Mass casualty building collapse in Miami

[WhatTheBuck 28,788]

10 hours ago, Jiggy-Z said:

OK.  Let's fill in some blanks.

So in 2018 there was an engineering report that was commissioned by the board/HOA.

Report comes out with findings and recommendations in 2019?

Then, possible missing step I have not heard about...Report is received by a different structural engineer for actual plans and specifications based on report

Plans and specifications issued as construction documents-when______________.

Construction documents sent out for bids and proposals-when_______________.

Contractor selected-when______________________

Contractor contracted -when__________________

Contractor submittal documents turned in and approved-when______________

Construction-when________________

WARNING: LARKS’ VOMIT

That’s what was missing from the report. 

[Rip76 4,945]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Speaking of Chinese construction earlier

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/j-hotel-shanghai-tower-china-intl-hnk/index.html

\

Me either 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

I was on a high floor of a Dallas skyscraper during a pretty big storm and you could feel that fucker shimmy a little bit from the high winds.  Also happened in LA when there was a little tremor.  No fucking thank you to something 4X as tall built in China.

[justhookit 4,191]

11 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

my guess is that last part.  

I witnessed it first hand during the 03-08 mortgage crises.

ive had numerous interactions with people regarding lifestyle-critical conversations,  even pre-smartphone, these folks would just daydream while you went over the details on them.   The sheer number of times they would try and cherry pick what they wanted at the last minute because they "didnt understand" was a pretty ridiculous percentage of the time, considering that getting to an actual closing meant we had had a minimum of 10 calls, at least 2 face to face meetings, and gone over the difference between adjustable rate and fixed (ad nauseum). 

which is why I scoff at the media portraying all mortgage people prior to 2004 being slimeballs and the poor homeowners had no fucking idea what they were signing....   I fully agree that there were 2-3% of the mortgage folks who were probably given erroneous information.   But the other 97% chose to only hear what they wanted regarding what they were signing.

These same homeowners would start off demanding a fixed rate loan, get a quote for that loan and est monthly payment... go home.... then call   Mikey the OTHER Mortgage guy, tell Mikey that AUS-97 quoted them a $1457.60 Monthly payment  and can he beat that price?     Mikey quotes an adjustable rate note (because they NEVER TOLD HIM IT HAD TO BE FIXED)... and hes quoting it at $1,087.40 monthly.   They then accuse you of trying to fuck them over... and you had a 25% chance to earn back their business by presenting an ajustable rate to them and explain that its adjustable, thats what Mikey quoted you  (insert back and forth of they guarantee its fixed, you tell them to call Mikey is it adjustable)....

and it was 25% you won because thats the percentage of people who will admit they were wrong and accept your explanation.   The other 75% just thought I fucked them, went with Mikey, and since they asked ME for a fixed rate, they assumed thats what Mikey was giving them... until closing... and even then when they would inital on  the "this is an adjustable rate mortgage whose monthly amount due will change in 5 years" line... they still think they are fixed... then 5 years later, poof adjustable rate kicks in and they scream they were mislead.....  bullshit. 

It got so bad that we had customers hand write a letter at closing where they agreed that they understood they were getting an adjustable rate loan, not a fixed loan and the loan price could change in 2,3,5,7,10 years depending on the type they got.    I  STILL had customers formally complain that we sold them a 2 year adjustable rate loan when they were guaranteed a fixed rate.... and we presented their handwritten note which was signed, dated, notarized (with the stamp) they said they were FORCED to sign that letter and note or they wouldnt "get" the loan......   uh.... yeah thats kinda how a refi works people.

This is one of the strangest posts I’ve ever seen, and I myself have had a few in the last week or so.

[Superhero 8,830]

Not a civil engineer, but I see structural drawings with renovation notes fairly frequently.

My guess is the rebar was corroding - and 2” of concrete cover (distance from concrete surface to the rebar inside concrete element) soaked in sea water will DEFINITELY not protect it.

They needed epoxy coated rebar with GOOD touch up work (epoxy rebar after it’s tied together will likely have some epoxy scuffed off) AND probably needed a different foundation system.

My speculation is that in the area, their original foundation was piles pounded into the soil with pile caps. IMO, and I’m not civil engineer here, they should have had piles and a mat slab with waterproofing underneath and wrapping up the sides. But even with floods, it’s very likely the water got past the waterproofing and corroded the rebar, which would have reduced the ability of the columns to withstand any tension forces which are still present even though they are primarily in compression.

