Mass casualty building collapse in Miami

[Gatorubet 30313]

Better explanation of the legal problems and how the repairs would have been/should have been made and such surround the Surfside condo collapse.
“An important thing to know about Champlain Towers South is that it’s a condominium. Different people own individual units, and when repairs need to be made to the building as a whole, they’ve got to find a way to pay for them collectively. They elect a board to manage these kinds of decisions. All the way back in 2018, the condo board retained an inspector who assessed the stability of the tower. He found a “major error” in the integrity of the bottom floor of the building. Residents were informed of the problem but spent years negotiating how and whether to fix millions of dollars of damage.
 “There were structural deficiencies identified that probably went back all the way to the construction of this building. And a lot of it has to do just with the fact that the pool deck was built flat, which is a huge no-no. I mean, even me, as a non-construction person, knows you don’t build flat.”
“You don’t build flat because water accumulates on flat, and then it will seep down and cause structural damage. At least in Florida, you don’t build a flat roof. You build a sloped roof so that if it rains, it doesn’t pool on your roof and cause leaking. But what this engineer report found is that going back to the very beginning of this building basically, they built a concrete slab that was flat for the pool deck. And what that meant over years and decades is that water, as it accumulated from rain or from storm surges, which happen every once in a while, it was seeping down into that and causing changes at the geologic level. This was accumulating under there and causing issues on the pillars that the building stands on, that the whole property stands on.“
Do we know if residents in the building fought the repairs, said, “Maybe this isn’t necessary”?
We do know, actually. USA Today had a fantastic story out on Monday evening—heartbreaking story too, though, because it really documents, over the course of the last couple years, the condo board had been pushing for residents to get on board for these repairs. And they couldn’t get people on the same page. And the longer they pushed it back, the higher the costs got, because the repairs—it accelerates if you don’t address it. And because it needed to be this collectivized kind of decision, they couldn’t reach that kind of decision and they couldn’t make the repairs that needed to be done.
https://slate.com/business/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-florida-building-industry-crisis.amp?__twitter_impression=true
 
It is a fascinating read honestly. Tragedy all the way around. 
 
 

So - it was a reaffirmation of Darwin.

Or maybe the ones on the side that would NOT collapse voting against the repairs.

[Nicole44 22078]

Damn. RIP. God Bless.

Demolished. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13523]

I get that the people searching for victims were afraid of the remaining building collapsing on top of them, But did they drop the remaining building on top of the previously collapsed building? That would seem to make the job more difficult if not impossible.

I don’t mean to sound conspiracy minded but I wonder if there are some that are happy that the remaining building was brought down to hide some of the overall deficiencies in the construction or maintenance. 

[wild_turkey 3182]

I’m really curious in the legal side of this when it comes to insurance.

For the initial collapse, for owners that survived, will they get a full payout or will there be insurance exclusions on the basis of not maintaining the property? For the secondary planned demolition, same thing except that in this case it was an intentional (yet necessary) destruction of property that was at this point beyond the control of the owners.

What about possessions that were all left in the remaining units up until it’s destruction? What about vehicles which I assume were left in their parking spaces below and are now presumably collateral damage?

Also, with regards to the other unrelated Miami condo that has now been evacuated on the basis of an engineering report, I expect that to become a much more common occurrence as every building safety concern is looked at under a microscope.

[JulesVerne 32]

As someone who was literally looking at long-term rentals in Miami and the surrounding areas, like on VRBO and AirBnB, and investigating and comparing many of the condos that could easily have been the Champlain, let me tell you how this has absolutely made me rethink staying in condos in South Florida. Irrational or not, it's in my head.

