It's the Wild Wild West! Student-athletes win major battle with NCAA over compensation

[Stella Link 535]

Student athletes today....chess club and drama club tomorrow!!  

 

[Eastwood 4394]

2 hours ago, Machinator said:

[Sgt Hulk 14470]

How this affect ticket prices?  If the school provides, room board, tuition, nutrition, medical, beats, bose, shoes, pay checks etc.  will the expense flow down to tickets.  500 for a ticket against utep in the nose bleed 

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

Taken together, the unanimous opinion and the concurrence seem to say that the plaintiffs could've probably taken it all down if they hadn't limited their SCOTUS challenge to stuff like school supplies (very broadly defined) and paid internships. Seems like now we wait and see whether the NCAA tries to get ahead of it by quickly opening the door to schools directly paying players a salary (like they did with NIL) or waits for things to play out in the courts again. I guarantee there are lawyers hustling their asses off right now looking for plaintiffs to go after the prohibition on straight paying players, and I have to think at least some lower courts are going to say the players prevail based on this decision.

Short of congress stepping in to create an antitrust exemption for the NCAA or something, it's hard to see getting more than a few years down the line before players are getting straight paid. And probably a lot of big schools could do that without increasing their budget if they just stop building absurd gold-plated stadiums and diamond-encrusted weight rooms because they'll no longer have to set piles of money on fire to maintain the charade that they aren't profitable.

[ousux 5649]

This shit is going to get plenty messy the next few years while the schools/NCAA figure everything out. As long as it doesnt hurt the overall quality and competitiveness of the game, (and doesnt result in the NFL competing with farm teams) I'm ok with it.

However some non revenue generating sports may have to go bye bye. Good thing the Olympic games are becoming increasingly irrelevant, the USA! USA! could potentially slip a bit in our summer games domination and fairly consistent top 5 finishes in the winter.

[DanRydell 799]

1 hour ago, Sgt Hulk said:

How this affect ticket prices?  If the school provides, room board, tuition, nutrition, medical, beats, bose, shoes, pay checks etc.  will the expense flow down to tickets.  500 for a ticket against utep in the nose bleed 

Why are you under the impression that schools aren't already charging as much as the market will bear?

[BurntOrange&White 42008]

3 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

Why are you under the impression that schools aren't already charging as much as the market will bear?

because students can still get discounted tickets

[Dbeasy 15613]

1 hour ago, Sgt Hulk said:

How this affect ticket prices?  If the school provides, room board, tuition, nutrition, medical, beats, bose, shoes, pay checks etc.  will the expense flow down to tickets.  500 for a ticket against utep in the nose bleed 

No, ticket prices won’t change at all once costs to the universities rise dramatically due to this ruling. Eye-roll. 

[Texasrocks 2253]

4 hours ago, South Austin said:

 

I can make a case for why F250s are education-related benefits.

You can plug a lot of laptops into an F-150 Lightning.

[AUinHsv 584]

don't kid too much about F150's. I read an earlier article stating that transportation is a education expense. Someone is going to build  a dorm about a mile off campus and provide F150's or Chargers etc.

Quote

 

 

[JFKFC 4978]

Let me sum it up for you guys....amateurism is dead. So is Mo Green, Tataglia, Barzini, the heads of all the five families. 

[Neonmoon 38130]

Any school that isn’t openly paying players is falling way behind. Kavanaughs opinion basically says NCAA will lose the case if they try to impose payment limitations. 

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a bad thing for Texas if we can start openly backing dumptrucks of money up to players' houses. Dumptrucks full of money is one area where we're always competitive.

[ChickenSandwich 9976]

Could someone challenge the NFL’s age rule like the NBAs and take the burden of paid play away from schools. Following the baseball model seems like common sense until the NFL has a legit minor league. 
 

[VoteforHank 136]

Study abroad. Gonna need a resort in the Greek Mediterranean to conduct summer classes……

[Bevo 13926]

1 hour ago, ousux said:

Good thing the Olympic games are becoming increasingly irrelevant, the USA! USA! could potentially slip a bit in our summer games domination and fairly consistent top 5 finishes in the winter.

