Mass casualty building collapse in Miami

[Brisketexan 105580]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The deck was acting as a diaphragm supporting the columns ?  Keeping them from deflecting out of plumb ?  Maybe in a wind load condition, but that's not what was going on was it ?

My very speculative guess is corroded rebar in concrete beams or a sink hole. Lots of water (salt water I'm guessing) was in parts of the basement.

Seems like that's the smart money guess based on what we know.  Water intrusion = bad things.  Saltwater intrusion = VERY bad things.

Y'all remember the old Queen Isabella Causeway to Padre?  I understood that they had to replace it because during construction, they used abundant seawater to mix the concrete.  And that did a number on the steel rebar reinforcement.  So, it had a limited life.  Saltwater does bad, bad shit to steel.

[Brisketexan 105580]

17 minutes ago, Ellellelle said:

I am really curious about the likelihood this happens to similar buildings in the area. Is that something people need to be concerned about?

If I lived in a building in that area, I would damned sure be engaging a structural engineer to look at that shit posthaste.  Common conditions, similar date/method of construction, I'd want to know if there is cause for concern.

[conVINCEd 21474]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If I lived in a building in that area, I would damned sure be engaging a structural engineer to look at that shit posthaste.  Common conditions, similar date/method of construction, I'd want to know if there is cause for concern.

I would move.

[ROFL BOX 6650]

 

Wouldn’t the condo association carry insurance to cover major structural damage though? Seems odd to have a special assessment for foundation type stuff.

In most cases, insurance restoration pays for "sudden & unexpected", which while it NOW is "S&U", an engineer's report like this (which ain't free / takes more than a day to compile) details long term & ongoing.

Insurance has no responsibilities to pay for your roof repair due to a tree rubbing your shingles & decking raw to where a damaging hole appears however if a storm blows that same tree onto your house, that's different AND is a covered peril.

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[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Seems like that's the smart money guess based on what we know.  Water intrusion = bad things.  Saltwater intrusion = VERY bad things.

Y'all remember the old Queen Isabella Causeway to Padre?  I understood that they had to replace it because during construction, they used abundant seawater to mix the concrete.  And that did a number on the steel rebar reinforcement.  So, it had a limited life.  Saltwater does bad, bad shit to steel.

That is very speculative thinking from a guy who designs in mostly wood, and some steel. Another thought is if the basement retaining walls, holding back water logged soil, the salt in the water corroded the rebar in those retaining walls causing a collapse of the building ??

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I would move.

I'd have been out of there the same day until they found out what caused the failure.

[crash_davis 23158]

how much will the building owners get sued for? and how long will their jail term be?

[C-Man 27353]

 

Wouldn’t the condo association carry insurance to cover major structural damage though? Seems odd to have a special assessment for foundation type stuff.

Again, my commercial insurance is super rusty but I don’t believe construction defects goes out any further than 10 years max and wear-and-tear isn’t a covered peril on any insurance policy that I run across. Better insurance policies on the individual condo-owner side can often include coverage for assessments like this. In the CNN story that atomheart and I linked last night, I saw that each unit owner owed $80K+ on up to $300K+ for the penthouse owner in assessments.

[ROFL BOX 6650]

I would move.

Based on these events & the general "freakout" nature of what's going on, I will bet you're not the only one thinking that AND realtors have probably seen a flat-lining or even dip in pricing for any building more than 30 years old.

Every condo association for a 30 year or older building in every coastal community in America is probably @ least scrambling to find an engineer for a similar analysis & not every engineer is qualified to take on a project of this scope.

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[ROFL BOX 6650]

how much will the building owners get sued for? and how long will their jail term be?

The "building owners" are the residents. It is a condo, not an apartment.

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[Brisketexan 105580]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

how much will the building owners get sued for? and how long will their jail term be?

It's a condo building, built 40 years ago.  The "building owners" are the residents and the HOA (made up of the residents).  So....there's probably not even a good defendant to sue in this case.  Someone may try to sue the engineers who gave the report in 2018, arguing that it should have said "danger, Will Robinson!  Building is not safe to occupy!"

