Catholic Bishops vote to deny Biden and liberals communion

[Orale 1087]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/18/us/targeting-biden-catholic-bishops-advance-controversial-communion-plan.html

Quote

The Roman Catholic bishops of the United States, flouting a warning from the Vatican, have overwhelmingly voted to draft a statement on the sacrament of the Eucharist, advancing a political push by conservative bishops to deny President Biden communion because of his support of abortion rights.

The decision, made public on Friday afternoon, is aimed at the nation’s second Catholic president, the most religiously observant commander in chief since Jimmy Carter, and exposes bitter divisions in American Catholicism. It capped three days of contentious debate at a virtual June meeting of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. The measure was approved by a vote of 73 percent in favor and 24 percent opposed.

In other news, religions reaffirm the decisions of tens of millions to leave organized religion in recent years. I applaud this brave move. The faster we relegate religion to the dustbin of history the better. 

[Js1 85342]

The exit polling was somewhere between 51/47 Biden and 50/49 Trump on the Catholic vote.  So, as usual, leadership looks out of step with the mainstream. 

[Asithappens 974]

Good.

This and the bullshit over at the southern baptists just keeps telling us how fucked up religion is. And we need a lot of reminding.

[UpperWestside 6166]

The US finally gets a 2nd Catholic president and they then do everything they can to ex-communicate him from the church. Empathy and compassion is not a strong suit of this branch of Christianity. When I used to occasionally stop by for a service at St. Patrick’s Cathedral before the pandemic there was a minister there named Donald Haggerty. He was the one person on their ministerial staff that made it a point to remind everyone of homosexuality being a sin and how Catholics are set apart from other Christians. He seemed like a guy who was a very tortured soul that probably did not have any friends in that building. 

[Brisketexan 105145]

6 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Good.

This and the bullshit over at the southern baptists just keeps telling us how fucked up religion is. And we need a lot of reminding.

What's FASCINATING (he says sarcastically) is how the polling of "religious adherents" almost perfectly tracks the political divide, without any regard for the actual theology of the adherents.  The Catholics are as divided as our society as a whole.  Seems like the Baptists are, too.  I know the Presbyterians have been.  And the Methodists are dealing with it....and on and on.

In other words, most all "people of faith" choose what they want to believe and do politically with ZERO guidance from their faith at all.  They follow their politics, not their faith -- they just claim that their faith happens to match their politics, after they've decided what their politics are.

Which I get.  It's really hard to actually dig into matters of faith and realize "holy shit.....if I'm gonna take this faith stuff seriously, it's really hard, and most of it is some version of 'don't be a selfish dick,' and I'm not willing to do that." 

I posted it in the other thread, but I wouldn't hold my breath for these same bishops to make similar statements about leaders who take hardline anti-immigrant stances......

Quote

Exodus 12:49 and Leviticus 24:22 – “There shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you.”

Exodus 22:21 – Moses gives God’s law:  “You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.”

Leviticus 19:33-34 and 24:22 – When the alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt:  I am the Lord your God.”

Deuteronomy 6:10-13 – The people of Israel are made aware that the land had come to them as a gift from God and they were to remember that they were once aliens.

Deuteronomy 10:18-19 – “For the Lord your God…loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing.  You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”

Jeremiah 7:5-7 – “If you do not oppress the alien…then I will dwell with you in this place…”

Jeremiah 22:3-5 – Do no wrong or violence to the alien.

Ezekiel 47:21-22 – The aliens shall be to you as citizens, and shall also be allotted an inheritance.

Zechariah 7:8-10 – Do not oppress the alien.

Malachi 3:5 – The messenger will bear witness against those who thrust aside the alien.

Matthew 25:31-46 – “…I was a stranger and you welcomed me.”

Romans 12:13 – “Mark of the true Christian: “…Extend hospitality to strangers…”

Hebrews 13:1-2 – “…show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels…”

....[and there's plenty more]

.....ahem.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Brisketexan

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

I blame that asshole Constantine I 

[Orale 1087]

Or their anti-war stance. Or healthcare for all. Or food for all. Or serving the poor. Or treating others as they'd treat Jesus. Fun!

[Brisketexan 105145]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I blame that asshole Constantine I 

It all went south after Nicea, man.

