Mass casualty building collapse in Miami

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

15 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

To be fair, how else are you going to get that ocean view?

Can’t get there from here (I’ll get there I know the way)

[Nicole44 22060]

On CNN a few minutes ago they spoke to a woman (I guess affiliated with the condo) and she said that the roof was being worked on yesterday to be in compliance with some regulation. I can’t see that being the reason. I could see one of those columns having disintegrated. It does look like an implosion on video. Damn that’s just so heart breaking. 99 missing? Fuck. ❤️

[Neonmoon 38129]

2 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

On CNN a few minutes ago they spoke to a woman (I guess affiliated with the condo) and she said that the roof was being worked on yesterday to be in compliance with some regulation. I can’t see that being the reason. I could see one of those columns having disintegrated. It does look like an implosion on video. Damn that’s just so heart breaking. 99 missing? Fuck. ❤️

A very astute concrete guy earlier said this could possibly be the reason it collapsed. The roof shit fell down on the floor below, causing a domino affect to the ground. 

[Nicole44 22060]

 

 

[Nicole44 22060]

According to USA Today:

 

The building, which was constructed in 1981, has been sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a study in 2020 by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment.

When Wdowinski saw the news that the Champlain Towers South condominium in Surfside collapsed, he instantly remembered it from the study, he said.

“I looked at it this morning and said, ‘Oh my god.’ We did detect that,” he said.

Graphics: Closer look at the Florida building that partially collapsed

Wdowinski said his research is not meant to suggest certainty about what caused the collapse. The building was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s and could have slowed or accelerated in the time since, he said. 
 

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/7778631002?__twitter_impression=true

[ClubWhatever 12144]

The video sure makes it look like the failure started at or near the bottom.  The whole thing just starts falling at seemingly the same instant. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, 66BUFF said:

why do concrete pavers need a lock down system?

Cause concrete floats ...... duuuuuu'h.

[jimmyjazz 45960]

2 mm of sink per year for . . . 25 years? . . . that's 2 inches.  That's a massive shift.  Obviously they don't know if the rate picked up or diminished, but regardless, that's the kind of thing that should have been flagged and monitored.

[conVINCEd 21469]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

2 mm of sink per year for . . . 25 years? . . . that's 2 inches.  That's a massive shift.  Obviously they don't know if the rate picked up or diminished, but regardless, that's the kind of thing that should have been flagged and monitored.

Also the kind of thing that would make me hesistant to buy a condo if it was disclosed.

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

A very astute concrete guy earlier said this could possibly be the reason it collapsed. The roof shit fell down on the floor below, causing a domino affect to the ground. 

I amended that position once I saw a second video. I did not see any pancake from the top. Looked like a failure from the bottom.

However, the possibility remains that a pancake could have occurred on the opposite side from the video and then looked like a bottom up failure from the video vantage point. 

Just seems like a bit of a stretch given the video.  I mean look at it.  The building looks almost intact going down. The lights even stay on for a couple seconds. 

[Nicole44 22060]

Can I ask if that should have been reported? The sink or rate of sink from the article I posted. It seems like it should have been. Anyone know? I

[Doc Reeves 6434]

19 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

2 mm of sink per year for . . . 25 years? . . . that's 2 inches.  That's a massive shift.  Obviously they don't know if the rate picked up or diminished, but regardless, that's the kind of thing that should have been flagged and monitored.

Yeah but…FL

[Armybrat 40850]

Yeah, but San Francisco...

The  58 story Millennium Tower has sunk a lot more (17”, and tilted 14” in just 12 years) than a few millimeters - and this report is almost three years old:

 https://www.businessinsider.com/millennium-tower-san-francisco-tilting-sinking-timeline-2018-10

Edited June 25, 2021 by Armybrat

[Telegraph_it 3357]

Mexico City is sinking at rates far beyond an inch a decade. I guess it depends on the areal extent of the sink rate. Perhaps a 2” sink directly under a support column is enough for something catastrophic. 
 

Like most catastrophic disasters this will follow the Swiss cheese model of errors. A multitude of minor issues all lined up for something tragic 

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

28 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Can I ask if that should have been reported? The sink or rate of sink from the article I posted. It seems like it should have been. Anyone know? I

A lot to unpack from previous post.  So seems like a problem was known.

