Fascism, Autocracy, Oligarchy Clearinghouse

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

Maybe I'm the naive one, but I'm not too worried.  I tend to look at things now through the lens of a longer period of time.  Sure, when you view this moment or even the last 4+ years as a moment, shit seems pretty bad.  I don't have to list all the shit.  Some of it is very troubling and scary.  Most of it I cannot believe actually happened.

Broad trends in politics and society happen more slowly that we can perceive them.  We are used to perceiving things quickly and reacting quickly.  I think that particular factor has been exacerbated by the internet and 24-hour "news" cycle, which are still relatively recent phenomena.  We're constantly bombarded by fresh content. As a society, we haven't learned how to deal with that yet. Media companies are good at snagging attention, if even for just a few seconds at a time.  So while we have a much larger fascist contingent in our country than I am comfortable with, I think it's a blip.  It's the effect of a confluence of unusual circumstances - black president backlash, wage inequality, internet still growing and changing, media fighting for market share, shrinking white majority feeling threatened, etc.  These conditions are going to change and fade.  New conditions will come into being.  Everything will change...slowly.  Maybe for the better; maybe for the worse.  Personally, I don't see this brand of Republicanism lasting much longer.  I think the Tea Party-->Trumpist version of R is not sustainable.  Outright lying to people, spouting ever more outlandish and ridiculous conspiracy theories, being evil - none of that is a winning political strategy long-term.  I say this in spite of the fact that it was a winning political strategy in the very recent past.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

4 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

 So while we have a much larger fascist contingent in our country than I am comfortable with, I think it's a blip. 

The issue with this particular 'blip' is that a lot of people can die or be harmed before it burns up.

The trend is growing worldwide and that is more than a little alarming.

I agree that long term projections may favor your outlook, but I'm not as optimistic for the near coming years nor am I as optimistic for certain 'outgroups' and the way they may be treated. The push for a white Christian nationalist America is not going away any time soon.

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

16 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

The issue with this particular 'blip' is that a lot of people can die or be harmed before it burns up.

The trend is growing worldwide and that is more than a little alarming.

I agree that long term projections may favor your outlook, but I'm not as optimistic for the near coming years nor am I as optimistic for certain 'outgroups' and the way they may be treated. The push for a white Christian nationalist America is not going away any time soon.

People will die or be harmed regardless.  I have zero data on this, but if we could calculate deaths and violence derived from a political movement, I don't think this particular movement has actually caused that much death and violence, relatively speaking.  I see them as a bunch of all-talk pussies; all hat and no cattle.  I think it's fun/feels good to rally on the internet and in an echo chamber, but when it comes down to actually doing shit, most know deep down that a lot of what they claim to believe is bullshit and not worth acting on and getting killed or going to prison (all of the Jan. 6th dumbfucks nothwithstanding).  The potential is there, sure, but I think Jan. 6th was the peak and it will slowly fade from there.

[wildcat09 29349]

Maybe people who couldn't comprehend the possibility of 1/6 before it happened should sit this one out.

[BrickHorn 18218]

35 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Maybe people who couldn't comprehend the possibility of 1/6 before it happened should sit this one out.

Exactly. We came *this* close to an authoritarian takeover of the United States that day. That it ultimately failed is not evidence that there was no risk or that the risk was not substantial. January 6 demonstrates just how real the threat is; GOP efforts to whitewash it show that the threat remains and is growing. 

Fuck all the gaslighters who argue otherwise. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

2 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Exactly. We came *this* close to an authoritarian takeover of the United States that day. That it ultimately failed is not evidence that there was no risk or that the risk was not substantial. January 6 demonstrates just how real the threat is; GOP efforts to whitewash it show that the threat remains and is growing. 

Fuck all the gaslighters who argue otherwise. 

The intel agencies for our allies reported it to their home countries as a coup attempt. I'd say they were accurate.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

I don’t think it can be overstated how norm-shattering it was to have a sitting POTUS refuse to recognize the results of an election and claim without basis that he won. I am not one to underplay the seriousness of 1/6 bit ultimately (aside from the tragic deaths of capitol police) the participants suffered the most. It was a stupid display from stupid and manipulated people that was not going to succeed, but could have caused much more loss of life and damage. They still should all be in prison. 
 

