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Levi

Levi 2586

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I think it’s half and half with this staff and the coaching. From the players side there seems to be something missing between the ears. There’s been too many times that Pierce or Allen had to baby sit guys on the mound. A player will throw like crap, get a mound visit with an ass chewing then proceed to throw like he’s got a sack. 

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Valmy77
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Well you must have heard nothing after the end of the series because we got our best case scenario, we barely lost anybody in the draft either returning players or draftees. We are loaded. I star

chase25
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Every time this thread is started especially after a good season I always think of the somberness of the ending scene of Friday Night Lights where they are outside the stadium and coach removes their

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 45936

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I think Texas fans are so conditioned to seeing great pitching, great defense and mediocre offense that we struggle to understand mediocre pitching, great defense and great offense.  A little perspective might be nice.  OSU is a damn good team, and they edged us out in game 1.  Move on.

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ClubWhatever

ClubWhatever 12140

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On 4/30/2022 at 2:02 PM, jimmyjazz said:

I think Texas fans are so conditioned to seeing great pitching, great defense and mediocre offense that we struggle to understand mediocre pitching, great defense and great offense.  A little perspective might be nice.  OSU is a damn good team, and they edged us out in game 1.  Move on.

Mediocre pitching gets you swept. 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31465

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On 4/30/2022 at 1:02 PM, jimmyjazz said:

I think Texas fans are so conditioned to seeing great pitching, great defense and mediocre offense that we struggle to understand mediocre pitching, great defense and great offense.  A little perspective might be nice.  OSU is a damn good team, and they edged us out in game 1.  Move on.

Very true as far as it goes.

The smooth buttfuckings Saturday and Sunday tell a different tale.  And yes, a 10-run seventh is a smooth buttfucking regardless of the final score.  Mein Gott im Himmel.

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Goodman

Goodman 3273

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45 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Very true as far as it goes.

The smooth buttfuckings Saturday and Sunday tell a different tale.  And yes, a 10-run seventh is a smooth buttfucking regardless of the final score.  Mein Gott im Himmel.

Wrong. No way. Nothing excuses what took place the last 3 days. We should never be swept. This was the pre-season #1 team in the country. We've only lost our Sunday arm and replaced him with the 2nd best starting pitcher on our staff.

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Spaceman_Spiff

Spaceman_Spiff 121

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Things are rough right now - but if Pierce can regroup I think this season is very much still salvageable. For one, we absolutely are the most talented hitting team Pierce has had, and maybe Texas has had in a long time. And as much deserved hate as a our bullpen gets, it's really Pierce's deployment and management that has blown things wide open. Specifically:

1) Throwing the wrong guys: Eckhardt, Sthele, and Duplantier each have 20+ IP. Three of our worst performing arms each with an ERA of 6-8 are the "core" of our bullpen usage. Sthele has never had a good performance this season and Eckhardt and Duplantier are as likely to kill a game as they are to put in a 1-2-3 inning. I don't know what the hell Pierce is still tinkering with, but shut them all down for the season. Harrison and Nixon need to be seeing 2-3 innings (or ~40 pitches) per weekend series going forward, and Harrison should be the first response for any leverage situation. Olivarez, Morehouse, Johnson, and Southard all genuinely have shown flashes but are getting underutilized. They need to collectively be taking 6+ clean/lower-leverage innings each series. Hell, Olivarez has never had a bad outing and is at less than 15IP - what is happening? 