[Gourmand 7774]

How do you get 136 property owners to agree to each pay, what, $110K+ to make structural repairs to a building that will likely result in many of the residents being forced to move out for an extended period of time? It's almost like those condo owners were trapped before the building ever collapsed. That seems like a near impossible agreement to reach with that many individuals involved, the cost, and the disruption. This story is just so awful and tragic.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Gourmand

[Nice Guy Eddie 13523]

16 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

How do you get 136 property owners to agree to each pay, what, $110K+ to make structural repairs to a building that will likely result in many of the residents being forced to move out for an extended period of time? It's almost like those condo owners were trapped before the building ever collapsed. That seems like a near impossible agreement to reach with that many individuals involved, the cost, and the disruption. This story is just so awful and tragic.

 

You don’t easily get 50% to agree to that. This is why we require govt regulation to enforce minimum safety measures. We all hate regulations but in this case you need the local govt to deliver an ultimatum: fix the problem or no one is allowed to live there. It effectively takes the decision out of the owners’ hands.

[Bigbend1812 12936]

1 hour ago, JulesVerne said:

As someone who was literally looking at long-term rentals in Miami and the surrounding areas, like on VRBO and AirBnB, and investigating and comparing many of the condos that could easily have been the Champlain, let me tell you how this has absolutely made me rethink staying in condos in South Florida. Irrational or not, it's in my head.

Figured with that user name you would be down for traveling through the ocean into the hollow earth. 

[MrBig 5440]

21 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I get that the people searching for victims were afraid of the remaining building collapsing on top of them, But did they drop the remaining building on top of the previously collapsed building? That would seem to make the job more difficult if not impossible.

I don’t mean to sound conspiracy minded but I wonder if there are some that are happy that the remaining building was brought down to hide some of the overall deficiencies in the construction or maintenance. 

Would not be surprised if the HOA goes full “Building 7” and say all the relevant  docs were stored there only in paper form. 

[Huckleberry 33097]

17 hours ago, Gourmand said:

How do you get 136 property owners to agree to each pay, what, $110K+ to make structural repairs to a building that will likely result in many of the residents being forced to move out for an extended period of time? It's almost like those condo owners were trapped before the building ever collapsed. That seems like a near impossible agreement to reach with that many individuals involved, the cost, and the disruption. This story is just so awful and tragic.

 

In our community the board and only the board votes on assessment increases (which we've never done), repairs, etc. But something of that magnitude would certainly be discussed in an open meeting for the whole community. Holy hell what a nightmare that would be.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

17 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

You don’t easily get 50% to agree to that. This is why we require govt regulation to enforce minimum safety measures. We all hate regulations but in this case you need the local govt to deliver an ultimatum: fix the problem or no one is allowed to live there. It effectively takes the decision out of the owners’ hands.

Believe it or not, even Houston has done that, and not that long ago. The Park Memorial condos had a strikingly similar structural defect (shaky parking garage under multiple units) and they kicked everybody out. 

[C-Man 27262]

20 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

I’m really curious in the legal side of this when it comes to insurance.

For the initial collapse, for owners that survived, will they get a full payout or will there be insurance exclusions on the basis of not maintaining the property? For the secondary planned demolition, same thing except that in this case it was an intentional (yet necessary) destruction of property that was at this point beyond the control of the owners.

What about possessions that were all left in the remaining units up until it’s destruction? What about vehicles which I assume were left in their parking spaces below and are now presumably collateral damage?

Also, with regards to the other unrelated Miami condo that has now been evacuated on the basis of an engineering report, I expect that to become a much more common occurrence as every building safety concern is looked at under a microscope.

Same. And I'm an insurance guy! Honestly, I'm curious to see how this plays out. This is not something we see in the US. My best guess is that there will be coverage for the actual condo-owners (assuming they have insurance) covering their units and belongings (including vehicles). The master policy might be SOL, though, depending on what was done and what wasn't. Wear-and-tear is never covered and construction defects has 10 years or so at most. Insurance companies will give coverage and often set certain requirements in order to stay on the policy. If it's a shady insurance carrier you can bet it's trying all kinds of ways to get out being on the hook to pay out on this. The last thing is will the implosion of the remaining structure be deemed "governmental action/authority." If so, there could be coverage afforded. Again, I'm completely talking out of my ass here since this has never once come across my radar. What a fucking nightmare.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

It's 9/11 all over again I tells ya...