The norm shattering by DJT is much more dangerous. His bride failed, first of all, because our institutions were just strong enough to bend but not break. Second, he was really terrible at plotting a coup. He alienated and disgusted everyone who was even remotely competent inside the “power agencies” and attacked instead of using flattery and the lure of influence and power. He put together a true coalition of clowns and cartoon villains.

But the next populist will not be so incompetent and our institutions are not so strong….

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

43 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But the next populist will not be so incompetent and our institutions are not so strong….

As long as Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Seb Gorka, Chris Miller, Kash Patel, Mike Flynn, Darren Beattie, and the money behind them (Murdoch, Koch, Mercer, et al) are still walking around doing what they do, it's a certainty. They are bruised but not broken. Trump didn't deliver for them, but they care less about the man than the power.

[gmr548 16576]

It’s the default state of human governance. The post-WWII order in the west is the exception, not the rule.

America has only really attempted being a legitimate democracy since the civil rights movement. It was founded as an oligarchy of landowning white men and moved very slowly to expand representation.

[Willfully Horn 8008]

On 6/10/2021 at 6:17 PM, Fudge Nuggets said:

What are these rejection letters I hear people speaking about?

They typically read like this:

”We have read your manuscript with boundless delight. If we were to publish your paper, it would be impossible for us to publish any work of lower standard. And as it is unthinkable that in the next thousand years we shall see its equal, we are, to our regret, compelled to return your divine composition, and to beg you a thousand times to overlook our short sight and timidity.””

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

This thread, ugh 

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

12 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This thread, ugh 

 

Duh.  The GQP doesn't govern, it rules.  And ruling just means "have power, and keep it."  It's their sole purpose for existence, and the results speak for themselves.

Signed, someone else who lives in a rapidly failing state, and literally had to take significant steps to keep himself and some of his neighbors alive this winter when the state failed.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

The comment about them getting the judge to change the law about residency was just spot on brand perfect for them.

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

3 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Exactly. We came *this* close to an authoritarian takeover of the United States that day. That it ultimately failed is not evidence that there was no risk or that the risk was not substantial. January 6 demonstrates just how real the threat is; GOP efforts to whitewash it show that the threat remains and is growing. 

Fuck all the gaslighters who argue otherwise. 

No we didn't.  10,000 or so people basically trespassed and vandalized the capitol building. It was shocking that Americans would behave that way, but it was effectively a meaningless exercise.  They didn't even disrupt congressional business going on in the same building in any meaningful way.  Delayed it a few hours.  That's it. They never got close to actually seizing power.  The real, actual power was never remotely threatened.  Congress was still intact.  The actual, duly elected president was in the White House.  The Supreme Court was intact.  The Pentagon was unaffected. The entire bureaucracy was still answering to the right people. This "movement" didn't have the numbers, they didn't have the right people in the right places to even get close to an actual coup.  This was a cartoon of a coup, nothing more.

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

4 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

No we didn't.  10,000 or so people basically trespassed and vandalized the capitol building. It was shocking that Americans would behave that way, but it was effectively a meaningless exercise.  They didn't even disrupt congressional business going on in the same building in any meaningful way.  Delayed it a few hours.  That's it. They never got close to actually seizing power.  The real, actual power was never remotely threatened.  Congress was still intact.  The actual, duly elected president was in the White House.  The Supreme Court was intact.  The Pentagon was unaffected. The entire bureaucracy was still answering to the right people. This "movement" didn't have the numbers, they didn't have the right people in the right places to even get close to an actual coup.  This was a cartoon of a coup, nothing more.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33868]

2 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

No we didn't.  10,000 or so people basically trespassed and vandalized the capitol building. It was shocking that Americans would behave that way, but it was effectively a meaningless exercise.  They didn't even disrupt congressional business going on in the same building in any meaningful way.  Delayed it a few hours.  That's it. They never got close to actually seizing power.  The real, actual power was never remotely threatened.  Congress was still intact.  The actual, duly elected president was in the White House.  The Supreme Court was intact.  The Pentagon was unaffected. The entire bureaucracy was still answering to the right people. This "movement" didn't have the numbers, they didn't have the right people in the right places to even get close to an actual coup.  This was a cartoon of a coup, nothing more.

so no harm, no foul, then? I suppose you'll also tell me those that conspired to kidnap and then ransom (and by some accounts murder) the Michigan governor were just petty criminals because they didn't succeed? Get the fuck outta here with that shit. What happened on January 6th should alarm every American. Because of your casual stance I am now very suspect of where your loyalties lie

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

144 police officers injured, some with brain damage, and a few subsequent suicides. Literally the next step here is political assassinations. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

9 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

 but it was effectively a meaningless exercise. 

