Jump to content

Mass casualty building collapse in Miami

shadow_operative2.0

By shadow_operative2.0
in Daily Texan

 Share

Recommended Posts

Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
53 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I grew up down in Miami around the time this was built.  I have no idea what happened with this building but let’s just say that there were always rumors about the shortcuts taken in building many of the high rises on the beach in South Florida.  My friend and his family are in the iron workers business down there so they used to build a lot of these things and he used to say, “wait until a hurricane takes a direct hit on the high rises on the beach and you may see some fall apart”.  I am not sure how you do shortcuts on buildings to save money but I guess there are ways.  Now this wasn’t a hurricane and who knows what caused it but this is probably not the only poorly designed high rise in South Florida unfortunately.

Incorrect connection system of steel makes it susceptible to wind related torsion, unwanted joint movement and potential catastrophic failure,  undersized steel members, any number of seemingly little things that add up to big problems.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 720
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

smuggs
smuggs

This is rich coming from the guy who's own fucking temple lies in ruin. 

Deej
Deej

Say "conc." one more time  

Jiggy-Z
Jiggy-Z

Does not appear to be a sinkhole from other video footage, but who knows. Two recent collapses: Minneapolis Bridge over the Mississippi and Hard Rock Cafe in New Orleans had ongoing work at the t

Posted Images

Helobious

Helobious 9454

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Must have had a really low occupancy.  Given the time any residents would have been in the building.

Mayor said building had high occupancy. I’d estimate the final death toll to be in the 10-15 range. Lots of people yet to be found. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Lobo said:

This is horrible.  That recent video from across the street---that does not look like faulty rebar that evaded the last building inspection.  And we can crack wise all we want about local government ineptitude, but having a lot of family and friends in SE Florida...they inspect the shit out of those buildings for weather purposes.  

I guess a sudden sinkhole is a likely candidate.  But I would like to hear from our resident engineers/construction experts.  The middle section just collapsing instantly like that.  How is that possible?  

Sink hole sounds right or a controlled demolition.......

 

37 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

Does not appear to be a sinkhole from other video footage, but who knows.

Two recent collapses: Minneapolis Bridge over the Mississippi and Hard Rock Cafe in New Orleans had ongoing work at the times of their collapses.  The Hard Rock collapse appears to have been partially caused by heavy point loads from a scissor lift and improper reshoring along with a not fully cured concrete placement. i don't remember exactly what happened in Minneapolis, but it was related to ongoing work.

Not saying this is the case here, but there was roofing work going on.  If materials or equipment were stored that was too much for the roof, it might have caused the pancaking of the first section that fell. Its hard to tell if it started in one section and then spread. The second section appeared to be leaning inward after the first section went down, probably from the undermining of lower columns and deck structure from the initial collapse.

Just my initial thoughts.  I am not an engineer, but I am a concrete contractor and have done multi story cast in place buildings.

Yeah pancaking could have caused it, I heard this am that recent construction had been just completed.  Awfully coincidental if it wasn't related to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Anastasis

Anastasis 23473

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

What else would you expect a building collapse to look like?

I am not intending to suggest in any way that that was a controlled demolition.  The different phases of collapse, moving from sections to section is just what it looks like. 

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15299

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Must have had a really low occupancy.  Given the time any residents would have been in the building.

If many of the residents are snowbirds, etc then this time of year the occupancy rates are super low.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
wildcat09

wildcat09 29354

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted

I'm no engineer so I'm not going to be able to offer anything like a real explanation of the specific structural failures, but from a quite insane number of hours wasted years ago trying to rebut 9/11 truthers I can tell you that (1) it is absolutely impossible to secretly wire up an occupied building for demolition, and (2) building collapses tend to all look basically like that because gravity pushes straight down. At a very basic level, buildings are heavy as shit and it takes a lot of strong materials working together as a system to hold them up. When part of the system fails and leads to a partial collapse (e.g. the top floor falling), the damage from that can cause the rest to fail and you'd get what you see here.

  • Hook 'Em 11
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15299

Posted
Posted

Looks like at least partially a structural design failure, maybe triggered by shifting or destabilization below.

The tower structures on either end perhaps bulked apart over time or the middle connection spans failed and the center bridging spans between the two sturdier ends collapsed first, which then caused one of the ends to weaken enough to collapse. The ends contain elevators, stair wells, utilities risers, etc, so are more structurally stable, but even then one failed once the middle collapsed.  Wild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm no engineer so I'm not going to be able to offer anything like a real explanation of the specific structural failures, but from a quite insane number of hours wasted years ago trying to rebut 9/11 truthers I can tell you that (1) it is absolutely impossible to secretly wire up an occupied building for demolition, and (2) building collapses tend to all look basically like that because gravity pushes straight down. At a very basic level, buildings are heavy as shit and it takes a lot of strong materials working together as a system to hold them up. When part of the system fails and leads to a partial collapse (e.g. the top floor falling), the damage from that can cause the rest to fail and you'd get what you see here.