2) Stretching and putting relief arms in bad situations: Yesterday was emblematic of Pierce's issues this whole season. Gordon threw 6 fantastic innings yesterday - capping off the sixth by getting out of a tense bases loaded situation at 90+ pitches on the day. Pierce, rather than cashing out his winnings, throws him back into the fire for the 7th. Then when he allows two guys on and no outs Pierce decides not to put in our best, proven leverage arm in Harrison (that would make too much sense) but rather Morehouse, who just came off a lengthy outing Tuesday and has never been tested in this kind of leverage. I'm certain if he goes Morehouse to start 7, Olivarez for 8, and Nixon/Harrison for 9 we win by 5+ runs. He did this with Hansen and Southard at K-State and has repeatedly done this during the season. I get it, the BP is bad. But the answer is not to desperately try to stretch an inning out of an already overextended starting group or a reliever who put in one solid inning. Put good relievers in with clean innings and our team ERA would be a point lower. Seriously, almost all of our big innings are because Pierce stretches a pitcher too far, puts in a new arm with multiple runners on, and cues up a blow-up. Our BP ERA for first IP of the appearance with no runners is great - runners on and its abysmal. These are unproven arms nervous to get blown up, so they nibble too much when in leverage situations, but they are capable of handling their own in the right circumstances.

3) Use relievers smarter: Our pen is best when throwing 1IP at a time with a clean slate. But Pierce bounces between not using arms and then using them way too much. Nixon, every time, looks good in the first inning then falls apart in the second. Seriously, he'd probably look elite if he was just going in in the 9th a couple times every weekend. And this is for all of our arms. Nixon and Harrison should go multiple times a weekend and aim to stick to 1 inning (Harrison can stretch if critical). Everyone else should also be used 1 inning at a time, then hand it to the next guy with clean slate. Pierce has it in his head that if he can just find/force diamonds out of this group he can ride them for multiple innings like last year with Witt. Steer into the skid; you've got a rough BP, so stop screwing them over and put them in positions to succeed and they will (or at least will limit downside if they don't).

Let's take care of business against WVU and Kansas, then a strong showing in the B12 tournament could get us back in play for a regional. But be smart, and play to this team's strengths (offense, some starting pitching) and minimize its weaknesses (the BP in leverage situations). 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13033

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Posted (edited)

The Morehouse move was fucking insane yesterday. Harrison sitting right there but we go with the guy who taxed his arm 4 days ago.

Also in regard to your 3rd point, it’s like he doesn’t understand that once you’re in the bullpen, sans a dominant reliever, your best bet is always to “stream” pitchers. 1 inning MAX. It makes things much more difficult on the lineup in general. The great Augie teams were brilliant with bullpen strategy, granted they had great arms, but I remember plenty of times watching Clayton Stewart throw a 6th or 7th inning, Buck Cody throwing to a few hitters or lefty lefty spots, J Brent getting his inning and then Huston finishing. It’s like we have no concept of how to manage pitching in game, which I guess we don’t.

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Goodman

Goodman 3273

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Posted
15 minutes ago, Spaceman_Spiff said:

Things are rough right now - but if Pierce can regroup I think this season is very much still salvageable. For one, we absolutely are the most talented hitting team Pierce has had, and maybe Texas has had in a long time. And as much deserved hate as a our bullpen gets, it's really Pierce's deployment and management that has blown things wide open. Specifically:

1) Throwing the wrong guys: Eckhardt, Sthele, and Duplantier each have 20+ IP. Three of our worst performing arms each with an ERA of 6-8 are the "core" of our bullpen usage. Sthele has never had a good performance this season and Eckhardt and Duplantier are as likely to kill a game as they are to put in a 1-2-3 inning. I don't know what the hell Pierce is still tinkering with, but shut them all down for the season. Harrison and Nixon need to be seeing 2-3 innings (or ~40 pitches) per weekend series going forward, and Harrison should be the first response for any leverage situation. Olivarez, Morehouse, Johnson, and Southard all genuinely have shown flashes but are getting underutilized. They need to collectively be taking 6+ clean/lower-leverage innings each series. Hell, Olivarez has never had a bad outing and is at less than 15IP - what is happening? 