[Brisketexan 105145]

Just now, Orale said:

Or their anti-war stance. Or healthcare for all. Or food for all. Or serving the poor. Or treating others as they'd treat Jesus. Fun!

Yeah.....the running theme is that American Christians aren't very.....Christian.

[NWBuck 8568]

 

[Brisketexan 105145]

2 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

 

Yep.

[mchookem 16336]

i learned on Surly that actual instructions for how to induce an abortion are provided in the bible (Numbers 5:11-31 i know cuz i wrote that shit down for future reference lol) along with suggestions for when to do it, which is pretty much if your wife is a whore. 

so what's the problem? 🙄

Edited June 18, 2021 by mchookem

[Willfully Horn 8017]

2 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i learned on Surly that actual instructions for how to induce an abortion are provided in the bible (Numbers 5:11-31 i know cuz i wrote that shit down for future reference lol) along with suggestions for when to do it, which is pretty much if your wife is a whore. 

so what's the problem? 🙄

The problem is that women can’t be allowed to make the decision. 

[Aqua Buddha 14597]

That's the first step toward them being what the Baptists are now.  Tens years from now, their churches will be filled with old white guys and wonder what happened.

What's to stop Biden's personal priest from giving him communion?

Edited June 18, 2021 by Aqua Buddha

[TwiceHorn 31481]

3 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

That's the first step toward them being what the Baptists are now.  Tens years from now, their churches will be filled with old white guys and wonder what happened.

What's to stop Biden's personal priest from giving him communion?

Well, and hispanics or latinos or whatever the proper word is these days.  I keep hearing bits and pieces that evidence that hispanics are going to be a pretty reliable socially conservative voting bloc for a while.

[Guest Lobo]

Wait, so it's to deny communion to anybody that supports abortion rights, or just the President?  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

I was denied communion once at a Catholic wedding because I didn’t know their secret “Amen” password.  I was blessed instead. Kind of a bummer. 

[Post Oak 20213]

The kiddie fuckers don't like me.  Good.

-Joe [probably]

[Aqua Buddha 14597]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

Wait, so it's to deny communion to anybody that supports abortion rights, or just the President?  

Just all Democrats.  Everyone else is welcome.

[Js1 85342]

2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Wait, so it's to deny communion to anybody that supports abortion rights, or just the President?  

They’ve been trying to get it denied to Pelosi for a long ass time 

[Js1 85342]

 

[Guest Lobo]

7 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Just all Democrats.  Everyone else is welcome.

Fucking wonderful.  Wife and I were just talking the other night about going back to in-person mass at her Church with the kids in the next couple weeks.  I don't go up for communion since I am not Catholic.  Nobody ever asked me about it, which I appreciated.  But going back after 17 months, now when I don't go up---people will likely jump to the conclusion that I'm on some kinda pro-choice watch list in the diocese or some shit.  And just about every Catholic Republican politician in Austin goes to her church, and a handful of Democrats, too.  So this is gonna be a fucking hoot now with most of the congregation watching to see which of those D's goes up and who stays seated.  

Because that's obviously what Jesus wanted during the one hour a week we're all together before heading back to our team clubhouses.  

Edited June 18, 2021 by Lobo

[Satchel 6938]

20 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

That's the first step toward them being what the Baptists are now.  Tens years from now, their churches will be filled with old white guys and wonder what happened.

What's to stop Biden's personal priest from giving him communion?

Nothing. Biden will receive Communion anytime he wants.

[Pato del Muerto 52499]

I was feverishly scrolling down to make a comment about which catholic rules can be ignored and still get communion. I see it’s been covered pretty well. 
State sanctioned murder is ok, pedophilia ok. 
I’m sure Jesus is proud. 

[workswithseed 2109]

40 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It all went south after Nicea, man.

You know it's bad when Santa punches a man.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

53 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

 

There are whole books devoted to the instruments of torture devised by the Catholics during the Middle Ages. I was raised in the Anabaptist tradition and their lore is full of stories about early church leaders getting burned at the stake by the Catholics. At St. Lambert’s Cathedral in Münster there still hang three cages that once held the mutilated corpses of three Anabaptist rebels.

Edited June 18, 2021 by WhatTheBuck

[Post Oak 20213]

50 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

This shouldn't be confusing to him.  Disappointing, yeah.  But he hasn't been paying attention if this is confusing 

[Guest]

I actually agree with at least part of Biden’s stance on abortion. I don’t believe in it on a personal level; but I don’t think we should be spending political/ legislative effort in trying to make it illegal either.