With the extend of damage, they would have had to get below the slab, tie a new rebar cage around the existing column, enlarged it, and wrapped the shit out of it with fiber wrap and waterproofing. They probably needed to fiber wrapped the columns going up the building. So the first floor tenants would have to move out while the work is being done. And the tenants on upper levels would have crews tearing up drywall to get to the columns. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done, but strengthening existing concrete structures is difficult and expensive, not to mention the inconvenience of moving the tenants out while doing the work.

But I’m just a dumb estimator and not a registered civil engineer so what do I know. 

[HouTex 1,885]

I was on a high floor of a Dallas skyscraper during a pretty big storm and you could feel that fucker shimmy a little bit from the high winds.  Also happened in LA when there was a little tremor.  No fucking thank you to something 4X as tall built in China.

That happens during just about every thunderstorm or other strong wind event in Chase Tower downtown Houston. Sometimes the window blinds are banging against the window frame so hard it’s hard to work.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

There is a sizable chunk of insurance money and land value that the lawyers will be chasing. But even the surviving owners have a claim at that as they lost or will be losing their homes. Assuming the whole building will be demolished but perhaps not.

[Hefeweizen 5,328]

13 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

Curious... of all responding here, who has any engineering (civil, structural) training or experience?

My brother is in the thick of it down there (field C.E.) & we had a decent conversation 4 days ago.

A lot that has been discussed in this thread came up, esp. WRT condo boards, associations, etc

PE and civil but not structural.  But I’ve been an expert witness in enough litigation and administrative hearings to have seen lots of different failures.  
 

I am definitely not offering any expert opinion here while generally posting drunk or distracted.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 hour ago, HouTex said:

That happens during just about every thunderstorm or other strong wind event in Chase Tower downtown Houston. Sometimes the window blinds are banging against the window frame so hard it’s hard to work.

And they're designed too allow for that movement.

[HouTex 1,885]

50 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And they're designed too allow for that movement.

Yep.

As bad as this apparent engineering/maintenance failure is, it's not the first and it won't be the last structural failure.  Thankfully, they are rare.  The Hyatt hotel walkway collapse in Kansas City killed over 100 people in 1981 and the Oakland/SF area double deck freeway collapse during the 1989 World Series earthquake killed over 40.  Who had the bright idea to build a double deck freeway in the middle of earthquake central and then not design it well enough to withstand a major earthquake?  Those are just two events that I recall in my lifetime.  Probably several more if I think about it a while. 

[faps 806]

2 minutes ago, HouTex said:

Yep.

As bad as this apparent engineering/maintenance failure is, it's not the first and it won't be the last structural failure.  Thankfully, they are rare.  The Hyatt hotel walkway collapse in Kansas City killed over 100 people in 1981 and the Oakland/SF area double deck freeway collapse during the 1989 World Series earthquake killed over 40.  Who had the bright idea to build a double deck freeway in the middle of earthquake central and then not design it well enough to withstand a major earthquake?  Those are just two events that I recall in my lifetime.  Probably several more if I think about it a while. 

There was also a pretty big engineering fuck up 3 years ago about 15 miles from this condo collapse. The FIU pedestrian bridge collapse.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And they're designed too allow for that movement.

I’m aware of that.  It doesn’t change the fact that I don’t like being on the 50th floor when it is happening.

[South Austin 52,521]

39 minutes ago, HouTex said:

The Hyatt hotel walkway collapse in Kansas City killed over 100 people in 1981 and the Oakland/SF area double deck freeway collapse during the 1989 World Series earthquake killed over 40.  Who had the bright idea to build a double deck freeway in the middle of earthquake central and then not design it well enough to withstand a major earthquake?  Those are just two events that I recall in my lifetime.  Probably several more if I think about it a while. 

This chair fell down.  Not property weighted.  Lots of lessons learned on this one.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

34 minutes ago, HouTex said:

Yep.

As bad as this apparent engineering/maintenance failure is, it's not the first and it won't be the last structural failure.  Thankfully, they are rare.  The Hyatt hotel walkway collapse in Kansas City killed over 100 people in 1981 and the Oakland/SF area double deck freeway collapse during the 1989 World Series earthquake killed over 40.  Who had the bright idea to build a double deck freeway in the middle of earthquake central and then not design it well enough to withstand a major earthquake?  Those are just two events that I recall in my lifetime.  Probably several more if I think about it a while. 

