Fat People

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Then explain it to me like I'm five.  I said that earlier.  Expose me as a complete moron,
He's smart enough to know the second level of questioning.   
It's the diet.

That was directed at him. Seems he needs to take his own advice as it is obvious y’all aren’t gonna get on the same page.

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

2 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

That was directed at him. Seems he needs to take his own advice as it is obvious y’all aren’t gonna get on the same page.

Thanks  I didn't realize that.

I'm asking honest questions here and trying to get honest answers.  I'm asking him direct questions and he's giving me vague answers.  

At one point he was saying my examples of weight loss were "anecdotal" but never mentioned that they were real world stories.  I'd like to think that if they were one offs, then the medical community would contact me and ask for details for the scientific method and shit.

I guess not, though.

[Neonmoon 38129]

23 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I was going to stay off this thread, but in general I respect your posting over the years and I think you mean well on this thread despite your tone in these more recent posts. You clearly don’t know shit about fuck wrt human physiology in general, much less the specific pathophyisology and neuroendocrine pathways in play when going from ideal body weight to overweight, to obese, and then to morbidly obese, and your personal experience and anecdotal knowledge of “literally dozens” of people who are outliers is no basis for drawing any conclusions about Wulaw’s situation. 
 

I linked a really good article about some of  the pathways involved. Either you didn’t bother reading it or you didn’t understand it. I don’t have the patience to give you a primer, but you are wrong about most of what Wulaw’s problems are, and the way  you present the parts you are right about is not helpful, and in fact is counterproductive. IDGAF if you are an asshole. Most of us here are. I do wonder what you are hoping to accomplish with these posts. 
 

While there is plenty of psychological overlay in becoming obese, there are mechanisms at play at the cellular and even molecular level that contribute to causing maintaining and exacerbating obesity, and they have nothing to do with willpower or food addiction or stress eating. Exercise most definitely does have positive effects  

 

I suggest you go read about adipocytes, metabolic syndrome, glucagon-insulin homeostasis, leptin and leptin resistance, leptin agonists, leptin mechanism of action in the hypothalamus/brainstem vs gut mechanoreceptors and their respective effects on satiety, and white adipose tissue and its effects on leptin production. If you had to google any of these terms you should STFU on this thread other than to offer encouragement 

 

21 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Yes, all of that is and it makes it harder for some people to lose weight than others but it doesn't make it impossible.  Sure, there are the 2% cases but that's not what we're talking about.  I spent this morning in a run group on a hurt foot and in that group are at least 25 people who have impressive weight loss stories and kept the weight off and yes, it's fucking hard.  To say it's impossible is insulting to the people who have done it.

Like I said, these are all conditions and it's the patients job to manage conditions.  Being an alcoholic is no different.  They have a medical condition that makes them predisposed to being an alcoholic.  No one would suggest an alcoholic keep moderately drinking.  They need to change their lifestyle.  Same with the obese.

My encouragement is to say quit making excuses and just do it and I'd say that to anybody.  The whole excuse making and saying it's impossible encourages people to not even try.

 

21 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

You clearly read nothing I posted.  I am not talking about the 2%. It is incredibly difficult to get to healthy weight from morbid obesity and stay there. I am talking about the vast majority of morbidly obese people. Like Wulaw. You know,  the people for whom physicians and surgeons - people who actually have done more than consult google and their personal experience to learn about this stuff - are recommending medication and even surgical treatments.

 

Molecular biology and pharmacokinetics are not excuses. You should stop posting in this thread 

 

21 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I've read everything you've posted and you're right on all counts.  I define obese as over 300 pounds.  (Height and gender may vary.)  While you're saying it's incredibly difficult, I know dozens of people who have done it so it's possible so to write it all off to biology discounts their work and achievement?

Serious question.  I don't know your area of practice but would you ever prescribe an exercise regimen to a patient?  I know a neurologist and he does that.  He also bitches out patients for being fat.  

Exercise is the key to the whole equation but what's the fun in that?

 

 

20 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I’m an orthopedist. I prescribe exercises to every single patient. I recommend specific diet adjustments if they are overweight. If they are morbidly obese and have tried and failed to lose weight and they need surgery I refer them for evaluation for bariatric surgery. If Mounjara gets an FDA approval for weight loss I will prescribe it. You don’t know what you are talking about 
 

Exercise is not a panacea. You can balance your quad and hamstring strength perfectly and if you have an ACL Deficient knee and a pivot shift, your only option is surgery. If you have a large disc herniation and a foot drop, strengthening your core is not going to help you. If you are a 60 yo woman and had a total hysterectomy and removal of both ovaries in your 30s and never got HRT doing squats and bench presses at the gym and taking calcium and vitamin D  is not going to cure your osteoporosis. You need medication. If you are type 1 diabetic you cannot control your blood sugar with diet and exercise.

You know dozens of people who successfully lost weight and maintain weight loss. Yet studies and surveys and population data make it clear those people are outliers. 
 

 

 

20 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Did you read anything I posted? JFC

 

13 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Why are you focusing on genetics out of everything I have written? 

 

13 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Then educate me.  Why are people in certain regions in America more prone to obesity than others?  If it's beyond their control, why are they different?  Also, why have obesity rates spiked in recent years?  What has changed in the brain or gut in that short amount of time and why didn't it effect people around the country equally?

Serious question.

 

11 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

As a physician, shouldn't you want to know the root cause of a condition in order to prevent it?  Also, if addressing the root cause can also cure the symptoms and prevent surgery, isn't that a good thing for the patient?

 

9 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

OK, I've respected your knowledge but at this point you need to respect mine.  To say weight loss efforts  by socio economic class are irrelevant except for access to health care is, quite frankly, ignorant.  I don't mean that as an insult.  I just know what people eat and why they eat it.  I more than respect your life's work so respect mine and, by the way, you're wrong.  You can ask me any question like I've asked you and I'll answer them with no judgement.  However, you are completely in the dark if you think think that emotions have nothing do with food.  

I've learned things by your postings because you're an expert in your field.  I'm an expert in cheap food for Americans.  You should learn something from me if you're going to diagnose fatness in American patients.  

 

8 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Then explain it to me like I'm five.  I said that earlier.  Expose me as a complete moron,

He's smart enough to know the second level of questioning.   

It's the diet.

I will

Either you can’t fucking read or won’t accept information that refutes your own experience 

He literally says he prescribes exercise and diet adjustments to every patient. In your own personal experience, you have met people that have beat the odds and dieted and exercised their way out of obesity, he states those are outliers in the medical data. He never said it was impossible. But again, you ignore anything that doesn’t agree with your personal experience. 