[Beau Vine 54430]

nm, redundant

Edited July 6, 2021 by Beau Vine

[conVINCEd 21469]

1 hour ago, C-Man said:

Same. And I'm an insurance guy! Honestly, I'm curious to see how this plays out. This is not something we see in the US. My best guess is that there will be coverage for the actual condo-owners (assuming they have insurance) covering their units and belongings (including vehicles). The master policy might be SOL, though, depending on what was done and what wasn't. Wear-and-tear is never covered and construction defects has 10 years or so at most. Insurance companies will give coverage and often set certain requirements in order to stay on the policy. If it's a shady insurance carrier you can bet it's trying all kinds of ways to get out being on the hook to pay out on this. The last thing is will the implosion of the remaining structure be deemed "governmental action/authority." If so, there could be coverage afforded. Again, I'm completely talking out of my ass here since this has never once come across my radar. What a fucking nightmare.

IMO the master policy will be in court for years.  My guess is the more reputable personal lines carriers <insert joke here> will pay policy limits even if they legally don’t have to.  It’s good public relations.  There was only something like 140 units.  The most an individual company would be on the hook for is probably something like 30 units.  That’s a drop in the bucket compared to a large hail storm in N. Texas when errrybody in a 20 mile radius is getting a new roof.  I saw somewhere that these condos typically sell for around $800k.  Let’s just use that number as the average amount of coverage available per unit even if in reality it is probably significantly lower than that.  That’s a $24m exposure, which isn’t much in the grand scheme of things.

[C-Man 27262]

13 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

IMO the master policy will be in court for years.  My guess is the more reputable personal lines carriers <insert joke here> will pay policy limits even if they legally don’t have to.  It’s good public relations.  There was only something like 140 units.  The most an individual company would be on the hook for is probably something like 30 units.  That’s a drop in the bucket compared to a large hail storm in N. Texas when errrybody in a 20 mile radius is getting a new roof.  I saw somewhere that these condos typically sell for around $800k.  Let’s just use that number as the average amount of coverage available per unit even if in reality it is probably significantly lower than that.  That’s a $24m exposure, which isn’t much in the grand scheme of things.

It's not the property losses the carriers are worried about -- it's the liability. They can budget for property losses -- they're finite. Liability is a totally different animal. (And, yes, there are "reputable" insurance carriers. But they're not the ones bragging about being the cheapest. Chubb, AIG, Cincinnati, PURE, Nationwide Private Client, Berkley One, Vault for starters.)

At any rate, ran across this in my email a few mins ago.

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2021/07/06/621405.htm

Quote

The collapse of a condominium tower near Miami will set off years of litigation as victims and their families look to find fault among the building’s management as well as engineers, architects and others, according to legal experts.

Disaster struck in Surfside, Florida, on June 24 as a major repair project was beginning, although the cause of one of the worst residential construction failures in the United States is likely to have many contributing factors stretching back years.

“Whether it be architects, engineers or contractors that had any involvement in this building, we’ll be looking at everybody to hold each party responsible for their negligence,” said Daniel Wagner, a real estate lawyer in south Florida, who declined to say if he was representing anyone involved in the collapse.

But it will be a process complicated by finger-pointing and a trend in recent years in Florida law that has made it increasingly difficult to hold parties accountable for construction defects, lawyers said.

Liability in complex disasters often gets parceled out among defendants, with a certain percentage being apportioned to each, legal experts said.

“It’s my professional opinion that everyone is going to blame everybody else,” Wagner said.

The death toll on Monday climbed to 28, and 117 were unaccounted for.

Less than 24 hours after the collapse, the first of at least three lawsuits was filed against Champlain Towers South Condominium Association Inc, run by a volunteer board comprised of owners, for failing to ensure the building’s safety.

