British destroyer buzzed and targetted by Russian jets and ships

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Hook1997 said:

@Eastwood’s post it sent me down the navy power internet wormhole.   Did not know that only 12 aircraft carriers are in service around the globe?  We have 10 and Russia and China one each.  UK tries to claim two but they are smaller class two's

Remember the Falklands...

 

[crash_davis 23115]

Russia and China knows the West (us and NATO) doesn't want another conflict. Putin knows this, that's why he took Crimea. China knows this, that's why they are taking over and building islands in the Pacific. We didn't and aren't doing shit about either. China will probably soon test this again with Taiwan. 

Taiwan has much more at stake for the rest of the world. It's the microchip making center of the world. Will the US respond?

[Brothahorn 10087]

Russia and China knows the West (us and NATO) doesn't want another conflict. Putin knows this, that's why he took Crimea. China knows this, that's why they are taking over and building islands in the Pacific. We didn't and aren't doing shit about either. China will probably soon test this again with Taiwan. 
Taiwan has much more at stake for the rest of the world. It's the microchip making center of the world. Will the US respond?

Will the rest of the world respond as well? Why does it all have to fall on us?

[Orange&White 5539]

6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Russia and China knows the West (us and NATO) doesn't want another conflict. Putin knows this, that's why he took Crimea. China knows this, that's why they are taking over and building islands in the Pacific. We didn't and aren't doing shit about either. China will probably soon test this again with Taiwan. 

Taiwan has much more at stake for the rest of the world. It's the microchip making center of the world. Will the US respond?

What a weird coincidence that this just happened three weeks ago.

https://www.semiconductors.org/chips/

[Parliament 14335]

8 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Russia and China knows the West (us and NATO) doesn't want another conflict. Putin knows this, that's why he took Crimea. China knows this, that's why they are taking over and building islands in the Pacific. We didn't and aren't doing shit about either. China will probably soon test this again with Taiwan. 

Taiwan has much more at stake for the rest of the world. It's the microchip making center of the world. Will the US respond?

Unquestionably.  Dunno if we have legally-binding treaty obligations or not, but the entire World knows we have their back.  If China pulled something and we didn't join the fight, every one of our allies would stop trusting us.

And to that, the fight wouldn't be as lopsided as Britain v Russia, but Taiwan would win it even witout America's help.  Once we did get in, we'd turn the Chinese navy into driftwood.

[crash_davis 23115]

7 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

Will the rest of the world respond as well? Why does it all have to fall on us?

 

That's a good question and it goes back to what is your idea of America? Is it the shining beacon of light for the free world or does that no longer apply? Are we THE good guy or are we just another has been like the UK?

And why does it have to be us as it relates to Taiwan. It better be fucking us. Our future and military advantage depends on our access to those microchips. If China takes over Taiwan and the microchip processing, it seals our fate as a has been.

[crash_davis 23115]

9 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

What a weird coincidence that this just happened three weeks ago.

https://www.semiconductors.org/chips/

We are prepping for a world where China takes over Taiwan. It's a national security issue. This should've been started a decade ago. Billions of military dollars should be funneled to this project.

[crash_davis 23115]

28 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

Will the rest of the world respond as well? Why does it all have to fall on us?

 

Also ask yourself this same question of China's increased territorial claims in the Pacific. There's a very precious island currently owned by Japan which China is now asserting claim. That island also happens to be full of precious metals which is required for microchips and electronics. There's a reason why the US and Japan have recently recommitted their commitment to each other as it relates to Japan's presence in the Pacific. Who knows what other islands are just as valuable.

Also, why is Russia asserting it's claim to the North Pole? The answer is the prospects of oil. Last I checked we aren't doing shit about that either.

This the the thing about the new Nationalistic fervor that came in with Trump. Why should we care about protecting Taiwan, Japan, the North Pole? Well if you don't care about America's future, then sure fuck it and let everyone stand alone. Then don't be surprised in a decade when we are the ones getting dictated to instead of the one dictating the world's direction.

Edited June 28, 2021 by crash_davis

[crash_davis 23115]

dp

Edited June 28, 2021 by crash_davis

[AUS-97HORN 11824]

9 hours ago, F250 said:

It's the Russians. This is like Texas State asking to play Tarleton State in a football game.

Depends who our coach is.... Herman would elect to keep it close and make an idiotic decision halfway in the 4th quarter that may or may not turn out OK.

 

33 minutes ago, Parliament said:

And to that, the fight wouldn't be as lopsided as Britain v Russia, but Taiwan would win it even witout America's help.  Once we did get in, we'd turn the Chinese navy into driftwood.

Not sure where the fuck everyone keeps thinking this is a foregone conclusion, but the Chinese have had 30 years to envision ways to take down a US Carrier Task force.