 Very true unfortunately, but thankfully the U.S. has pretty good building standards, and practices.  The Tacoma Narrows bridge failure is one of the more dramatic, and film documented events in the last 100 years. 

The CA. double deck roadway failure was a head scratcher.  How they didn't get that one right is beyond me.

With the advent of computer aided design, and computer modeling capabilities there really shouldn't be any design/calculation issues for anything really. The issues will still occur in the field when construction practices don't meet specifications precisely. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

7 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I’m aware of that.  It doesn’t change the fact that I don’t like being on the 50th floor when it is happening.

Oh I hear you.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, South Austin said:

This chair fell down.  Not property weighted.  Lots of lessons learned on this one.

If those fucking chairs had been made of concrete we wouldn't have to witness that kind of tragedy.

[Brisketexan 105,161]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

There is a sizable chunk of insurance money and land value that the lawyers will be chasing. But even the surviving owners have a claim at that as they lost or will be losing their homes. Assuming the whole building will be demolished but perhaps not.

It's not just the survivors who have a claim on it - the estates do as well.

Dead Resident Jones, if an owner of a condo, owns a share of the dirt by virtue of being a member of the HOA (or some similar arrangement).  That's the challenge here in terms of trying to recover any value: the only real value left (the dirt) belongs to the exact same people and estates who will be the primary plaintiffs.  Otherwise, the pool of available $$$ to pay any judgment isn't going to be very big.  The HOA's account, MAYBE a small insurance policy or two.  In terms of property damage and death values, this is easily a 9 figure damages case.  But there's not anywhere close to that in available assets/money to pay that amount.

[Brisketexan 105,161]

28 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

I’m aware of that.  It doesn’t change the fact that I don’t like being on the 50th floor when it is happening.

My old man was in a Houston high-rise in 86, when the big Mexico City quake hit.  They felt it there - everyone could feel the whole building sway.  It was a bit unnerving, he recalls -- esp. because it was out of the blue.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

My old man was in a Houston high-rise in 86, when the big Mexico City quake hit.  They felt it there - everyone could feel the whole building sway.  It was a bit unnerving, he recalls -- esp. because it was out of the blue.

We had a tremor here in Va. back in '09 or so.  4.0-5.0 maybe, I was in the mezzanine of a 1900's masonry structure, it was shaking, and rumbling all around me. I was watching the huge plate glass windows next door (8' wide x 10' tall) in a similarity aged building, wave, and flex like they were liquid. They flexed at least a foot out of plane, and didn't break.  It was amazing to watch, puckered anal sphincter and all.

[Hefeweizen 5,328]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 Very true unfortunately, but thankfully the U.S. has pretty good building standards, and practices.  The Tacoma Narrows bridge failure is one of the more dramatic, and film documented events in the last 100 years. 

The CA. double deck roadway failure was a head scratcher.  How they didn't get that one right is beyond me.

With the advent of computer aided design, and computer modeling capabilities there really shouldn't be any design/calculation issues for anything really. The issues will still occur in the field when construction practices don't meet specifications precisely. 

I review a lot of water system models and I can tell you there is plenty of bullshit results that get sealed and incorporated into reports, CIP studies, and long range plans.  Garbage in garbage out still has a big influence on computer models.

Same for stream and hydrology models.  Plenty of terrible work on those resulting in bad design for culverts, bridges, and levees.

[jimmyjazz 45,986]

As a boy, I was on about the 5th floor of a St. Louis office buildingwhen a decent earthquake hit -- about 5.0.

I don't want to do that again.

[GopherRock 1,765]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 

The CA. double deck roadway failure was a head scratcher.  How they didn't get that one right is beyond me.

In the early 1950s, when the Cypress Street Viaduct was designed (along with its twins, the Embarcadero Freeway in SFO and the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle), the impact of soil liquefaction due to earthquakes on structures was not well understood. IIRC, it wasn't until some time later that the engineers were able to quantify and determine methods to mitigate this. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

 Very true unfortunately, but thankfully the U.S. has pretty good building standards, and practices.  The Tacoma Narrows bridge failure is one of the more dramatic, and film documented events in the last 100 years. 

