Buying a New Vehicle in this environment

[Covri 6253]

4 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I could do that, but I'm starting to feel the heat about having procrastinated so long. In my defense, the waiting so far seems to have been beneficial from an inventory and pricing standpoint.

Yeah, I managed to get out of it for four years because of Covid and inventory and surge prices. Her vehicle was starting to get it the point we would have to make decisions on repairs so we finally gave in. The fact that we got 4k on the trade in of a 2010 Nissan murano surprised me as well.

[chainsaw 9876]

18 hours ago, Covri said:

Yeah, I managed to get out of it for four years because of Covid and inventory and surge prices. Her vehicle was starting to get it the point we would have to make decisions on repairs so we finally gave in. The fact that we got 4k on the trade in of a 2010 Nissan murano surprised me as well.

I don't think I need any repairs on the current car. I'm strongly leaning toward waiting a few months for better deals. In the meantime I can set up a financing plan. I don't think rates will go down but if they do even better.

[KYHorn 17195]

I've never bought from a dealer. I prefer Facebook marketplace (and previously Craigslist) and having a mechanic look at it before buying along with a car fax. I've had pretty good success over the last 15 years narrowing down to one or two vehicles within a range of years, milage, and price and then just waiting for the right one. I don't care much about cars beyond their utility and can't imagine paying the new vehicle prices I've seen for a car.

On the lookout for a 2017-2020 Outback in my area, but hoping to see the prices drop a bit in the next few months. I'm shooting for around $18k with 40-60k milage. The number of private sellers who are pricing their vehicle far over KBB value has been really surprising. I assume they're either testing the waters in case someone wants it that bad or they're still living in the COVID bubble world.

[chainsaw 9876]

42 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

I've never bought from a dealer. I prefer Facebook marketplace (and previously Craigslist) and having a mechanic look at it before buying along with a car fax. I've had pretty good success over the last 15 years narrowing down to one or two vehicles within a range of years, milage, and price and then just waiting for the right one. I don't care much about cars beyond their utility and can't imagine paying the new vehicle prices I've seen for a car.

On the lookout for a 2017-2020 Outback in my area, but hoping to see the prices drop a bit in the next few months. I'm shooting for around $18k with 40-60k milage. The number of private sellers who are pricing their vehicle far over KBB value has been really surprising. I assume they're either testing the waters in case someone wants it that bad or they're still living in the COVID bubble world.

That would be a smart option if i wanted a pre-owned car.

[KYHorn 17195]

32 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That would be a smart option if i wanted a pre-owned car.

Just to be clear, my comment was intended to be independent of yours. Wasn't directed to or critical of you at all.

Edited March 11 by KYHorn

[chainsaw 9876]

Just now, KYHorn said:

Just to be clear, my comment was independent of yours. Wasn't directed to you at all.

Yeah I should have been clearer that I wasn't assuming anything from what you were saying. I just wanted to agree that avoiding dealers is the way to go.

[billfromlaketravis 11524]

Will dealerships knock something off if I pay the full amount with a cashier’s check? Or do they not give a shit because they get their money anyway/make much more off of financing? 

[KYHorn 17195]

24 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Will dealerships knock something off if I pay the full amount with a cashier’s check? Or do they not give a shit because they get their money anyway/make much more off of financing? 

I think this is one of the few areas where cash isn't king. It's my under understanding that you'll often pay more with cash

[chainsaw 9876]

47 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Will dealerships knock something off if I pay the full amount with a cashier’s check? Or do they not give a shit because they get their money anyway/make much more off of financing? 

They more about getting origination commissions from the finance company than they care about actually getting cars off the lot.

[WBT 20670]

3 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Will dealerships knock something off if I pay the full amount with a cashier’s check? Or do they not give a shit because they get their money anyway/make much more off of financing? 

 

2 hours ago, chainsaw said:

They more about getting origination commissions from the finance company than they care about actually getting cars off the lot.

I bought a new 4Runner in December.  Told them I wanted to pay cash but they gave me a better price to finance with no early payoff penalty.

[The Ace of Aces 5194]

Any Lexus dealer salespeople here? If so DM me, I very well might buy from you even though I’m ~1,700 miles away

Edited March 12 by The Ace of Aces

[JGrayDBU 345]

 I'm partial to Hyundai for some reason, and I have lots of time on my hands here above the Arctic Circle this week, during spring break, -33 degrees in the morning, and I expanded my search just now and found a new 2024 Hyundai Tucson for 25k, $6500  under MSRP..huh?  Attraction of Tucson would be an 8 speed tranny instead of the CVT which is on the smaller sedans I've been looking at.  Elantra is the favorite, due to the 40+ gas mileage, but for instant equity of $6500 not including TTL and any dealer add-ons, I could see driving a Tucson.  Wife already drives a Kona, and younger son is buying the 2016 Accent this summer, under market value.   