You keep comparing it to alcoholism which is asinine. Humans will die without food. Go ask people in the alcoholics thread what would happen if they HAD to drink every day or they would die. But they could only have 3 drinks. And you going in there and telling people that you know a handful of people that manage to cut back boozing to 3 drinks and they can too with some tough love. 

 

 

 

 

[tigol 2395]

6 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will

Either you can’t fucking read or won’t accept information that refutes your own experience 

He literally says he prescribes exercise and diet adjustments to every patient. In your own personal experience, you have met people that have beat the odds and dieted and exercised their way out of obesity, he states those are outliers in the medical data. He never said it was impossible. But again, you ignore anything that doesn’t agree with your personal experience. 

You keep comparing it to alcoholism which is asinine. Humans will die without food. Go ask people in the alcoholics thread what would happen if they HAD to drink every day or they would die. But they could only have 3 drinks. And you going in there and telling people that you know a handful of people that manage to cut back boozing to 3 drinks and they can too with some tough love. 

 

 

 

 

This is going to require some nuanced thinking on his part.  

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will

Either you can’t fucking read or won’t accept information that refutes your own experience 

He literally says he prescribes exercise and diet adjustments to every patient. In your own personal experience, you have met people that have beat the odds and dieted and exercised their way out of obesity, he states those are outliers in the medical data. He never said it was impossible. But again, you ignore anything that doesn’t agree with your personal experience. 

You keep comparing it to alcoholism which is asinine. Humans will die without food. Go ask people in the alcoholics thread what would happen if they HAD to drink every day or they would die. But they could only have 3 drinks. And you going in there and telling people that you know a handful of people that manage to cut back boozing to 3 drinks and they can too with some tough love. 

 

 

 

 

I never said he said it was impossible.  I've said that before.  Wulaw said that and he's wrong.

What I'm asking is what is causing the underlying conditions that make people predisposed to obesity?  Obesity has steadily increased the past decade and it's more prevalent in certain parts of the country.  What is driving that?

Addiction to food and addiction to drugs and alcohol have a lot of parallels.  Sorry but that's true.

[Sawbonz 27547]

8 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Thanks  I didn't realize that.

I'm asking honest questions here and trying to get honest answers.  I'm asking him direct questions and he's giving me vague answers.  

At one point he was saying my examples of weight loss were "anecdotal" but never mentioned that they were real world stories.  I'd like to think that if they were one offs, then the medical community would contact me and ask for details for the scientific method and shit.

I guess not, though.

I’ve kept engaging because I do believe you are asking honest questions. I did not get that feeling from the poster that Swayze was interacting with.

Also I think some of what I post may be helpful to others on the thread, even if I don’t change your mind about the primary barriers to successful weight loss.

When we use “anecdotal” in medicine and science we mean individual or small numbers of events that aren’t reproducible and or can’t be extrapolated to predict events in a population at large. That’s why I say they are not helpful here.  

I don’t feel I have given you vague answers. I have explained that the mechanism to maintain an obese state or return to an obese state is a neuroendocrine issue. That is not debatable and it has little to do with emotional state and nothing to do with geographic location or socioeconomic status. I have linked a very good article on the basic science of it and given you several terms you can search to educate yourself.
 

The hunger drive lives in the brain stem and hypothalamus, ancient parts of the brain. Emotions live in much younger parts of the brain. Adipose tissue acts directly on the hindbrain and hypothalamus. Fat people feel hungry even when they have consumed sufficient calories in large part (maybe primarily) because of the endocrines, paracrines, and cytokines produced by adipocytes. 

Their bodies think they are in a fasted state when they are in a state of caloric excess. Genetics does likely play a role here but it happens in everyone to a greater or lesser extent.  

Do emotions, anxiety, depression, etc play a role? Yes but what the science is showing is they are secondary. Calling someone an emotional eater, or telling them they eat shitty food (even if they do), or that they lack willpower is not helpful.

Can this hunger sensation be overcome? Of course, but if it were easy, you and the people you know would be the rule and not the exception.

Think of the body’s satiety mechanism as the thermostat on your oven. If the screen says 350 but the oven temp ranges from 400-450 at that setting you are going to burn all your food. You can put an oven thermometer in there and adjust by trial and error until it says 350 every time you use it, or you can recalibrate the thermostat or get a new one. Calorie counting / keeping track of calories burned is using the oven thermometer. The new meds being studied recalibrate satiety to match caloric needs. Bariatric surgery gives you a new thermostat, at least temporarily. 
 

Given that most studies agree that sustainable weight loss with only calorie counting and exercise requires losing only 1-2 lbs per week, if you needed to lose 100+ pounds would you be likely to stick with it? Studies show most people can’t.
 

Finally, and where I agree with you, is we have this great big cerebral cortex, and we can train it to overcome those midbrain and reptilian brain drives. You were able to do it without other modalities and that’s truly a great thing.

Teaching people how to do that, especially with cognitive behavioral therapy methods and treating any comorbidities like depression and anxiety, works great at prevention, is vital to use during weight loss and critical for maintenance, but it is much more difficult to achieve meaningful success in large groups of obese patients using those methods as the sole or primary treatment. Study after study show this to be true

Exercise is a given. I know of no physician or counselor involved in weight loss treatment who does not stress exercise. 

Learning proper nutrition is key as well but again if you are already morbidly obese studies show that alone is unlikely to yield success

TLDR weight loss is difficult. The basic drive of hunger lives in the oldest parts of the brain, and adipose tissue has a direct line of communication to it. 

[Sawbonz 27547]

4 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Addiction to food and addiction to drugs and alcohol have a lot of parallels.  Sorry but that's true.

I think I see the disconnect. The way we get fat and the way we get addicted to substances have many parallels. The reasons we stay fat and the reasons we relapse are becoming elucidated as I have explained. I don’t know much about  treatment of substance dependence

[Neonmoon 38129]

7 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I never said he said it was impossible.  I've said that before.  Wulaw said that and he's wrong.

What I'm asking is what is causing the underlying conditions that make people predisposed to obesity?  Obesity has steadily increased the past decade and it's more prevalent in certain parts of the country.  What is driving that?

Addiction to food and addiction to drugs and alcohol have a lot of parallels.  Sorry but that's true.

Yes, there are parallels, but you’re ignoring the one big fucking difference that makes those parallels pointless. Sorry but that’s true. 

