Buying a New Vehicle in this environment

[Hmbre97 6320]

I'm really regretting not putting in a reservation for a Lightning. I thought I'd be happy with my current F150 with the ecoboost but that was back when gas was 2 bucks a gallon and I didn't know they were going to make these trucks fast AF. I'm thinking about selling my current truck while used car prices are crazy and waiting until shit goes back to normal or the order banks open back up for the Lightning.

[Dahobbs 17626]

42 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Are they going to keep making "dumb" cars because all these microchips seem to be holding everything up. Can we opt out of skynet?

The "smart" car parts aren't really the hold up. It is the microcontrollers for stuff like powered seats, powered windows, etc. The "smart" car parts are generally made on newer processor nodes that still have some availability. Older nodes where those commodity parts were manufactured are much more constrained right now, which is why you see all these issues. 

[chainsaw 9872]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

The "smart" car parts aren't really the hold up. It is the microcontrollers for stuff like powered seats, powered windows, etc. The "smart" car parts are generally made on newer processor nodes that still have some availability. Older nodes where those commodity parts were manufactured are much more constrained right now, which is why you see all these issues. 

I can do without that shit too.

[Dahobbs 17626]

11 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I can do without that shit too.

Yeah, those cars don't really exist anymore. You'd be talking about a car without fuel injection or electronic timing, no radio, no powered seats, no powered windows, and limited climate control.  You could buy a hobby kit car and put it together yourself. That's probably the closest you'll get. 

[Captainant 27682]

3 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Are they going to keep making "dumb" cars because all these microchips seem to be holding everything up. Can we opt out of skynet?

yeah like Dahobbs said - you can't really buy a non-fuel injected car anymore. A big part of modern fuel economy gains came from having a little chip constantly monitoring and tweaking your fuel mixture (formerly the choke on a carb car) and spark timing for optimal power.

[chainsaw 9872]

10 minutes ago, Captainant said:

yeah like Dahobbs said - you can't really buy a non-fuel injected car anymore. A big part of modern fuel economy gains came from having a little chip constantly monitoring and tweaking your fuel mixture (formerly the choke on a carb car) and spark timing for optimal power.

That's a fair point. I still don't understand how the supply chain could get this royally fucked if these components have been a part of it for decades. Almost feels as if big money forces have conspired to tank the economy and make a certain political party look responsible.

[Captainant 27682]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That's a fair point. I still don't understand how the supply chain could get this royally fucked if these components have been a part of it for decades. Almost feels as if big money forces have conspired to tank the economy and make a certain political party look responsible.

Car manufacturers don't have any chips because of combo of lean (read: profitable) manufacturing supply chains and many of them cancelling their orders early in the pandemic and losing their spot in line. There is also a definite bottleneck in chip supply as well right now due to a myriad of issues ranging from global conflict, water shortages in Taiwan, you name it, it's happened this year.

[Dahobbs 17626]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

That's a fair point. I still don't understand how the supply chain could get this royally fucked if these components have been a part of it for decades. Almost feels as if big money forces have conspired to tank the economy and make a certain political party look responsible.

That's actually part of the problem. These components are built on legacy manufacturing processes and are sold at commodity prices (read: cheap). Right now all of our supply of silicon is going to modern, leading edge or near leading edge process nodes due to a silicon shortage (bunch of causes of that) because chips from those nodes are going to be much more profitable. As a result, legacy chip manufacturing has taken a nose dive. Car manufacturers got lazy and didn't plan ahead for these old facilities eventually shutting down or reducing production. And, unfortunately for everyone, it isn't quite so simple to port a design from an old legacy node to a newer node. And even if you could, you'd pay through the teeth for the part because you're fighting for the same silicon that could go into much more expensive GPUs and CPUs for mobile/home computers. 