Anybody have experience with the maintenance on the CVTs?  I'm guessing the maintenance on the 8-speed is a lot easier and cheaper.  

[Dish Boggett 67]

4 hours ago, JGrayDBU said:

 I'm partial to Hyundai for some reason, and I have lots of time on my hands here above the Arctic Circle this week, during spring break, -33 degrees in the morning, and I expanded my search just now and found a new 2024 Hyundai Tucson for 25k, $6500  under MSRP..huh? 

Does it come with heated seats?

[bschoolprof 6273]

14 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Will dealerships knock something off if I pay the full amount with a cashier’s check? Or do they not give a shit because they get their money anyway/make much more off of financing? 

It's been answered above, but I'll elaborate more on the why. Ignoring covid-era inventory-shortage mania, they often make very little on the car sale itself due to competition and price transparency on the internet.  Sometimes as little as several hundred dollars.  They have very high margins on financing: 1) they will often mark up the interest rate from the bank (called the buy rate); 2) they get origination commissions/fees from the bank for facilitating the loan; 3) they often get folks to buy all sorts of shit in the finance office, like extended warranties, tire protection packages, etc., that have huge markups.  Consumers have very little idea what the fair market price of these products should be (because, unlike the car, they've done no research on these items), and the dealers won't quote you the full price, just what it does to your monthly payment, making it sound far cheaper than it is.  Almost all of this can be bought third party after the sale is over and proper research can be done.  Always refuse the shit they try to sell you in the finance office.  

[JGrayDBU 345]

3 hours ago, Dish Boggett said:

Does it come with heated seats?

ha! it should right?  I think it does, but truth is I'm moving back to Texas after 6 years in the bush of Alaska.  Just woke up and it is a ridiculous -38 degrees now.  I'm so jealous of the teachers who traveled to Anchorage to enjoy the warmth of 30 degrees above 0 for the week.  

[topochico 1049]

8 hours ago, JGrayDBU said:

 I'm partial to Hyundai for some reason, and I have lots of time on my hands here above the Arctic Circle this week, during spring break, -33 degrees in the morning, and I expanded my search just now and found a new 2024 Hyundai Tucson for 25k, $6500  under MSRP..huh?  Attraction of Tucson would be an 8 speed tranny instead of the CVT which is on the smaller sedans I've been looking at.  Elantra is the favorite, due to the 40+ gas mileage, but for instant equity of $6500 not including TTL and any dealer add-ons, I could see driving a Tucson.  Wife already drives a Kona, and younger son is buying the 2016 Accent this summer, under market value.   

Anybody have experience with the maintenance on the CVTs?  I'm guessing the maintenance on the 8-speed is a lot easier and cheaper.  

I have a Subaru Outback with a CVT. Maintenance has really been no different than any automatic transmission I’ve had in the past. Fluid was checked every 30,000 miles and replaced at 100,000. Cost to service the CVT seemed to be on par with automatic transmission expenses. I know Nissan and Audi had some 1st gen CVT reliability problems, but I think most other manufacturers are doing ok with them. I’m hoping to go 200,000 with this car. 

[WBT 20670]

46 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

3) they often get folks to buy all sorts of shit in the finance office, like extended warranties, tire protection packages, etc., that have huge markups.  Consumers have very little idea what the fair market price of these products should be (because, unlike the car, they've done no research on these items), and the dealers won't quote you the full price, just what it does to your monthly payment, making it sound far cheaper than it is.  Almost all of this can be bought third party after the sale is over and proper research can be done.  Always refuse the shit they try to sell you in the finance office.  

Good point.  Either that has changed in the 15 years since I last bought a car or I had just forgotten.  At the point I went into the finance guy's office I thought everything was agreed and I just had to sign the paperwork.  He immediately went into adding on an extended warranty, prepaying maintenance (wtf), and maybe some other stuff.  After my initial befuddlement that he was also trying to sell me on new shit, I had to decline all of that a couple of times before he moved on.  When in doubt at a car dealership, just say no.

[chainsaw 9876]

39 minutes ago, WBT said:

He immediately went into adding on an extended warranty, prepaying maintenance (wtf), and maybe some other stuff.  After my initial befuddlement that he was also trying to sell me on new shit, I had to decline all of that a couple of times before he moved on.

This right here is exactly what I want to avoid if possible.