 

My own take: Don’t have abortions if you disagree with them. Raise kids who believe the same way. If someone believes abortion is OK, and a very significant portion of society believes it is OK, then do what you think you need to do.

I know for some it is about saving the unborn, and I do not disagree with their reasons.  I think the pursuit and harassment of women seeking abortions is wrong. I do not think Roe v Wade will ever be rescinded. It doesn’t please me, but I just think that’s how it’s going to be.  Make your change a different way, is my take.

[Satchel 6938]

Here’s what can happen when critical life impacting decisions become the exclusive province of a bunch of old unmarried men. It should be noted that Archbishop Sobrinho supported the excommunication of everybody involved except the rapist:

 

VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI has accepted the resignation of the Brazilian archbishop at the center of a controversy over excommunications related to the case of an abortion performed on a 9-year-old rape victim.
t
tThe pope accepted the resignation of Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho of Olinda and Recife July 1, the day after the archbishop's 76th birthday. Under canon law, bishops must submit their resignations when they turn 75.
t
tAt the same time, 62-year-old Bishop Fernando Saburido of Sobral, Brazil, was named as his replacement. With the appointment, he automatically becomes an archbishop.
t
tIn early March doctors at a hospital in Recife performed an abortion on the girl, who was pregnant with twins, weighed a little more than 66 pounds and reportedly had been raped repeatedly by her stepfather from the time she was 6 years old. Abortion in Brazil is illegal except in cases of rape or if the mother's life is in danger.
t
tInterviewed by the media after the abortion, Archbishop Sobrinho noted that abortion always was a sin and that, according to canon law, anyone participating in the abortion -- including the girl's mother and her doctors -- would automatically incur excommunication.
t
tHe told a newspaper that while it was true the child ran health risks if she continued the pregnancy, "the end does not justify the means. The good aim of saving her life cannot justify the killing of two other lives."
t
tIn the midst of expressions of outrage from around the world over what appeared to be a lack of pastoral concern and compassion for the girl, the head of the Pontifical Academy for Life said the church's first reaction should have been to minister to the girl.
tThe girl "should have been defended, hugged and held tenderly to help her feel that we were all on her side," said Archbishop Rino Fisichella, head of the academy.

The Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife then issued a statement saying, "All of us ... treated the pregnant girl and her family with extreme charity and tenderness. ... All efforts were focused on saving all three lives.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/bishop-who-spoke-about-girls-abortion-resigns

 

[tx 3 putt 76963]

the us catholic church can get bent until they out EVERY mother fucking child molesting priest. 

[Nivek 16932]

1 hour ago, Satchel said:

Here’s what can happen when critical life impacting decisions become the exclusive province of a bunch of old unmarried men. It should be noted that Archbishop Sobrinho supported the excommunication of everybody involved except the rapist:

 

VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI has accepted the resignation of the Brazilian archbishop at the center of a controversy over excommunications related to the case of an abortion performed on a 9-year-old rape victim.
t
tThe pope accepted the resignation of Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho of Olinda and Recife July 1, the day after the archbishop's 76th birthday. Under canon law, bishops must submit their resignations when they turn 75.
t
tAt the same time, 62-year-old Bishop Fernando Saburido of Sobral, Brazil, was named as his replacement. With the appointment, he automatically becomes an archbishop.
t
tIn early March doctors at a hospital in Recife performed an abortion on the girl, who was pregnant with twins, weighed a little more than 66 pounds and reportedly had been raped repeatedly by her stepfather from the time she was 6 years old. Abortion in Brazil is illegal except in cases of rape or if the mother's life is in danger.
t
tInterviewed by the media after the abortion, Archbishop Sobrinho noted that abortion always was a sin and that, according to canon law, anyone participating in the abortion -- including the girl's mother and her doctors -- would automatically incur excommunication.
t
tHe told a newspaper that while it was true the child ran health risks if she continued the pregnancy, "the end does not justify the means. The good aim of saving her life cannot justify the killing of two other lives."
t
tIn the midst of expressions of outrage from around the world over what appeared to be a lack of pastoral concern and compassion for the girl, the head of the Pontifical Academy for Life said the church's first reaction should have been to minister to the girl.
tThe girl "should have been defended, hugged and held tenderly to help her feel that we were all on her side," said Archbishop Rino Fisichella, head of the academy.

The Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife then issued a statement saying, "All of us ... treated the pregnant girl and her family with extreme charity and tenderness. ... All efforts were focused on saving all three lives.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/bishop-who-spoke-about-girls-abortion-resigns

 

Team lion.  And I was baptized a catholic.  

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Aint' no Nazi like a Catholic Nazi...Seriously, I know a few. Many have moved on to the Evangelicals but not enough, and somehow there is some theology in there I never learned to justify shit like Opus Dei. I guess it all comes back to governance of the pussy. If you support abortion, or have one, you are fit to kill. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19101]

As soon as the Catholics start taking responsibility for shuffling around pedo priests, then maybe I'll pay attention to what they say. Until then, fuck them.

[Mole 4333]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

What's FASCINATING (he says sarcastically) is how the polling of "religious adherents" almost perfectly tracks the political divide, without any regard for the actual theology of the adherents.  The Catholics are as divided as our society as a whole.  Seems like the Baptists are, too.  I know the Presbyterians have been.  And the Methodists are dealing with it....and on and on.

In other words, most all "people of faith" choose what they want to believe and do politically with ZERO guidance from their faith at all.  They follow their politics, not their faith -- they just claim that their faith happens to match their politics, after they've decided what their politics are.

Which I get.  It's really hard to actually dig into matters of faith and realize "holy shit.....if I'm gonna take this faith stuff seriously, it's really hard, and most of it is some version of 'don't be a selfish dick,' and I'm not willing to do that." 

I posted it in the other thread, but I wouldn't hold my breath for these same bishops to make similar statements about leaders who take hardline anti-immigrant stances......

.....ahem.

There's a good case that the Bible supports something like the pro-life position. You can apply biblical principals to the abortion issue and reasonably end up with a pro-life view. But you have to make the case for it -- it isn't plainly there. 

There's no need to make a case about treatment of immigrants; it's explicit and addressed repeatedly. Poor treatment of the poor and immigrants is in direct violation of God's repeated and explicit commands as presented throughout the Bible. There's no getting around it.

I'm personally pro-life in the sense that I think we should reorient our culture to be more pro-life. The fact that women are in circumstances where an abortion seems like the wisest choice reflects a far greater cultural sin -- one that we all bear -- than the fact that she chooses to terminate the pregnancy. The fact that girls are in positions where it's even a question is even more grave of a sin that falls on all of us. That Brazilian case is pure degeneracy. The Catholic Church can't support that and maintain any moral authority.

Jesus said something about tying up heavy burdens and not being willing to lift a finger. This seems pretty applicable in these discussions. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Mole

[Pato del Muerto 52499]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Team lion.  And I was baptized a catholic.  

Baptized and Confimed here. They lost the plot somewhere before the first Crusade and never got it back. 

[Hookah Horns 3083]

Lol religion

[Hookah Horns 3083]

2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

the us catholic church can get bent until they out EVERY mother fucking child molesting priest. 

And then they can get bent some more imo. 

[RDCanecutter 26446]

I was interested in Catholicism until I spent two days with a Catholic radio station playing in the background.

[Hookah Horns 3083]

Catholic radio is lit 

[RDCanecutter 26446]

1 minute ago, Hookah Horns said:

Catholic radio is lit 

About half of it was erudite study-group stuff, but then they'd switch over to some boisterous Covid denier, then maybe a call-in show where elderly people with Northeastern accents would call up weeping because they were afraid of going to hell for some tiny thing, you could almost figure out how many times they'd been beaten as a child.

So yeah, it could be entertaining, but not in a Hey-I've-Got-to-Join-THIS! sort of way.

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

21 minutes ago, Mole said:

There's a good case that the Bible supports something like the pro-life position.

No, there’s not. 

[formermav43 4606]

[Willfully Horn 8017]

12 minutes ago, Mole said:

There's a good case that the Bible supports something like the pro-life position. You can apply biblical principals to the abortion issue and reasonably end up with a pro-life view. But you have to make the case for it -- it isn't plainly there. 