I don't think I have a response for that belief other than

That's where we're going to be looking in the rearview mirror.

[wildcat09 29349]

I'm very curious, for those of you who don't think American democracy was close to dying on 1/6: let's imagine that instead of members of Congress being escorted to safety, members of the mob captured and executed Democratic House and Senate leadership and most other Democratic Reps and Senators and Congress did not reconvene to certify the electoral votes on the 6th. What do you think would've come next?

Edited June 24, 2021 by wildcat09

[Willfully Horn 8008]

10 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

it was effectively a meaningless exercise

I disagree as the peaceful transfer of power was really nice (while it lasted.)

When I think about how my kids, just beginning their adult lives, might be affected, I get ragey.

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

No, no, no, no, no.  It's not like there are only two extreme views 1/6 - "HORRIBAD, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!" or "nothing to see here."  I was horrified by it, scared and extremely concerned by the whole Trumpist/fascist movement, especially including what happened on 1/6.  I just don't think we actually got close to a government takeover.  It's important to take it all seriously; it's also important to understand it for what it actually was.

[Ojo Rojo 1963]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm very curious, for those of you who don't think American democracy was close to dying on 1/6: let's imagine that instead of members of Congress being escorted to safety, members of the mob captured and executed Democratic House and Senate leadership and most other Democratic Reps and Senators and Congress did not reconvene to certify the electoral votes on the 6th. What do you think would've come next?

I'm not an expert on American government, but I'm pretty sure the answer is not that Joe Biden would have been escorted out of the White House and Donald Trump back in.

We can do "what ifs" all day.  What if DJT had refused to leave the WH?  What if Raffensberger had chosen to whore out to DJT and "found" 11,000 votes in Georgia?  Those what ifs didn't happen, just like yours didn't.  The one dumb bitch who actually breached an area where there were members of Congress instantly found out even before she made it through the door.  I'm not saying we don't want to keep a close eye on all of this shit and actively fight it with everything we've got.  I just think it's an overreaction and a lack of faith in the strength and foundation of our democracy and, frankly, a lack of understanding of how our government works to think that 1/6 almost took it all down.

[BrickHorn 18218]

6 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

No, no, no, no, no.  It's not like there are only two extreme views 1/6 - "HORRIBAD, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!" or "nothing to see here."  I was horrified by it, scared and extremely concerned by the whole Trumpist/fascist movement, especially including what happened on 1/6.  I just don't think we actually got close to a government takeover.  It's important to take it all seriously; it's also important to understand it for what it actually was.

What it was: a demo. A training run. January 6 demonstrated that with a little luck, even a disorganized mob of idiots could have decapitated the legislative branch. The next mob won’t be so disorganized and GOP insiders will be ready to assist rather than shitting themselves in shocked terror. 

None of that is encouraging. So cheery posts celebrating the January 6 coup’s ultimate failure are counterproductive horseshit at best.

[Brisketexan 105095]

7 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

What it was: a demo. A training run. January 6 demonstrated that with a little luck, even a disorganized mob of idiots could have decapitated the legislative branch. The next mob won’t be so disorganized and GOP insiders will be ready to assist rather than shitting themselves in shocked terror. 

None of that is encouraging. So cheery posts celebrating the January 6 coup’s ultimate failure are counterproductive horseshit at best.

This.  When Boebert and MTG will be texting with the attackers, telling them exactly where to go to take out their targets, you'll understand how a fifth column plays into this shit.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This.  When Boebert and MTG will be texting with the attackers, telling them exactly where to go to take out their targets, you'll understand how a fifth column plays into this shit.

That is how it sometimes works out in history--setting aside Italy and Germany--the fascists (through violence and intimidation) enable the conservatives to retain or gain power. The GOP has seen this as a viable option and are using this playbook for as long as they can. The dark money support  is betting that the fascists will be cast aside once the dust has settled and the GOP will legally (sort of--through disenfranchising and other techniques) control everything. A little more like Orban's Hungary w/o the rule by decree and more like what is happening in Texas (or Missouri) with an ineffective Democratic Party and the GOP doing whatever they wish.