[chainsaw 9872]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

That's actually part of the problem. These components are built on legacy manufacturing processes and are sold at commodity prices (read: cheap). Right now all of our supply of silicon is going to modern, leading edge or near leading edge process nodes due to a silicon shortage (bunch of causes of that) because chips from those nodes are going to be much more profitable. As a result, legacy chip manufacturing has taken a nose dive. Car manufacturers got lazy and didn't plan ahead for these old facilities eventually shutting down or reducing production. And, unfortunately for everyone, it isn't quite so simple to port a design from an old legacy node to a newer node. And even if you could, you'd pay through the teeth for the part because you're fighting for the same silicon that could go into much more expensive GPUs and CPUs for mobile/home computers. 

That right there.

[jimmyjazz 45992]

I bought my daughter a 1965 Volvo.  (Yep, it's a stick.  She's probably the only 19 YO in town who can drive one.)  It has some problems, but the motor and transmission are sweet.  Needs some work on the fuel delivery -- new gas tank this weekend, old one is full of crap that keeps fouling the line.  Definitely needs new upholstery, body work, whatever, but it moves (now).

It's kinda nice working on a car where you can easily trace every bit of power flow, etc., without computer chips getting in the way.  Twin carbs, basic fuel pump, voltage regulator, block, transmission, that's about it.  It's been a walk back in time.

[Vegas64 676]

9 hours ago, Hmbre97 said:

I'm really regretting not putting in a reservation for a Lightning. I thought I'd be happy with my current F150 with the ecoboost but that was back when gas was 2 bucks a gallon and I didn't know they were going to make these trucks fast AF. I'm thinking about selling my current truck while used car prices are crazy and waiting until shit goes back to normal or the order banks open back up for the Lightning.

Wouldn't have mattered. Too much demand, not enough supply. 

[Sam Lin 3559]

12 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Are they going to keep making "dumb" cars because all these microchips seem to be holding everything up. Can we opt out of skynet?

Mazda is shipping some cars without Bose audio, only base audio, because of shortages on the higher-end audio system. I've only been wishing I could opt out of Bose on every goddamn car for the past 20yrs, so I'm sort of enjoying this.

[Wally Fairway 5569]

11 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I bought my daughter a 1965 Volvo.  (Yep, it's a stick.  She's probably the only 19 YO in town who can drive one.)  It has some problems, but the motor and transmission are sweet.  Needs some work on the fuel delivery -- new gas tank this weekend, old one is full of crap that keeps fouling the line.  Definitely needs new upholstery, body work, whatever, but it moves (now).

It's kinda nice working on a car where you can easily trace every bit of power flow, etc., without computer chips getting in the way.  Twin carbs, basic fuel pump, voltage regulator, block, transmission, that's about it.  It's been a walk back in time.

No picture of the vintage car?

Or the 19yo?

C'mon man

[Bogeywon 2519]

Leased a new suv. Most expensive suv I’ve ever leased. Sign docs and they leave with my old car *phone rings “oh yeah 3 main features don’t work till we get a chip this fall” 😡

[gyroprotagonist 2594]

18 hours ago, chainsaw said:

That's a fair point. I still don't understand how the supply chain could get this royally fucked if these components have been a part of it for decades. Almost feels as if big money forces have conspired to tank the economy and make a certain political party look responsible.

the automakers cancelled a ton of orders to the silicon fabs during the pandemic/lock downs.  I work in supply chain for a global phone mfger and our demand kept increasing with all the gov stimmys.  we normally see big increases in sales during tax refund time for example, so we planned on an increase even though through the pandemic.  so i am sure our chip orders increased as did a lot of consumer electronic categories (work from home stuff like computers, video call stuff, routers etc...).  This coupled with periodic shut downs of these same fabs in China, India, Vietnam, S. Korea etc.. at various times led to a massive shortage when the automakers tried to re issue the orders to keep up with demand.

Silicon takes a long time to process.  For high end graphic cards and CPUs a wafer can take 15+ weeks start to finish.  So even placing an order for a silicon run and getting it confirmed to a specific start date could take 6-12 months before you could see those chips.  Also, at least in our industry we also saw massive decommits from key suppliers on promised shipments, so I can assume that the same thing happened in the auto industry.  you line up everything and are waiting for a specific chip and then it does not come when promised.