2) Stretching and putting relief arms in bad situations: Yesterday was emblematic of Pierce's issues this whole season. Gordon threw 6 fantastic innings yesterday - capping off the sixth by getting out of a tense bases loaded situation at 90+ pitches on the day. Pierce, rather than cashing out his winnings, throws him back into the fire for the 7th. Then when he allows two guys on and no outs Pierce decides not to put in our best, proven leverage arm in Harrison (that would make too much sense) but rather Morehouse, who just came off a lengthy outing Tuesday and has never been tested in this kind of leverage. I'm certain if he goes Morehouse to start 7, Olivarez for 8, and Nixon/Harrison for 9 we win by 5+ runs. He did this with Hansen and Southard at K-State and has repeatedly done this during the season. I get it, the BP is bad. But the answer is not to desperately try to stretch an inning out of an already overextended starting group or a reliever who put in one solid inning. Put good relievers in with clean innings and our team ERA would be a point lower. Seriously, almost all of our big innings are because Pierce stretches a pitcher too far, puts in a new arm with multiple runners on, and cues up a blow-up. Our BP ERA for first IP of the appearance with no runners is great - runners on and its abysmal. These are unproven arms nervous to get blown up, so they nibble too much when in leverage situations, but they are capable of handling their own in the right circumstances.

3) Use relievers smarter: Our pen is best when throwing 1IP at a time with a clean slate. But Pierce bounces between not using arms and then using them way too much. Nixon, every time, looks good in the first inning then falls apart in the second. Seriously, he'd probably look elite if he was just going in in the 9th a couple times every weekend. And this is for all of our arms. Nixon and Harrison should go multiple times a weekend and aim to stick to 1 inning (Harrison can stretch if critical). Everyone else should also be used 1 inning at a time, then hand it to the next guy with clean slate. Pierce has it in his head that if he can just find/force diamonds out of this group he can ride them for multiple innings like last year with Witt. Steer into the skid; you've got a rough BP, so stop screwing them over and put them in positions to succeed and they will (or at least will limit downside if they don't).

Let's take care of business against WVU and Kansas, then a strong showing in the B12 tournament could get us back in play for a regional. But be smart, and play to this team's strengths (offense, some starting pitching) and minimize its weaknesses (the BP in leverage situations). 

The problem is that pitching staff mismanagement is a Pierce feature, not a bug. That along with poor base running & below average 3rd base coaching.

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

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Posted (edited)

Many forgot that when Pierce axed Phil Haig after 2019 and reshuffled the staff, he said he himself would heavily involved in the pitching side. Allen is the pitching coach in title and does some stuff, but Pierce is very involved in that side. Kinda like an offensive minded head coach in football bringing in an OC but still being pretty heavily involved in play calling.

Allen got his reputation by being a damn good recruiter and he's done a good job of that at Texas. Along with Pierce, he has done a good job of developing a handful of guys on the pitching side who have come through over the past few years. 

Allen and Pierce are tied at the hip. Allen isn't going anywhere that isn't a head coaching job. I don't think they have done themselves any favors with some of the decisions they made this year, but they also have been dealt some shit luck. No one could have predicted or seen the Witt injury or Nixon just completely flopping. They have tried to build his confidence up in low-pressure and high-pressure situations and it just isn't working. Guys like Sthele and Harrison who were nails at the beginning of the year have just hit a wall. Maybe that's on the coaches, maybe it's on the players. Who knows.

Bottom line is I think it's more likely that if this season ends up being a limp to the finish line, they respond by attacking the juco and portal market heavily (something they haven't done a ton of of in recent years outside of someone like Melendez). One thing Pierce has been good at historically is finding stopgaps for roster holes. He brought in Mason Hibbeler, Duke Ellis, DJ Petrinsky and Matteo Bocchi from the juco ranks before the 2018 Omaha season.