 

[Gatorubet 30217]

13 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Then explain it to me like I'm five.  I said that earlier.  Expose me as a complete moron,

He's smart enough to know the second level of questioning.   

It's the diet.

 

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Yes, there are parallels, but you’re ignoring the one big fucking difference that makes those parallels pointless. Sorry but that’s true. 

 

It’s so easy in some ways to quit smoking/ and I did it for a decade- just don’t go in the gas station and buy a pack. You don’t need it. Same with drinking- just don’t buy it- you don’t need it to survive. Both of those things have been equated to heroin or crack and are as difficult to quit as each of them, yet they are EASIER to quit than requiring your entire eating system for a morbidly obese person, because as you’ve pointed out that person HAS to eat. 

But, apparently not only should you be shamed and ridiculed and treated as a sub human for being obese but if you can manage to get out of that morbid obesity through surgery or drugs (something that takes it from a long shot 1 in 20 proposition to a manageable 1/2 proposition, you’ve cheated and proven yourself to be a weak willed pussy. Yes, there is only one dickhead on here right now managing to argue with people that actually know the science but in real life it’s probably 50/50. Many (probably up to half) have outright scorn when you tell them you’ve had this surgery. You can see it in their eyes or how they interact. It’s pretty awesome. Whatever. 

That’s why I started the thread, and am so honest in talking about all my shortcomings and the feelings associated with failure throughout the years,  so hopefully others might benefit from it. 

[gmr548 16576]

18 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

So, it's the biochemical pathways?  My mistake.  Sorry about that.  (Really.)  How and why have those changed for certain parts of America and not others and why did they change so much over the past few years?  Explain it to me like I'm five.  Something has changed in America (see below) and it's been region specific (see below).

And no, you never said they were impossible to overcome.  Wulaw did.  That's when I stepped it.  He clearly doesn't understand diet, health, and fitness and I don't mean that as an insult, believe it or not.  He was here lecturing everyone and had zero humility.  Recovering alcoholics would never tolerate that mindset from someone who needs recovery.  He was wanting to be on par with alcoholics and I treated him like that.  

Someone should ask whim "why do you eat so much?"  Someone once asked me that about booze and I embarrassingly didn't have an answer.  Whatever that reason is is a far bigger driver than his biochemical pathways.    These people can't have it both ways.  They can't want to be medically on par with alcoholics but get mad when we treat them like that when they won't even take the first step.

 

 

18 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I would LOVE to see an overlay of education rankings by state on that map 

It just weighs more.TM

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

6 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I’ve kept engaging because I do believe you are asking honest questions. I did not get that feeling from the poster that Swayze was interacting with.

Also I think some of what I post may be helpful to others on the thread, even if I don’t change your mind about the primary barriers to successful weight loss.

When we use “anecdotal” in medicine and science we mean individual or small numbers of events that aren’t reproducible and or can’t be extrapolated to predict events in a population at large. That’s why I say they are not helpful here.  

I don’t feel I have given you vague answers. I have explained that the mechanism to maintain an obese state or return to an obese state is a neuroendocrine issue. That is not debatable and it has little to do with emotional state and nothing to do with geographic location or socioeconomic status. I have linked a very good article on the basic science of it and given you several terms you can search to educate yourself.
 

The hunger drive lives in the brain stem and hypothalamus, ancient parts of the brain. Emotions live in much younger parts of the brain. Adipose tissue acts directly on the hindbrain and hypothalamus. Fat people feel hungry even when they have consumed sufficient calories in large part (maybe primarily) because of the endocrines, paracrines, and cytokines produced by adipocytes. 

Their bodies think they are in a fasted state when they are in a state of caloric excess. Genetics does likely play a role here but it happens in everyone to a greater or lesser extent.  

Do emotions, anxiety, depression, etc play a role? Yes but what the science is showing is they are secondary. Calling someone an emotional eater, or telling them they eat shitty food (even if they do), or that they lack willpower is not helpful.

Can this hunger sensation be overcome? Of course, but if it were easy, you and the people you know would be the rule and not the exception.

Think of the body’s satiety mechanism as the thermostat on your oven. If the screen says 350 but the oven temp ranges from 400-450 at that setting you are going to burn all your food. You can put an oven thermometer in there and adjust by trial and error until it says 350 every time you use it, or you can recalibrate the thermostat or get a new one. Calorie counting / keeping track of calories burned is using the oven thermometer. The new meds being studied recalibrate satiety to match caloric needs. Bariatric surgery gives you a new thermostat, at least temporarily. 
 

Given that most studies agree that sustainable weight loss with only calorie counting and exercise requires losing only 1-2 lbs per week, if you needed to lose 100+ pounds would you be likely to stick with it? Studies show most people can’t.
 

Finally, and where I agree with you, is we have this great big cerebral cortex, and we can train it to overcome those midbrain and reptilian brain drives. You were able to do it without other modalities and that’s truly a great thing.

Teaching people how to do that, especially with cognitive behavioral therapy methods and treating any comorbidities like depression and anxiety, works great at prevention, is vital to use during weight loss and critical for maintenance, but it is much more difficult to achieve meaningful success in large groups of obese patients using those methods as the sole or primary treatment. Study after study show this to be true

Exercise is a given. I know of no physician or counselor involved in weight loss treatment who does not stress exercise. 

Learning proper nutrition is key as well but again if you are already morbidly obese studies show that alone is unlikely to yield success

TLDR weight loss is difficult. The basic drive of hunger lives in the oldest parts of the brain, and adipose tissue has a direct line of communication to it. 

With all due respect, I disagree with on the statement that it has little to do with geographic location.  The data is clear that some cities and states are simply fatter than others and it's because of a variety of factors, most notable diet.  I find it believable that years of bad diet can rewire a person's brain much to the degree than alcohol can.  Long term bad diet on a large scale explains the rise in obesity nationwide and the increase in recent years and particularly in the United States.

Either way, though, diet is the key here and these pills and surgeries are simply diet management tools.  What's the long term solution with Ozympic?  Should someone be on it literally the rest of their lives?  Data seems to indicate that the weight immediately comes back on once you stop.  That's not a long term solution.

When I say "diet," I'm referring to both what people are eating and how much of if they are eating.

 

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

6 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Yes, there are parallels, but you’re ignoring the one big fucking difference that makes those parallels pointless. Sorry but that’s true. 

 

OK, fine.  I guess they aren't like alcoholics now.  Let's move the goalposts.  Never mind that after a tough day, the fat person may stress eat a bowl of ice cream for the same reason an alcoholic needs to down a bottle of bourbon.