There's no need to make a case about treatment of immigrants; it's explicit and addressed repeatedly. Poor treatment of the poor and immigrants is in direct violation of God's repeated and explicit commands as presented throughout the Bible. There's no getting around it.

I'm personally pro-life in the sense that I think we should reorient our culture to be more pro-life. The fact that women are in circumstances where an abortion seems like the wisest choice reflects a far greater cultural sin -- one that we all bear -- than the fact that she chooses to terminate the pregnancy. The fact that girls are in positions where it's even a question is even more grave of a sin that falls on all of us. That Brazilian case is pure degeneracy. The Catholic Church can't support that and maintain any moral authority.

Jesus said something about tying up heavy burdens and not being willing to lift a finger. This seems pretty applicable in these discussions. 

I’ll go ahead and disagree, pointing to the bitter waters procedure laid out in Numbers. 
 

Not only does the procedure kill the fetus, it kills the mother. (To be fair, mothers whose fetus was conceived within a marriage, by the husband, will be unharmed. Deus ex machina-style). Notably, and infuriatingly, the whole thing begins at the husband’s command. 
 

Numbers makes clear that the potential life of the fetus is forfeit if the husband is not the father of the fetus. Rape and incest both would mean death to the ill begotten fetus and the woman who carries it.

 

[Satchel 6938]

28 minutes ago, Mole said:

There's a good case that the Bible supports something like the pro-life position. You can apply biblical principals to the abortion issue and reasonably end up with a pro-life view. But you have to make the case for it -- it isn't plainly there. 

There's no need to make a case about treatment of immigrants; it's explicit and addressed repeatedly. Poor treatment of the poor and immigrants is in direct violation of God's repeated and explicit commands as presented throughout the Bible. There's no getting around it.

I'm personally pro-life in the sense that I think we should reorient our culture to be more pro-life. The fact that women are in circumstances where an abortion seems like the wisest choice reflects a far greater cultural sin -- one that we all bear -- than the fact that she chooses to terminate the pregnancy. The fact that girls are in positions where it's even a question is even more grave of a sin that falls on all of us. That Brazilian case is pure degeneracy. The Catholic Church can't support that and maintain any moral authority.

Jesus said something about tying up heavy burdens and not being willing to lift a finger. This seems pretty applicable in these discussions. 

Can one be pro life and value guns more than people?

[Royalfan5 2354]

I was pretty shocked when I found out that most of the time Catholic communion was just a wafer. Being ELCA Lutheran we make with the wine every time, and allow anyone who wants communion to take it

[Dr. Teeth 5844]

2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

the us catholic church can get bent until they out EVERY mother fucking child molesting priest. 

Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease. In Rome, they were like, “Let’s see. What problems can we solve? Problem one. No.” -JM

[Willfully Horn 8017]

According to the Church, either bread or wine enables a participant to fully partake in the Eucharist. And keeps alcoholics and celiac sufferers from wondering about transubstantiation.

 

[Mole 4333]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No, there’s not. 

This kind of misses the point of my post, but:

1. there are reasonable biblical arguments that support the pro-choice position

2. there's also the question of whether or not staking out a "biblical" position on any moral issue is wise or relevant today.

Despite this, the idea that there isn't a valid biblical case to support something approximating the pro-life position is simply not true. Someone can reject the case on biblical or other grounds, but it's there and pretty reasonable provided you start with the premises that most religious pro-lifers start with (and that premise isn't simply "hurr-durr I hate women").

And of course my point was that any Christian stance on abortion is necessarily a case based on the application biblical principals rather than explicit commands, such as treatment of the poor and immigrants. It's disappointing, but not surprising, that religious pro-lifers have latched on to an issue that has some biblical nuance and rejected the other issues that are much clearer.

[Guest Lobo]

I still think the only thing stranger than eating the flesh of man and drinking his blood, is pretending to eat the flesh of man and drinking their blood.  

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

16 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

What part of “breath of life” don’t you understand? Nowhere in the Bible is an unborn child recognized as a human life. Even after they’re born, they’re still basically property. The foundational myth of the Abrahamic religions is about God instructing Abraham to murder his son Isaac in order to prove his faith. Oh, sure, God stepped in at the last moment and said, ‘Psych! Just kidding!’ But there’s not enough therapy in the world to help Isaac deal with that trauma.

The God of Abraham is an immoral monster god that can only be a human invention. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by WhatTheBuck