[crash_davis 23158]

Just now, ROFL BOX said:

The "building owners" are the residents. It is a condo, not an apartment.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

It's a condo building, built 40 years ago.  The "building owners" are the residents and the HOA (made up of the residents).  So....there's probably not even a good defendant to sue in this case.  Someone may try to sue the engineers who gave the report in 2018, arguing that it should have said "danger, Will Robinson!  Building is not safe to occupy!"

I'll see myself out.

[conVINCEd 21474]

Just now, C-Man said:

Again, my commercial insurance is super rusty but I don’t believe construction defects goes out any further than 10 years max and wear-and-tear isn’t a covered peril on any insurance policy that I run across. Better insurance policies on the individual condo-owner side can often include coverage for assessments like this. In the CNN story I liked last night, I saw that each unit owner owed $80K+ on up to $300K+ for the penthouse owner in assessments.

In my limited experience, the coverage for assessments is normally pretty small ($5-10k).  That is a massive assessment.

[C-Man 27353]

The "building owners" are the residents. It is a condo, not an apartment.

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There is a master policy, though, maintained by the entity that owns the building in its entirety. After 40 years though, the COA might fully own it. The OG developer may have transferred 100% of interest over that period of time.


But there is a master policy covering the exterior walls, common areas, etc. Depending on how that policy is written, the condo-owners then have personal coverage to cover their units from the sheet-rock in. Museum Tower in Dallas’ master policy actually covers the exterior and the units as delivered in their original state. If you never remodel or upgrade, all you have to insure is your personal property and liability. This is not usually how condos get written, however.

At any rate, whatever entity “owns” the building will no longer exist when this is over. They’re proper fucked as nobody carries enough insurance to handle the judgements that are surely coming.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's a condo building, built 40 years ago.  The "building owners" are the residents and the HOA (made up of the residents).  So....there's probably not even a good defendant to sue in this case.  Someone may try to sue the engineers who gave the report in 2018, arguing that it should have said "danger, Will Robinson!  Building is not safe to occupy!"

That's exactly who will get the first litigant finger pointing.  The board didn't either believe the severity of the report, didn't think there was imminent grave danger (SEE: A Few Good Men) or the engineers didn't fully grasp how badly the structure had deteriorated (if that was the cause, which seems likely).

This is going to be a case study in engineering schools, and professional construction institutes around the world.

[C-Man 27353]

In my limited experience, the coverage for assessments is normally pretty small ($5-10k).  That is a massive assessment.

You’re right. But I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a million times you get what you pay for in the personal insurance world. These don’t look like condos that would be on Chubb/AIG/PURE/Cincinnati’s radar, though. Those are the carriers that *might* cover the entirety of an assessment like this. (There might be language baked in that excludes the assessment when it comes for the purpose of fixing something like this. Interesting question I might ask later.)

[Brisketexan 105580]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's exactly who will get the first litigant finger pointing.  The board didn't either believe the severity of the report, didn't think there was imminent grave danger (SEE: A Few Good Men) or the engineers didn't fully grasp how badly the structure had deteriorated (if that was the cause, which seems likely).

This is going to be a case study in engineering schools, and professional construction institutes around the world.

As to the bolded, no doubt.  I suspect that in the coming months, multiple structures (not just in the Miami area) are going to get an uncomfortable "we recommend that occupants evacuate" engineering report on their building, because the engineers they hire aren't gonna pussyfoot around with a "fix it soon, and you'll be okay."

[South Austin 52699]

Even without engineering reports on other buildings, I think it's safe to say that the market for South Florida condominium units is taking a bit of a dip.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

As to the bolded, no doubt.  I suspect that in the coming months, multiple structures (not just in the Miami area) are going to get an uncomfortable "we recommend that occupants evacuate" engineering report on their building, because the engineers they hire aren't gonna pussyfoot around with a "fix it soon, and you'll be okay."