Bob McKee, a lawyer who brought a case on behalf of Steven Rosenthal, a resident who survived the collapse, said until another cause can be identified, the presumption is failed maintenance was to blame.

The condo association president warned residents in an April letter that the situation had “gotten significantly worse” since “major structural damage” was identified in a 2018 inspection. The president urged them to support a $15 million assessment for repairs while acknowledging the work “could have been done or planned for in years gone by.”

McKee said plaintiffs will identify other potentially liable parties through the discovery process.

One lawsuit by the family of missing resident Harold Rosenberg also named as defendants Morabito Consultants and SD Architects for failing to warn residents of the danger of collapse.

The lawsuit blamed the Morabito engineering firm, which conducted the 2018 inspection, for allegedly failing to warn the condo association of the need to evacuate the building. The firm was retained again in 2020 and did not warn residents the damage it uncovered two years earlier had not been repaired, the lawsuit said.

Morabito said in a statement that it provided its 2018 report and recommendations to the condo association.

Rene Rocha, a Morgan & Morgan attorney working on the Rosenberg case, said informing the board may not have been enough.

“They could have walked away from the job if they told the board it would be unsafe to proceed this way,” said Rocha. “Obviously, it didn’t happen that way.”

The Rosenberg lawsuit also said it planned to sue Surfside for allegedly failed to hire an independent expert to inspect the building after receiving the 2018 Morabito report.

The condo association declined to comment on the lawsuit, SD Architects could not be reached, and the town did not respond.

Legal experts said the defendants will likely argue there was no evidence that the building was not an immediate risk of collapse.

A Florida judge appointed attorney Michael Goldberg of the Akerman law firm on Friday as a receiver for the condo association, which disclosed on Thursday it had $30 million in property insurance and $18 million for liability. Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Michael Hanzman said the insurance “will obviously be inadequate to compensate everyone fully.”

Accountability Difficulty

Residents and their families may have to contend with Florida laws and court rulings that have made it more difficult to hold parties accountable for defects in professional design, construction or code compliance, according to Barry Ansbacher, a Florida attorney who specializes in condo and construction law.

For example, a 2006 law shortened to 10 years from 15 years the window for plaintiffs to sue for certain defects in design and construction and the potential personal liability for architects and engineers has also been narrowed, Ansbacher said.

Court rulings have also limited liability, including a 1985 decision that sovereign immunity protects local government building inspectors.

“Often, by the time something is discovered that was not done properly, the clock has run out and there is no liability,” Ansbacher said.

There is also the possibility of criminal charges.

Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle said she would have a grand jury examine the collapse, although she did not say whether she would consider charges. Florida grand juries can also make recommendations on matters of public policy.

One Florida prosecutor said the most likely charge if someone’s actions led to the collapse would be the crime of manslaughter by culpable negligence.

“To have a crime here you need more than what is presently being reported,” said Dave Aronberg, the state attorney for Palm Beach County. “You have to have someone who knew that destruction was imminent and did nothing about it.”

 

[conVINCEd 21469]

31 minutes ago, C-Man said:

It's not the property losses the carriers are worried about -- it's the liability. They can budget for property losses -- they're finite. Liability is a totally different animal. (And, yes, there are "reputable" insurance carriers. But they're not the ones bragging about being the cheapest. Chubb, AIG, Cincinnati, PURE, Nationwide Private Client, Berkley One, Vault for starters.)

At any rate, ran across this in my email a few mins ago.

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2021/07/06/621405.htm

 

I don’t think all insurance companies are terrible, I was just getting that out of the way for those who do.  I was really just talking about p&c carriers.  Obviously the company who wrote the GL or professional liability for anyone remotely involved in this clusterfuck is shitting kittens.

[Fudge Nuggets 19224]

On 7/5/2021 at 3:40 PM, Gourmand said:

How do you get 136 property owners to agree to each pay, what, $110K+ to make structural repairs to a building that will likely result in many of the residents being forced to move out for an extended period of time? It's almost like those condo owners were trapped before the building ever collapsed. That seems like a near impossible agreement to reach with that many individuals involved, the cost, and the disruption. This story is just so awful and tragic.