The CA. double deck roadway failure was a head scratcher.  How they didn't get that one right is beyond me.

With the advent of computer aided design, and computer modeling capabilities there really shouldn't be any design/calculation issues for anything really. The issues will still occur in the field when construction practices don't meet specifications precisely. 

Do we have good practices? If you're in a high-rise/mid-rise condo building, I imagine many do not keep up with adequate repairs. To do so, you have to get people to vote to charge themselves large assessments. If you rent your place, plan to sell soon and are broke/cheap then you will most likely vote against assessments.

Obviously we do not see buildings dropping every day but hopefully this isn't a sign of the future. It's some 3rd world crap to see this.

[RPM 26,326]

Just now, GopherRock said:

In the early 1950s, when the Cypress Street Viaduct was designed (along with its twins, the Embarcadero Freeway in SFO and the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle), the impact of soil liquefaction due to earthquakes on structures was not well understood. IIRC, it wasn't until some time later that the engineers were able to quantify and determine methods to mitigate this. 

I was going to mention Alaskan Way looked exactly like the Cali freeway that collapsed.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

21 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Do we have good practices? If you're in a high-rise/mid-rise condo building, I imagine many do not keep up with adequate repairs. To do so, you have to get people to vote to charge themselves large assessments. If you rent your place, plan to sell soon and are broke/cheap then you will most likely vote against assessments.

Obviously we do not see buildings dropping every day but hopefully this isn't a sign of the future. It's some 3rd world crap to see this.

I'm talking about initial construction. We suck at follow up.

[tokamak 6,432]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm talking about initial construction. We suck at follow up.

Everyone likes to build. Nobody likes to maintain. True in almost all endeavors.

[C-Man 27,234]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not just the survivors who have a claim on it - the estates do as well.

Dead Resident Jones, if an owner of a condo, owns a share of the dirt by virtue of being a member of the HOA (or some similar arrangement).  That's the challenge here in terms of trying to recover any value: the only real value left (the dirt) belongs to the exact same people and estates who will be the primary plaintiffs.  Otherwise, the pool of available $$$ to pay any judgment isn't going to be very big.  The HOA's account, MAYBE a small insurance policy or two.  In terms of property damage and death values, this is easily a 9 figure damages case.  But there's not anywhere close to that in available assets/money to pay that amount.

All of this. Insurance will pay very little. The only thing of value is the land.

[Brisketexan 105,161]

4 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Everyone likes to build. Nobody likes to maintain. True in almost all endeavors.

STAY OUT OF MY MARRIAGE.

[wild_turkey 3,167]

But even the surviving owners have a claim at that as they lost or will be losing their homes. Assuming the whole building will be demolished but perhaps not.

Who in their right mind would ever live in the remaining 1/3 of the building? How would you ever sell a unit?

The remaining property owners are probably hoping for a complete demo and some degree of insurance settlement because their property is nearly worthless even while still standing.

[HouTex 1,885]

My old man was in a Houston high-rise in 86, when the big Mexico City quake hit.  They felt it there - everyone could feel the whole building sway.  It was a bit unnerving, he recalls -- esp. because it was out of the blue.

I was in Chase Tower when that happened. I felt it but I don’t recall being scared or anything. I was in my shower in Briargrove when the gas pipeline leak outside of Brenham blew up in the early 90’s. That sounded like thunder a few miles away.

[ROFL BOX 6,649]

3 hours ago, GopherRock said:

 the impact of soil liquefaction due to earthquakes on structures was not well understood.

Username checks out.

[ROFL BOX 6,649]

2 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

their property is nearly worth even less even while still standing & in need of an expensive total clearing for whatever is left onsite.

 

FIFY

[lemonlime 5,503]

Who in their right mind would ever live in the remaining 1/3 of the building? How would you ever sell a unit?

The remaining property owners are probably hoping for a complete demo and some degree of insurance settlement because their property is nearly worthless even while still standing.

They’re probably hoping only for insurance money. They probably owe money on the property at this point. There’s going to have to be remediation and clean up from the collapse and the fires. Never mind that no one would ever want to buy that lot and build on it again.

[ROFL BOX 6,649]

2 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Never mind that no one would ever want to buy that lot and build on it again.

