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British destroyer buzzed and targetted by Russian jets and ships

Captainant

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Captainant

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TL:DR - Russia says HMS Defender encroached on their territorial waters off of Crimea, UK says they were just transiting an internationally recognized transit corridor

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57583363

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More than 20 Russian aircraft and two coastguard ships have shadowed a British warship sailing near Crimea.

Moscow's defence ministry was quoted as saying that HMS Defender entered Russian territorial waters near Crimea while a patrol ship fired warning shots and a jet dropped bombs in its path.

Britain's Ministry of Defence (MoD) said no warning shots were fired.

However, a BBC correspondent onboard the warship said it has been harassed by the Russian military.

Aircraft could be heard overhead as the BBC's defence correspondent, Jonathan Beale, filed a report from the deck of HMS Defender in the Black Sea. He described hostile warnings over the radio as the navy crew prepared for a possible confrontation.

Our correspondent, who had been invited aboard the ship before the incident happened, describes more than 20 aircraft in the skies above the British ship - and says two Russian coastguard boats shadowed the vessel, at times just 100 yards away.

Russia claims the illegally-annexed peninsula and its waters are its territory, but Britain says its ship was passing through Ukrainian waters.

"HMS Defender was taking the most direct and internationally recognised route between Ukraine and Georgia," a Downing Street spokesman said.

He added that Russia had given pre-warning to the UK that it was carrying out gunnery exercises in the Black Sea near to where HMS Defender was sailing.

British Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said in a statement that HMS Defender was carrying out a "routine transit" when it entered the internationally recognised traffic corridor.

The vessel also had a defense correspondent onboard who gave his first-hand remarks in the article as well:

Quote

Analysis by Jonathan Beale, Defence correspondent

I am on board HMS Defender, in the Black Sea.

The crew were already at action stations as they approached the southern tip of Russian occupied Crimea. Weapons systems on board the Royal Navy destroyer had already been loaded.

This would be a deliberate move to make a point to Russia. HMS Defender was going to sail within the 12 mile (19km) limit of Crimea's territorial waters. The captain insisted he was only seeking safe passage thorough an internationally recognised shipping lane.

Two Russian coastguard ships that were shadowing the Royal Navy warship, tried to force it to alter course. At one stage one of the Russian vessels closed in to about 100m (328ft).

Increasingly hostile warnings were issued over the radio - including one that said "if you don't change course I'll fire". We did hear some firing in the distance but they were believed to be well out of range.

As HMS Defender sailed through the shipping lane it was buzzed by Russian jets. The Captain, Vincent Owen, said the ship detected more than 20 military aircraft nearby. Commander Owen said his mission was confident but non-confrontational.

Russia said the incident happened near Cape Fiolent in the south of Crimea and - according to a defence ministry statement to Russian news agencies - claimed the British vessel subsequently changed course.

The Russian Defence Ministry has been quoted by RIA Novosti news agency as saying the "dangerous actions" of the destroyer were a "gross violation" of the UN Convention's sea laws.

Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 but this has not been recognised internationally.

The British Ambassador has now been summoned to the Russian Foreign Ministry.

HMS Defender is a Type 45 destroyer that is part of the UK's Carrier Strike Group. It is carrying out missions in the Black Sea, according to the Royal Navy's website.

The warship was in the southern Ukrainian port of Odessa earlier this week, according to the British embassy in Ukraine. It said the UK and Ukraine had signed an agreement to jointly build warships and construct two naval bases.

 

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blacklab

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12 hours ago, Captainant said:

British Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said in a statement that HMS Defender was carrying out a "routine transit" when it entered the internationally recognised traffic corridor.

Ben Wallace - Michigan Sports Hall of Fame

 

Not really the career path I expected for him but he was always known more for his defense than offense so I guess secretary of defense makes sense. 

 

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phdhorn

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10 hours ago, blacklab said:

Ben Wallace - Michigan Sports Hall of Fame

 

Not really the career path I expected for him but he was always known more for his defense than offense so I guess secretary of defense makes sense. 

 

Yes, but only if he's in charge of home defense fortifications.  He shouldn't be put in charge of tactical operations, because he couldn't shoot from even 2 feet and hit anything.