[Brisketexan 105095]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

That is how it sometimes works out in history--setting aside Italy and Germany--the fascists (through violence and intimidation) enable the conservatives to retain or gain power. The GOP has seen this as a viable option and are using this playbook for as long as they can. The dark money support  is betting that the fascists will be cast aside once the dust has settled and the GOP will legally (sort of--through disenfranchising and other techniques) control everything. A little more like Orban's Hungary w/o the rule by decree and more like what is happening in Texas (or Missouri) with an ineffective Democratic Party and the GOP doing whatever they wish.

That's absolutely the play.   Problem is, once you marry a fascist, then your household is fascist.  Fascists are the turd in the political punch bowl.  Nobody believes you when you say that the rest of the punch is fine.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That's absolutely the play.   Problem is, once you marry a fascist, then your household is fascist.  Fascists are the turd in the political punch bowl.  Nobody believes you when you say that the rest of the punch is fine.

It also ignores the unscripted play which is the fascists may have their own idea of who they'd like to lead them. Just as you suggest, once the knot is tied, sometimes it's hard to get the divorce without a lot of mess. The GOP is no stranger to domestic violence, they just aren't used to being the recipients of it.

I see that as less likely because the GOP, if able to gain power, will have the might of the institution on their side. Regardless, this is not in a good place right now.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Aaron Rupar's comment along with some of the other information being revealed (and already posted in other threads) deserves a place in this specific thread for a couple of reasons, IMO.

First, sure, Trump is a crazy bugger, an unhinged narcissist who loves displays of brutality, violence, etc--as Ruth Ben-Ghiat would say, a Strongman (differentiated from a strong man which is completely different). But fortunately, there was at least one adult in the room. It wasn't Stephen Miller, who seemed to be egging/encouraging the President (and possibly others in the room) until General Milley put the brakes on. It's surreal to think we should shrug this off or normalize it as just Trump being Trump because knowing that possibility--just shoot them--was even broached is a horrific warning flag. Milley was a guardrail. At that time, Chris Miller had not yet been promoted to Acting Secretary of Defense (11/20-1/21) but prior to his appointment he was the ASD and had a background in counterterrorism. What was his mindset? I'm pretty sure he was present, given one of his job duties was combating terrorism. Regardless of the official designation of antifa or BLM protestors, it was obvious that the Administration saw the protests as damaging to both Trump's re-election and 'the state.'  Who else was there and what was the mood if one read the room, so to speak?

Second, the US has perpetrated some abhorrent acts worldwide and domestically, but this action, I believe, would have been one of the more open and upfront state actions against citizens, who were invoking their rights as Americans to protest. I'm not going into the weeds or the complexities with Kent State, or the actions of national or state agencies against Civil Rights protesters, or the assassinations of leaders of protest movements. Those were bad actions, but correct me--this specific action would've been a top down directive to shoot and kill citizens on the streets of America because they were protesting brutality by the state and that is essentially a State sanctioned massacre.

Do you get the feeling that there are other Republicans who don't think there was anything wrong with that? I do. That's a problem.

So, it didn't happen because there was a guardrail but those guardrails are being damaged and battered all over the place right now. I'm viewing propaganda networks do their job, trolls pushing a narrative on social media, and a bunch of very happy authoritarian lovers on various forums and news outlets jump on the bash Milley bandwagon. If you don't think that will have a long term effect both among the populace at large and in the RW efforts to recruit adherents among current and former military, I don't know what to say. Best of luck to Secretary Austin in countering it. He's going to need it.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Mrs Whiggins

[wildcat09 29349]

The entire elected Republican party with like a dozen exceptions would support the mass murder of peaceful BLM protesters.

[BrickHorn 18218]

35 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Do you get the feeling that there are other Republicans who don't think there was anything wrong with that?

Only every time I read Facebook.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I'm guessing this will be amended or, if not, challenged but the lines are being drawn on who gets to define what in the public sphere. In this case: anger.

No one would suggest that the all out brawl from the Louden County school board meeting is an acceptable method of protest, but this one is flirting with a dangerous line IMO. Couldn't help but think of "maintain low tones, maintain low tones!"