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

Posted
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Spaceman_Spiff said:

1) Throwing the wrong guys: Eckhardt, Sthele, and Duplantier each have 20+ IP. Three of our worst performing arms each with an ERA of 6-8 are the "core" of our bullpen usage. Sthele has never had a good performance this season and Eckhardt and Duplantier are as likely to kill a game as they are to put in a 1-2-3 inning. I don't know what the hell Pierce is still tinkering with, but shut them all down for the season. Harrison and Nixon need to be seeing 2-3 innings (or ~40 pitches) per weekend series going forward, and Harrison should be the first response for any leverage situation. Olivarez, Morehouse, Johnson, and Southard all genuinely have shown flashes but are getting underutilized. They need to collectively be taking 6+ clean/lower-leverage innings each series. Hell, Olivarez has never had a bad outing and is at less than 15IP - what is happening? 

Sthele had several really good performances early in the year that gave everyone hope that he would be a solid arm in the backend. Not sure if he hit a wall or what but he hasn't been anywhere close to the same guy over the last month. Same with Eckhardt to an extent after he had a couple of solid outings early in the season.

Also, I'm not sure how you can say a guy like Southard is being underutilized. If anything they have too much trust in him and continue to throw him out there despite the rocky performances. It's one step forward and two steps back with him. He is by far the most frustrating pitcher on this staff and he is the poster-child for why this staff is so frustrating. 

Edited by Hookem2147
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13033

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Posted (edited)

@Hookem2147 who would you credit this staff with developing pitching wise? I’m just struggling thinking of anyone that has improved as a pitcher under Allen/Pierce. On the other side we seem to have several each year under them that fall off a cliff from the previous season or early season performance. Obviously conference play is tougher but we shouldn’t see guys go from being good relievers to completely unpitchable.

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

Posted
Posted
Just now, hobbes2702 said:

@Hookem2147 who would you credit this staff with developing pitching wise? I’m just struggling with thinking of anyone that has improved as a pitcher under Allen/Pierce

Elder, Gordon, Quintanilla, Stevens (last year took a huge jump) are a few I can think of off the top of my head. It's hard for me to get upset about their pitching development/usage when they took the team to Omaha in 2018 with a primary bullpen of *checks notes* Andy McGuire, Josh Sawyer and Parker Joe Robinson.

I guess you could argue if Madden and Hansen (and Witt) were "developed" at Texas but they got better every year they were here.

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ztejas

ztejas 43425

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Posted
33 minutes ago, Spaceman_Spiff said:

Things are rough right now - but if Pierce can regroup I think this season is very much still salvageable. For one, we absolutely are the most talented hitting team Pierce has had, and maybe Texas has had in a long time. And as much deserved hate as a our bullpen gets, it's really Pierce's deployment and management that has blown things wide open. Specifically:

1) Throwing the wrong guys: Eckhardt, Sthele, and Duplantier each have 20+ IP. Three of our worst performing arms each with an ERA of 6-8 are the "core" of our bullpen usage. Sthele has never had a good performance this season and Eckhardt and Duplantier are as likely to kill a game as they are to put in a 1-2-3 inning. I don't know what the hell Pierce is still tinkering with, but shut them all down for the season. Harrison and Nixon need to be seeing 2-3 innings (or ~40 pitches) per weekend series going forward, and Harrison should be the first response for any leverage situation. Olivarez, Morehouse, Johnson, and Southard all genuinely have shown flashes but are getting underutilized. They need to collectively be taking 6+ clean/lower-leverage innings each series. Hell, Olivarez has never had a bad outing and is at less than 15IP - what is happening? 

2) Stretching and putting relief arms in bad situations: Yesterday was emblematic of Pierce's issues this whole season. Gordon threw 6 fantastic innings yesterday - capping off the sixth by getting out of a tense bases loaded situation at 90+ pitches on the day. Pierce, rather than cashing out his winnings, throws him back into the fire for the 7th. Then when he allows two guys on and no outs Pierce decides not to put in our best, proven leverage arm in Harrison (that would make too much sense) but rather Morehouse, who just came off a lengthy outing Tuesday and has never been tested in this kind of leverage. I'm certain if he goes Morehouse to start 7, Olivarez for 8, and Nixon/Harrison for 9 we win by 5+ runs. He did this with Hansen and Southard at K-State and has repeatedly done this during the season. I get it, the BP is bad. But the answer is not to desperately try to stretch an inning out of an already overextended starting group or a reliever who put in one solid inning. Put good relievers in with clean innings and our team ERA would be a point lower. Seriously, almost all of our big innings are because Pierce stretches a pitcher too far, puts in a new arm with multiple runners on, and cues up a blow-up. Our BP ERA for first IP of the appearance with no runners is great - runners on and its abysmal. These are unproven arms nervous to get blown up, so they nibble too much when in leverage situations, but they are capable of handling their own in the right circumstances.