 

[Wally Fairway 5569]

4 hours ago, Bogeywon said:

Leased a new suv. Most expensive suv I’ve ever leased. Sign docs and they leave with my old car *phone rings “oh yeah 3 main features don’t work till we get a chip this fall” 😡

give it up - Aviator, Nautilus, Yukon, Wagoneer, GX, B-class, MDX, Urus, AM DBX, Chevy Trax?

[Bogeywon 2519]

1 hour ago, Wally Fairway said:

give it up - Aviator, Nautilus, Yukon, Wagoneer, GX, B-class, MDX, Urus, AM DBX, Chevy Trax?

Cadilac XT6

[Hmbre97 6320]

Leased a new suv. Most expensive suv I’ve ever leased. Sign docs and they leave with my old car *phone rings “oh yeah 3 main features don’t work till we get a chip this fall”

I'm not falling for this bit, no way. Let's go Russ.

[fattyflattie 4639]

13 hours ago, gyroprotagonist said:

Silicon takes a long time to process.  For high end graphic cards and CPUs a wafer can take 15+ weeks start to finish.

Thanks for posting this, I had no idea.  Thought that would almost instantaneous. 

[torre 1286]

Saw the below article today.   Bleak numbers for the buyer.    Dealerships continue to roll.

 

(excerpts)   full article has info on preowned market and finance rates

 

- The average incentive offered by dealers has dropped to an all-time low of $1,034, according to a joint estimate from J.D. Power and LMC Automotive.

- The average per-car profit at dealerships is $5,046 — up from $2,733 a year ago — which is offsetting a slower sales pace.

- A growing share of buyers are trading in their car for another preowned vehicle.

 

The average amount paid for new car is more than $45,200, up 18.7% from a year ago, according to a joint forecast from J.D. Power and LMC Automotive. Buyers are paying about $700 above sticker price on average, Drury said.

At the same time, the average incentive offered by dealers has dropped to an all-time low of $1,034, compared with $2,996 a year ago, the J.D. Power/LMC forecast shows. Generally speaking, dealers don’t need to offer much in the way of incentives to sell cars these days.

In fact, despite the pace of sales being down 23.8% from a year ago due to reduced inventory, the average per-car profit at dealerships is $5,046 up from $2,733 a year ago.

“This elevated per-unit profit level is more than offsetting the drop in sales volume,” said Thomas King, president of J.D. Power’s data and analytics division, in the forecast.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/27/memorial-day-weekend-car-shopping-is-looking-pretty-bleak-.html

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2652]

getting a hybrid f150 platinum due in next week. somehow talked them into 3.5k off msrp.  still in shock.  

Edited May 28, 2022 by ONE YARD

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2737]

getting a hybrid f150 platinum due in next week. somehow talked them into 3.5k off msrp.  still in shock.  

What’s the expected mileage on that?
I’ll be driving 100-120 each trip so I’ve opted out of the 250 diesel for now.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2652]

34 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

What’s the expected mileage on that?
I’ll be driving 100-120 each trip so I’ve opted out of the 250 diesel for now.

they claim 24 mpg, but you know how manufacturers always lie about that shit.

To be honest, i picked it over the standard ecoboost due to the built in 7.2 kw generator.  

don’t trust ercot to keep the lights on.  

plus it’s quick as shit for a truck. 0-60 5.3 seconds  

that said, i’ll update y’all in a month or so. i do about 60 to 80 miles a day, so i’ll get a pretty decent idea fast. 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by ONE YARD

[Guest]

I got really impatient. Kept waiting on Denalis. Said fuck it and bought my mid life crisis car. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Porterhouse

[ChickenSandwich 9843]

Golden Seal of approval. 
 

360 smells

 

[mdleast 8295]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:35 PM, Porterhouse said:

I got really impatient. Kept waiting on Denalis. Said fuck it and bought my mid life crisis car. 