It's not a happy thought, but I do hope this was human error related, and not a sink hole, cause the horror of that completely spontaneous, and unpredictable  situation is pretty damned scary to think about for anyone living in a geological zone like Florida.

[C-Man 27353]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's exactly who will get the first litigant finger pointing.  The board didn't either believe the severity of the report, didn't think there was imminent grave danger (SEE: A Few Good Men) or the engineers didn't fully grasp how badly the structure had deteriorated (if that was the cause, which seems likely).

This is going to be a case study in engineering schools, and professional construction institutes around the world.

I bet it went down exactly like tokamak said:

 

[HornOnTheBayou 8967]

40 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Seems like that's the smart money guess based on what we know.  Water intrusion = bad things.  Saltwater intrusion = VERY bad things.

Y'all remember the old Queen Isabella Causeway to Padre?  I understood that they had to replace it because during construction, they used abundant seawater to mix the concrete.  And that did a number on the steel rebar reinforcement.  So, it had a limited life.  Saltwater does bad, bad shit to steel.

Be careful, you're going to give 9/11 Truthers more ammo for their conspiracy theories. It wasn't jet fuel that melted steel, it was salt water which came from Nazis who everyone thought were living on a moon base, but were obviously hidden in an underwater base deep in the Atlantic.

[Brisketexan 105580]

Just now, HornOnTheBayou said:

Be careful, you're going to give 9/11 Truthers more ammo for their conspiracy theories. It wasn't jet fuel that melted steel, it was salt water which came from Nazis who everyone thought were living on a moon base, but were obviously hidden in an underwater base deep in the Atlantic.

You fucking abject moron.

The Nazis have BOTH bases -- moon AND undersea.  Do I have to explain everything to you?  DO THE RESEARCH.

[conVINCEd 21474]

1 minute ago, C-Man said:

I bet it went down exactly like tokamak said:

 

Yep.  I’ve heard of some massive shitstorms over $5k assessments, which is the primary reason I have no desire to ever own a condo.  You are business partners with every other resident, for better or worse, richer or poorer, til death do you part, and you know nothing about your new business partners prior to going into business together.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13541]

I don't see how insurance would protect against large assessments. After all, the home owners are the ones who assess themselves. Then the home owner would expect the insurance company to make them whole?  "I just assessed myself $1m to improve the condos, please send me a check minus my $500 deductible."

Recent sales show the basic units were $600-750K. That's a hefty ask of condo owners to pay a 80K assessment. Obviously it was needed. And most likely the negligence is from 10, 15, 40 years ago. Not the last home owners meeting.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You fucking abject moron.

The Nazis have BOTH bases -- moon AND undersea.  Do I have to explain everything to you?  DO THE RESEARCH.

You're both wrong, it's the aliens living in undersea caves. Seriously we've seen the Naval footage of the spacecraft plunging down under the waves.  

Now they could be Nazi aliens....

[ABSR 5327]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You're both wrong, it's the aliens living in undersea caves. Seriously we've seen the Naval footage of the spacecraft plunging down under the waves.  

Now they could be Nazi aliens....

Do you even Lizard People, bro?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 minutes ago, ABSR said:

Do you even Lizard People, bro?

I...I ..... don't need bad memories of anal probes being dredged up.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13541]

15 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Yep.  I’ve heard of some massive shitstorms over $5k assessments, which is the primary reason I have no desire to ever own a condo.  You are business partners with every other resident, for better or worse, richer or poorer, til death do you part, and you know nothing about your new business partners prior to going into business together.

I'm right here with you. You could find yourself in a mess where the majority are about spending the owner's money on constant repairs and upgrades, or they're the opposite and don't want to spend a dime. You're at the mercy of the majority but you always have the option of selling.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

You guys are close but all wrong. 
 

Netflix has this that will get you caught up:

 

[conVINCEd 21474]

12 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I don't see how insurance would protect against large assessments. After all, the home owners are the ones who assess themselves. Then the home owner would expect the insurance company to make them whole?  "I just assessed myself $1m to improve the condos, please send me a check minus my $500 deductible."