The first terrorist attack on the world trade center was a demolition attempt of the structural piers in the parking garage.  Yeah, it can happen right under peoples noses, especially in unsecured parking decks.  Park a few explosive loaded, vans with the doors open adjacent to the correct piers, and you can probably bring a building down without sophisticated demolition equipment.

Not saying that happened here at all, and why would you pick a random, non gov't, non military, non iconic building anyway ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Prepuce of Doom

Prepuce of Doom 21074

Posted
Posted

This is just speculation based on apocryphal information, but when I bought a house in Miami in the mid-00's, it was commonly accepted that because Hurricane Andrew (1992) was such a complete fucking disaster for Miami-Dade County, the state, the insurance industry, etc., building codes (including newer and stronger "hurricane proofing" requirements) were dramatically strengthened in the aftermath. 

As such, local wisdom was that the closer a building's construction was to the time immediately before Andrew (and the implementation of these regulatory changes - not like they happened overnight...) then the shittier, lazier, and lousier the job was, at least going back to the time when people truly gave a shit about the quality of their work and before the cocaine-fueled construction boom (both literally and figuratively) took hold. 

So if this building was from 1981, which was in the middle of the cocaine cowboy era, it's probably fair to say that some shortcuts were taken...

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 

Not saying that happened here at all, and why would you pick a random, non gov't, non military, non iconic building anyway ?

As a test case?  No, I don't think this was a planned demolition...I'm sure a reasonable, though horrific, engineering explanation will come out in the days ahead.  Would make for a pretty fucked up terrorist plot though, "We have vans filled with explosives parked at the correct columns in the parking garages of 10 residential towers nationwide.  No iconic buildings, no famous buildings.  Just 10 random apartment high-rises around the country, just like the one you're reading this from right now."  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
Harrison Bergeron

Harrison Bergeron 1798

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted
43 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm no engineer so I'm not going to be able to offer anything like a real explanation of the specific structural failures, but from a quite insane number of hours wasted years ago trying to rebut 9/11 truthers I can tell you that (1) it is absolutely impossible to secretly wire up an occupied building for demolition, and (2) building collapses tend to all look basically like that because gravity pushes straight down. At a very basic level, buildings are heavy as shit and it takes a lot of strong materials working together as a system to hold them up. When part of the system fails and leads to a partial collapse (e.g. the top floor falling), the damage from that can cause the rest to fail and you'd get what you see here.

As an aside ... 9/11 Truthers are the worst.

  • Hook 'Em 6
  • Like 6
  • Rage+1 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31487

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, DanRydell said:


Construction defect claims have to be brought within 10 years of the building’s completion in Texas and I’d bet Florida has the same thing. So if the building was actually completed in 1981, any claim against the builder, contractors, engineer, architect, etc. lapsed 30 years ago.

Woof.  Is that a fairly new thing?  Non-residential only?

Seems like the product of really effective lobbying.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JFKFC

JFKFC 4885

Posted
Posted

You can have massive foundation problems even without a sinkhole being involved. Wouldn't shock me at all if the elevators are in that middle section where the initial collapse occurred. My best guess is the environmental/geotechnical engineers who did the original analysis either made a massive mistake, or were incentivized to shortcut the process. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
SquishMitten

SquishMitten 10408

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Woof.  Is that a fairly new thing?  Non-residential only?

Seems like the product of really effective lobbying.  

Yeah. That's pretty surprising. For a building to collapse within 10 years of construction, you'd have to think the work was done so unbelievably shitty that even a blind inspector would have easily noticed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
Blotto

Blotto 23523

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Jesus, stayed with friends at a high rise just like that one last week in Naples.  Oh boy.....

Have you checked in safe on facebook yet? 

Edited by Blotto
  • Like 5
  • Haha 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

Posted
Posted (edited)

I wonder if BabaYaga could feel/hear the collapse 2 hours away in Naples?  ;) 

The concrete expert that posted upthread about possibly too much weight on the roof for construction equipment.  That's fast becoming the prevailing notion with other experts and engineers.  Some city permit office clerk was coming in for another ho-hum Thursday at the office, and is being inundated with visits to find out who, if anyone, was doing permitted work up there as of late.  

Edited by Lobo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brew

Brew 3049

Posted
Posted

The Mayor really should have chosen better wording this morning when the numbers came out and it was made to sound like rescues were complete. It’s going to be a while before they reach everyone that was in the building. With 51 unaccounted for, the death toll is going to be more than the 1 that was circulating earlier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sbbruin

Sbbruin 21858

Posted
Posted

If you look at this picture, you can see large portions of the building are supported by fairly thin columns on the ground level to accommodate duck-under parking.  In LA, these are referred to as "soft-story" buildings, and were a major contributor of apartment building collapse during the '94 Northridge quake.  Thousands of buildings are undergoing mandatory retrofit right now (I think they have 10 more years or so to get it all done).  Looks to me that if any of those first story columns had structural defects, or maybe were compromised by someone running into one, it could set off a chain reaction collapse.