 

I bet it’s a lot easier to get buy-in now.  Well not at this particular condo since it’s destroyed, but others with alarm bell ringing assessments will likely pay up.

[C-Man 27262]

10 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

I don’t think all insurance companies are terrible, I was just getting that out of the way for those who do.  I was really just talking about p&c carriers.  Obviously the company who wrote the GL or professional liability for anyone remotely involved in this clusterfuck is shitting kittens.

Gotcha. But the carriers I mentioned are fantastic on the personal P&C side. Commercial and personal is a totally different animal, especially when it comes to the HNW market.

[Nicole44 22078]

Looks like they have recovered ten more bodies. 🥺no pockets or places to have survived at all. Not by this point I’d have expected any. Sad shit. Had hoped a few days in there would have been some survivable pockets (total wishful thinking)…but looking at the rubble that wasn’t happening. 

[conVINCEd 21469]

Just now, Nicole44 said:

Looks like they have recovered ten more bodies. 🥺no pockets or places to have survived at all. Not by this point I’d have expected any. Sad shit. Had hoped a few days in there would have been some survivable pockets (total wishful thinking)…but looking at the rubble that wasn’t happening. 

The fire is what eliminated any hope of finding survivors.

[Nicole44 22078]

Just now, conVINCEd said:

The fire is what eliminated any hope of finding survivors.

I can’t imagine what the meetings with the victims’ families are like at this point. The rescuers are doing their best to at least give them some type of closure (I hate that word) by recovering the remains. I’m not sure what I’d say to the families at this point. Ever since they got to visit the site over a week ago a lot of them have been quiet. The meetings up until that point were what you’d expect. They begged to go to the site. And I think seeing it up close made them realize it’s not simple. You can’t just run onto the rubble and start throwing concrete around and digging frantically. I think that maybe helped them come to grips with the fact that their loved ones are all dead and if they were dead initially (most sadly were) the few remaining survivors, they died after like you said the fires and such. 

[Bevo 13601]

32 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

I can’t imagine what the meetings with the victims’ families are like at this point. The rescuers are doing their best to at least give them some type of closure (I hate that word) by recovering the remains. I’m not sure what I’d say to the families at this point. Ever since they got to visit the site over a week ago a lot of them have been quiet. The meetings up until that point were what you’d expect. They begged to go to the site. And I think seeing it up close made them realize it’s not simple. You can’t just run onto the rubble and start throwing concrete around and digging frantically. I think that maybe helped them come to grips with the fact that their loved ones are all dead and if they were dead initially (most sadly were) the few remaining survivors, they died after like you said the fires and such. 

I was in Santa Fe this past week and spoke with a dentist from there who happened to have close friends in the collapsed building. Apparently as of this past Sunday they hadn't yet been found. It is kind of weird hearing things like that even though I didn't know the people - I guess it just brings it closer to home. It is a similar feeling to when I had a girlfriend who lost a close friend in the Lockerbie bombing.

[InkaUtexas 26109]

Client is going through the same thing. She has not heard anything and it just is heartbreaking. 

[Nicole44 22078]

Crew members work for 12-hour shifts, and many don’t go home at the end of the day, instead sleeping in tents to keep their focus on rescuing people, task force leader Chief Scott Dean said last week.
 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/07/us/first-responders-miami-building-collapse/index.html
 

That’s in addition to the elements they are battling…

[phdhorn 6224]

No one is alive under there by now. Not even close. Recovery mode.

[shadow_operative2.0 16028]

54 confirmed, 86 still unaccounted for. 

Fuck. 

