Buying a New Vehicle in this environment

[Captainant 27637]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

The new bill also includes plug-in hybrids, which have shown to be not low in pollution, as most of their mileage are run on fuel. 

Getting 50+ miles out of a gallon a fuel is definitely lower in pollution than only getting 15-20 mpg

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4975]

And if you are just running around town to get groceries and pick up/drop off kids from school and stuff you should use less gas than that as long as you plug it in.

[52-80 19147]

37 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

And if you are just running around town to get groceries and pick up/drop off kids from school and stuff you should use less gas than that as long as you plug it in.

most people dont plug it in.  the bulk of the power is provided by gas motor, and the fact that its there, results in real world usage of primarily gas propulsion.

https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-phev-use-jun22/

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/fs-real-world-phev-use-jun22.pdf

https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-usage-of-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicles-fuel-consumption-electric-driving-and-co2-emissions/

 

the bill has a very tiny battery qualification threshold, and allows manufacturers to real tax benefits from cars that are minimally 'green'.

let's say a gas car normally sells for $30k, and a full size battery pack cost $10k to produce.  a manufacturer can add $3k of miniature battery + motor, mark it up to $37k.  the consumer buys that same car as a hybrid at net cost of $30k (after rebate). 

manufacturer pockets $4k of additional margin, subsidized by tax payer (loss of potential revenue)...and the net pollution effect is not any better.

if govt wants to incentive cleaner cars, either raise the threshold to a larger battery pack, or go wholehog and require full ev.

 

[Captainant 27637]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

let's say a gas car normally sells for $30k, and a full size battery pack cost $10k to produce.  a manufacturer can add $3k of miniature battery + motor, mark it up to $37k.  the consumer buys that same car as a hybrid at net cost of $30k (after rebate). 

This is quite the fantastical hypothetical that is not reflective of the current hybrid car market

[Wally Fairway 5541]

Is this were we post about getting the new/used car?

Just bought a 2019 Fusion Hybrid, to replace a 2011 Fusion with 270,000 miles (and needing about $3,500 in repairs/tires/etc). Looked for something with high mpg, as I'm currently driving over 3,000 miles a month. There were a few around to choose from, but the inventory isn't on a lot for very long. 
I drive them until they are not reliable anymore or they cost more in upkeep than a car payment would cost; so I'm hoping to keep this for 7-10 years if they drivetrain and battery system allows it.

[Dahobbs 17526]

19 hours ago, 52-80 said:

most people dont plug it in.  the bulk of the power is provided by gas motor, and the fact that its there, results in real world usage of primarily gas propulsion.

https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-phev-use-jun22/

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/fs-real-world-phev-use-jun22.pdf

https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-usage-of-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicles-fuel-consumption-electric-driving-and-co2-emissions/

 

the bill has a very tiny battery qualification threshold, and allows manufacturers to real tax benefits from cars that are minimally 'green'.

let's say a gas car normally sells for $30k, and a full size battery pack cost $10k to produce.  a manufacturer can add $3k of miniature battery + motor, mark it up to $37k.  the consumer buys that same car as a hybrid at net cost of $30k (after rebate). 

manufacturer pockets $4k of additional margin, subsidized by tax payer (loss of potential revenue)...and the net pollution effect is not any better.

if govt wants to incentive cleaner cars, either raise the threshold to a larger battery pack, or go wholehog and require full ev.

 

I know we plug ours in. 1600 miles, 800 of them all electric. The gas usage is really because of a few longer road trips right after purchase. For daily drives, our Pacifica PHEV is all electric. I think part of the not plugging in thing is just lack of consumer education, not necessarily a limitation of the product. The plug-in mix will increase as more consumers get used to the idea of electric cars in general. 

P.S. I would have preferred an all electric minivan, but such a thing isn't really available yet. 

