exactly what I've been proposing. I've just pointed out that once you start taxing unrealized gains, you aren't really operating with an income tax system anymore, but rather an overall property/wealth tax. And that's exactly what I think we should do.  

I’m circling back to this just to provide clarification. I don’t disagree with your overall premise, I disagree with your constant use of the term loophole. It is not a loophole that causes people not to pay tax on wealth and unearned income, it is the system as it stands currently. A loophole by definition is finding something in the system that allows you a way to not pay tax on income of which those specific items aren't part of defined income in the current system. No one pays tax on wealth outside of the wealth that exists in real property at this point.

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Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand

Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13550

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3 hours ago, Bevo said:

The numbers don't show that poverty or wealth disparity is the driving force unfortunately. Belgium has the highest kidnapping rate followed by Canada. 

Can you provide a link please? This is what I got.

"This statistic displays the number of kidnappings per 100,000 people in Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg in 2017. The statistic shows that Belgium had the highest kidnapping rate in 2017, with a rate of 10.3 kidnappings per 100,000 people."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1036705/kidnapping-rate-in-the-benelux-by-country/

 

Capture+_2021-06-11-21-16-39.png

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Brew

Brew 3049

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3 hours ago, sheeeit said:

Lets discuss it then.  What ways do you think a poor white kid born in 2021 has more advantages than a poor black kid born in 2021?

There are plenty, it may look different today than it did 50 years ago but it is still there. There is no point in arguing that side as it’s a loser from the start.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17449

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19 minutes ago, Brew said:

I’m circling back to this just to provide clarification. I don’t disagree with your overall premise, I disagree with your constant use of the term loophole. It is not a loophole that causes people not to pay tax on wealth and unearned income, it is the system as it stands currently. A loophole by definition is finding something in the system that allows you a way to not pay tax on income of which those specific items aren't part of defined income in the current system. No one pays tax on wealth outside of the wealth that exists in real property at this point.

I agree with this. For me loopholes refers to the ability to avoid recognizing income at all, which, as has been discussed, is primarily the playground of the super rich (e.g., very low interest lines of credit due to invested assets with a bank). 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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28 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

White man’s burden Lloyd

Here is the code. Jack is the white man. The caretaker.  Grady is the English man.  He’s always been there. The former caretaker pre America. The hotel is modern America itself, completed in the year Oklahoma became a state, decorated with dead native Americans. The ghosts who never talk to jack are the owners of America. The ghosts who do talk to jack like the bartender, maitre de and the butler are just like jack, handling and taking care of the hotel on behalf of the owners. Wendy is the American woman who is part Native American. Halloran is the black man, killed by jack on behalf of the owners and Danny is America’s great potential, with a great talent, ruined by the owners themselves in room 237, which they get Wendy to blame on jack. The river of blood is the dead native Americans. 

Watch the movie again with those codes in mind.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11556

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20 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Here is the code. Jack is the white man. The caretaker.  Grady is the English man.  He’s always been there. The former caretaker pre America. The hotel is modern America itself, completed in the year Oklahoma became a state, decorated with dead native Americans. The ghosts who never talk to jack are the owners of America. The ghosts who do talk to jack like the bartender, maitre de and the butler are just like jack, handling and taking care of the hotel on behalf of the owners. Wendy is the American woman who is part Native American. Halloran is the black man, killed by jack on behalf of the owners and Danny is America’s great potential, with a great talent, ruined by the owners themselves in room 237, which they get Wendy to blame on jack. The river of blood is the dead native Americans. 

Watch the movie again with those codes in mind.

 

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9935

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51 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Here is the code. Jack is the white man. The caretaker.  Grady is the English man.  He’s always been there. The former caretaker pre America. The hotel is modern America itself, completed in the year Oklahoma became a state, decorated with dead native Americans. The ghosts who never talk to jack are the owners of America. The ghosts who do talk to jack like the bartender, maitre de and the butler are just like jack, handling and taking care of the hotel on behalf of the owners. Wendy is the American woman who is part Native American. Halloran is the black man, killed by jack on behalf of the owners and Danny is America’s great potential, with a great talent, ruined by the owners themselves in room 237, which they get Wendy to blame on jack. The river of blood is the dead native Americans. 