Let's go with sex then.  Like food, we need it to survive and you can be a sex addict.  We have emotional connections to both sex and food and you can have an unhealthy relationship with both.  No one would shrug their shoulders about someone who has sex with 3 street walkers per week and say it's out of their control.  That would be ridiculous.  

But yes, the emotional relationships between us and food, alcohol, and sex have a lot of parallels.  Why does someone overeat?  Why does someone drink?  Why does someone have destructive sex?  There is no set answer because everyone is different.  

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s so easy in some ways to quit smoking/ and I did it for a decade- just don’t go in the gas station and buy a pack. You don’t need it. Same with drinking- just don’t buy it- you don’t need it to survive. Both of those things have been equated to heroin or crack and are as difficult to quit as each of them, yet they are EASIER to quit than requiring your entire eating system for a morbidly obese person, because as you’ve pointed out that person HAS to eat. 

But, apparently not only should you be shamed and ridiculed and treated as a sub human for being obese but if you can manage to get out of that morbid obesity through surgery or drugs (something that takes it from a long shot 1 in 20 proposition to a manageable 1/2 proposition, you’ve cheated and proven yourself to be a weak willed pussy. Yes, there is only one dickhead on here right now managing to argue with people that actually know the science but in real life it’s probably 50/50. Many (probably up to half) have outright scorn when you tell them you’ve had this surgery. You can see it in their eyes or how they interact. It’s pretty awesome. Whatever. 

That’s why I started the thread, and am so honest in talking about all my shortcomings and the feelings associated with failure throughout the years,  so hopefully others might benefit from it. 

Wait?  What?  It's easy to quit smoking and drinking?  What the fuck?  You should go into the alcoholic thread and say that.  I dare you. 

Also, I've said this before.  I never said you were sub human or anything.  Tone down the drama.  You said losing weight was impossible and again, you are wrong. You are not an expert on weight loss and fitness.  You should also approach this with an ounce of humility and understand that you have an emotional problem with food.  I'm sure you've stated it somewhere but if you haven't, you need to accept responsibility for your actions and take control of your life.  If you don't address the diet, that surgery won't work out.

You say it's easy for an alcoholic to quit drinking but I tell you to mix in a salad and some exercise and you turn into a complete vagine.  Good hell.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Aqua Buddha

[Neonmoon 38129]

19 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Wait?  What?  It's easy to quit smoking and drinking?  What the fuck?  You should go into the alcoholic thread and say that.  I dare you. 

Also, I've said this before.  I never said you were sub human or anything.  Tone down the drama.  You said losing weight was impossible and again, you are wrong. You are not an expert on weight loss and fitness.  You should also approach this with an ounce of humility and understand that you have an emotional problem with food.  I'm sure you've stated it somewhere but if you haven't, you need to accept responsibility for your actions and take control of your life.  If you don't address the diet, that surgery won't work out.

You say it's easy for an alcoholic to quit drinking but I tell you to mix in a salad and some exercise and you turn into a complete vagine.  Good hell.

You have reading comprehension issues. 

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

2 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You have reading comprehension issues. 

What did I miss below?  BTW, yes you need food to survive but you don't need the volume that goes into being +300 lbs.

 

It’s so easy in some ways to quit smoking/ and I did it for a decade- just don’t go in the gas station and buy a pack. You don’t need it. Same with drinking- just don’t buy it- you don’t need it to survive. Both of those things have been equated to heroin or crack and are as difficult to quit as each of them, yet they are EASIER to quit than requiring your entire eating system for a morbidly obese person, because as you’ve pointed out that person HAS to eat. 

[Gatorubet 30217]

When I was a kid we’d play army or cowboys with cap guns.   There was always one kid who was never going to admit he was killed.  You could sneak up on him and shoot him and he’d explain various theories of why “you missed”!

You could never talk him out of his position.   This reminds me of that. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

40 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

What did I miss below?  BTW, yes you need food to survive but you don't need the volume that goes into being +300 lbs.

 

It’s so easy in some ways to quit smoking/ and I did it for a decade- just don’t go in the gas station and buy a pack. You don’t need it. Same with drinking- just don’t buy it- you don’t need it to survive. Both of those things have been equated to heroin or crack and are as difficult to quit as each of them, yet they are EASIER to quit than requiring your entire eating system for a morbidly obese person, because as you’ve pointed out that person HAS to eat. 

When reading a sentence, it's important to read all the words. 

You read "It's so easy in some ways to quit smoking/ and I did it for a decade - just don't go in the gas station and buy a pack. You don't need it. Same with drinking..." 

In NO FUCKING WAY does that mean "it's easy for an alcoholic to quit drinking"

First off, FOR ME, it is easy to quit drinking. I never had a problem with drinking. This isn't groundbreaking. Not everyone has trouble with quitting alcohol. I will gladly go into the alcoholics thread and say that, because I didn't say it's easy for everyone to quit drinking. And I'm sure, they don't have reading comprehension issues. 

Secondly, no one has said you need the caloric volume that goes into being +300. I don't remember the post where Wulaw said losing weight was impossible, but I'm sure he meant for him, not everyone. You disagree based on YOUR personal experience. 

You keep trying to diagnose him, even though his doctor, and the doctor in this thread, have said otherwise. But you keep waving your cross in his face telling him to repent like a fucking sociopath. 

 

 

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

6 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

When reading a sentence, it's important to read all the words. 

You read "It's so easy in some ways to quit smoking/ and I did it for a decade - just don't go in the gas station and buy a pack. You don't need it. Same with drinking..." 

In NO FUCKING WAY does that mean "it's easy for an alcoholic to quit drinking"

First off, FOR ME, it is easy to quit drinking. I never had a problem with drinking. This isn't groundbreaking. Not everyone has trouble with quitting alcohol. I will gladly go into the alcoholics thread and say that, because I didn't say it's easy for everyone to quit drinking. And I'm sure, they don't have reading comprehension issues. 

Secondly, no one has said you need the caloric volume that goes into being +300. I don't remember the post where Wulaw said losing weight was impossible, but I'm sure he meant for him, not everyone. You disagree based on YOUR personal experience. 

You keep trying to diagnose him, even though his doctor, and the doctor in this thread, have said otherwise. But you keep waving your cross in his face telling him to repent like a fucking sociopath. 

 

 

Well, then in "some ways" it's easy to not be obese.  Just stop eating so much and gets some exercise.