Recent sales show the basic units were $600-750K. That's a hefty ask of condo owners to pay a 80K assessment. Obviously it was needed. And most likely the negligence is from 10, 15, 40 years ago. Not the last home owners meeting.

That is why there is generally a cap on the amount paid out for assessments.    My experience in dealing with this is limited to Texas, where the assessment will generally be made to cover the large deductible on the master policy for exterior damage.  In North Texas, that normally means hail damage to the roof.  For the individual condo owners with above average insurance, their coverage is generally enough to cover an event like that.   I have not seen it play out from a claims perspective on something that’s optional or cosmetic, like painting the exterior of every unit, but my impression is that it would still be covered.  If there was some shenanigans going on all bets are off, but it would be difficult to get all of the individual condo owners to agree to commit insurance fraud together, when as we have seen, they couldn’t agree to make repairs to keep their building from collapsing.

[jimmyjazz 46479]

43 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's exactly who will get the first litigant finger pointing.  The board didn't either believe the severity of the report, didn't think there was imminent grave danger (SEE: A Few Good Men) or the engineers didn't fully grasp how badly the structure had deteriorated (if that was the cause, which seems likely).

It's not necessarily an easy failure to predict, though.  Raising the red flag and getting ignored could shift a lot of that blame.  It could easily be that they did what they were hired to do and the HOA didn't agree to followon work (just spitballing, things like ultrasonic inspection, etc., but they may have done that, I'd have to read the report).

[atomheartbevo 90056]

2 hours ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

My gut feeling is still that a drunk asshole drove into the parking garage and hit a corroded column.

1 hour ago, Upgrayedd said:

Doubt it was foundation failure.  Looks more like the podium deck/diaphragm gave way.  Those pics from below the pool are terrible 

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The deck was acting as a diaphragm supporting the columns ?  Keeping them from deflecting out of plumb ?  Maybe in a wind load condition, but that's not what was going on was it ?

My very speculative guess is corroded rebar in concrete beams or a sink hole. Lots of water (salt water I'm guessing) was in parts of the basement.

41 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's exactly who will get the first litigant finger pointing.  The board didn't either believe the severity of the report, didn't think there was imminent grave danger (SEE: A Few Good Men) or the engineers didn't fully grasp how badly the structure had deteriorated (if that was the cause, which seems likely).

This is going to be a case study in engineering schools, and professional construction institutes around the world.

Everybody gets a prize.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/champlain-towers-parking-garage-flooded-often-before-collapse-residents-and-ex-worker-say/ar-AALyroI

Quote

Reports of leaks and flooding in the parking garage of Champlain Towers South stretch back decades.

Quote

“There was always water there,” said John Turis, who was in Brooklyn when the Surfside, Fla., condominium building collapsed. “There was always water in the garage. There was always water leaking — it used to leak on my car all of the time.” 

William Espinosa, who said he oversaw maintenance at the building from about 1995 to 2000, told CBS 4 Miami that saltwater would seep through the building’s foundation during particularly high tides. Employees would use two large pumps to force it out, he said. 

Quote

“The water would just basically sit there, and then it would just seep downward,” Espinosa said. “I’m talking about a foot, sometimes two feet, of water in the bottom of the parking lot, the whole parking lot.” 

Espinosa said that when he alerted building managers to the rising water, they said the issue had been going on for years and they did not take action. 

“But I go, ‘You know that it’s endless,’ ” he said. “And I go: ‘This is just not normal. I mean, this is just too much water.’ ”

Quote

Frank P. Morabito, an engineer who inspected the building, warned in October 2018 that he had discovered “major structural damage” to a concrete slab below the pool deck in the section of the building that collapsed Thursday, records show. He said in the October structural report that waterproofing below the pool deck and entrance drive had failed, allowing damaging leaks. 