[CooterBrown 18004]

[elfenix 34223]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:54 AM, Dahobbs said:

I know we plug ours in. 1600 miles, 800 of them all electric. The gas usage is really because of a few longer road trips right after purchase. For daily drives, our Pacifica PHEV is all electric. I think part of the not plugging in thing is just lack of consumer education, not necessarily a limitation of the product. The plug-in mix will increase as more consumers get used to the idea of electric cars in general. 

P.S. I would have preferred an all electric minivan, but such a thing isn't really available yet. 

[Dahobbs 17526]

56 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Model X wasn't big enough. More of a larger midsize SUV. We could have fit everyone, but car seats would be tight and insufficient room for strollers, luggage, etc. 

[Armybrat 40822]

[Your Mom 4805]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:54 AM, Dahobbs said:

P.S. I would have preferred an all electric minivan, but such a thing isn't really available yet. 

Coming soon:

[Dahobbs 17526]

3 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

Coming soon:

Yup. Would have done it, but not available yet. Well, that and the wife really hates the VW bus for some reason. 

[Armybrat 40822]

My son drove his all over the western half of the country in his camper version in the 1990s…

 

[Wally Fairway 5541]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:17 PM, Your Mom said:

Coming soon:

Username & phrasing

 

[torre 1285]

Below is a very, very lengthy article about "stealerships" and buying a car in today's market.  Worth the read if you are in the market,  note the add on strategy.

Last week I was presented a pricing worksheet by a dealer who attempted to overcharge me by $200 for State sales tax (.0625).   Silence when I questioned the figure,  left the dealership.

 

Ten people could go into a dealership and each pay a wildly different amount to buy the same exact vehicle.

Economists call this sort of pricing strategy "price discrimination." That's when, instead of charging everyone the same price, sellers charge people different prices based on their willingness to pay. In simpler terms, it means that the seller milks as much money as they can out of you. Not all dealerships engage in this pricing strategy, but many do it aggressively, often with snake oil-style salesmanship, deceptive marketing tactics, hidden fees, and overpriced add-ons, like floor mats, alarm systems, or anti-rust undercoating. Some consumers call the outfits that employ these tactics "stealerships."

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/08/30/1119715886/inside-the-rise-of-stealerships-and-the-shady-economics-of-car-buying

 

 

 

[Sam Lin 3551]

Same way airline tickets are sold.

[Your Mom 4805]

Everybody pays a different price for the airline ticket for sure, but it’s all based on algorithms that are looking pretty deep at historical data on supply and demand.  It’s not somebody looking at a human being and deciding they look like a sucker while the next guy doesn’t. 

[jimmyjazz 45890]

Auto dealerships have always done that.  "What kind of monthly payment are you looking for?"  "Can I put you in touch with our Finance Manager?"  "Oh, it came that way from the factory."  The moment they smell that a customer is a bit naive, it's game on.

Things got a lot easier once the internet boom started making it possible to learn about dealer holdbacks, etc.  You just have to stand your ground, and then walk out when shit's not going your way.  I've had salespeople accuse me of taking food off their kids' table, I've had them literally try to sell me a car still on the boat that I had optioned with another dealer, I've had the song and dance about "why are you looking at a Ford here but a Subaru and a Toyota at other dealerships?  Those can't compare to a Ford!  It's not right!"  Motherfucker, I just want a daily driver for my wife, there are a dozen vehicles that will fit that bill, make me the best deal and I'll drive it off the lot in 30 minutes.

[fattyflattie 4639]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Auto dealerships have always done that.  "What kind of monthly payment are you looking for?"  "Can I put you in touch with our Finance Manager?"  "Oh, it came that way from the factory."  The moment they smell that a customer is a bit naive, it's game on.

Things got a lot easier once the internet boom started making it possible to learn about dealer holdbacks, etc.  You just have to stand your ground, and then walk out when shit's not going your way.  I've had salespeople accuse me of taking food off their kids' table, I've had them literally try to sell me a car still on the boat that I had optioned with another dealer, I've had the song and dance about "why are you looking at a Ford here but a Subaru and a Toyota at other dealerships?  Those can't compare to a Ford!  It's not right!"  Motherfucker, I just want a daily driver for my wife, there are a dozen vehicles that will fit that bill, make me the best deal and I'll drive it off the lot in 30 minutes.