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Orange&White

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So they had already invited a reporter on board, the crew was already in action stations and their weapons systems had already been loaded, but they are still going with the notion that they were just taking the most direct route.

Sounds a lot to me like they fucked around and found out. They went in looking to cause provocation and they found it.

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C-Man

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14 hours ago, blacklab said:

Ben Wallace - Michigan Sports Hall of Fame

 

Not really the career path I expected for him but he was always known more for his defense than offense so I guess secretary of defense makes sense. 

 

Ben's feeling pretty salty after being the "face man" for the Pistons winning the Draft Lottery the other night!

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SquishMitten

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On 6/24/2021 at 11:01 AM, Orange&White said:

So they had already invited a reporter on board, the crew was already in action stations and their weapons systems had already been loaded, but they are still going with the notion that they were just taking the most direct route.

Sounds a lot to me like they fucked around and found out. They went in looking to cause provocation and they found it.

Your facts are not wrong, but I disagree with your conclusion. The reporter flat out said that. "This would be a deliberate move to make a point to Russia." As the UK does not recognize Crimea to be Russian, but rather Ukrainian, they do not consider themselves restricted from the territorial waters. Thus they have every tight to travel through the "internationally recognized travel corridor," and they came in weapons hot to show they were willing to shoot if the Russians attempted to stop them. If the ship had been sunk, then I would agree they fucked around and found out. But since it didn't, it appears they successfully completed the mission they set out on.

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atomheartbevo

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3 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Your facts are not wrong, but I disagree with your conclusion. The reporter flat out said that. "This would be a deliberate move to make a point to Russia." As the UK does not recognize Crimea to be Russian, but rather Ukrainian, they do not consider themselves restricted from the territorial waters. Thus they have every tight to travel through the "internationally recognized travel corridor," and they came in weapons hot to show they were willing to shoot if the Russians attempted to stop them. If the ship had been sunk, then I would agree they fucked around and found out. But since it didn't, it appears they successfully completed the mission they set out on.

And if that ship had been sunk, it would have taken down multiple Russian ships/aircraft as well, which would have been embarrassing as fuck to Russia.  

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gsoda3

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6 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Your facts are not wrong, but I disagree with your conclusion. The reporter flat out said that. "This would be a deliberate move to make a point to Russia." As the UK does not recognize Crimea to be Russian, but rather Ukrainian, they do not consider themselves restricted from the territorial waters. Thus they have every tight to travel through the "internationally recognized travel corridor," and they came in weapons hot to show they were willing to shoot if the Russians attempted to stop them. If the ship had been sunk, then I would agree they fucked around and found out. But since it didn't, it appears they successfully completed the mission they set out on.

right, this is something that happens on a consistent basis around the world.  

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SquishMitten

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38 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

And if that ship had been sunk, it would have taken down multiple Russian ships/aircraft as well, which would have been embarrassing as fuck to Russia.  

 

6 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Re: Fuck Around and Find Out.  In a ship on fighter exchange, it'd be the Russians finding out.

No disagreement there. I should've said "if the ship were sunk without doing any comparable damage to the Russians" ... that would be the UK fucking around and finding out.

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Eastwood

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38 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

And if that ship had been sunk, it would have taken down multiple Russian ships/aircraft as well, which would have been embarrassing as fuck to Russia.  

They better watch out because Russia's diesel fueled aircraft carrier, and the flagship of their entire navy, might be patrolling the region. Oh, wait, it caught fire and isn't expected to be back in commission until 2023...

DownrightHairyAmericanindianhorse-small.

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atomheartbevo

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2 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

They better watch out because Russia's diesel fueled aircraft carrier, and the flagship of their entire navy, might be patrolling the region. Oh, wait, it caught fire and isn't expected to be back in commission until 2023...

If they want to stop Russia's carrier, just sink the tugboats.

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39 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Your facts are not wrong, but I disagree with your conclusion. The reporter flat out said that. "This would be a deliberate move to make a point to Russia." As the UK does not recognize Crimea to be Russian, but rather Ukrainian, they do not consider themselves restricted from the territorial waters. Thus they have every tight to travel through the "internationally recognized travel corridor," and they came in weapons hot to show they were willing to shoot if the Russians attempted to stop them. If the ship had been sunk, then I would agree they fucked around and found out. But since it didn't, it appears they successfully completed the mission they set out on.