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

11 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

When I was a kid we’d play army or cowboys with cap guns.   There was always one kid who was never going to admit he was killed.  You could sneak up on him and shoot him and he’d explain various theories of why “you missed”!

You could never talk him out of his position.   This reminds me of that. 

My position is that with a proper diet and exercise you won't be obese.  Quite the hot take.

BTW, this weekend I did a 10K, hot power yoga class, and a 15 mile bike ride.  (The yoga class was prolly the hardest of the three, actually.)  This week is taper week for a half marathon.  I'm almost 50 years old.

No one said it's easy.  It's just not impossible.  It happens all the time.  

 

[Brisketexan 105096]

My position is that with a proper diet and exercise you won't be obese.  Quite the hot take.
BTW, this weekend I did a 10K, hot power yoga class, and a 15 mile bike ride.  (The yoga class was prolly the hardest of the three, actually.)  This week is taper week for a half marathon.  I'm almost 50 years old.
No one said it's easy.  It's just not impossible.  It happens all the time.  
 

“My position is that if you stop smoking, you won’t have smoking related illnesses.”

“My position is that if you just quit drinking, you won’t have any of those alcoholic problems.”

It’s the “if you just quit” part where the fucking spread is. I could quit drinking tomorrow. It’s no big deal for me. For others I know, it’s the struggle of their lives. Some have even succumbed to it. The person DOING the task is more relevant than the task itself. Brains matter. Psyches matter. Different people have different wiring.

Oh, and good on you for running marathons and shit. Some of us have had a destroyed knee since high school, so it’s not exactly as easy as just “go run a 10k, either” - as just one example of your asininity.

Nobody here is saying that reducing calories and exercising isn’t a sure fire path to weight loss. We’re observing the real-world truth that for a shitload of people, it isn’t as easy as “just decide to do this thing that I decided to do.”

FTR, I’ve had success at times in both respects. But it’s also hard for me because 1) I really, really like good food…it’s one of the great pleasures in life for me (compared to other people I know who don’t give a damn about food - give me a dry chicken breast and some broccoli, and they’re great); 2) time to tend to both diet and exercise is a bitch in my current career and position (my exercise is usually walks, well after dark, because that’s when I get home); and 3) the aforementioned bum knee. Running is never going to happen. Even weekend tai chi, which I do, can be tough. And I’m probably a middle of the road case; I need to lose weight, but I could be worse off too.

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

“My position is that if you stop smoking, you won’t have smoking related illnesses.”

“My position is that if you just quit drinking, you won’t have any of those alcoholic problems.”

It’s the “if you just quit” part where the fucking spread is. I could quit drinking tomorrow. It’s no big deal for me. For others I know, it’s the struggle of their lives. Some have even succumbed to it. The person DOING the task is more relevant than the task itself. Brains matter. Psyches matter. Different people have different wiring.

Oh, and good on you for running marathons and shit. Some of us have had a destroyed knee since high school, so it’s not exactly as easy as just “go run a 10k, either” - as just one example of your asininity.

Nobody here is saying that reducing calories and exercising isn’t a sure fire path to weight loss. We’re observing the real-world truth that for a shitload of people, it isn’t as easy as “just decide to do this thing that I decided to do.”

FTR, I’ve had success at times in both respects. But it’s also hard for me because 1) I really, really like good food…it’s one of the great pleasures in life for me (compared to other people I know who don’t give a damn about food - give me a dry chicken breast and some broccoli, and they’re great); 2) time to tend to both diet and exercise is a bitch in my current career and position (my exercise is usually walks, well after dark, because that’s when I get home); and 3) the aforementioned bum knee. Running is never going to happen. Even weekend tai chi, which I do, can be tough. And I’m probably a middle of the road case; I need to lose weight, but I could be worse off too.

 

Didn't say you have to run.  (Running is hard on even a healthy body.)  There are plenty of other exercise options.  Even walking is good.  

But yes, there are people that are saying reducing calories and exercise isn't a sure fire option.  BTW, I've never said it was easy.  I've repeatedly said it's really fucking hard and is a multi year process.  I just take umbrage with the idea that it's impossible.

I was today years old when I learned my wife knows at least 10 grown assed women who are on Adderall.  Let's throw in Ozymic and just keep everyone medicated for the rest of our lives.

[Brisketexan 105096]

 
Didn't say you have to run.  (Running is hard on even a healthy body.)  There are plenty of other exercise options.  Even walking is good.  
But yes, there are people that are saying reducing calories and exercise isn't a sure fire option.  BTW, I've never said it was easy.  I've repeatedly said it's really fucking hard and is a multi year process.  I just take umbrage with the idea that it's impossible.
I was today years old when I learned my wife knows at least 10 grown assed women who are on Adderall.  Let's throw in Ozymic and just keep everyone medicated for the rest of our lives.

“Quitting alcohol can be hard, and a multi-year process. I just take umbrage with the idea that it’s impossible.”
For the friends I’ve buried because they succumbed to booze, it WAS impossible. For them, at least.
For some people, the demon is fucking bigger than they are. The cemeteries are full of proof.

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

“Quitting alcohol can be hard, and a multi-year process. I just take umbrage with the idea that it’s impossible.”
For the friends I’ve buried because they succumbed to booze, it WAS impossible. For them, at least.
For some people, the demon is fucking bigger than they are. The cemeteries are full of proof.

Fair point.

I do like the way you put it about the demon.  (I've equated food with alcohol but was told that was wrong after being told food was an addiction like alcohol so I'm confused about what the rules are.)  But yes, food can be a demon like sex, drugs, alcohol, etc.  There is an emotional and chemical component to it.  But if we're not back to putting obese people on par with addicts, then their first step is to admit they are powerless and need help.  

The emotional component with food is huge.  Sawbonz has been very informative with his posts and links.  I've actually learned a lot.  However, while he's right about some people being chemically wired to never feel full, have you ever seen anyone binge eat salads, fruits, and vegetables?  

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

29 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

 But yes, there are people that are saying reducing calories and exercise isn't a sure fire option.  BTW, I've never said it was easy.  I've repeatedly said it's really fucking hard and is a multi year process.  I just take umbrage with the idea that it's impossible.

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

Let me leave this here.  It's not your imagination.  Portion sizes are much bigger than they were years ago.

"Diet" doesn't just mean what you eat.  It's how much you eat.  (Supplee had a great revelation about that in his story.)  If you travel internationally at all, you would know that Americans eat shit food and they eat a lot of it. 