Out of curiosity, when did you make the decision to buy it?  That is, did you order one a while back and are just now getting it or did you buy from a dealership/owner just now?  I have a 17 year old Tahoe and have been ready to buy a new vehicle (and really like the new Bronco and/or a nice Wrangler) for the last year or so but can't stand the thought of "buying high" during the chip shortage.  That said, I am also really REALLY ready to get a new vehicle. Part of my problem is none of the dealerships even have any to test drive.

Edited May 29, 2022 by mdleast

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mdleast said:

Out of curiosity, when did you make the decision to buy it?  That is, did you order one a while back and are just now getting it or did you buy from a dealership/owner just now?  I have a 17 year old Tahoe and have been ready to buy a new vehicle (and really like the new Bronco and/or a nice Wrangler) for the last year or so but can't stand the thought of "buying high" during the chip shortage.  That said, I am also really REALLY ready to get a new vehicle. Part of my problem is none of the dealerships even have any to test drive.

I have 2 Denalis on order that when the dealership calls me I’ll likely pass. Certainly on the first. The second is the “Ultimate Denali” that comes out in ‘23. 

I bought this Bronco to have in the family forever. My son just turned 12 and will certainly drive it. My oldest daughter is about to be 14, and she can if she wants. Probably a little too aggressive for her. I can’t drive this for more than a few years. I just drove it to Florida and it handles so smoothly and nimbly, but you can’t get away from 35” mud terrains on the highway when going 80+. It’s loud as shit. 

I had a dealer in Dallas call me Thursday and say they had one he thought I’d be interested in. I said, it’s mine, I’ll be there at lunch Friday to pick up. He texted me at 10 AM to say they’d already sold it. So I got pissed and went on a massive search. A dealer in Lubbock contacted me at 2:15 Friday afternoon. By 6 pm we struck a deal and it was on a flatbed to Dallas. It was certainly $10K over “sticker” but since Ford isn’t taking new orders until ‘23 on Broncos, sticker is meaningless. What I paid for it is “market”, and like you, I wanted a new car so bad I probably wasn’t thinking straight (particularly with red). But, it’s cheaper than the Denali, and while Broncos and all used SUVs are going to start very soon depreciating more quickly than they have been, Broncos hold their value. Broncos like mine have been and will continue to function like higher end Wranglers - they hold value. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Porterhouse

[smuggs 9353]

On 5/29/2022 at 4:21 PM, Porterhouse said:

I just drove it to Florida and it handles so smoothly and nimbly, but you can’t get away from 35” mud terrains on the highway when going 80+. It’s loud as shit. 

Ditch the muds for some Nitto Ridge Grapplers. The noise issue will be solved, guaranteed.

[Clintonaldo 2575]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:52 PM, Captainant said:

Car manufacturers don't have any chips because of combo of lean (read: profitable) manufacturing supply chains and many of them cancelling their orders early in the pandemic and losing their spot in line. There is also a definite bottleneck in chip supply as well right now due to a myriad of issues ranging from global conflict, water shortages in Taiwan, you name it, it's happened this year.

 

On top of that it is more profitable to make chips for TV’s and appliances than it is for cars. 

[Telegraph_it 3358]

I found out recently that I have a third kid on the way. This means we need a bigger vehicle. I hate buying vehicles which is why I haven’t since 15. 
 

Seems like if we are going with a Tahoe or GLS (yes my wife doesn’t know what the hell she wants) I should just put an order in now so it’s ready by Jan 23? 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Telegraph_it
Words

[Incredulity 11678]

3 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

I should just put an order in now so it’s ready by Jan

Give it some time.  There is going to be a collision of normalizing supply and economic slowdown in the near future.

just one surly asshole’s opinion  

[tx 3 putt 77154]

3 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

I found out recently that I have a third kid on the way. This means we need a bigger vehicle. I hate buying vehicles which is why I haven’t since 15. 
 