Watch the movie again with those codes in mind.

That's commie talk.

Capt. Dr. Proff. Dummy, phd on Twitter: "I think thats literally the point of his tweet. Go back ...

 

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Continental Op

Continental Op 3934

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3 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Kubrick was a genius and the shining is his best work in my opinion. Kubrick loved codes and speaking in them. The movie is about America. 

Kubrick is a genius but The Shining is his one movie that wasn't that great.  Fight me in Movies & TV if you want. 

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deadshank

deadshank 24651

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7 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Here is the code. Jack is the white man. The caretaker.  Grady is the English man.  He’s always been there. The former caretaker pre America. The hotel is modern America itself, completed in the year Oklahoma became a state, decorated with dead native Americans. The ghosts who never talk to jack are the owners of America. The ghosts who do talk to jack like the bartender, maitre de and the butler are just like jack, handling and taking care of the hotel on behalf of the owners. Wendy is the American woman who is part Native American. Halloran is the black man, killed by jack on behalf of the owners and Danny is America’s great potential, with a great talent, ruined by the owners themselves in room 237, which they get Wendy to blame on jack. The river of blood is the dead native Americans. 

Watch the movie again with those codes in mind.

Don’t Movies & TV the CR!!!!

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softlynow

softlynow 1784

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7 hours ago, Continental Op said:

Kubrick is a genius but The Shining is his one movie that wasn't that great.  Fight me in Movies & TV if you want. 

Or we could just fight Stephen King on twitter. King may have said almost exactly what you said in some of his other books (I haven't read but a few of his works), but he has a protagonist ponder that thought in The Outsider.

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Bateshorn

Bateshorn 9907

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Continental Op said:

Kubrick is a genius but The Shining is his one movie that wasn't that great.  Fight me in Movies & TV if you want. 

I will fucking die on the hill of it’s a terrible adaptation of the novel, but still a great movie. The book is one of the underrated great American novels, a terrifying and thoughtful mediation on isolation, alcoholism, and the legacy of family violence.  The movie is…not that.
 

Softly beat me to it. 

Edited by Bateshorn
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deadshank

deadshank 24651

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11 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Here is the code. Jack is the white man. The caretaker.  Grady is the English man.  He’s always been there. The former caretaker pre America. The hotel is modern America itself, completed in the year Oklahoma became a state, decorated with dead native Americans. The ghosts who never talk to jack are the owners of America. The ghosts who do talk to jack like the bartender, maitre de and the butler are just like jack, handling and taking care of the hotel on behalf of the owners. Wendy is the American woman who is part Native American. Halloran is the black man, killed by jack on behalf of the owners and Danny is America’s great potential, with a great talent, ruined by the owners themselves in room 237, which they get Wendy to blame on jack. The river of blood is the dead native Americans. 

Watch the movie again with those codes in mind.

I once had a girlfriend that thought Midnight Cowboy was going to be a John Wayne styled western.  
 

She was wrong just like you.  
 

 

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4636

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38 minutes ago, deadshank said:

I once had a girlfriend that thought Midnight Cowboy was going to be a John Wayne styled western.  
 

She was wrong just like you.  
 

 

Had a buddy who’s favorite movie was Blazing Saddles. Seems like for years he’d tell me how great this western was.  So in my mind I’m thinking Yuma, Josey Wales, GBU, Tombstone.   Got a copy of it and yeah...dock myself a days pay for being a dumbass.  