What I find interesting about Sawbonz's data is the question of whether years and years of shit diet have rewired people's bodies.  (I don't know.)  I do think he is underrating diet and your ability to change it.

[Gatorubet 30217]

1 hour ago, Aqua Buddha said:

 

Counterpoint:

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gatorubet

[Gatorubet 30217]

2 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Well, then in "some ways" it's easy to not be obese.  Just stop eating so much and gets some exercise.

Several people have pointed out that it’s relatively easy for you not to be an asshole in this thread. And yet you consistently fail to achieve a goal that is relatively easy for the rest of us to achieve.   Why are you incapable of NOT beating this dead horse?  Upbringing? Self-esteem? Bad-touched while a fatty kid? Fear of being wrong?

We do not know, but we support you in your continuing struggle…given the multiple nuanced factors preventing your success. 

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

8 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Several people have pointed out that it’s relatively easy for you not to be an asshole in this thread. And yet you consistently fail to achieve a goal that is relatively easy for the rest of us to achieve.   Why are you incapable of NOT beating this dead horse?  Upbringing? Self-esteem? Bad-touched while a fatty kid? Fear of being wrong?

We do not know, but we support you in your continuing struggle…given the multiple nuanced factors preventing your success. 

Yes, I am an asshole.  I’ve said that numerous times.

I’m not wrong, though.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

This thread needs liposuction.

[Gatorubet 30217]

3 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

You could never talk him out of his position.   This reminds me of that. 

11 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Yes, I am an asshole.  I’ve said that numerous times.

I’m not wrong, though.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gatorubet

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

OK, I'll be an asshole now.  Below is what Wulaw was eating before his surgery.  Someone tell me that he was trying.  This is a direct cut and paste.  I mean, what the fuck?  If an alcoholic went on a 3 day bender before checking into rebab, you would think differently.  It wouldn't be a laughing matter.  Doctors suggested he diet.  He didn't care.  I would never eat like this once but he did the tour:

 

 I weighted 322 pounds at that time. I decided to do a last meal tour of all the places I love to eat and eat what I wanted at all those places.  You are supposed to diet, but that was suggested not madatory. I chose not to. So- Fajitas at Papasitos, Chinese Buffet, a lot of Chuys and Gringos, Prime rib and cheese fries at Outback- shit like that.  The 3 things I wish I'd have done on that tour b/c I can never do again- All you can eat meat at Fogo, Try to beat the 72 OZ steak up in Abilene, eat a triple meat triple cheese whataburger 1 last time (My wife was so horrified when she saw this the first time we started dating she made me swear I would never do it again- a promise I have kept.  So- I did all my fat person things that's I'd never be able to do with 80% of a stomach again.  

 

But I'm mean because I tell Wulaw he eats badly.  I hope it works for him, I really do.  But he needs to deal with his relationship with food and if he doesn't this saga will end badly.

[SaucyJack 3488]

Narrator:” It’s ending badly for everybody”.
 

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

This is from @pearlandhorn:  Props, bro.  It can be done and I respect the grind:

 

 went from 316 to 185 and it was tough (6'2").  Best thing about it is being able to go into any store and buy clothes off the rack.

Diet/exercise even though most people I encounter ask if I had the surgery.  I decided it was time to make a change on my 30th birthday (I turn 35 next month).  Complete diet 180, stopped eating out, stopped drinking calories, did low carb for the first 2 years.  Lost about 90 pounds within the first 4 months or so.  Then hit the exercise routine for about a year, then COVID hit and I started running for exercise.  I was probably 195 when COVID hit and kept running all the way down to 180.  Switched up my diet to be high carb, high protein, medium fat and when the gyms opened again, did a hybrid routine of gym/running.  To answer your question, I was down to 185 in about 3 years.

[Captain Obvious 516]

5 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

Counterpoint:

 

No carbs or sugar there.

Fred also worked in a rock quarry all day, threw another rock around whenever he went bowling, and had to run with that stupid car to get it started.  

And he still wasn't skinny.

[Neonmoon 38129]

8 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

This is from @pearlandhorn:  Props, bro.  It can be done and I respect the grind:

 

 went from 316 to 185 and it was tough (6'2").  Best thing about it is being able to go into any store and buy clothes off the rack.

Diet/exercise even though most people I encounter ask if I had the surgery.  I decided it was time to make a change on my 30th birthday (I turn 35 next month).  Complete diet 180, stopped eating out, stopped drinking calories, did low carb for the first 2 years.  Lost about 90 pounds within the first 4 months or so.  Then hit the exercise routine for about a year, then COVID hit and I started running for exercise.  I was probably 195 when COVID hit and kept running all the way down to 180.  Switched up my diet to be high carb, high protein, medium fat and when the gyms opened again, did a hybrid routine of gym/running.  To answer your question, I was down to 185 in about 3 years.

Are you autistic? 

[Nivek 16923]

15 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

When I was a kid we’d play army or cowboys with cap guns.   There was always one kid who was never going to admit he was killed.  You could sneak up on him and shoot him and he’d explain various theories of why “you missed”!

You could never talk him out of his position.   This reminds me of that. 

You know my brother?

[Deej 76759]

14 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Let me leave this here.  It's not your imagination.  Portion sizes are much bigger than they were years ago.

"Diet" doesn't just mean what you eat.  It's how much you eat.  (Supplee had a great revelation about that in his story.)  If you travel internationally at all, you would know that Americans eat shit food and they eat a lot of it. 

What I find interesting about Sawbonz's data is the question of whether years and years of shit diet have rewired people's bodies.  (I don't know.)  I do think he is underrating diet and your ability to change it.

What's the caloric difference if I just eat the muffin top, and not the stump?

[Texzilla58 4733]

EDIT:  Oh yeah, and Americans are addicted to fucking sugar.  We put sugar in everything.  Coffee, tea, food, orange juice, fucking PEANUT BUTTER!.  WHY?  If I had to estimate, I’d say the average adult American consumes about 800 calories per day in liquid calories.  Drink fucking water or coffee with Splenda.  It’s not difficult people.

I wish sugar was in everything instead of fucking High Fructose Corn Syrup. It’s fucking industrial poison and should be a banned substance. Get it out of your house and you will feel better and your kids will be better even if you replace it with genuine cane sugar.

If you eat the stuff God or nature gave us instead of man made stuff you’ll be healthier. This country was healthier diet wise on a diet of venison, beans, bacon, greens, and cornbread 120 years ago than now.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

15 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

When reading a sentence, it's important to read all the words. 