[CooterBrown 18031]

On 3/11/2024 at 5:35 PM, billfromlaketravis said:

Will dealerships knock something off if I pay the full amount with a cashier’s check? Or do they not give a shit because they get their money anyway/make much more off of financing? 

Never tell them you're paying with cash until you've settled on a price. Act like you'll finance with them.  Then punch them in the gunt.

[Captainant 27797]

4 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Never tell them you're paying with cash until you've settled on a price. Act like you'll finance with them.  Then punch them in the gunt.

Sometimes if you finance through the dealership they'll give you a better base price and kill you on the rate. Just read the loan paperwork to make sure there's no penalty for early payoff (and that origination fees are reasonable), and zero it out once you park the car in your driveway

[Biff Tannen 45745]

On 3/12/2024 at 9:30 AM, WBT said:

Good point.  Either that has changed in the 15 years since I last bought a car or I had just forgotten.  At the point I went into the finance guy's office I thought everything was agreed and I just had to sign the paperwork.  He immediately went into adding on an extended warranty, prepaying maintenance (wtf), and maybe some other stuff.  After my initial befuddlement that he was also trying to sell me on new shit, I had to decline all of that a couple of times before he moved on.  When in doubt at a car dealership, just say no.

You tell them you'll walk out of there right now!

[52-80 19259]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:39 PM, bschoolprof said:

It's been answered above, but I'll elaborate more on the why. Ignoring covid-era inventory-shortage mania, they often make very little on the car sale itself due to competition and price transparency on the internet.  Sometimes as little as several hundred dollars.  They have very high margins on financing: 1) they will often mark up the interest rate from the bank (called the buy rate); 2) they get origination commissions/fees from the bank for facilitating the loan; 3) they often get folks to buy all sorts of shit in the finance office, like extended warranties, tire protection packages, etc., that have huge markups.  Consumers have very little idea what the fair market price of these products should be (because, unlike the car, they've done no research on these items), and the dealers won't quote you the full price, just what it does to your monthly payment, making it sound far cheaper than it is.  Almost all of this can be bought third party after the sale is over and proper research can be done.  Always refuse the shit they try to sell you in the finance office.  

I bought 1 car new in the US and they played this exact same game with me. 

We “agreed” on the vehicle purchase price. I wanted the manufacturers advertised 0.99% financing deal, so the “salesman” handed me off to the “finance” guy, who incrementally wanted to add looney options and all that bullshit, and then rolled onto the “how much do you want to pay per month” game.

With each item I refused he walked away for 10 minutes with to fake-check “with the manager”.  

The absolute zaniest part of the ordeal was when I said I want the national rate advertised by the manufacturer, and he said there was no such thing. And when I challenged him that it was on their and the manufacturers public website, he reluctantly browsed to it, and then ZIPPED through the part of the page where the terms were specified.  “you see, it says nothing on the site”. 

It was the most stupefyingly childish negotiation tactic I couldnt even have conceived of. I wanted to just walked off, but because I had *already* wasted my time from the previous games, it was a sort of marginal/brinksmanship thing that kept me there to close on the whole damn thing. Plus the car was effectively free because I bought it to qualify for employer-car-subsidy. 
**
Another big plus for Teslas direct to consumer model: buy the car at fixed price on the web. No middlemen. No funny stuff. Same price for every customer at time of purchase. 

[fattyflattie 4638]

On 3/13/2024 at 8:14 AM, Captainant said:

Sometimes if you finance through the dealership they'll give you a better base price and kill you on the rate. Just read the loan paperwork to make sure there's no penalty for early payoff (and that origination fees are reasonable), and zero it out once you park the car in your driveway

This is the way. They typically have a note that says you can’t pay off for X amount of months, but they’ve always accepted a payoff of balance after 30 days.  So get the finance perks, wait 30 days, and stroke a check for the balance. 

[TwiceHorn 31539]

On 3/12/2024 at 12:53 AM, JGrayDBU said:

 I'm partial to Hyundai for some reason, and I have lots of time on my hands here above the Arctic Circle this week, during spring break, -33 degrees in the morning, and I expanded my search just now and found a new 2024 Hyundai Tucson for 25k, $6500  under MSRP..huh?  Attraction of Tucson would be an 8 speed tranny instead of the CVT which is on the smaller sedans I've been looking at.  Elantra is the favorite, due to the 40+ gas mileage, but for instant equity of $6500 not including TTL and any dealer add-ons, I could see driving a Tucson.  Wife already drives a Kona, and younger son is buying the 2016 Accent this summer, under market value.   