When did this happen?

[notre dame joe 205]

On 6/8/2021 at 4:04 PM, Hurtlocker said:

 

 

5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Unanimous decisions are common in apolitical cases.  As in 50% or more.

While this has a sort of political component to it, it's really an antitrust case.  Driest of the dry.

Unanimous means the scope of the decision is very narrow.  This issue seems to have been delineated with a laser.  But the writing is on the wall, and everyone knew it was coming.

[Extra Anejo 99]

54 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Any school that isn’t openly paying players is falling way behind. Kavanaughs opinion basically says NCAA will lose the case if they try to impose payment limitations. 

Totally correct but the NCAA probably needs to go thru the motions.

[ousux 5649]

When did this happen?

It's happened naturally over the years. Combination of less of a cold war rivalry between the US and Soviet bloc (USSR and satellite nations such as East Germany) and people simply having many more options of things to watch..sports or otherwise.

When I was a kid watching the Olympics was a pretty big deal, even for people who don't normally follow sports, and medal winners were much bigger national stars than they are these days..and that was even with most of my Olympic experience being post Soviet collapse and Berlin wall.

[staboner 5098]

7 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

@TwiceHorn please explain in simple terms what this means. Thanks. 

we have underpants. there will be profits.

[Sgt Hulk 14470]

2 hours ago, DanRydell said:

Why are you under the impression that schools aren't already charging as much as the market will bear?

Why aren’t you answering the questuon

[Nivek 17425]

Fit lump could show you how to scan the system.

The lump is a scanner?

[Doc Reeves 6434]

5 hours ago, Ldogg53 said:

Now this is a thought.  If you can have an emotional support dog why not an emotional support Hooker?

If there anything that professional football has taught us is that sort of behavior is not acceptable. They can only have one massage parlor blowjob job or if they prefer can wack off in front of an Instagram masseuse.

[AUS-97HORN 12057]

2 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Could someone challenge the NFL’s age rule like the NBAs and take the burden of paid play away from schools. Following the baseball model seems like common sense until the NFL has a legit minor league. 
 

all the major sports have a CBA in place, which as already stated on this thread, are the workaround to anti-trust issues.   

The NFL CBA is ratified with the NFL not having an  actual age rule.... they have a minimum amount of schooling rule (3 years after their HS class graduated)   and i think the NBA rule is similar - at least it is in regards to American's they cant be drafted until a year after HS graduation.   Not entirely sure at exactly what age it kicks in for any foreign players. 

in theory if you got a kicker who also happened to be Doogie Howser smart, graduated at age 10 and could kick a 65 yard FG, they could be admitted into the NFL at age 18

In theory there is no minimum age range for the NFL, pretty sure they would require the player to at least be 18.

[Beau Vine 55891]

5 hours ago, Sgt Hulk said:

How this affect ticket prices?  If the school provides, room board, tuition, nutrition, medical, beats, bose, shoes, pay checks etc.  will the expense flow down to tickets.  500 for a ticket against utep in the nose bleed 

If people would pay that, they'd charge it now, Einstein.

[ChickenSandwich 9976]

41 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

all the major sports have a CBA in place, which as already stated on this thread, are the workaround to anti-trust issues.   

The NFL CBA is ratified with the NFL not having an  actual age rule.... they have a minimum amount of schooling rule (3 years after their HS class graduated)   and i think the NBA rule is similar - at least it is in regards to American's they cant be drafted until a year after HS graduation.   Not entirely sure at exactly what age it kicks in for any foreign players. 

in theory if you got a kicker who also happened to be Doogie Howser smart, graduated at age 10 and could kick a 65 yard FG, they could be admitted into the NFL at age 18

In theory there is no minimum age range for the NFL, pretty sure they would require the player to at least be 18.