Several witnesses reported seeing water flood the parking garage shortly before Thursday’s collapse. A valet parking attendant told Local 10 that at least one car had to back out of the garage because the space was filling with water shortly before the building fell.

 

[atomheartbevo 90056]

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/miami-florida-building-collapse-06-29-21/h_485421ed1230c62f12ddba2c3444ffa6

Quote

Erick de Moura, a resident of the partially collapsed building in Surfside, Florida, said he is alive today because he stayed over at his girlfriend’s home on Wednesday night.

“I was supposed to come back home because I had some appointments in the morning. And I was right at the door about to leave,” de Moura told CNN’s John Berman. 
“But she kept insisting for me to stay. And when I woke up at 5:30 to check my phone … I had some notifications telling me that the building had collapsed.”

[Incredulity 11693]

from a WaPo article on building issues

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/champlain-towers-south-surfside/2021/06/26/a509519a-d5de-11eb-a53a-3b5450fdca7a_story.html

Building code compliance records from 2015 to 2021 show a litany of minor code violations that suggest a somewhat haphazard management approach, but none that suggest a likely cause of collapse. The code violations include expired elevator certifications, an expired fire extinguisher panel certification, lights that don’t comply with sea turtle conservation rules, gates that don’t close properly, holes in the wall in the stairwell and “an excess of accumulated water on the pavement in the garage, possibly due to a leaky sprinkler,” and other issues.

 

 

That's the last straw...

 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13541]

The quote about the parking garage routinely having a 1-2 foot of water is nuts. Or the pumps having to frequently replaced because they were constantly pumping out water. That can't be normal, right?

[Murfdogg21 4486]

38 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Recent sales show the basic units were $600-750K. That's a hefty ask of condo owners to pay a 80K assessment. Obviously it was needed. And most likely the negligence is from 10, 15, 40 years ago. Not the last home owners meeting.

I wonder how many recent sellers get dragged into court if they new about the need for repairs and didn’t disclose it to a buyer who is now dead. 

[mchookem 16525]

all those Miami House Hunter episodes are gonna have to be re-shot

[Nice Guy Eddie 13541]

1 minute ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I wonder how many recent sellers get dragged into court if they new about the need for repairs and didn’t disclose it to a buyer who is now dead. 

I imagine there are many people talking to lawyers about their liability.  Or they're just keeping their heads low, hoping no one contacts them.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

22 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It's not necessarily an easy failure to predict, though.  Raising the red flag and getting ignored could shift a lot of that blame.  It could easily be that they did what they were hired to do and the HOA didn't agree to followon work (just spitballing, things like ultrasonic inspection, etc., but they may have done that, I'd have to read the report).

Oh yeah, they could have been correct in their assessment of the condition, and they could have missed places where it was worse, and the deterioration could have accelerated.  I don't think they have any standing to go after the engineer.  

Reading about the standing water I'm leaning more to an exterior basement wall collapsing because the rebar had corroded, and the wall caved in.  Concrete is very strong in compressive strength, not so much in shear or when lateral forces are applied.

[Jiggy-Z 3469]

9 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The quote about the parking garage routinely having a 1-2 foot of water is nuts. Or the pumps having to frequently replaced because they were constantly pumping out water. That can't be normal, right?

Seawater, perhaps not.  I'm not sure how they deal with that.

The pilings or drilled piers would be another interesting discussion.  I think they are less likely to corrode given their limited access to oxidation even in the presence of seawater, but again, I am not an engineer, just a dumb concrete guy.

I do have CSB on basement water intrusion:  On the Austin Convention Center Hilton lowest level of the parking garage-The subterranean water proofing system and walls were installed incorrectly as was the French drain under the parking level.  When the water table rose, the sump pump was unable to keep up and the French Drain system backed up.  Before we fixed it there was regularly 3' of water in the basement.

The solution was to abandon the installed French Drain system and install a new one along with a second sump pit and pump.  Then, about 1,200 holes were drilled into the wall and were set with a manifold system, sealed and then piped to the sumps.  The walls were then treated with a crystallizing compound that helped but did not eliminate seepage.