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Continuing to organize, continuing to recruit. They are an openly fascist organization. The gaslighters who point out that there are minorities among them often equate fascism with white supremacists. Not all fascists are white supremacists, but many are.

 

[Biff Tannen 45673]

11 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Continuing to organize, continuing to recruit. They are an openly fascist organization. The gaslighters who point out that there are minorities among them often equate fascism with white supremacists. Not all fascists are white supremacists, but many are.

 

Why are they not all being arrested as members of a domestic terrorist group?

[atomheartbevo 89648]

On 6/24/2021 at 1:16 PM, BrickHorn said:

Exactly. We came *this* close to an authoritarian takeover of the United States that day. That it ultimately failed is not evidence that there was no risk or that the risk was not substantial.

On 6/24/2021 at 4:41 PM, wildcat09 said:

I'm very curious, for those of you who don't think American democracy was close to dying on 1/6: let's imagine that instead of members of Congress being escorted to safety, members of the mob captured and executed Democratic House and Senate leadership and most other Democratic Reps and Senators and Congress did not reconvene to certify the electoral votes on the 6th. What do you think would've come next?

They could have shut down the count for days, but it doesn’t matter.  It doesn’t change those electoral votes either.  They could have seized those copies and burned them, and there would still be the official originals in the National Archives. Trump’s term had an expiration date marked on it, and John Roberts does not swear him in for a second term simply because his supporters delayed the certification, or even murdered some legislators.  The election was over, and the states certified their votes.  

Trump’s supporters charging into Congress doesn’t mean somebody gives Trump some extra points and the win.  This wasn’t some kind of overtime scenario. The contest was over.  The losing team can’t keep running in touchdowns after the winning team was declared the winners and had left the field. 

Hell, some of the scenarios tossed around about stopping the count could have ended up with Pelosi as President.

I get the anxiety   This is a sports fan site.   We endlessly rehash old games and constantly toss around scenarios about what would have happened if this pass was caught, or that pass was dropped, or this player was recruited.   But none of that changes the outcomes of those games.    It makes sense that we’d rehash some batshit crazy (and scary) recent politician events, but like the games we rehash, they were in the books, and on Jan. 6 the election and electoral votes were in the book.   Trump doesn’t get to extend his term or add a new one simply because his fans were crazier  

 

[Biff Tannen 45673]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

They could have shut down the count for days, but it doesn’t matter.  It doesn’t change those electoral votes either.  They could have seized those copies and burned them, and there would still be the official originals in the National Archives. Trump’s term had an expiration date marked on it, and John Roberts does not swear him in for a second term simply because his supporters delayed the certification, or even murdered some legislators.  The election was over, and the states certified their votes.  

Trump’s supporters charging into Congress doesn’t mean somebody gives Trump some extra points and the win.  This wasn’t some kind of overtime scenario. The contest was over.  The losing team can’t keep running in touchdowns after the winning team was declared the winners and had left the field. 

Hell, some of the scenarios tossed around about stopping the count could have ended up with Pelosi as President.

I get the anxiety   This is a sports fan site.   We endlessly rehash old games and constantly toss around scenarios about what would have happened if this pass was caught, or that pass was dropped, or this player was recruited.   But none of that changes the outcomes of those games.    It makes sense that we’d rehash some batshit crazy (and scary) recent politician events, but like the games we rehash, they were in the books, and on Jan. 6 the election and electoral votes were in the book.   Trump doesn’t get to extend his term or add a new one simply because his fans were crazier  

 

You may be right.  Those people should still have been mowed down by automatic weapons.

[atomheartbevo 89648]

16 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

 Those people should still have been mowed down by automatic weapons.

No argument here.   But, I’ve thought of that scenario, and I keep wondering about the outcome.  Right now, things are winding through the courts, people are losing jobs, businesses, family, and friends.  They may not spend much time in jail (if any) but it’s wrecking their lives and taking a lot of wind out of a lot of sails.  If as a whole they were met with a hail of gunfire, I wonder if the Trumpers would have an actual armed rebellion.  