3) Use relievers smarter: Our pen is best when throwing 1IP at a time with a clean slate. But Pierce bounces between not using arms and then using them way too much. Nixon, every time, looks good in the first inning then falls apart in the second. Seriously, he'd probably look elite if he was just going in in the 9th a couple times every weekend. And this is for all of our arms. Nixon and Harrison should go multiple times a weekend and aim to stick to 1 inning (Harrison can stretch if critical). Everyone else should also be used 1 inning at a time, then hand it to the next guy with clean slate. Pierce has it in his head that if he can just find/force diamonds out of this group he can ride them for multiple innings like last year with Witt. Steer into the skid; you've got a rough BP, so stop screwing them over and put them in positions to succeed and they will (or at least will limit downside if they don't).

Let's take care of business against WVU and Kansas, then a strong showing in the B12 tournament could get us back in play for a regional. But be smart, and play to this team's strengths (offense, some starting pitching) and minimize its weaknesses (the BP in leverage situations). 

A+++ post. Post more. Agree that we have the tools - we just have to utilize them correctly and get a little lucky. I posted during the Saturday game that sometimes our staff is good, sometimes it really sucks. If we can string the "sometimes good" shit together we could make a run. 

Honestly - I love bitching about Texas athletics as much as the rest of you - but Texas baseball having a disappointing year is like UNC basketball having an off year. They may look like shit most of the season but sometimes it just comes together and they contend for a national title. 

Let's see what happens. I think this team has an embarrassingly low floor but also a kind of kick ass ceiling. Let's hope it's the latter come postseason. 

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

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Posted

I will say that postseason play might be friendlier for this team because we are more likely to stretch out the few reliable arms we do have, throw guys on back to back days, throw starters on 3 days rest, etc.

You won't see guys like Justin Eckhardt pitching in a regional. 

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ztejas

ztejas 43425

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Posted
17 minutes ago, Hookem2147 said:

I don't think they have done themselves any favors with some of the decisions they made this year, but they also have been dealt some shit luck. No one could have predicted or seen the Witt injury or Nixon just completely flopping. They have tried to build his confidence up in low-pressure and high-pressure situations and it just isn't working. Guys like Sthele and Harrison who were nails at the beginning of the year have just hit a wall. Maybe that's on the coaches, maybe it's on the players. Who knows.

Disagree. You should predict that an injury will happen to one of your guys and be prepared to answer it. Yeah it sucks that the best arm on the team got injured but for me that isn't an excuse for the staff to go to shit. 

That said - obviously - I'm as optimistic as anyone - but we shouldn't be fucking 9-9 in conference with this lineup. I don't care if Clemens or Maddux got injured for the season - we should be better than the shit we're rolling out. 

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, shadow_operative2.0 said:

2147 also thinks Witt will be our Friday starter in conference play next season. That won’t happen, but he believes! 

Yes, I do believe that 12 months removed from Tommy John, Tanner Witt will be pitching at Texas. That isn't some sort of bold prediction. Just like the vast majority of players around the country who have Tommy John and don't have any setbacks are on the mound in games 12 months later. 

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Disagree. You should predict that an injury will happen to one of your guys and be prepared to answer it.

I just can't really agree here. We haven't lost a pitcher of that caliber to an extended injury in years. How are we supposed to 'prepare' for a hypothetical injury? Tells guys before the season in scrimmages to have the mindset of pitching in a high leverage situation because so and so is hurt?