You read "It's so easy in some ways to quit smoking/ and I did it for a decade - just don't go in the gas station and buy a pack. You don't need it. Same with drinking..." 

In NO FUCKING WAY does that mean "it's easy for an alcoholic to quit drinking"

First off, FOR ME, it is easy to quit drinking. I never had a problem with drinking. This isn't groundbreaking. Not everyone has trouble with quitting alcohol. I will gladly go into the alcoholics thread and say that, because I didn't say it's easy for everyone to quit drinking. And I'm sure, they don't have reading comprehension issues. 

Secondly, no one has said you need the caloric volume that goes into being +300. I don't remember the post where Wulaw said losing weight was impossible, but I'm sure he meant for him, not everyone. You disagree based on YOUR personal experience. 

You keep trying to diagnose him, even though his doctor, and the doctor in this thread, have said otherwise. But you keep waving your cross in his face telling him to repent like a fucking sociopath. 

 

 

Like a fucking sociopath. Thanks man. That’s what it felt like before I learned how to ignore a user again. It’s not intuitive. You’d think you’d click on their profile or some shit but no, you hover over their name and the option pops up. Weird. 
whats awful about him and what he’s doing here is he isn’t stupid, he is intentionally trying to misrepresent every thing that’s been said because he’s always hated me and acted like an ankle biter toward me and the only way he’s able to shit on me without an online lynch mob forming is to intentionally obfuscate what I’m saying. 

[BabaYaga 15290]

20 minutes ago, Texzilla58 said:

I wish sugar was in everything instead of fucking High Fructose Corn Syrup. It’s fucking industrial poison and should be a banned substance. Get it out of your house and you will feel better and your kids will be better even if you replace it with genuine cane sugar.

If you eat the stuff God or nature gave us instead of man made stuff you’ll be healthier. This country was healthier diet wise on a diet of venison, beans, bacon, greens, and cornbread 120 years ago than now.

At the end of the day, the math is simple:  calories in vs calories out

Simple, not easy.  If every one of us was on a deserted island for 6 weeks with a limited but available food/water supply, we'd all drop dozens of pounds.  

[Nivek 16923]

12 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Yes, I am an asshole.  I’ve said that numerous times.

I’m not wrong, though.

Listen, man, first of all, being an asshole is not something that should be celebrated and it is not a goal you should strive to achieve.  By starting out with this tough love approach you may think that you are helping him, but in reality, you are just violating one of Cialdini's 7 principles of persuasion.   You have decided to embrace unliking, oddly.   And while tough love and public shaming do indeed work in a more collective society (like Japan) it does not work so well in an individualistic society like ours.  

You pointed out that portion sizes have grown, and waistlines have expanded along with them.  Someone pointed out the amount of sugar in carbonated beverages.  Someone probably pointed out that other foods have been engineered to be as addictive as possible.   Another pointed out that the difference between food addictions and other addictions is that food is a necessary component to sustain life.  Sawbones linked an article that speaks to the constant battle that obese people face as biology is working against them.    You already know that the advertising for food and in particular junky food is a near much more frequent than other vices.   Heroin is not being advertised on some billboard outside your office or in your home late at night.  Nor is it full of attractive people looking like they are having fun.    

But comparisons are silly really.  The fact that people have busier lives leads to more eating out.  That parents taught their kids to 'clean their plate' in the past has an impact especially as portion sizes grew.   That food is engineered to be more addictive has an impact.  That the body is biologically wired to hoard calories has an impact.  That we keep pushing people who are worn out to exercise willpower and then constantly bombard them with advertisements to undermine their willpower has an impact.    Ultimately, it is lazy thinking to believe people suddenly and magically became lazy and stopped moving or caring rather than taking the time to look into the cause of such behavioral, lifestyle, and dietary changes at a population level.

We should be addressing this as a national problem, maybe sin taxing shitty food like we sin tax other vices.   Maybe limit advertising and signs which promote shitty restaurant options or that try to hook kids with toys.   

Blaming individuals without empowering them doesn't really work unless your goal is simply to be an asshole and cause people to doubt themselves.  To me, this is a parallel to other societal problems that we have.   For example,  guns are the most likely cause of death for children (a societal problem) and yet we continue to try to push this as an individual problem.   So the natural question to might be something like "Why are we so fucking bad at actually coming together to solve problems instead of just pointing fingers?"   Wait, you told me, we are lazy.  

 

 

 

 

[totallynotabuttpirate 5396]

16 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

When I was a kid we’d play army or cowboys with cap guns.   There was always one kid who was never going to admit he was killed.  You could sneak up on him and shoot him and he’d explain various theories of why “you missed”!

You could never talk him out of his position.   This reminds me of that. 

I would've just killed him to really end the argument. 

[Celery Man 20934]

the big macro problem of why our diets are so shitty is only one of many topics relevant to a discussion about people, how they get fat, why they do, why they did, why we did, how they stop being that way, how they stay that way, how your golf buddy's wife is a pig and did it to herself, why we are assholes, etc. 

i would suggest that it is an inevitable outcome of how our society thinks, feels, and actually acts in regards to capitalism, our founding myths, and by God freedom.

[BabaYaga 15290]

44 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

the big macro problem of why our diets are so shitty is only one of many topics relevant to a discussion about people, how they get fat, why they do, why they did, why we did, how they stop being that way, how they stay that way, how your golf buddy's wife is a pig and did it to herself, why we are assholes, etc. 

i would suggest that it is an inevitable outcome of how our society thinks, feels, and actually acts in regards to capitalism, our founding myths, and by God freedom.

[closetohumping 17440]

On 7/1/2021 at 7:45 AM, Hanrahan said:

I am well aware of the ongoing obesity problem but is this thing really starting to get out of hand?  I went to an Astros game last night - first stadium event post-pandemic - and a solid 1/3 of the people in my section were morbidly obese.  Like fat rolls all around and spilling over fat.  Another 40% were fat and/or overweight.  I'd say about 30% were what one would generally consider to be a normal body type.  Maybe it was just a bad random sample but I am still shaking my head at the 350-punder who ate a batting helmet full of nachos, used his finger to scrape and eat the leftover cheese and then busted out an insulin pen.

Note: I need to drop about 20 and am not some skinny guy gratuitously fat hating.