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105151

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm no engineer so I'm not going to be able to offer anything like a real explanation of the specific structural failures, but from a quite insane number of hours wasted years ago trying to rebut 9/11 truthers I can tell you that (1) it is absolutely impossible to secretly wire up an occupied building for demolition, and (2) building collapses tend to all look basically like that because gravity pushes straight down. At a very basic level, buildings are heavy as shit and it takes a lot of strong materials working together as a system to hold them up. When part of the system fails and leads to a partial collapse (e.g. the top floor falling), the damage from that can cause the rest to fail and you'd get what you see here.

This.  Most structural failures of a tall building end up looking very similar, because gravity.

5 minutes ago, Brew said:

The Mayor really should have chosen better wording this morning when the numbers came out and it was made to sound like rescues were complete. It’s going to be a while before they reach everyone that was in the building. With 51 unaccounted for, the death toll is going to be more than the 1 that was circulating earlier.

Yeah.....the death toll is surely going to rise significantly.  Remember how long people were still listed as "missing" after the 9/11 tower collapses.  It takes time to find bodies in that much rubble.  If occupants are still unaccounted for in a week or so.....they're almost certainly in there, under tons of rubble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
bolverk

bolverk 29683

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

If you look at this picture, you can see large portions of the building are supported by fairly thin columns on the ground level to accommodate duck-under parking.  In LA, these are referred to as "soft-story" buildings, and were a major contributor of apartment building collapse during the '94 Northridge quake.  Thousands of buildings are undergoing mandatory retrofit right now (I think they have 10 more years or so to get it all done).  Looks to me that if any of those first story columns had structural defects, or maybe were compromised by someone running into one, it could set off a chain reaction collapse.

spacer.png

What's going on with the ground between the pool and the remaining structure? To my eye, it looks like a little like the ground has given way. Of course, that could also be the result of impact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38129

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

What's going on with the ground between the pool and the remaining structure? To my eye, it looks like a little like the ground has given way. Of course, that could also be the result of impact.

I think it collapsed into the underground garage. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Huckleberry

Huckleberry 32866

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Jiggy-Z said:

From the Wiki:

The NTSB cited a design flaw as the likely cause of the collapse, noting that a too-thin gusset plate ripped along a line of rivets, and additional weight on the bridge at the time contributed to the catastrophic failure.[6]

Yep, before the review was published pictures were out online of the gusset plates showing deformation and cracks in certain spots. And my immediate reaction was "holy shit they're using 1/2" plate in that location?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jiggy-Z

Jiggy-Z 3432

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

There are dozens still missing.  This is not going to turn out good.

...and it might be awhile before all are accounted for.  Even if they are accounted for it might be months before they are recovered given the potentially unstable nature of the remaining structure.  In the Hard Rock collapse, there was a construction worker who died whose legs could be seen sticking out of the upper structure.  An effort was made to put some kind of tarp or plastic around the protruding portions out of some kind of respect for the dead, but wind and rain only wrapped the covering around the legs and further highlighted and offset his body.  It was well over a year before they were able to get him out of there.

Hard Rock was a unique case since there were historic structures very close by and a couple of tower cranes that had to be control demoed to avoid further damage, plus New Orleans.

I would think that this structure could be shored up and demolition could be done fairly quickly after the investigation as long as there is no underlying sinkhole or other geotechnical anomaly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, Lobo said:

As a test case?  No, I don't think this was a planned demolition...I'm sure a reasonable, though horrific, engineering explanation will come out in the days ahead.  Would make for a pretty fucked up terrorist plot though, "We have vans filled with explosives parked at the correct columns in the parking garages of 10 residential towers nationwide.  No iconic buildings, no famous buildings.  Just 10 random apartment high-rises around the country, just like the one you're reading this from right now."  

 

Like I said I don't think it was a planned explosion, but that has been attempted before.  My guess is it's related to the recent construction that apparently happened on site as stated by a news source.  

And yes, random bombings would be a terror inducing act.  I'm thinking they abandoned that idea when the trade towers didn't come down the first time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DDD Dad

DDD Dad 14339

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Okay, yeah, I could see that. The thought that keeps crossing my non-engineer mind is the Bible parable about building a house on sand.

IIRC the entire island that is Miami Beach was basically a sandbar that got turned into real estate by dredging sand from Key Biscayne.

Edited by DDD Dad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


Football ... Basketball ... Baseball ... Other Sports ... Futbol ... 🤫995🤫 ... Gambling ... Movies & TV ... Music ... Hobbies ... Lulz ... Food & Travel ... Daily Texan ... Business and Markets ... Cloak Room ... Help ... For Sale ... Board Discussion ... Subscribe!... Donate!... Advertise... COOKIE MONSTER!

×
×
  • Create New...