But to answer your question.  Unless you live in a seismic area or have a really awesome building owner, then no there would be no general reporting going on.

In this case, reporting would likely  come from a tenant reporting spalled columns and shifting walls, as the article says.

[ClubWhatever 12144]

Watch, it will come out that tenants did report shit like that

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Also the kind of thing that would make me hesistant to buy a condo if it was disclosed.

Well... shrinkage, of any kind, is never a good thing.

[Guest Lobo]

Pipe down, Costanza !

[Mighty fine 169]

Mexico City is sinking at rates far beyond an inch a decade. I guess it depends on the areal extent of the sink rate. Perhaps a 2” sink directly under a support column is enough for something catastrophic. 
 
Like most catastrophic disasters this will follow the Swiss cheese model of errors. A multitude of minor issues all lined up for something tragic 

Mexico City is sinking due to subsidence, and at a relatively large and constant scale. The building collapse was likely differential settlement, uneven settlement along its foundation

[Zeus 6032]

4 hours ago, 66BUFF said:

why do concrete pavers need a lock down system?

Uplift loads greater than the dead weight of the paver. Plus many of them are on pedestals, allowing wind to get under as well.

It happens. And in the catastrophe zone on the coast everything has to be tested or run calcs.

 

[Zeus 6032]

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

2 mm of sink per year for . . . 25 years? . . . that's 2 inches.  That's a massive shift.  Obviously they don't know if the rate picked up or diminished, but regardless, that's the kind of thing that should have been flagged and monitored.

Only really bad if it's differential settlement. Even a deep pile with a bell will settle a bit. If everything settled at generally the same rate and the soil can still provide bearing and friction it's all good. The spooky thing was how the foundation looked like it just completely gave out so suddenly. The signs must've been there for a while. Likely new development nearby somewhere shifted the water table, causing a sink hole to develop. Could also be something changed with the drainage and storm water was no longer being controlled away from the building so it built up below it. Florida is a swamp and their soil is not ideal.

Hopefully all these quickly built high rise buildings are all about to get scheduled for yearly inspections by structural engineers and geotechnical engineers. 

Maybe the boom is about to happen and my license in Florida will get some use.

[bolverk 29683]

4 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

 

 

Anyone else notice all the water in that parking garage?

Personally, I've never been to Miami and don't know if Surfside is prone to tidal flooding, but their recent uptick in King Tides has been making the rounds as of late.

[atomheartbevo 89675]

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Anyone else notice all the water in that parking garage?

Water main breaks?

[bolverk 29683]

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Water main breaks?

Very possible. Like everyone, I'm grasping at straws to understand how a relatively modern American hi-rise can just simply collapse on its own. Given the video of the collapse, I do wonder if soil erosion caused by a rising water table or something akin to that may have caused this. Of course, there's several other hypotheses that folks who are more educated in construction, engineering, and materials are floating as well.

[bluto 4929]

Has Austin deployed its resident disaster scientist to assist yet?

[lmao 178]

10 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The term you're describing here is shear walls.   Taking those lateral loads, and distributing them into large planar surfaces that can handle the applied loads.

I'm here for the gang bang..

[Nicole44 22060]

37 minutes ago, lmao said:

I'm here for the gang bang..

Lmao!

[bolverk 29683]

159 missing now

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

It’s heartbreaking hearing rescue workers reporting the sound of cell phones ringing from beneath the rubble as families try to contact their loved ones with no answer. On CBS they reported seeing body bags being carried away so I assume they’re waiting to identify the bodies and notify next of kin before they add those numbers to the death toll. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

There will be in excess of 100 deaths in this incident.  If the issue with settling, and any related structural compromises have been documented, somebody should get the Nowthis treatment.  

Edited June 25, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[shadow_operative2.0 15984]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

t

This is truly a great fucking post. Thanks, bro. 

[JFKFC 4882]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

Just heard the number of “confirmed deaths” is now four. 

[South Austin 52515]

Some folks living in South Florida condos built in the 1980s are probably shitting themselves now.

[Zeus 6032]

40 minutes ago, JFKFC said:

 

Lax enforcement of building codes?