Anybody have experience with the maintenance on the CVTs?  I'm guessing the maintenance on the 8-speed is a lot easier and cheaper.  

Not an authority, but the CVTs I have read about have been pretty disastrous in terms of driving experience and maintenance, even if warranted.  Seems a technology not quite ready for prime time.

[Captainant 27797]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

Not an authority, but the CVTs I have read about have been pretty disastrous in terms of driving experience and maintenance, even if warranted.  Seems a technology not quite ready for prime time.

IIRC the main problem is that the chain that's the primary means of converting RPM's is quite prone to stretching over time and reaches the limits of the tensioners, causing a major service to replace the chain

[JGrayDBU 345]

so, damned if I do and damned if I don't.  Get the CVT with the high MPG and take the risk of CVT failure "chain failure?" or get a slightly higher priced car with lower MPG and an 8 speed transmission;

or the wildcard.  Take a serious chance and buy a 10+ year old car from an auction company that auctions off government agency cars - I would be comfortable doing this not with a large 4 X 4, but smaller trucks- I found one the other day - 2013 Nissan Frontier - looked good, definitely not a police cruiser- but I bet the county or whomever is selling does not let you take the truck to get it inspected.  It sold for $6500, which I would be comfortable paying for that truck, assuming the vehicle had been serviced at a reasonable rate.  This one had reasonable miles, a little over 100,000. 

 

[Captainant 27797]

10 minutes ago, JGrayDBU said:

so, damned if I do and damned if I don't.  Get the CVT with the high MPG and take the risk of CVT failure "chain failure?" or get a slightly higher priced car with lower MPG and an 8 speed transmission;

IMO, if you're buying new and plan to keep the car past the age of it's note it's usually worth it to spring for the extended warranty. In my experience, cars start to get gremlins around 70k miles and a transmission repair on a "non wearable part" like the chain is usually covered (read your Ts and Cs though). 

Have you driven a CVT car yet? It's a different experience behind the wheel, and I found that I preferred a stepped transmission to a CVT. The biggest reason they're so efficient is that they're tuned to always be on the power curve of your engine, but that also means it doesn't really like to go high RPM for a punch of speed like you get from downshifting a gear or two 

Edited March 17 by Captainant

[JGrayDBU 345]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

IMO, if you're buying new and plan to keep the car past the age of it's note it's usually worth it to spring for the extended warranty. In my experience, cars start to get gremlins around 70k miles and a transmission repair on a "non wearable part" like the chain is usually covered (read your Ts and Cs though). 

Have you driven a CVT car yet? It's a different experience behind the wheel, and I found that I preferred a stepped transmission to a CVT. The biggest reason they're so efficient is that they're tuned to always be on the power curve of your engine, but that also means it doesn't really like to go high RPM for a punch of speed like you get from downshifting a gear or two 

Yes, I own a CVT, 2022 Hyundai Kona.  No problems driving it, first new car for the wife and I since 2008 Mazda5.  I'm older now, so I baby the accelerator, trying to get the high mpg.  Haven't even looked at manual yet to see when tranny is supposed to be serviced.  

[TwiceHorn 31539]

5 hours ago, Captainant said:

IMO, if you're buying new and plan to keep the car past the age of it's note it's usually worth it to spring for the extended warranty. In my experience, cars start to get gremlins around 70k miles and a transmission repair on a "non wearable part" like the chain is usually covered (read your Ts and Cs though). 

Have you driven a CVT car yet? It's a different experience behind the wheel, and I found that I preferred a stepped transmission to a CVT. The biggest reason they're so efficient is that they're tuned to always be on the power curve of your engine, but that also means it doesn't really like to go high RPM for a punch of speed like you get from downshifting a gear or two 

Is it the power band or the highest "gear" it will tolerate without slippage? The aim for mileage is usually lowest rpms that will keep the thing moving at the "selected" speed.  For an NA engine those two do not usually coincide and for a forced intake, the power bamd usually involves boost and that sure ain't no way to save gas. Not sure they attempt CVT with turbos. 

[topochico 1049]

33 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Is it the power band or the highest "gear" it will tolerate without slippage? The aim for mileage is usually lowest rpms that will keep the thing moving at the "selected" speed.  For an NA engine those two do not usually coincide and for a forced intake, the power bamd usually involves boost and that sure ain't no way to save gas. Not sure they attempt CVT with turbos. 

Subaru WRX and the vehicles with XT engines are CVT and turbo. 
Well, most of the WRX’s are manual transmission, but otherwise it’s a CVT. 

[Deej 76941]

So glad I drive a car with a manual transmission