Seems like if we are going with a Tahoe or GLS (yes my wife doesn’t know what the hell she wants) I should just put an order in now so it’s ready by Jan 23? 

what do you have now ?

[Telegraph_it 3358]

18 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

what do you have now ?

Driving an X5. We need something with third row and captains chairs for the second row. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

51 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

Driving an X5. We need something with third row and captains chairs for the second row. 

Don’t know how old your other 2 are but regular Tahoe becomes tight with second row captains if they play sports or your travel much.  It’s night and day difference between that and the XL/Burb depending on your fancy. 

[tx 3 putt 77154]

5 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

I found out recently that I have a third kid on the way. This means we need a bigger vehicle. I hate buying vehicles which is why I haven’t since 15. 
 

Seems like if we are going with a Tahoe or GLS (yes my wife doesn’t know what the hell she wants) I should just put an order in now so it’s ready by Jan 23? 

id look at the Denali XL 

[Telegraph_it 3358]

7 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Don’t know how old your other 2 are but regular Tahoe becomes tight with second row captains if they play sports or your travel much.  It’s night and day difference between that and the XL/Burb depending on your fancy. 

Good info. I am working off the assumption that we won’t make road trips past 3 hours. But I didn’t even think about sports… not sure how I could be that dumb, my oldest is three, and is probably a year out from starting soccer or T ball. 
 

My FIL has a 09 suburban with 40k miles sitting up in J Hole. He offered it to us but it doesn’t have any cameras or sensors and no leather seats so my wife said no. I think it’s perfect. I mean parallel parking is kind of difficult, I had no idea how much I rely on those sensors, but I think we would get use to it. 

[Bateshorn 9928]

On 5/24/2022 at 1:23 PM, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, those cars don't really exist anymore. You'd be talking about a car without fuel injection or electronic timing, no radio, no powered seats, no powered windows, and limited climate control.  You could buy a hobby kit car and put it together yourself. That's probably the closest you'll get. 

There’s a Jay Leon’s garage where he shows his Lamborghini’s and he talks about how he daily drove his 1986 Countach, which was one of the very last with a carb. One of the things he talks about is how that car has way more in common with a Model T than a modern car due to the revolution in auto technology. 
 

Cars these days really are moving computers.

[tx 3 putt 77154]

12 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

Driving an X5. We need something with third row and captains chairs for the second row. 

 

let me know if you want to dump that X5, I'd be interested 

[CooterBrown 18015]

Driving an X5. We need something with third row and captains chairs for the second row. 

I would’ve said the redesigned Sequoia but they fucked up second row captains chairs. Instead of sliding forward to access the 3rd row, they now fold forward eliminating access to the 3rd row if you have car seats installed. I don’t know what the fuck Toyota was thinking with that design.

[Telegraph_it 3358]

34 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

I would’ve said the redesigned Sequoia but they fucked up second row captains chairs. Instead of sliding forward to access the 3rd row, they now fold forward eliminating access to the 3rd row if you have car seats installed. I don’t know what the fuck Toyota was thinking with that design.

 

There is too much to think about when buying a vehicle for 5. 
 

Anyone have any experience with the diesel engine they are putting in the Yukons and Suburbans now? 

[fattyflattie 4639]

10 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

Anyone have any experience with the diesel engine they are putting in the Yukons and Suburbans now? 

Friend has one and loves it. I like our 6.2 more in that application, but I drive a diesel truck so no need to “shoot the gap” with the Yukon.  I’ve got about 350k miles between our our 6.2s and they’ve been great. My Duramax has been great, too. 
 

7 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

Good info. I am working off the assumption that we won’t make road trips past 3 hours. But I didn’t even think about sports… not sure how I could be that dumb, my oldest is three, and is probably a year out from starting soccer or T ball. 
 

My FIL has a 09 suburban with 40k miles sitting up in J Hole. He offered it to us but it doesn’t have any cameras or sensors and no leather seats so my wife said no. I think it’s perfect. I mean parallel parking is kind of difficult, I had no idea how much I rely on those sensors, but I think we would get use to it. 