Unfortunately it’s back in their court with this bullshit chip shortage. And when that gets sorted, they’ll just Jack the prices (and loan terms) up to where anyone can afford the payment. I posted the link in the other thread, but apparently it isn’t shit to have 1400-2700 in monthly notes.  Apparently it’s impossible to live without those massaging seats and starlit headliners. 

[jimmyjazz 45890]

I can't imagine car notes that big.  Just today I paid off a Toyota I had at 0.9%.  Paid the other one off a couple of months ago, same rate.  I mean, if you're gonna loan me $70K at 0.9% I'm gonna take it, but that was when pricing wasn't jacked through the roof and rates were near zero.  Cash only from here on out until things reset, which they may never do.  I have no compulsion to get rid of either of these cars, regardless, they run great and will for a long time.

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I can't imagine car notes that big.  Just today I paid off a Toyota I had at 0.9%.  Paid the other one off a couple of months ago, same rate.  I mean, if you're gonna loan me $70K at 0.9% I'm gonna take it, but that was when pricing wasn't jacked through the roof and rates were near zero.  Cash only from here on out until things reset, which they may never do.  I have no compulsion to get rid of either of these cars, regardless, they run great and will for a long time.

I’ve planned to do the same thing, but I think I’ll probably end up putting 50% down or so, and just having a reasonable note. All depends on the rates or what else life has going on, of course.  But I’m a 12-15 year keeper on a dependable vehicle type of guy.  I’ve been keeping a pretty close eye out for last year or so, but may end up just ordering something next year.  We just broke something like an 8 year no note streak last year; miss that for sure. Would help if my replacement didn’t cost 75k fucking dollars. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by fattyflattie

[gmr548 16576]

Below is a very, very lengthy article about "stealerships" and buying a car in today's market.  Worth the read if you are in the market,  note the add on strategy.
Last week I was presented a pricing worksheet by a dealer who attempted to overcharge me by $200 for State sales tax (.0625).   Silence when I questioned the figure,  left the dealership.
 
Ten people could go into a dealership and each pay a wildly different amount to buy the same exact vehicle.
Economists call this sort of pricing strategy "price discrimination." That's when, instead of charging everyone the same price, sellers charge people different prices based on their willingness to pay. In simpler terms, it means that the seller milks as much money as they can out of you. Not all dealerships engage in this pricing strategy, but many do it aggressively, often with snake oil-style salesmanship, deceptive marketing tactics, hidden fees, and overpriced add-ons, like floor mats, alarm systems, or anti-rust undercoating. Some consumers call the outfits that employ these tactics "stealerships."
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/08/30/1119715886/inside-the-rise-of-stealerships-and-the-shady-economics-of-car-buying
 
 
 

We’ve shopped around at several dealerships in the past week or so. Really my first time my first time dealing with that - my first car was a hand me down and the only vehicle I’d ever bought was from Carvana.

First dealership we went to advertised a great price, but when we were given a pricing sheet after our test drive, it had over $1,800 in add ons like upholstery protection, window tinting, LoJack, all that useless shit. We got them down to $300 and they acted like we were asking them to give us the car for free, it was like pulling teeth. We went to another appointment after, which was underwhelming, and begrudgingly decided to go with it because we needed a car. Called the salesman and was informed someone else was working on numbers. Car ended up selling. Have to imagine they pressed whoever bought it to eat well over $1,000 in nonsense fees by saying we were ready to buy. Don’t feel great about that.

Part of the reason we went with the car we did was that, after having spoke with the salesman over the phone and expressed my lack of enthusiasm for their particular set of bullshit dealer options (which he initially quoted something like $1,200-$1,500), they were already removed from the invoice when sat down after our test drive. I went line by line to make sure they weren’t hidden elsewhere, and they weren’t. That gesture went a long way, contrasted against the previous experience.