Edited June 26, 2021 by atomheartbevo

[Biff Tannen 45673]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

No argument here.   But, I’ve thought of that scenario, and I keep wondering about the outcome.  Right now, things are winding through the courts, people are losing jobs, businesses, family, and friends.  They may not spend much time in jail (if any) but it’s wrecking their lives and taking a lot of wind out of a lot of sails.  If as a whole they were met with a hail of gunfire, I wonder if the Trumpers would have an actual armed rebellion.  

Well then I hope the inevitable 2nd wave is repulsed in the way they should have been in the first.  Not sure the fucking around and finding out has been strong enough to deter the continuing domestic terrorist movements.  

[atomheartbevo 89648]

12 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well then I hope the inevitable 2nd wave is repulsed in the way they should have been in the first.  Not sure the fucking around and finding out has been strong enough to deter the continuing domestic terrorist movements.  

The fact that they haven't done anything on that level since then makes me think that there is some deterrence going on, and there's been a couple of "inauguration" dates for Trump that have come and gone since that time as well.  And the fact that they didn't fuck around and find out during Biden's inauguration was a huge sign.

Plus, after Biden was sworn in, he didn't have them rounded up and made to get gay-married or anything, so that probably took some wind out of their sails as well.

If you think about it, there's over 400 people who have been arrested, from over 40 states.  If you look at the nutters who might be prone to do something, there's a chance that they either knew one of those people, or knew somebody who knew one of those people, or they are in one of the groups that is represented among that 400+.  They may also be realizing that if they fuck around and get a felony, their precious 2A rights go out the window.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

46 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

The fact that they haven't done anything on that level since then makes me think that there is some deterrence going on, and there's been a couple of "inauguration" dates for Trump that have come and gone since that time as well.  And the fact that they didn't fuck around and find out during Biden's inauguration was a huge sign.

Plus, after Biden was sworn in, he didn't have them rounded up and made to get gay-married or anything, so that probably took some wind out of their sails as well.

If you think about it, there's over 400 people who have been arrested, from over 40 states.  If you look at the nutters who might be prone to do something, there's a chance that they either knew one of those people, or knew somebody who knew one of those people, or they are in one of the groups that is represented among that 400+.  They may also be realizing that if they fuck around and get a felony, their precious 2A rights go out the window.

I guess you and I are going to be at loggerheads (in a nice way) over this as I do not share your confidence. One of the articles (might have been the one above regarding the PB) discussed a self-imposed moratorium until last month--they aren't ALL stupid, and know that things have been 'hot,' for them. But they are recruiting and taking advantage of the CRT fracas to bring in more people. They've disguised the worst of their fascism with niceties: the cleaner cut look, the academic appeals, the 'think of the children,' the 'women don't really want to be working,' the coded words for Jewish observers and others. But they are emboldened and with Tucker and his owner Lachlan Murdoch pretty much saying it out loud, this is here to stay for awhile. The positives are that it is more difficult to work up stuff on Biden, regardless of one's politics, he does come across as genial AND he's white.

This is from a reporter with a background in fascism/RW who works for Hurst:

 

They and the rest of the nationalists and fascist types worldwide see this as a big chance to step forward. You may believe they're back under their rock, but I think of them as hiding in a cave and watching for their moment.

Also: setting aside Trump, he is not the only one using Russian style disinfo--the entire party does it.

 

[atomheartbevo 89648]

2 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

They and the rest of the nationalists and fascist types worldwide see this as a big chance to step forward. You may believe they're back under their rock, but I think of them as hiding in a cave and watching for their moment.

They had their chance to step forward.  Donnie repeatedly asked them to step forward on January 6th.  Trump spent much of 2020 winding them up about how the election would be stolen from him.  

On December 19th, Trump tweeted: "Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election"...."Big protest in DC on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!", and the "Stop the Steal" folks had been pushing that for quite a while as well.

By the time Trump is pushing the "wild" rally in December, the election had been decided, the electoral votes had been counted, and all of the Trumpkins knew that Biden was going to be sworn in..

It's not so much that they are back under the rock, it's just that when push comes to shove, they either aren't as bold and brave as they pretend to be (particularly the ones who have more to lose, such as jobs, homes, businesses, etc.), or there simply aren't as many as thought.  