Had no idea Surly was sponsoring an event. It's an American thing, but also a Texas thing.  We have less fats out here in California. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by closetohumping

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

3 hours ago, Nivek said:

Listen, man, first of all, being an asshole is not something that should be celebrated and it is not a goal you should strive to achieve.  By starting out with this tough love approach you may think that you are helping him, but in reality, you are just violating one of Cialdini's 7 principles of persuasion.   You have decided to embrace unliking, oddly.   And while tough love and public shaming do indeed work in a more collective society (like Japan) it does not work so well in an individualistic society like ours.  

You pointed out that portion sizes have grown, and waistlines have expanded along with them.  Someone pointed out the amount of sugar in carbonated beverages.  Someone probably pointed out that other foods have been engineered to be as addictive as possible.   Another pointed out that the difference between food addictions and other addictions is that food is a necessary component to sustain life.  Sawbones linked an article that speaks to the constant battle that obese people face as biology is working against them.    You already know that the advertising for food and in particular junky food is a near much more frequent than other vices.   Heroin is not being advertised on some billboard outside your office or in your home late at night.  Nor is it full of attractive people looking like they are having fun.    

But comparisons are silly really.  The fact that people have busier lives leads to more eating out.  That parents taught their kids to 'clean their plate' in the past has an impact especially as portion sizes grew.   That food is engineered to be more addictive has an impact.  That the body is biologically wired to hoard calories has an impact.  That we keep pushing people who are worn out to exercise willpower and then constantly bombard them with advertisements to undermine their willpower has an impact.    Ultimately, it is lazy thinking to believe people suddenly and magically became lazy and stopped moving or caring rather than taking the time to look into the cause of such behavioral, lifestyle, and dietary changes at a population level.

We should be addressing this as a national problem, maybe sin taxing shitty food like we sin tax other vices.   Maybe limit advertising and signs which promote shitty restaurant options or that try to hook kids with toys.   

Blaming individuals without empowering them doesn't really work unless your goal is simply to be an asshole and cause people to doubt themselves.  To me, this is a parallel to other societal problems that we have.   For example,  guns are the most likely cause of death for children (a societal problem) and yet we continue to try to push this as an individual problem.   So the natural question to might be something like "Why are we so fucking bad at actually coming together to solve problems instead of just pointing fingers?"   Wait, you told me, we are lazy.  

 

 

 

 

I'm the one who posted most of that info outside of Sawbonz's links.  I know more about Big Food than probably anyone on here unless there's an actual dietician and there may be.  That's me trying to "empower" people into understanding the root cause is really diet.  You can dive into the science about what drives diet and cravings but at the end of the day, it's about diet.

Also, I'm continually suggested all types.  That's me "empowering" people to try to get moving.  I'd then hear the reason why people can't do specific exercises despite that I never said that.  If you have various ailments, work with a personal trainer and they'll put together a plan.  I'm actually a big fan of walking.  By that I mean somewhat fast, power walking.  Step it out.  Much easier on the knees if that's a problem.  Easy to walk for 30-60 minutes and listen to a podcast.  Treadmills, too.

But overeating has an emotional component to it.  It should be classified an eating disorder like anorexia and bulimia.  We just have to acknowledge it like anything else.  One of the frequent excuses is that eating is different than booze because it's needed to live.  Yes, eating is but overeating isn't.  (No one binge eats fruits and vegetables.)

I've also never suggested some quack diet like Tom Brady or Gwyneth Paltrow are on.  Sam with fitness programs.  Only a very small number of people can work out obsessively.  

Just not sure why saying diet and exercise and anything is possible is so controversial.  

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Aqua Buddha

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

3 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

At the end of the day, the math is simple:  calories in vs calories out

Simple, not easy.  If every one of us was on a deserted island for 6 weeks with a limited but available food/water supply, we'd all drop dozens of pounds.  

All the service branches have fat platoons (at least they used to) where if someone is too fat based on regulations, they're in a training platoon until they make weight and then they start training.  (It's what you think it is.)  It works 100% unless the recruits simply wash out.

[nbmishoid 949]

3 hours ago, Nivek said:

Listen, man, first of all, being an asshole is not something that should be celebrated and it is not a goal you should strive to achieve.  By starting out with this tough love approach you may think that you are helping him, but in reality, you are just violating one of Cialdini's 7 principles of persuasion.   You have decided to embrace unliking, oddly.   And while tough love and public shaming do indeed work in a more collective society (like Japan) it does not work so well in an individualistic society like ours.  

You pointed out that portion sizes have grown, and waistlines have expanded along with them.  Someone pointed out the amount of sugar in carbonated beverages.  Someone probably pointed out that other foods have been engineered to be as addictive as possible.   Another pointed out that the difference between food addictions and other addictions is that food is a necessary component to sustain life.  Sawbones linked an article that speaks to the constant battle that obese people face as biology is working against them.    You already know that the advertising for food and in particular junky food is a near much more frequent than other vices.   Heroin is not being advertised on some billboard outside your office or in your home late at night.  Nor is it full of attractive people looking like they are having fun.    

But comparisons are silly really.  The fact that people have busier lives leads to more eating out.  That parents taught their kids to 'clean their plate' in the past has an impact especially as portion sizes grew.   That food is engineered to be more addictive has an impact.  That the body is biologically wired to hoard calories has an impact.  That we keep pushing people who are worn out to exercise willpower and then constantly bombard them with advertisements to undermine their willpower has an impact.    Ultimately, it is lazy thinking to believe people suddenly and magically became lazy and stopped moving or caring rather than taking the time to look into the cause of such behavioral, lifestyle, and dietary changes at a population level.

We should be addressing this as a national problem, maybe sin taxing shitty food like we sin tax other vices.   Maybe limit advertising and signs which promote shitty restaurant options or that try to hook kids with toys.   

Blaming individuals without empowering them doesn't really work unless your goal is simply to be an asshole and cause people to doubt themselves.  To me, this is a parallel to other societal problems that we have.   For example,  guns are the most likely cause of death for children (a societal problem) and yet we continue to try to push this as an individual problem.   So the natural question to might be something like "Why are we so fucking bad at actually coming together to solve problems instead of just pointing fingers?"   Wait, you told me, we are lazy.  

 

 

 

 

Just a shout out for the Cialdini reference.  

5 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

All the service branches have fat platoons (at least they used to) where if someone is too fat based on regulations, they're in a training platoon until they make weight and then they start training.  (It's what you think it is.)  It works 100% unless the recruits simply wash out.

So, it doesn’t work 100%

Edited March 27, 2023 by nbmishoid
Correct spell check

[BabaYaga 15290]

2 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

So, it doesn’t work 100%

It works as long as the recruit doesn't quit or is injured and is unable to continue