Miami Dade is actually leading the way with requirements for testing for components and cladding. They've got their own system for cataloging all the tested materials:

https://www.miamidade.gov/building/pc-search_app.asp

They've also got their own test standards which were later adopted by ASTM, they are leading the way in creating requirements for testing.

https://www.miamidade.gov/building/testing.asp

At the end of the day construction projects don't do any better by having more government employees with their heads up their ass on the jobsite. It comes down to the contractor, the engineer, and the architect. If the owner is serious about quality control they hire a commissioning agent, who will go over the drawings then provide 3rd party QC to make sure everything is done right.

In this case it is likely everything was actually done right, but a 40 year old building without regular inspections and maintenance is going to potentially have problems. Especially with sinkholes that pop up in Florida. Actually Florida has codified the process of investigations for sinkholes.

Ground Subsidence Structural Damage Assessment (as per Florida Statute Title XXXVII, Chapter 627.706(k) “Structural Damage” definition)

Ground Subsidence Investigation (as per Florida Statute Title XXXVII, Chapter 627.7073)

They've made laws and written papers about it in Florida

https://ascelibrary.org/doi/pdf/10.1061/9780784412640.078

https://ascelibrary.org/doi/10.1061/41095(365)119

Usually it's someone's house. This time unfortunately it happened at 1000s of people's house.

Just my speculation on the cause of the collapse of course, but right now saying Florida's lax building code enforcement caused this is a dumbfuck move. Maybe instead of blaming the government, the owners of the building or the association of owners of the condos should've been performing regular inspections and maintenance. There's almost no way the evidence of failures and imminent collapse was not present.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Zeus

[Nicole44 22060]

So for the structural architect/engineer types…(basically smarter than me—so most posters) if they did heavy work on the roof the day before the collapse? Could that have contributed to a column snapping? Not sure what work was being done on the roof or why. 

[Nicole44 22060]

How much does it cost to live there? I can’t imagine renting one out for my family and then falling asleep only to have that shit happen. I am assuming it fully occupied.

[Captainant 27677]

13 minutes ago, Zeus said:

Just my speculation on the cause of the collapse of course, but right now saying Florida's lax building code enforcement caused this is a dumbfuck move. Maybe instead of blaming the government, the owners of the building or the association of owners of the condos should've been performing regular inspections and maintenance. There's almost no way the evidence of failures and imminent collapse was not present.

And remind me, how do we compell those building owners to actually do the preventative maintenance and proactive inspections? Out of the good of their hearts and love for spending money on a non-profitable effort? 

[deadshank 24653]

14 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

How much does it cost to live there? I can’t imagine renting one out for my family and then falling asleep only to have that shit happen. I am assuming it fully occupied.

You in the market?  Probably get a great deal right now.

[Deej 76797]

56 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Some folks living in South Florida condos built in the 1980s are probably shitting themselves now.

Maybe Austin should buy up a few for our homeless?

[Nicole44 22060]

1 minute ago, deadshank said:

You in the market?  Probably get a great deal right now.

I think I saw an article about US congressman/women specifically buying property on the coast for that reason. Insurance. Fucking lawyers and loopholes. I couldn’t afford personally. Even if I could, I would just go to one bar. One of the best times I ever had. 
 

https://www.florabama.com

Their yacht club menu is amazing IMO. 

[smuggs 9353]

35 minutes ago, Zeus said:

Just my speculation on the cause of the collapse of course, but right now saying Florida's lax building code enforcement caused this is a dumbfuck move. Maybe instead of blaming the government, the owners of the building or the association of owners of the condos should've been performing regular inspections and maintenance. There's almost no way the evidence of failures and imminent collapse was not present.

This is rich coming from the guy who's own fucking temple lies in ruin. 

[tokamak 6431]

Watching that video, I don't see how anyone that was in the collapsed part survived. Fucking horrifying. Sleeping in the middle of the night and the goddamn building collapses and you fall 10 stories.

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

34 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

So for the structural architect/engineer types…(basically smarter than me—so most posters) if they did heavy work on the roof the day before the collapse? Could that have contributed to a column snapping? Not sure what work was being done on the roof or why. 

Yes. It has been discussed here with citations of similar overload cases and was my first guess based on overhead video footage not showing some gaping sinkhole. However, based on the preliminary security video footage, it sure does look like the action started at the bottom-so thinking shifted to sinkhole, water table, or some other kind of subsidence.  It will be interesting to see what the engineering investigation finds and what kind of issues,if any, were noted prior.