It was several million $ to fix. 

 

[Degenerate Gardner 4104]

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

I would move.

Rational decisions and Florida have a strained relationship.

[atomheartbevo 90056]

16 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The quote about the parking garage routinely having a 1-2 foot of water is nuts. Or the pumps having to frequently replaced because they were constantly pumping out water. That can't be normal, right?

I've only lived in two houses that had basements, and I've worked in a few large buildings that had basements, but even if they had just a few inches of water in the basements and the pumps were having to constantly run, I'd have had major concerns.

[tokamak 6462]

6 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I imagine there are many people talking to lawyers about their liability.  Or they're just keeping their heads low, hoping no one contacts them.

In post #396, @lemonlime posted a news article with a current resident claiming he'd never seen the engineer's report from 2018. If that's the case, recent sellers are not obligated to disclose what they don't know about. Lawyers for survivors and their families are licking their chops at the idea that the board didn't inform the rank-and-file homeowners about the report.

[atomheartbevo 90056]

6 minutes ago, tokamak said:

In post #396, @lemonlime posted a news article with a current resident claiming he'd never seen the engineer's report from 2018. If that's the case, recent sellers are not obligated to disclose what they don't know about. Lawyers for survivors and their families are licking their chops at the idea that the board didn't inform the rank-and-file homeowners about the report.

Feels like if all of the owners had heard about the report, that it might have been acted on much sooner.  Technically, they were acting on it in 2019, but their talk about they have to shop around for estimates, etc....it just doesn't seem like it should take that long to get the ball moving on something that affects the safety of everybody.

But it's an HOA, and my experiences with HOAs have cumulatively  been far more negative than positive.  To quote Nice Guy Eddie:

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I don't have extensive history with condo boards, assessments and votes, but what I do have is all negative. Every owner brings their own future vision, current needs and bank account balances to the discussion. Ultimately there is a majority view which may not be the best for the long term benefit to the condos.

I've experienced boards treat optional repairs as mandatory, so if they go back to the owners with an actual mandatory expense, it can be met with trepidation if not mistrust. Not to mention that personal feelings and petty fights go into the mix. And no one would ever believe a board stating that the building is about to collapse.

[mchookem 16525]

15 minutes ago, tokamak said:

  Lawyers for survivors and their families are licking their chops at the idea that the board didn't inform the rank-and-file homeowners about the report.

maybe... but isn't it just as likely that many of 'the board' are currently buried under tons of rubble? 😕

never lived in a condo complex, HOA, a board, etc... i'm wrapping my head around the idea that the owners could potentially be responsible for this themselves...is that right?? good lord 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

22 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I've only lived in two houses that had basements, and I've worked in a few large buildings that had basements, but even if they had just a few inches of water in the basements and the pumps were having to constantly run, I'd have had major concerns.

Concerns yeah, but typically water isn't a structural issue in a basement, especially a house. That's usually a drainage issue.

[Gatorubet 30411]

Rational decisions and Florida have a strained relationship.

[Buzzrock 15026]

3 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

No.  They are going slow on purpose so people can die.  smh

That seems irresponsible. smh 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13541]

It's questionable if the board withheld info from the owners. It sounds as if they were starting the repairs or at least starting the assessment so the owners must have signed off on it.  I assume a board can't sign off, without wider support, on an assessment that could equal 10% of the value of an unit. 

Now that doesn't mean some owners were aware of the severity or perhaps they didn't bother to pay attention. 

[Prepuce of Doom 21118]

59 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The quote about the parking garage routinely having a 1-2 foot of water is nuts. Or the pumps having to frequently replaced because they were constantly pumping out water. That can't be normal, right?

The fucking tides cause routine flooding there. On days with significant rainfall (hint: this happens often...) entire portions of the beach and the mainland flood. 

Here is an unremarkable news clip that shows the baseline for "normal" in South Florida (hint: nothing - flooding or otherwise - is normal there).