The newest iteration of the Tahoe’s/Yukon’s have more space than the previous, but it’s nothing like an XL/Burb.  We went from second row captains to actually seeking out a bench for the new one.  Talk about a bitch, it’s got to be a 1 in 500 spec on Denalis.  They both have their place imo.  When we take it on ski trip, or big in state vacations, the ranch, whatever, it’s nice to be able to put all 3 kids in second row and lay third completely flat.  When we had 2nd row capt chairs, we always had half of the third row folded down for softball bags, or luggage, or whatever.  Additionally, all the kids would not feel great in the very back. It’s got a different ride back there. So that’s worked out better for us, even if it’s the “less luxurious” setup.   The other yukon is still kicking.  It runs quail duty at the ranch now.  

[CooterBrown 18015]

Ford just announced that all electric vehicles will bypass dealerships and be sold online directly to consumers like Tesla does. Prices will be fixed and non-negotiable.

Dealerships have to be shitting themselves over the news. Their business model is dead man walking.

[royiv 9326]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Ford just announced that all electric vehicles will bypass dealerships and be sold online directly to consumers like Tesla does. Prices will be fixed and non-negotiable.

Dealerships have to be shitting themselves over the news. Their business model is dead man walking.

Do you have a source that this is definitive? I can only find something that the CEO made some comments to this effect. If this comes to fruition, it's going to be a bloodbath for all of the big dealership groups like AutoNation, Penske, etc. I would love to be a fly on the wall of a Ford Dealer's Council meeting right about now.

[CooterBrown 18015]

Do you have a source that this is definitive? I can only find something that the CEO made some comments to this effect. If this comes to fruition, it's going to be a bloodbath for all of the big dealership groups like AutoNation, Penske, etc. I would love to be a fly on the wall of a Ford Dealer's Council meeting right about now.

Here’s the video I saw that goes over it. It was covered in the Detroit newspaper yesterday.

[Chult86 335]

Update after owning my Kia EV6 for a little over a week...

 

Was my first EV, and I will never go back. This is the nicest, most comfortable drive I've ever had and it's not even close. Commuted 200 miles to a work conference, no issues on a single charge. Hotel had a charging station at the valet so when I left I was back at 100% and made the trip home comfortably. Plugged into the garage and by the following morning was back to 100%.

 

It's hard to describe just how different the driving experience is in an EV over an ICE.

[Dahobbs 17626]

1 hour ago, Chult86 said:

Update after owning my Kia EV6 for a little over a week...

 

Was my first EV, and I will never go back. This is the nicest, most comfortable drive I've ever had and it's not even close. Commuted 200 miles to a work conference, no issues on a single charge. Hotel had a charging station at the valet so when I left I was back at 100% and made the trip home comfortably. Plugged into the garage and by the following morning was back to 100%.

 

It's hard to describe just how different the driving experience is in an EV over an ICE.

Yup. So much less stressful. 

[Guest]

Counterpoint: you drive a fucking Kia 

[Dahobbs 17626]

7 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

Counterpoint: you drive a fucking Kia 

Kia's are pretty awesome now. They've come along way from the early 90s. Hell, Genesis is legit one of the best luxury car brands, with its recent cars meeting or even exceeding the best the Germans offer. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Kia's are pretty awesome now. They've come along way from the early 90s. Hell, Genesis is legit one of the best luxury car brands, with its recent cars meeting or even exceeding the best the Germans offer. 

I actually had already viewed images of it and it was a good looking automobile. 

[Dbeasy 15073]

On 6/5/2022 at 1:54 PM, CooterBrown said:

Ford just announced that all electric vehicles will bypass dealerships and be sold online directly to consumers like Tesla does. Prices will be fixed and non-negotiable.

Dealerships have to be shitting themselves over the news. Their business model is dead man walking.

I believe Texas law prohibits that here.