The most relevant fact is. These are Ukrainian territorial waters, not Russian. Russia is the one violating Ukraine's sovereignty.

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Orange&White

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1 hour ago, SquishMitten said:

Your facts are not wrong, but I disagree with your conclusion. The reporter flat out said that. "This would be a deliberate move to make a point to Russia." As the UK does not recognize Crimea to be Russian, but rather Ukrainian, they do not consider themselves restricted from the territorial waters. Thus they have every tight to travel through the "internationally recognized travel corridor," and they came in weapons hot to show they were willing to shoot if the Russians attempted to stop them. If the ship had been sunk, then I would agree they fucked around and found out. But since it didn't, it appears they successfully completed the mission they set out on.

I agree, it was simple sabre rattling, but then they worded it like this:

"UK says they were just transiting an internationally recognized transit corridor"

Which is a little bit disingenuous as to their true motives and course of action.

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SquishMitten

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^^ What I'm saying is that it's not disingenuous. That's exactly what they are doing, and it's exactly what they're saying. They are just transiting an internationally recognized corridor. This statement, and the act of doing it, is overtly telling Russia that 1) the UK doesn't recognize their presence in the area as being legitimate, 2) they will continue to use the corridor, and 3) Russia can get fucked...or the UK is prepared to use direct military action in response. 

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Parliament

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2 hours ago, Orange&White said:

I agree, it was simple sabre rattling, but then they worded it like this:

"UK says they were just transiting an internationally recognized transit corridor"

Which is a little bit disingenuous as to their true motives and course of action.

That's the language of international diplomacy and nothing else.  Basically, the way you and your brother argued when you were 12.

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Armybrat

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16 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

Isn't more than half the Russian Navy laid up in port for repairs at any time? That British ship might have already put a couple of Russian ones out of service, simply by goading them into coming out to sea and having to accelerate.

Make the rooskies throw a rod? 😅

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Bill Lumbergh

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They better watch out because Russia's diesel fueled aircraft carrier, and the flagship of their entire navy, might be patrolling the region. Oh, wait, it caught fire and isn't expected to be back in commission until 2023...
DownrightHairyAmericanindianhorse-small.gif
This is a good reminder that we shouldn't be too worried about the Russians being the source of those mysterious uaps that we can't seem to explain. I'm pretty sure they haven't advanced technology beyond what we can comprehend when they can't keep their ships from catching on fire.

The Chinese on the other hand...
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Dennis Taylor

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14 minutes ago, Bill Lumbergh said:

This is a good reminder that we shouldn't be too worried about the Russians being the source of those mysterious uaps that we can't seem to explain. I'm pretty sure they haven't advanced technology beyond what we can comprehend when they can't keep their ships from catching on fire.

The Chinese on the other hand...

You make joke, right?

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Bobby_Batronic

Bobby_Batronic 1994

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1 hour ago, Bill Lumbergh said:

This is a good reminder that we shouldn't be too worried about the Russians being the source of those mysterious uaps that we can't seem to explain. I'm pretty sure they haven't advanced technology beyond what we can comprehend when they can't keep their ships from catching on fire.

The Chinese on the other hand...

You mean they boys and girls buying old Russian carriers to use and copy for their own?

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RDCanecutter

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3 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

so  uh... England not exactly good at keeping thier intentions secret. 

 

classified UK plans to instigate, react and gauge Russia's reaction to the HMS Defender running the strait were found in a soggy heap at a Kent bus stop

 

totally a cooincidence Lou....

Guess it's easier to drop some papers in Kent, than to pitch a dead body into the Mediterranean for Jerry to find.

James Bond Britain is best Britain.

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Bobby_Batronic

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4 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

I realize there’s a difference between having your shit constantly on fire, but the Bonnie Dick wasn’t that long ago. It can happen to anyone, and it doesn’t necessarily mean your fleet is in shambles and no threat to the world.

The Bonnie Dick was a problem in port during heavy maintenance with contractors aboard, much of the crew off, and some of the fire suppression systems shut down. 