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ztejas

ztejas 43425

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Hookem2147 said:

Yes, I do believe that 12 months removed from Tommy John, Tanner Witt will be pitching at Texas. That isn't some sort of bold prediction. Just like the vast majority of players around the country who have Tommy John and don't have any setbacks are on the mound in games 12 months later. 

 

Just now, Hookem2147 said:

I just can't really agree here. We haven't lost a pitcher to an extended injury in years. How are we supposed to 'prepare' for a hypothetical injury? Tells guys before the season in scrimmages to have the mindset of pitching in a high leverage situation because so and so is hurt?

Do you actually think Witt is pitching here next year? I mean give me a baseline before I respond to your 2nd post. If I'm Witt I'm rehabbing, throwing for scouts, cashing a huge check and trying to hit the show in a few years. 

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, ztejas said:

 

Do you actually think Witt is pitching here next year? I mean give me a baseline before I respond to your 2nd post. If I'm Witt I'm rehabbing, throwing for scouts, cashing a huge check and trying to hit the show in a few years. 

Yes, I would 100% put money on it that he pitches for Texas next year and is starting games. He can sit out if he wants, but he isn't going top 5 rounds if he does that. He has 68 career innings under his belt and only 11 as a starter. MLB teams who invest millions of dollars aren't going to be jumping up and down to take a gamble on that. If he comes back and shows he is healthy and anywhere close to his old form, he is a top 5 round pick easily.

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, shadow_operative2.0 said:

Alright, he has finally backed off. He will at best be getting some pen innings, as most of us said. He will 1000% not be a weekend starter in conference play. 

This you?

On 4/10/2022 at 3:53 PM, shadow_operative2.0 said:

Highly, highly doubtful Witt throws an inning next year. Typically an 18-month injury. 

 

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shadow_operative2.0

shadow_operative2.0 15980

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Posted

This you?

On 4/10/2022 at 3:50 PM, Hookem2147 said:

More of a 2023 comment, but it’s been impressive to see the jump Gordon has made from last year to this year and even the growth we’ve seen between each start.

Him and Witt at the top of the rotation is going to be a lot of fun next year.

Fucking zero chance. None. 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13033

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Posted

I tend to think Witt’s Texas career is over but I wouldn’t say it’s impossible. I think the timing of the injury is the more worrisome part. He would really need to be on the fast end of recovery if we are talking being game ready. 12 months is enough time to recover but usually you need a bit more than that to gear up. Injury happened in Feb/March (can’t remember the date) so that’s a pretty tough time crunch especially for a guy that was an elite recruit with elite stuff who’s probably going to add a few MPHs post TJ surgery.

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Hookem2147

Hookem2147 21245

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, shadow_operative2.0 said:

This you?

Fucking zero chance. None. 

So to recap: You said it is a 18 month recovery from Tommy John and his Texas career is over. A month later he is apparently going to beat your 18 month timeline and you say he "may throw a few innings out of the bullpen" but he has "zero fucking chance. none" of starting games.

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ztejas

ztejas 43425

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Posted

If I'm Witt I never throw another pitch at Texas and I love the guy and hope he tears it up at the next level. 

Then again - he has that batshit crazy mom behind him so maybe he outdoes the timeline and comes back early and throws some innings late next season. 

I think that's a fucking pipe dream, though. Dude has legit next level talent. Not sure why he'd risk a dozen years of six figure checks for a bullshit chance at a CWS title. 

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BillyGoatHill

BillyGoatHill 4312

Posted
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, ztejas said:

 

Do you actually think Witt is pitching here next year? I mean give me a baseline before I respond to your 2nd post. If I'm Witt I'm rehabbing, throwing for scouts, cashing a huge check and trying to hit the show in a few years. 

I said and posted exactly this ^ to him over a month ago and got the same response....you just gotta let it go. 

Frustrated Head GIF

Edited by BillyGoatHill
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