Im not crying wolf, but they have stolen more technology than anyone else and have the ability to mimic a shitload of our weapons.

I am pretty sure we would win a conventional battle with the Chinese, but we would most likely have some serious wounds.

Just from shit the USN has posted online, they realize the most dangerous attack would be one that involves a true plethora of super high speed anti-ship missiles that come at the carrier task force from at least 3 of the 4 cardinal points.    shooting 1,000 missiles at us in the Taiwan Strait all timed to arrive within 1 minute would seriously try our Aegis cruisers anti-missile tech and gattling guns.

and lets not act like the Chinese arent smart enough to have pre-sunk, sealed high-speed torpedo launchers in the Taiwan Strait, set to attack with almost no warning, plus be a surprise because our anti-sub precautions worked, where theres no subs near the task group

Giving basically little warning and and suddenly 100 torpedoes are inbound.   and the thing with modern torpedoes is, you dont want them to make contact with the ship, you want them to explode about 100 feet below the keel, which evacuates the water under the keel, pushes the ship up, then immediately down because of gravity and no water underneath them anymore, which will break the ship in half every fucking time.      so we would have to be perfect in our anti-torpedo torpedoes in the water.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

1 hour ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

Will the rest of the world respond as well? Why does it all have to fall on us?

 

 

Mostly because of the last 60 years of proclamations, agreements and policy. It’s a fight we aggressively took on and committed to for decades because of their significant importance. 

[Doc Reeves 6434]

9 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Depends who our coach is.... Herman would elect to keep it close and make an idiotic decision halfway in the 4th quarter that may or may not turn out OK.

 

Not sure where the fuck everyone keeps thinking this is a foregone conclusion, but the Chinese have had 30 years to envision ways to take down a US Carrier Task force.

Im not crying wolf, but they have stolen more technology than anyone else and have the ability to mimic a shitload of our weapons.

I am pretty sure we would win a conventional battle with the Chinese, but we would most likely have some serious wounds.

Just from shit the USN has posted online, they realize the most dangerous attack would be one that involves a true plethora of super high speed anti-ship missiles that come at the carrier task force from at least 3 of the 4 cardinal points.    shooting 1,000 missiles at us in the Taiwan Strait all timed to arrive within 1 minute would seriously try our Aegis cruisers anti-missile tech and gattling guns.

and lets not act like the Chinese arent smart enough to have pre-sunk, sealed high-speed torpedo launchers in the Taiwan Strait, set to attack with almost no warning, plus be a surprise because our anti-sub precautions worked, where theres no subs near the task group

Giving basically little warning and and suddenly 100 torpedoes are inbound.   and the thing with modern torpedoes is, you dont want them to make contact with the ship, you want them to explode about 100 feet below the keel, which evacuates the water under the keel, pushes the ship up, then immediately down because of gravity and no water underneath them anymore, which will break the ship in half every fucking time.      so we would have to be perfect in our anti-torpedo torpedoes in the water.

 

The US military would unquestionably beat down the Chinese military at the moment. It’s evident they know this too because of their response actions. That’s not always going to be the case though and the Chinese have decided to be patient.

[gsoda3 3283]

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

And to that, the fight wouldn't be as lopsided as Britain v Russia, but Taiwan would win it even witout America's help.  Once we did get in, we'd turn the Chinese navy into driftwood.

taiwan could fend off an invasion for a little bit.  they'd have ample warning of an attempt to cross the strait.  but china could decimate the entire country first with their missiles before anyone responded.  the taiwanese military would have to fall back to mountain/jungle regions.  any amphibious assault by the PLA would be repelled by mobile heavy artillery hidden in the mountains.  taiwan could sustain that war for a bit but there's no clear path to victory without our help.

[gsoda3 3283]

9 hours ago, Hook1997 said:

@Eastwood’s post it sent me down the navy power internet wormhole.   Did not know that only 12 aircraft carriers are in service around the globe?  We have 10 and Russia and China one each.  UK tries to claim two but they are smaller class two's

i don't think that's right.  france just launched their carrier group a couple weeks ago, the indians have at least one, and i think china has both of theirs out (with a new upgraded flat-deck carrier under construction). 

[crash_davis 23115]

Rail guns. No idea how ready for combat these are but China has a head start on us. Could be a huge issue for our fleet. Not sure if the anti-missile shit can thwart these.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/chinas-world-first-electromagnetic-railgun-goes-to-sea/news-story/6e31d167e88308f59ec96332ef1e867b

[kevwun 15928]

Our navy has been working on rail guns for years.

[DigglerontheHoof 21255]

1 hour ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Depends who our coach is.... Herman would elect to keep it close and make an idiotic decision halfway in the 4th quarter that may or may not turn out OK.