[Hpara759 1780]

5 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

Crew members work for 12-hour shifts, and many don’t go home at the end of the day, instead sleeping in tents to keep their focus on rescuing people, task force leader Chief Scott Dean said last week.
 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/07/us/first-responders-miami-building-collapse/index.html
 

That’s in addition to the elements they are battling…

Let alone the smell

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

50 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

No one is alive under there by now. Not even close. Recovery mode.

They've all been dead a week or more.  The smell of death, and putirification has to be starting to grow.

[wild_turkey 3182]

54 confirmed, 86 still unaccounted for. 
Fuck. 

At one point I thought they were saying ~150 unaccounted for? So that would suggest ~10 people turned up elsewhere?

[shadow_operative2.0 16028]

Believe so, guess some were rather difficult to track down. 

[Ellellelle 314]

The official count is at 64. They've called off rescue efforts.

[InkaUtexas 26109]

Just got the call. They ID'd my friends niece about an hour ago. 

RIP Deborah Berezdivin 

[DDD Dad 14351]

11 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Just got the call. They ID'd my friends niece about an hour ago. 

RIP Deborah Berezdivin 

So sorry to hear. 

[tokamak 6441]

Shit. RIP Deborah and all the rest of those folks. 

[Blotto 23577]

check out how much of the debris has been cleared away....basically all of it

 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252919868.html 

[shadow_operative2.0 16028]

98 confirmed according to that ^ article. 

 

And this... 

Quote

As the remaining rubble from the collapse of a 12-story oceanfront condominium was cleared away Wednesday, a Florida judge said victims and families who suffered losses will get a minimum of $150 million in compensation initially.

That sum includes about $50 million in insurance on the Champlain Towers South building and at least $100 million in proceeds from the sale of the Surfside property where the structure once stood, Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Michael Hanzman said at a hearing.

“The court's concern has always been the victims here," the judge said, adding that the group includes visitors and renters, not just condo owners. “Their rights will be protected.”

The $150 million does not count any proceeds from the numerous lawsuits already filed since the June 24 collapse, which killed at least 97 people. Those lawsuits are being consolidated into a single class action that would cover all victims and family members if they choose, the judge said.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-150m-initially-victims-florida-165951858.html

[ROFL BOX 6649]

I know there have been lots of Shag² legal Beagles commenting prior, so I'll defer to their better info & analysis - where is this $ 150 million coming from?  Who will the class action actually be going after?

[deadshank 24653]

3 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

I know there have been lots of Shag² legal Beagles commenting prior, so I'll defer to their better info & analysis - where is this $ 150 million coming from?  Who will the class action actually be going after?

It will come from whomever has insurance.   

[Captainant 27773]

4 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

I know there have been lots of Shag² legal Beagles commenting prior, so I'll defer to their better info & analysis - where is this $ 150 million coming from?  Who will the class action actually be going after?

 

5 hours ago, shadow_operative2.0 said:

That sum includes about $50 million in insurance on the Champlain Towers South building and at least $100 million in proceeds from the sale of the Surfside property where the structure once stood, Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Michael Hanzman said at a hearing.

 

[InkaUtexas 26109]

8 hours ago, Blotto said:

check out how much of the debris has been cleared away....basically all of it

 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252919868.html 

Teams can clear pretty quickly once they are not looking for survivors. 

[South Austin 52605]

8 hours ago, Blotto said:

check out how much of the debris has been cleared away....basically all of it

 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article252919868.html 

Great lot. When’s it going on the market?

[bolverk 29720]

The last run of the simulation is especially disturbing.

 

[Telegraph_it 3359]

This condo would have come out ahead if the rest of building was not demoed. 
 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Telegraph_it

[ROFL BOX 6649]

Yeah, from the 4:00 ---> section, that was pretty brutal.

 

[Jiggy-Z 3435]

Best sequence of what we know so far:

 

[Jiggy-Z 3435]

On 6/28/2021 at 5:48 PM, Jiggy-Z said:

From the article:

The rectangular area is still standing.  However, the ellipse shaped area in in the area where the video shows the initial collapse.