We are going to disagree.  You seem to think that they were waiting for their big chance to step forward.  I believe that January 6th was that big chance, and Donald Trump was begging them to do so, and Donald Trump was telling them that January 6th was that big chance to step up and be counted.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

56 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

You seem to think that they were waiting for their big chance to step forward.  I believe that January 6th was that big chance, and Donald Trump was begging them to do so, and Donald Trump was telling them that January 6th was that big chance to step up and be counted.  

Definitely January 6th was their big chance and as big a cock up as it was, it went the way other DJT enterprises do. However, the low hanging expendable fruit is what we are seeing get charged with offenses, the first of which are now being adjudicated. We'll see how much further up the chain this goes as I don't believe the commission will have much effect due to RW media bubbles. In the meantime, there are an awful lot of people who set this in motion who are walking around spewing the same old stuff and planning for the next go round. I think they'll have takers, you don't but I'd much rather you be correct and I certainly will have no issue eating crow if we emerge from this a better stronger country.

[staboner 4969]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:28 AM, Ojo Rojo said:

No we didn't.  10,000 or so people basically trespassed and vandalized the capitol building. It was shocking that Americans would behave that way, but it was effectively a meaningless exercise.  They didn't even disrupt congressional business going on in the same building in any meaningful way.  Delayed it a few hours.  That's it. They never got close to actually seizing power.  The real, actual power was never remotely threatened.  Congress was still intact.  The actual, duly elected president was in the White House.  The Supreme Court was intact.  The Pentagon was unaffected. The entire bureaucracy was still answering to the right people. This "movement" didn't have the numbers, they didn't have the right people in the right places to even get close to an actual coup.  This was a cartoon of a coup, nothing more.

good lord. no, no and no. all of these institutions were not functioning as required both then and now. the cancer is everywhere and depending on how certain chips fell folks played along as needed. this post is wildly naive and very frustrating to read. 

[staboner 4969]

man some posts on this page read like poo. the naivity of some is still just jarring to me. i get trying to be positive and all but i mean nothing has changed. the circus is moving in the same direction. the conflict has not been resolved whatsoever. 

there is only a divide in this country. that is what is governing. and there is no mechanism to fix so far as I can see. you can talk about cowards and how they had their chance, their numbers, other possibilities and blah blah blah, but you are just in the weeds. pull your head out of the battle's ass and try to understand there is a war being fought. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

I’m not as worried about the bullets as I am about the gun manufacturers. There will always be stupid pawns for any movement, and there is no shortage of dumb poor whites in the US. The constant propaganda feed from Fox News, OANN, Newsmax will continue to fire the division engine. The “leaders” of the GOP are just playing to the crowd. The money behind them is controlling and spreading the cracks in democracy and until they are stopped, the bullets will continue 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Neonmoon

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Militias are something that we've grown accustomed to seeing, this trend below is also concerning. Sheriff groups that say essentially-we're the dukes of the county and we'll do as we please. One could say, 'well that is local control', but given the number of stories I've read regarding malfeasance by sheriff's departments, this is not something that should be encouraged IMO. In addition, the irony of mentioning the adherence to the Constitution by groups of people who have difficulty determining the difference between state sponsored censorship and consequences by a discerning public is not lost. But here we are.

Quote

 

The Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association says, “law enforcement powers held by the sheriff supersede those of any agent, officer, elected official or employee from any level of government when in the jurisdiction of the county.”

The group believes county sheriffs have a duty to interpret and uphold the constitution that supersedes other elected officials up to the president. It is against federal gun laws and COVID restrictions and sees sheriffs as a final defense against government overreach. The resolutions state that “any conduct contrary to the United States Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or the Bill of Rights will be dealt with as criminal activity.”

 

 

[atomheartbevo 89648]

Congress could easily put "The Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association" in check simply by withholding federal funds and banning the DOD from handing out surplus equipment to them.  We'll see how fast those sheriffs think they rule the roost if they lose some of that sweet, sweet federal money and equipment.

[Neonmoon 38129]

The sovereign citizen Sheriff convention. Great. Aka morons 
 

Quote

The resolutions state that “any conduct contrary to the United States Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or the Bill of Rights will be dealt with as criminal activity.”

They must of missed the Supremacy Clause in their constitutional law study groups. 