While the market for beachside condos in that area are probably flatlined or going down a bit, any building within 1/4 mile or more has also probably suffered on pricing.  There was talk about the soil (pilings, really) having issues & any non-engineer is going to get their freak out on about some kind of similar problem.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Had a client come in today, and said that he heard tenants had been removing load bearing walls to create more open floor plans.  I haven't heard that reported anywhere else so far.

[woohorn 1,131]

I can't believe that lot will be used for anything other than a memorial park in the future.

[Deej 76,842]

8 minutes ago, woohorn said:

I can't believe that lot will be used for anything other than a memorial park in the future.

An IHOP would be appropriate on that lot. 

[Jiggy-Z 3,433]

12 minutes ago, woohorn said:

I can't believe that lot will be used for anything other than a memorial park in the future.

Maybe it was built on a memorial park already..... but they only moved the headstones.

[Hate 20,117]

I can't believe that lot will be used for anything other than a memorial park in the future.

[Degenerate Gardner 4,085]

.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Degenerate Gardner
Stuff

[South Austin 52,521]

11 minutes ago, Hate said:

[atomheartbevo 89,735]

2 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

While the market for beachside condos in that area are probably flatlined or going down a bit, any building within 1/4 mile or more has also probably suffered on pricing.  There was talk about the soil (pilings, really) having issues & any non-engineer is going to get their freak out on about some kind of similar problem.

So, just build 2-story condos instead?

[ftf82 485]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not just the survivors who have a claim on it - the estates do as well.

Dead Resident Jones, if an owner of a condo, owns a share of the dirt by virtue of being a member of the HOA (or some similar arrangement).  That's the challenge here in terms of trying to recover any value: the only real value left (the dirt) belongs to the exact same people and estates who will be the primary plaintiffs.  Otherwise, the pool of available $$$ to pay any judgment isn't going to be very big.  The HOA's account, MAYBE a small insurance policy or two.  In terms of property damage and death values, this is easily a 9 figure damages case.  But there's not anywhere close to that in available assets/money to pay that amount.

And quite a few of those condos, and their interests in the land, are mortgaged. It's a pricy beachside project, so maybe not all, but I bet over 50% of them have mortgages that will be in front of any judgment claims against the land.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

59 minutes ago, Deej said:

An IHOP would be appropriate on that lot. 

Ohhhhh you are gonna fucking burn.

[Upgrayedd 5,815]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Had a client come in today, and said that he heard tenants had been removing load bearing walls to create more open floor plans.  I haven't heard that reported anywhere else so far.

Don't see many load-bearing walls interior to the unit in Type I-A or I-B, right?  Skeptical of that rumor.

[Deej 76,842]

25 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Ohhhhh you are gonna fucking burn.

That won't be the one that does me in. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

That won't be the one that does me in. 

Do you factor in cumulative affect  ?

[wild_turkey 3,167]

Champlain Towers address is 8855 Collins Ave. A quick Zillow search for recently sold properties at that address shows a unit that sold on 6/18/21 and another on 4/16/21.
Imagine being the previous owners that got out right before disaster struck. Imagine being family of the new owners, knowing your loved ones moved into a condo shortly before in collapsed with them inside.

[Foosters 17,858]

10 hours ago, HouTex said:

Yep.

As bad as this apparent engineering/maintenance failure is, it's not the first and it won't be the last structural failure.  Thankfully, they are rare.  The Hyatt hotel walkway collapse in Kansas City killed over 100 people in 1981 and the Oakland/SF area double deck freeway collapse during the 1989 World Series earthquake killed over 40.  Who had the bright idea to build a double deck freeway in the middle of earthquake central and then not design it well enough to withstand a major earthquake?  Those are just two events that I recall in my lifetime.  Probably several more if I think about it a while. 

I currently work in a 19 story building in LA that was built in the late 60s. In 2019 a report was commissioned that listed it, along with multiple other state and county buildings as "very high risk" for major damage or collapse should a massive quake hit. I honestly think when the next "big" one hits LA - and I mean plus 7.5, we're going to see many, many buildings in downtown Los Angeles suffer total collapse. Side note, anyone know where I can purchase a cyanide capsule?

[atomheartbevo 89,735]

Fuck.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/30/us/miami-dade-building-collapse-wednesday/index.html

Quote

The bodies of 10-year-old Lucia Guara and 4-year-old Emma Guara were found Wednesday, Miami-Dade police said, adding the girls were sisters.