Thought he NBA was preparing to drop their requirement in future drafts draft (not this one of course )

[DanRydell 799]

Why aren’t you answering the questuon

Because the premise underlying the question, that schools aren’t already pricing tickets with an goal of maximizing revenues, was absurd.

[Machinator 32103]

 

[TwiceHorn 32106]

11 minutes ago, Machinator said:

 

That USA today article indicates that conferences can make their own rules, but have to act unilaterally.  They can't collude.

I'm not so sure about that.  A conference is just a concerted action by its member schools, just as the NCAA is a concerted action of its member schools and conferences.  Which is why this is an antitrust case in the first place.

I'm pretty sure there needs to be an antitrust exemption from Congress.  Maybe not a broad one, but one nevertheless.

[BurntOrange&White 42008]

8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

That USA today article indicates that conferences can make their own rules, but have to act unilaterally.  They can't collude.

I'm not so sure about that.  A conference is just a concerted action by its member schools, just as the NCAA is a concerted action of its member schools and conferences.  Which is why this is an antitrust case in the first place.

I'm pretty sure there needs to be an antitrust exemption from Congress.  Maybe not a broad one, but one nevertheless.

If conferences can't collude and develop rules together then how do you even have a fair playing field for all participants? I'm pretty sure you explained in this post I quoted but it's still earl.

[DanRydell 799]

That USA today article indicates that conferences can make their own rules, but have to act unilaterally.  They can't collude.
I'm not so sure about that.  A conference is just a concerted action by its member schools, just as the NCAA is a concerted action of its member schools and conferences.  Which is why this is an antitrust case in the first place.
I'm pretty sure there needs to be an antitrust exemption from Congress.  Maybe not a broad one, but one nevertheless.

Anti-trust not at all being my thing, might the difference be that a conference isn’t a monopoly because there are numerous conferences?

[TwiceHorn 32106]

2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

If conferences can't collude and develop rules together then how do you even have a fair playing field for all participants? I'm pretty sure you explained in this post I quoted but it's still earl.

I didn't explain it, or offer any solution.

The basis of this case is that NCAA actions are unlawful because they are an "agreement in restraint of trade."  Such agreements are lawful if there are adequate business justifications for them (rule of reason analysis) instead of just per se illegal.  The agreement here is that NCAA member institutions agree to abide by NCAA rules.

This case challenged caps and bans on "education-related" expenditures, and found the business justification (preserving amateurism) inadequate to justify them.  So it's "narrow" in that it applies only to NCAA's education-related expenditure rules.

Kavanaugh's concurrence suggests that none of NCAA's justifications are adequate to support any NCAA rule, or at least the amateurism justifications are not sufficient to justify caps on student athlete compensation of any type.

I would have to think that the same type of analysis would apply to any conference's rules, as well.

So, the trend is toward completely neutering the NCAA (yay?).  But there's no "replacement" on the horizon.  Schools can't "collude" individually, or via their conferences, either.

We are on the road to thunderdome.

[TwiceHorn 32106]

7 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

Anti-trust not at all being my thing, might the difference be that a conference isn’t a monopoly because there are numerous conferences?

Well, it gets complicated, but agreements in restraint of trade in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act don't require monopoly power.  They're unlawful on any scale, subject to rule of reason analysis.  A lack of monopoly power may figure into rule of reason analysis, making less compelling justifications adequate.

Edited June 22, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[DigglerontheHoof 21564]

When can we just start out-bidding everyone else and cherry pick 5*s?

[BurntOrange&White 42008]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I didn't explain it, or offer any solution.

The basis of this case is that NCAA actions are unlawful because they are an "agreement in restraint of trade."  Such agreements are lawful if there are adequate business justifications for them (rule of reason analysis) instead of just per se illegal.  The agreement here is that NCAA member institutions agree to abide by NCAA rules.

This case challenged caps and bans on "education-related" expenditures, and found the business justification (preserving amateurism) inadequate to justify them.  So it's "narrow" in that it applies only to NCAA's education-related expenditure rules.