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Nivek

Nivek 16863

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Posted
This post is kind of the crux of the disagreement on things like income, wealth, taxes etc.  
You seem to think that if a person works for a firm and thinks they should make more money that it is the fault of the firm for not paying them more.  I could not disagree more and the real world and human nature and a capitalistic system could not disagree more.  If a person thinks that they are under paid in their job then they should ask for more.  If they do not get it, then they should leave and go somewhere where they can make more or at least have the opportunity to make more.  Because if they just stay where they are and complain, then they are, in fact, whiners.
If a person thinks they deserve more in salary from their current firm but can not find any other firm to pay them more then, by definition, they are making what they are worth.  If I think my house is worth $1M and I put it up for sale and only get offers of $750K then it is worth $750K.
And if you a person still thinks they are under paid then they should start their own firm.  

That is not what I said at all.

And it is so sophomoric as to not warrant a reply.

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Nivek

Nivek 16863

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Posted

Other than that? /sarcasm
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softlynow

softlynow 1784

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6 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Back to topic,

what system will have no loopholes and tax people on wealth so no one does the get paid in stock options shit?

graduated wealth tax? 
 

tax a cumulative income + property + wealth?

5 tax brackets with no deductions, credits, adjustments … nothing (income levels and rates for examples sake only):

$0-$25,000: 0%
$25,001-$75,000: 18%
$75,001-$200,000: 23%
$200,001-$400,000: 27%
$400,001-$1,000,000: 34%
$1,000,001+: 40%

No cap gains pref rate, no tax-advantaged accounts, no carry forward losses,etc and the same goes for corporate taxes.

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6668

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23 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's a fantastic example of how Scandinavian people generally trust one another.

We could never do that.  It wouldn't just be rich v. poor, it would be thunderdome.

My Norwegian coworker has lived and worked here in Austin for 25 years and this is still the thing he brings up when people ask him what he finds strangest in America vs. his home country.

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38127

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49 minutes ago, softlynow said:

5 tax brackets with no deductions, credits, adjustments … nothing (income levels and rates for examples sake only):

$0-$25,000: 0%
$25,001-$75,000: 18%
$75,001-$200,000: 23%
$200,001-$400,000: 27%
$400,001-$1,000,000: 34%
$1,000,001+: 40%

No cap gains pref rate, no tax-advantaged accounts, no carry forward losses,etc and the same goes for corporate taxes.

what about people who take a nominal salary and get paid in stock and other shit that won't get taxed?

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Disco Strangler

Disco Strangler 1865

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7 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

My Norwegian coworker has lived and worked here in Austin for 25 years and this is still the thing he brings up when people ask him what he finds strangest in America vs. his home country.

I’m not a Norway expert, but I did watch both seasons of Ragnarok (in the same way Euros are experts on US culture based on watching every episode of Dallas and Friends).  Norway seems non-diverse in terms of race, class, career fields and religion.  They trust each other because the are a country made up of clones of each other.  

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29265

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2 hours ago, softlynow said:

5 tax brackets with no deductions, credits, adjustments … nothing (income levels and rates for examples sake only):

$0-$25,000: 0%
$25,001-$75,000: 18%
$75,001-$200,000: 23%
$200,001-$400,000: 27%
$400,001-$1,000,000: 34%
$1,000,001+: 40%

No cap gains pref rate, no tax-advantaged accounts, no carry forward losses,etc and the same goes for corporate taxes.

There's no reason not to have at least 15 tax brackets. Hell, with modern computers we could impose an income tax that increases by fractions of a percent for every dollar earned. It's absurd that people that make $1 million per year aren't taxed more, but it's also absurd not to tax income over $5 million, $50 million, and $100 million even more.

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softlynow

softlynow 1784

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Posted
2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

There's no reason not to have at least 15 tax brackets. Hell, with modern computers we could impose an income tax that increases by fractions of a percent for every dollar earned. It's absurd that people that make $1 million per year aren't taxed more, but it's also absurd not to tax income over $5 million, $50 million, and $100 million even more.

Works for me. 

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