Also, I just read a CNN article that had one of the tenants talking to her husband moments before or during the collapse. Where she said "there was a sinkhole that opened up where the pool was".  Clearly the pool is still there so perhaps she meant the pool deck and perhaps what she saw was the pool deck collapsing onto the lower parking areas before the main building started its fall.  I believe she was in one of the collapsed sections so no follow up yet from her.

 

Thankfully the above video seems to indicate that the tenant reporting from above did make it out.  I think.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

12 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

Best sequence of what we know so far:

 

Yes, that's pretty good. It seems like the rebar in the poorly designed flat conc. slabs being supported by the columns in the below grade parking deck, became comprised over the years by salt water penetration thru the conc. into the steel rebar causing it to expand over time, and thus lose its bond with the surrounding conc.

The ground level slab/parking deck roof pulled away, and down from the support columns as the rebar lost its last bit of Bonding to the surrounding slab. Those were attached to the exterior of the buildings center section, and support columns, which caused the support columns to overturn just enough to create cracking, and the result was the initial failure at the exterior face of the building, causing a cascading pancake effect of the surrounding structures that were linked to the center section.  

Salt water, and very bad concrete design appear to be the culprits right now.  I've yet to see anything indicating a grid of cast in place conc. lintels at the intersections of the columns, and the slab above.

[Jiggy-Z 3435]

16 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, that's pretty good. It seems like the rebar in the poorly designed flat conc. slabs being supported by the columns in the below grade parking deck, became comprised over the years by salt water penetration thru the conc. into the steel rebar causing it to expand over time, and thus lose its bond with the surrounding conc.

The ground level slab/parking deck roof pulled away, and down from the support columns as the rebar lost its last bit of Bonding to the surrounding slab. Those were attached to the exterior of the buildings center section, and support columns, which caused the support columns to overturn just enough to create cracking, and the result was the initial failure at the exterior face of the building, causing a cascading pancake effect of the surrounding structures that were linked to the center section.  

Salt water, and very bad concrete design appear to be the culprits right now.  I've yet to see anything indicating a grid of cast in place conc. lintels at the intersections of the columns, and the slab above.

There was another video that I watched which was a much more dry and rudimentary presentation that made extensive use of original drawings, photos, and video.  One of the things that that video kept harping on was real estate drone footage of the pool deck which never had a picture where there was not standing water even on sunny days.  So its position was that the initial collapse was from poor drainage design (aided by failed waterproofing) which ultimately started the pool deck corrosion (chlorinated water and water logged beams/slab).

That video also spent quite a bit of time on one particular beam in the parking garage which is seen in the the posted video.  It is described as a 12" beam intersection with a 16" column and can bee seen freeze frame at the 2:58 mark in the posted video.  The detail is correct and was noted on the original structural drawings.

In any case, and as was stated in the video, collapsed pool deck should not=catastrophic failure.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

There was another video that I watched which was a much more dry and rudimentary presentation that made extensive use of original drawings, photos, and video.  One of the things that that video kept harping on was real estate drone footage of the pool deck which never had a picture where there was not standing water even on sunny days.  So its position was that the initial collapse was from poor drainage design (aided by failed waterproofing) which ultimately started the pool deck corrosion (chlorinated water and water logged beams/slab).

That video also spent quite a bit of time on one particular beam in the parking garage which is seen in the the posted video.  It is described as a 12" beam intersection with a 16" column and can bee seen freeze frame at the 2:58 mark in the posted video.  The detail is correct and was noted on the original structural drawings.

In any case, and as was stated in the video, collapsed pool deck should not=catastrophic failure.

Very true, and its what's so weirdly familiar about major engineering failures. They often come from seemingly small details. A slab collapses because water has corroded the support steel, and because the slab was attached to a major structural column: the slab collapsing, and pulling that col. over just enough caused that col. to fail, causing a cascade effect.  If the slab support structure had been isolated from the buildings structural system, we would not be being a catastrophic failure I believe.