We see spans, bridges, walkways, tunnels and buildings under heavy repair or construction have catastrophic failures pretty regularly around the world.  I don't recall anything like this that came on without warning and was so sudden and almost precise in its failure.  I mean there are plenty of buildings that fall down but most of the time some flaw is noted, evacuations occur, the situation is monitored and it either collapses on its own or is demolished.

[wildcat09 29354]

55 minutes ago, Zeus said:

Lax enforcement of building codes?

Miami Dade is actually leading the way with requirements for testing for components and cladding. They've got their own system for cataloging all the tested materials:

https://www.miamidade.gov/building/pc-search_app.asp

They've also got their own test standards which were later adopted by ASTM, they are leading the way in creating requirements for testing.

https://www.miamidade.gov/building/testing.asp

At the end of the day construction projects don't do any better by having more government employees with their heads up their ass on the jobsite. It comes down to the contractor, the engineer, and the architect. If the owner is serious about quality control they hire a commissioning agent, who will go over the drawings then provide 3rd party QC to make sure everything is done right.

In this case it is likely everything was actually done right, but a 40 year old building without regular inspections and maintenance is going to potentially have problems. Especially with sinkholes that pop up in Florida. Actually Florida has codified the process of investigations for sinkholes.

Ground Subsidence Structural Damage Assessment (as per Florida Statute Title XXXVII, Chapter 627.706(k) “Structural Damage” definition)

Ground Subsidence Investigation (as per Florida Statute Title XXXVII, Chapter 627.7073)

They've made laws and written papers about it in Florida

https://ascelibrary.org/doi/pdf/10.1061/9780784412640.078

https://ascelibrary.org/doi/10.1061/41095(365)119

Usually it's someone's house. This time unfortunately it happened at 1000s of people's house.

Just my speculation on the cause of the collapse of course, but right now saying Florida's lax building code enforcement caused this is a dumbfuck move. Maybe instead of blaming the government, the owners of the building or the association of owners of the condos should've been performing regular inspections and maintenance. There's almost no way the evidence of failures and imminent collapse was not present.

I got some bad news for you about HOAs.

[South Austin 52515]

8 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Watching that video, I don't see how anyone that was in the collapsed part survived. Fucking horrifying. Sleeping in the middle of the night and the goddamn building collapses and you fall 10 stories.

Yeah, it's a safe bet that an overwhelming majority of those reported as missing are deceased. 

[Nicole44 22060]

2 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Yeah, it's a safe bet that an overwhelming majority of those reported as missing are deceased. 

That one boy they found…damn. 

[Zeus 6032]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

And remind me, how do we compell those building owners to actually do the preventative maintenance and proactive inspections? Out of the good of their hearts and love for spending money on a non-profitable effort? 

Ok create another new government body to force private building owners and associations to pay me for yearly inspections. I'd love it.

But the government sucks at everything, and doesn't even do inspections or maintenance on shit they've built, shit that is more critical for more people.

https://www.asce.org/infrastructure/ 

Right now the ASCE writes detailed reports about all the infrastructure that desperately needs attention, and it gets ignored because the ASCE doesn't have the money for the "lobbying" I guess. All the "infrastructure" money goes back into the pockets of people paying for the lobbying.

Expecting the government to efficiently compel building owners to inspect their buildings is a dream.

 

[BottleRocket 646]

I just had a thought.  What if you went to sleep only to be violently awoken with the sudden sensation of falling followed by instant death?  Then, in that exact moment, awake in the heavenly afterlife and realize that your time on earth was only a dream... or a nightmare?   

 

That creepy prayer that my mother taught me when I was a child suddenly makes since.

"If I should die before I wake, I give my soul for the Lord to take."

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by BottleRocket

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

40 minutes ago, BottleRocket said:

I just had a thought.  What if you went to sleep only to be violently awoken with the sudden sensation of falling followed by instant death?  Then, in that exact moment, awake in the heavenly afterlife and realize that your time on earth was only a dream... or a nightmare?   

That creepy prayer that my mother taught me when I was a child suddenly makes since.

"If I should die before I wake, I give my soul for the Lord to take."

Creepy? I’m not a believer but I wouldn’t call it creepy. Here’s how it went:

Now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to take

Not sure how you can find that creepy.