 

Not sure where the fuck everyone keeps thinking this is a foregone conclusion, but the Chinese have had 30 years to envision ways to take down a US Carrier Task force.

Im not crying wolf, but they have stolen more technology than anyone else and have the ability to mimic a shitload of our weapons.

I am pretty sure we would win a conventional battle with the Chinese, but we would most likely have some serious wounds.

Just from shit the USN has posted online, they realize the most dangerous attack would be one that involves a true plethora of super high speed anti-ship missiles that come at the carrier task force from at least 3 of the 4 cardinal points.    shooting 1,000 missiles at us in the Taiwan Strait all timed to arrive within 1 minute would seriously try our Aegis cruisers anti-missile tech and gattling guns.

and lets not act like the Chinese arent smart enough to have pre-sunk, sealed high-speed torpedo launchers in the Taiwan Strait, set to attack with almost no warning, plus be a surprise because our anti-sub precautions worked, where theres no subs near the task group

Giving basically little warning and and suddenly 100 torpedoes are inbound.   and the thing with modern torpedoes is, you dont want them to make contact with the ship, you want them to explode about 100 feet below the keel, which evacuates the water under the keel, pushes the ship up, then immediately down because of gravity and no water underneath them anymore, which will break the ship in half every fucking time.      so we would have to be perfect in our anti-torpedo torpedoes in the water.

I know there've been rumors for years that both the Russians and Chinese could take out our carriers, almost at will, due to torpedoes that attack from the bottom up.   No idea how real the rumors are, but they're nothing new. 

[Deej 76946]

6 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

...torpedoes that attack from the bottom up.

They are going to @NowThis our carriers?

[Trey3216 15373]

12 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Our navy has been working on rail guns for decades.  

FIFY 

[TwiceHorn 31554]

41 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Our navy has been working on rail guns for years.

More than 30, including at Balcones Research Center.  I believe @jimmyjazz did some work in that vicinity back in the day.  But, see https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a32291935/navy-railgun-failure/

While PRC may have mounted one on a vessel, that probably reflects their willingness to experiment with dangerous technology moreso than actually being ahead of us.

Their execution on stolen western military technology tends to kind of suck.

[Bill Lumbergh 7187]

You make joke, right?

I hoped it was obvious, but yes.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

The Navy has had trouble in the Taiwan Straits atop their worry list for decades and decades....Shit, an old friend of mine, a Warthhog carrier pilot from Desert Storm, was telling me about how it was a high priority back in 1991, and I assume it goes back farther than that.  

That said....we all thought the world would end when China absorbed Hong Kong. It didn't. Would a hot war over Taiwan be worth it? 

[Guest]

Warthog carrier pilot?

 

as in the brrrrrrrrt!!!!!!! A-10?

Edited June 29, 2021 by slorch

[atomheartbevo 89824]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:26 AM, crash_davis said:

Russia and China knows the West (us and NATO) doesn't want another conflict. Putin knows this, that's why he took Crimea. China knows this, that's why they are taking over and building islands in the Pacific. We didn't and aren't doing shit about either. China will probably soon test this again with Taiwan. 

Taiwan has much more at stake for the rest of the world. It's the microchip making center of the world. Will the US respond?

It would be a pyrrhic victory.  China would suffer heavy losses and a lot of embarrassment (which is important to them), and would probably lose some expensive military hardware in the process. Taiwan's industries would be devastated, which would have a ripple effect for China - China would have a shit-ton of factories that would be idled without Taiwanese products.  That puts Chinese workers in the streets.

And on top of those idled factories, it wouldn't take many sanctions by many countries to put millions of more Chinese out of work and on the streets.  China can't afford that.  An angsty population means their military has to be focused inward.

[InkaUtexas 26172]

And not just their exports, but their import of food would be crippled. That is their true Achilles heel. 

[RPM 26360]

8 hours ago, slorch said:

Warthog carrier pilot?

 

as in the brrrrrrrrt!!!!!!! A-10?

[Paco 1934]

The Navy has had trouble in the Taiwan Straits atop their worry list for decades and decades....Shit, an old friend of mine, a Warthhog carrier pilot from Desert Storm

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

13 minutes ago, Paco said:

 

 

 

Jumbled some shit up in my head...He was a Warthog pilot. His buddy was a Hornet pilot and the first casualty of the war.  I'd assumed they served there together but I guess they met in training or something. It was a weird time -- my buddy was fresh out of combat, traveling Europe with his ex while trying to woo her back (unsuccessfully), while mourning his dead friend. He said he listened to "Losing My Religion" a lot. 

[Parliament 14335]

18 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Would a hot war over Taiwan be worth it? 

Yes.  We let Taiwan fall and a whole bunch of our other allies are gonna go looking for new friends.  