Unfortunately it’s back in their court with this bullshit chip shortage. And when that gets sorted, they’ll just Jack the prices (and loan terms) up to where anyone can afford the payment. I posted the link in the other thread, but apparently it isn’t shit to have 1400-2700 in monthly notes.  Apparently it’s impossible to live without those massaging seats and starlit headliners. 

“It isn’t shit to have a $1,400 month note” is exactly what the dealerships making these viral videos want to normalize. It absolutely isn’t normal, but if they can shock you with the outliers, a still absurd $750/month starts to not look so bad.

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

“It isn’t shit to have a $1,400 month note” is exactly what the dealerships making these viral videos want to normalize. It absolutely isn’t normal, but if they can shock you with the outliers, a still absurd $750/month starts to not look so bad.

I'm sure it'll work on the same folks that answer when they ask "what payment do I need to meet"?

[gmr548 16576]

I'm sure it'll work on the same folks that answer when they ask "what payment do I need to meet"?

Christ, don’t even get me started on how non-transparent they are when presenting the financing options. I’m in loan underwriting by trade, so fortunately I know exactly what to look for from the initial numbers to the loan docs, but it’s very easy to see how people who think they’re getting a good deal are actually getting railroaded.

[Sam Lin 3551]

On 8/31/2022 at 12:56 AM, Your Mom said:

Everybody pays a different price for the airline ticket for sure, but it’s all based on algorithms that are looking pretty deep at historical data on supply and demand.  It’s not somebody looking at a human being and deciding they look like a sucker while the next guy doesn’t. 

That's actually all the algorithms are doing. It's just a much more refined screwing than what car dealers do.

[WBT 20561]

1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

Christ, don’t even get me started on how non-transparent they are when presenting the financing options. I’m in loan underwriting by trade, so fortunately I know exactly what to look for from the initial numbers to the loan docs, but it’s very easy to see how people who think they’re getting a good deal are actually getting railroaded.

Walk in with one of these to set the tone

[Sandman 3403]

14 hours ago, gmr548 said:

“It isn’t shit to have a $1,400 month note” is exactly what the dealerships making these viral videos want to normalize. It absolutely isn’t normal, but if they can shock you with the outliers, a still absurd $750/month starts to not look so bad.

I just can't fathom having the mindset that thinks a payment this high is acceptable. I'm not some 1% guy that pays cash for my car, either. Shit, my mortgage isn't that high!

[DalTxHornFan 3097]

This is why I have always appreciated the CarMax business model.  They segregate the three business transactions.

1. The sale of your trade-in
2. The purchase of a car
3. The financing (if any) of said car

Traditional car dealers blur all of that shit up.

[Dahobbs 17526]

9 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

This is why I have always appreciated the CarMax business model.  They segregate the three business transactions.

1. The sale of your trade-in
2. The purchase of a car
3. The financing (if any) of said car

Traditional car dealers blur all of that shit up.

I've sold two cars to CarMax now. No experience with purchasing through them, but they do make sales pretty easy. 

[Sbbruin 21829]

On 8/30/2022 at 3:57 PM, jimmyjazz said:

I can't imagine car notes that big.  Just today I paid off a Toyota I had at 0.9%.  Paid the other one off a couple of months ago, same rate.  I mean, if you're gonna loan me $70K at 0.9% I'm gonna take it, but that was when pricing wasn't jacked through the roof and rates were near zero.  Cash only from here on out until things reset, which they may never do.  I have no compulsion to get rid of either of these cars, regardless, they run great and will for a long time.

When I bought my car in 2017, Infiniti had a 0.9% financing promotion, so I figured I'd take advantage of it.  When I went to go over the paperwork, it said 3.99%.  I was like, WTF dude?  He acted all surprised and revised it.  That dealership ended up getting sued for deceptive practices, closed the dealership, and it just reopened under new ownership.

 https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2017/03/los-angeles-based-sage-auto-group-will-pay-36-million-settle-ftc-charges

[gmr548 16576]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

my mortgage isn't that high!