The Admiral Kantkeeptheenginesrunning is literally followed around by a dedicated tug boat for when it invariably breaks down. 

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Captainant

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5 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

Guess it's easier to drop some papers in Kent, than to pitch a dead body into the Mediterranean for Jerry to find.

James Bond Britain is best Britain.

sidenote - there's a pretty good podcast called "The World's Greatest Con" that's a narrative retelling of Operation Mincemeat. Pretty good production value

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9 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

so  uh... England not exactly good at keeping thier intentions secret. 

 

classified UK plans to instigate, react and gauge Russia's reaction to the HMS Defender running the strait were found in a soggy heap at a Kent bus stop

 

totally a cooincidence Lou....

So what? These are Ukrainian territorial waters and Russia is illegally occupying them. Fuck Russia. The Brits should send a carrier group next time. 

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6 minutes ago, Pods said:

So what? These are Ukrainian territorial waters and Russia is illegally occupying them. Fuck Russia. The Brits should send a carrier group next time. 

They only have one group   in service at a time...

 

Yes I looked it up, but I was wondering, "How many carrier groups would they need?"

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1 minute ago, slorch said:

They only have one in service at a time...

 

Yes I looked it up, but I was wondering, "How many carrier groups would they need?"

Man, the Royal Navy is slipping. The rest of NATO needs to get their shit in gear, because Russia isn't done invading their neighbors. 

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Yes, what i looked at cited 2 carriers, with one group active at a time.

Fool's errand to go fuck with Ruskies... or driving international relations?

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Eastwood

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12 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

I realize there’s a difference between having your shit constantly on fire, but the Bonnie Dick wasn’t that long ago. It can happen to anyone, and it doesn’t necessarily mean your fleet is in shambles and no threat to the world.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/12/07/the-russian-navys-only-flattop-is-a-bad-luck-wreck-but-moscow-is-fixing-it-up-anyway/

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The vessel is powered by steam turbines and turbo-pressurized boilers that Defense Industry Daily generously described as “defective.” Kuznetsov belches thick black smoke while underway.

Her wiring is bad. So are her pipes. “Water freezes everywhere including pipes which may cause a rupture,” an anonymous blogger explained at English Russia. “The situation with latrines is just as bad. The ship has over 50 latrines [for 1,900 crew] but half of them are closed.”

Kuznetsov is the flagship of the Russian fleet but rarely goes to sea. She conducted just seven patrols between 1991 and 2016. During a 2016 mission off of Syria, the ship’s air wing lost two jets to accidents in the span of just three weeks.

...

Even when she’s in good repair, Kuznetsov suffers serious limitations. She lacks catapults, so her two dozen Su-33 and MiG-29K fighters launch under their own power via a bow ramp. As a consequence, the fighters can carry only a small load of fuel and weapons.

Compared to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz

And we have 10 of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier

I almost want to start a thread asking if anyone can come up with a historical equivalent to the current global dominance that the US Navy has. The current US Navy very well may be the most dominant military force in the history of the world. The only real danger from Russia is their submarines, but they guard the information relating to their subs very closely so as to keep us guessing whether or not the subs have true retaliatory strike capability. Their older subs could be in worse shape than their carrier, for all we know.

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F250

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2 hours ago, slorch said:

Yes, what i looked at cited 2 carriers, with one group active at a time.

Fool's errand to go fuck with Ruskies... or driving international relations?

It's the Russians. This is like Texas State asking to play Tarleton State in a football game.

 

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Bobby_Batronic

Bobby_Batronic 1994

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1 hour ago, Hook1997 said:

@Eastwood’s post it sent me down the navy power internet wormhole.   Did not know that only 12 aircraft carriers are in service around the globe?  We have 10 and Russia and China one each.  UK tries to claim two but they are smaller class two's

Pretty sure they’re second only in size to our nuclear carriers. They’re about 80 feet shorter, and displace 60-70,000 tons. That might qualify as pathetic for a cruise ship in the Caribbean, but as warships go it’s a really big MFer. They’re not rolling around in the Ark Royal anymore. I saw one in NYC Harbor some time ago and thought it was one ours until I saw the second island. 

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