Kavanaugh's concurrence suggests that none of NCAA's justifications are adequate to support any NCAA rule, or at least the amateurism justifications are not sufficient to justify caps on student athlete compensation of any type.

I would have to think that the same type of analysis would apply to any conference's rules, as well.

So, the trend is toward completely neutering the NCAA (yay?).  But there's no "replacement" on the horizon.  Schools can't "collude" individually, or via their conferences, either.

We are on the road to thunderdome.

So if you are the big 12 and etc you just try to make the least rules as possible to benefit the athlete the most. Making more and complex rules would only hurt the conference overall it seems. 

[utee94 16091]

58 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

So if you are the big 12 and etc you just try to make the least rules as possible to benefit the athlete the most. Making more and complex rules would only hurt the conference overall it seems. 

Yes.  The NCAA has long been heavy-handed in its rules, but that's because enough of the member schools WANTED it to be that way, in order to limit and check the power of other schools.  But the NCAA only retains whatever power is granted to it by its member schools.  If the desired direction from enough of the member schools changes, then the NCAA's powers will be revoked, or the member schools would potentially abandon the NCAA.

But like @TwiceHorn and other have pointed out, then what?  Without some top-level organization setting and enforcing the rules, how would schools and conferences ensure a level playing field?  And any NEW organization that the conferences set up to replace the NCAA, would encounter all of the same challenges.

If the conferences decide to go separately, then not only will it be impossible to keep a level playing field (if such a thing could ever really exist anyway), but then the conferences themselves could potentially become subject to the same types of challenges that the NCAA is experiencing.

Like Twice said... it looks like we're about to enter Thunderdome.

[Vic Mackey 48027]

Good. Fuck the NCAA. 

[BabaYaga 15631]

8 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Good. Fuck the NCAA. 

EOT!

[Machinator 32103]

 

[utee94 16091]

lulz at ND acting as if they're above the fray. 

 

[notre dame joe 205]

6 hours ago, utee94 said:

lulz at ND acting as if they're above the fray. 

 

Actually Savvy Jack is acting like a former Big Law Partner, because that's what he was.

 

I don't think you have to work with how college football organizes a governing body.  The issue is that governing body can no longer exist for the purpose of keeping labor cheap to enrich itself.  For at least 50 years we said the magic word 'amateurism' to explain away how the NCAA was allowed to suppress the athletes to protect its own revenue stream.  SCOTUS says that spell is broken.

[ousux 5649]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, (not really, fuck it all) but the thought just popped into my head this decision could potentially save high school football? I mean not so much in Texas where it's religion, but in states where it never was a huge deal, and recent CTE scares have caused even less participation and competitiveness.

I mean think about it, a family thats struggling a bit financially could potentially have their son help out much sooner, and thats independent of getting drafted or even making an NFL roster. It could help other high school sports as well, but everyone knows which sport is king at all major universities that aren't MIT and the like..

Just food for thought.

[ouflak 60]

On 6/24/2021 at 12:31 AM, ousux said:

Apologies if this has already been discussed, (not really, fuck it all) but the thought just popped into my head this decision could potentially save high school football? I mean not so much in Texas where it's religion, but in states where it never was a huge deal, and recent CTE scares have caused even less participation and competitiveness.

I mean think about it, a family thats struggling a bit financially could potentially have their son help out much sooner, and thats independent of getting drafted or even making an NFL roster. It could help other high school sports as well, but everyone knows which sport is king at all major universities that aren't MIT and the like..

Just food for thought.

Well the rules are agnostic of the sport, so the potential is there with all high school sports. But let's face it. It's only ever going to be football and basketball that have any chance of bringing in any real big bucks at that level. But if a family (or I suppose even an athlete) has decided not to play football because of CTE, it's going to take some serious cash amounts to get them to change their mind (forgive the pun) about that, I'd reckon. However for those who would play anyway, sure, could be some nice incentive there.

Edited June 25, 2021 by ouflak