Things I can't fathom as a millennial lolz

[Texas St. Armadillos 1381]

Are Hyundai's available for factory order (through the dealership)?  Yeah, I know it takes 6 months, but can you get factory ordered at MSRP?

[CooterBrown 18004]

Been looking for a new Crosstrek for my kid. They are impossible to find. You can order one with 3 months out but Austin Subaru has a market adjustment of +$2,000.  Found an unclaimed Crosstrek arriving at West Houston Subaru in October and they do not mark up cars above MSRP so I bought it over the phone in about 3 minutes.

 

[Jersey Man10 3528]

Been looking for a new Crosstrek for my kid. They are impossible to find. You can order one with 3 months out but Austin Subaru has a market adjustment of +$2,000.  Found an unclaimed Crosstrek arriving at West Houston Subaru in October and they do not mark up cars above MSRP so I bought it over the phone in about 3 minutes.
 

Austin and Georgetown Subaru have huge markups it’s ridiculous. I ended up driving 4 hours to Corinth Subaru up past Dallas for my Forester instead.

[CooterBrown 18004]

Austin and Georgetown Subaru have huge markups it’s ridiculous. I ended up driving 4 hours to Corinth Subaru up past Dallas for my Forester instead.

When the Houston guy noticed my area code, he immediately asked if I was avoiding the markup. Yep. I’ll book a cheap one way flight and drive it home.

[KingBobo81 535]

 

Austin and Georgetown Subaru have huge markups it’s ridiculous. I ended up driving 4 hours to Corinth Subaru up past Dallas for my Forester instead.

I  had a different experience - I just bought a 2022 Outback from Subaru Georgetown for MSRP a couple weeks ago after Austin quoted me a markup of several thousand dollars. - they would have let me factory order a 2023 (also for MSRP) if I wanted.

[torre 1285]

WSJ article only mentions Ford and GM but others likely face same issues.    Looks like higher prices will persist.

(tl:dr:   if buying a vehicle at present time and near future be prepared to pony up)

 

Ford Motor Co. F 1.43%▲ on Monday warned third-quarter earnings would be affected by about $1 billion in higher-than-anticipated supplier costs and parts shortages that have led to unfinished vehicles it couldn’t sell during the period.

The Dearborn, Mich., auto maker reaffirmed its year-end guidance for 2022, projecting adjusted operating results for the third quarter would fall between $1.4 billion and $1.7 billion.

Ford’s stock was down nearly 5% in after-hours trading.

Ford said it expects to have about 40,000 to 45,000 vehicles in inventory at the end of the quarter that are awaiting parts and can’t be delivered to dealerships—a figure that is higher than expected. Those vehicles, many of them higher-margin trucks and SUVs, are expected to be completed and sold in the fourth quarter, the company said

Additionally, based on recent negotiations with suppliers, Ford said it is paying more for parts and materials to account for the effects of inflation. The higher payments added about $1 billion in unexpected costs in the third quarter, the company said. Ford said in July it was facing inflationary pressures that would affect a range of costs, totaling about $3 billion for the year.

Ford has previously guided to adjusted earnings before interest and taxes of between $11.5 billion and $12.5 billion for full year 2022.

The company’s notice is another indication that the supply-chain disruptions that have hindered the industry for more than a year now are continuing to weigh on auto-sector earnings.

Other car companies are also struggling to restock dealerships, citing shortages of semiconductors and other critical parts that are needed to assemble cars and trucks.

General Motors Co. said this summer it was unable to deliver nearly 100,000 vehicles to dealers due to parts shortages, including a lack of computer chips. GM posted a 40% decline in net income in the second quarter, hurt by a loss in China, as well as continued supply-chain snarls.

Ford’s sales growth has outpaced competitors in recent months, mostly because its dealership inventory had been depleted in the prior year due to a factory fire in Japan at a critical computer-chip maker. Ford’s U.S. sales rose 27% in August, in contrast to a 5% decline for the broader auto industry.