[atomheartbevo 89648]

19 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Definitely January 6th was their big chance and as big a cock up as it was, it went the way other DJT enterprises do. However, the low hanging expendable fruit is what we are seeing get charged with offenses, the first of which are now being adjudicated. We'll see how much further up the chain this goes as I don't believe the commission will have much effect due to RW media bubbles. In the meantime, there are an awful lot of people who set this in motion who are walking around spewing the same old stuff and planning for the next go round. I think they'll have takers, you don't but I'd much rather you be correct and I certainly will have no issue eating crow if we emerge from this a better stronger country.

I think they will have some takers, but January 6th was their Super Bowl.  Trump wound them up for the better part of a year with his talk of the Dems only winning if they steal the election, and then between November 3rd and early January, he really wound them up by claiming the Dems stole the election.  After January 6th, Trump lost his twitter and retreated back to Florida to his safe space.

I can't decide if those on January 6th were the low-hanging expendable fruit, or if the low-hanging expendable fruit is all that is left, because I can make the argument for both cases.  

You could easily say that those sucked into January 6th were the low-hanging expendable fruit that blindly followed an idiot, but you could also say that because January 6th was their Super Bowl and the God Emperor King was actually speaking down the street and encouraging them to take back the Capitol or whatever, that the die-hards had to be there as well.  That would mean the only ones left are the low-hanging expendable fruit who actually don't have anything to lose.  But then, if they wouldn't listen to Trump  in 2020, and if they wouldn't listen to his orders to be at the Capitol on January 6th and to be "wild", why are they going to listen to somebody else?

[atomheartbevo 89648]

20 hours ago, staboner said:

man some posts on this page read like poo. the naivity of some is still just jarring to me. i get trying to be positive and all but i mean nothing has changed. the circus is moving in the same direction. the conflict has not been resolved whatsoever. 

It's not about being positive, it's about assessing the situation.  January 6th was their Super Bowl.  God-Emporer-King Trump commanded that they be there, and be "wild".

Trump still has a shit-ton of pull, but you have to wonder about any of his followers who ignored his orders to be there on the 6th - why weren't they there?  What would be more important than ignoring Dear Leader's orders to take back the Capitol or whatever?  What would be more important than throwing a wrench into an illegal (in their eyes) election outcome?  

Did they need to do laundry that day?  Did they need to go to work that day?  It sure as hell seemed like a lot of the January 6th crowd were there because they had the ability to be there - either they had jobs that allowed them to be there (business owners, realtors, lawyers, etc., or they had financial situations (somebody else was paying their bills whether that be a parent or spouse or whatever) that allowed them to be there, or they had no responsibilities/job/whatever at all (which ties into the previous group).

It just didn't feel like a lot of non-rich people that we typically associate with Trump were there, because they had shit to do, like jobs to go to.

[atomheartbevo 89648]

20 hours ago, staboner said:

there is only a divide in this country. that is what is governing. and there is no mechanism to fix so far as I can see. you can talk about cowards and how they had their chance, their numbers, other possibilities and blah blah blah, but you are just in the weeds. pull your head out of the battle's ass and try to understand there is a war being fought. 

I side with this view more than you may think, but at the same time, for the Trumpkins out there, if we are to use battles and war analogies, January 6th was their Waterloo, their Gettysburg, their Stalingrad.  Trump commanded that they be there and be "wild".  He spent the better part of a year telling them that the Dems would steal the election, and he spent nearly two months after November 3rd, telling them that the Dems stole the election, and he made sure that January 6th was circled on their calendars.  For somebody who had over 70 million votes, sure seems like a lot of those tens of millions had other things to do.

We need to address the elephant in the room though:  Social media, Fox News/OAN/Newsmax, etc.  A lot of these people wouldn't be so wound up/wound so tightly if they weren't spoonfed this crap on demand, and the talking heads were deliberately out to make them angry.  

These days, these people aren't being wound up because of a Trump tweet, they damn sure aren't being wound up because of something Mitch McConnell or Kevin McCarthy said, or most other Republicans, or anything in the Republican platform.  They are being wound up because they are living in echo chambers and being spoon fed stupid shit by Hannity, Tucker, etc.  Of course, by that same token, because they are being fed this stuff from the comfort of their La-Z-boy, arguably their world views are being satisfied by FNC/OAN/etc. and they get to vent their feelings on Facebook/etc. and so they just don't feel compelled to get out and act.

Edited June 27, 2021 by atomheartbevo