[crash_davis 23115]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:58 AM, crash_davis said:

Also ask yourself this same question of China's increased territorial claims in the Pacific. There's a very precious island currently owned by Japan which China is now asserting claim. That island also happens to be full of precious metals which is required for microchips and electronics. There's a reason why the US and Japan have recently recommitted their commitment to each other as it relates to Japan's presence in the Pacific. Who knows what other islands are just as valuable.

Also, why is Russia asserting it's claim to the North Pole? The answer is the prospects of oil. Last I checked we aren't doing shit about that either.

This the the thing about the new Nationalistic fervor that came in with Trump. Why should we care about protecting Taiwan, Japan, the North Pole? Well if you don't care about America's future, then sure fuck it and let everyone stand alone. Then don't be surprised in a decade when we are the ones getting dictated to instead of the one dictating the world's direction.

https://www.rt.com/news/528488-japan-defend-taiwan-us-china/

Japan will join us in defending Taiwan's independence.

Taiwan holds the future of tech development, whether is open for the World to use or closed to China and it's backdoors to most all future tech. Plus Taiwan is the litmus test on the world's resolve to keeping China checked in Asia.

Will be interesting to see as the ice melts and more of the artic is unearthed, will the world also keep Russia in check?

Are we going to care or say nah, it's everyone else's problem?

[NeverMarryAStripper 21943]

The new Yuan class of Chinese submarines utilize an advance Air Independent Propulsion system.  American carriers have not faired very well in war games against submarines equipped with similar propulsion systems

[crash_davis 23115]

1 minute ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

The new Yuan class of Chinese submarines utilize an advance Air Independent Propulsion system.  American carriers have not faired very well in war games against submarines equipped with similar propulsion systems

help those of us who are unlearned. what about the new propulsion system vexes us?

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

The new Yuan class of Chinese submarines utilize an advance Air Independent Propulsion system.  American carriers have not faired very well in war games against submarines equipped with similar propulsion systems

Does it sound like whales humping?

[Brisketexan 105438]

4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

help those of us who are unlearned. what about the new propulsion system vexes us?

It's like the caterpillar drive.....

They will sit offshore and run missile drills while listening to our rock and roll music.

[crash_davis 23115]

so...Sean Connery, where art thou?

[Armybrat 40920]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:06 AM, gsoda3 said:

taiwan could fend off an invasion for a little bit.  they'd have ample warning of an attempt to cross the strait.  but china could decimate the entire country first with their missiles before anyone responded.  the taiwanese military would have to fall back to mountain/jungle regions.  any amphibious assault by the PLA would be repelled by mobile heavy artillery hidden in the mountains.  taiwan could sustain that war for a bit but there's no clear path to victory without our help.

The Chinese Nationalists don’t mess around.

When we lived in Taipei in the late 1950s, my dad (a US Army MAAG advisor) was observing simulated invasion war games being conducted at a beach west of the capital.

The simulation was very realistic with thousands of Nationalist troops defending the beach against an invading “communist” force of thousands using old US WW2 landing craft. Lots of cannon & machine gun blank fire plus planted explosions everywhere. It was so realistic that several young conscripts in the defensive force thinking it was the real thing, panicked, threw down their weapons and tried to run away.

The commanders of course were really angry at this potential loss of face and had the disgraced young peasant conscripts immediately shot by a firing squad in front of all the big brass & American advisors. 

Just a minor anecdote, but very sobering.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Armybrat

[crash_davis 23115]

21 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

The Chinese Nationalists don’t mess around.

When we lived in Taipei in the late 1950s, my dad (a US Army MAAG advisor) was observing simulated invasion war games being conducted at a beach west of the capital.

The simulation was very realistic with thousands of Nationalist troops defending the beach against an invading “communist” force of thousands using old US WW2 landing craft. Lots of cannon & machine gun blank fire plus planted explosions everywhere. It was so realistic that several young conscripts in the defensive force thinking it was the real thing, panicked, threw down their weapons and tried to run away.

The commanders of course were really angry at this potential loss of face and had the disgraced young peasant conscripts immediately shot by a firing squad in front of all the big brass & American advisors. 

Just a minor anecdote, but very sobering.

don't you mean Taiwanese?

[Armybrat 40920]

My dad’s interpreter used the term “peasants” to describe those poor guys.

[Armybrat 40920]

US Army MAAG patch on Dad’s uniform

Dad’s interpreter Major “Bob” Chiang & family.

In 1949 when the Nationalists lost their Civil War with Mao’s commies and retreated to the island of Taiwan, Major Chiang was the commander of Generalissimo Chiang-Kai-Shek’s personal bodyguards.  The Major sustained gunshot & bayonet wounds during their escape from the mainland and had a long recovery time in Taipei. He was a fine man and actually became good friends with my dad. He visited Dad in Austin several times up until his last years.