Inflationary pressures have pushed up raw-material costs, and Ford has raised sticker prices on some popular models, such as the electric Mustang Mach-E SUV and F-150 Lightning truck.

Ford’s earnings have been helped by buyers willing to pay record prices for new vehicles because of limited car and truck availability. In the second quarter, the auto maker’s net income rose nearly 19% over the same-year period.

Ford Warns Parts Shortages, Higher Supplier Costs Are Expected to Affect Earnings - WSJ

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

On 9/1/2022 at 1:02 PM, Sbbruin said:

When I bought my car in 2017, Infiniti had a 0.9% financing promotion, so I figured I'd take advantage of it.  When I went to go over the paperwork, it said 3.99%.  I was like, WTF dude?  He acted all surprised and revised it.  That dealership ended up getting sued for deceptive practices, closed the dealership, and it just reopened under new ownership.

 https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2017/03/los-angeles-based-sage-auto-group-will-pay-36-million-settle-ftc-charges

Same thing happened to me but different dealership. GM was offering 0% for 72 months. We agreed on a price and then we got the paper with the monthly payment and it wasn't price/72. I was like, ummm that's wrong. They acted all shocked and emerged from the "bosses" office 30 seconds later with the correct payments.  Never shopped there again but that dealer ha been sold 3 times in 10 yrs

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

Also, I'll caveat this with "first world problems." I ordered a 2023 Corvette yesterday but I'll probably get a 2024. Build times are 12+ months.  If you want a used one, you can have it today but you'll pay $20K more than new.

Paying MSRP which usually wouldn't something I do, but these days...

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2732]

I've actually received a below MSRP order via the Fleet program.  Surprised at that.  

[jimmyjazz 45890]

1 hour ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Also, I'll caveat this with "first world problems." I ordered a 2023 Corvette yesterday but I'll probably get a 2024. Build times are 12+ months. 

Nice car.  Color?

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Nice car.  Color?

Amplify Orange.

[Murfdogg21 4412]

I’m hopeful they have the microchip capacity issues worked out (and society still exists) by the time my Bronco reservation number finally gets call in approximately 2025 😆 

Broncos are absolutely part of what was being referenced in the article above. There is some infamous train yard in Detroit with thousands of 2021….errr 2022 (….errr 2023?) Broncos sitting there complete but without chips. People with reservations and PO’s can go stare at their car through the chain link fence and visit on holidays. 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2732]

Same with Tahoe and Suburbans by our house in Midlothian.
Massive field with probably a 1000 or more just sitting there.

[Bogeywon 2519]

On 9/24/2022 at 6:42 AM, Murfdogg21 said:

I’m hopeful they have the microchip capacity issues worked out (and society still exists) by the time my Bronco reservation number finally gets call in approximately 2025 😆 

Broncos are absolutely part of what was being referenced in the article above. There is some infamous train yard in Detroit with thousands of 2021….errr 2022 (….errr 2023?) Broncos sitting there complete but without chips. People with reservations and PO’s can go stare at their car through the chain link fence and visit on holidays. 

I live in michigan and drive by the plants and yards these cars are in. It’s every manufacturer out right now. The acres of brand new cars no chips. Also it’s like the movie gung ho lol

[Wally Fairway 5541]

Google where is Ford storing trucks and you get things like this

 

Broncos

 

GM large SUV's around Lansing - I drive by these several times a week

 

[Incredulity 11654]

This will end well

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Ordered a new Ford truck a month ago.  No idea when I'll actually get it.  

[fattyflattie 4639]

Think I’m going to pull the trigger and put in an order once this all sorts out.  I’m not excited about a truck that just sat for 9 months, tbh.   Until then I’ll limp along I suppose. 

[jimmyjazz 45890]

Our older son ordered a small Toyota that was "on the boat" about 10 days ago.  It showed up a little late, but it did show up within a week.