Latest GOP cancel culture: revisiting the Alamo

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

If you want to say anything that veers away from the John Wayne movie, you're cancelled by the right.

https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2021-07-01/bullock-museum-cancels-forget-the-alamo-program-under-pressure/

The Bullock museum was hosting a virtual event last night to discuss a book that hits on the myths of the Alamo and Texas Independence. Abbott and Patrick heard about it, and it was cancelled.

I haven't read the book so I may not get all of the facts straight but I gather it discusses that maintaining slavery was a critical reason for Texas fighting for independence. 7th grade Texas history was a long time ago, but I distinctly remember that fact being discussed in class. I can't recall if it was in the textbook or we had a rebel teacher who spoke the truth. I don't think there is any dispute that Mexico was opposed to slavery but Texians wanted the right to have slaves. But politicians want us focusing more on the independence battles than the purpose of independence.

Another controversial subject of the book is around Phil Collins. Some believe that he was taken for a ride in buying all of his Alamo artifacts and much of it is fake. But state officials want to create a museum for Collins' collection and therefore another state museum (Bullock) can't have authors making that claim. Understandably Collins isn't happy with that claim and has threatened to take back his collection.

[Red Five 40665]

5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Another controversial subject of the book is around Phil Collins.

Alright simulation, you win. 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

The reason for Texas independence was so Texans could keep their guns, make sure abortions were illegal, keep the illegal Mexicans from coming across the border, and that booze wouldn't be allowed to be purchased on Sunday mornings.  It had nothing to do with slavery you leftist, socialist bastard!

By the way, I got a hundred bucks says the sentence above is taught in Texas schools in the next decade.....sadly.  

[formermav43 4599]

11 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If you want to say anything that veers away from the John Wayne movie, you're cancelled by the right.

https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2021-07-01/bullock-museum-cancels-forget-the-alamo-program-under-pressure/

The Bullock museum was hosting a virtual event last night to discuss a book that hits on the myths of the Alamo and Texas Independence. Abbott and Patrick heard about it, and it was cancelled.

I haven't read the book so I may not get all of the facts straight but I gather it discusses that maintaining slavery was a critical reason for Texas fighting for independence. 7th grade Texas history was a long time ago, but I distinctly remember that fact being discussed in class. I can't recall if it was in the textbook or we had a rebel teacher who spoke the truth. I don't think there is any dispute that Mexico was opposed to slavery but Texians wanted the right to have slaves. But politicians want us focusing more on the independence battles than the purpose of independence.

I haven’t read the book yet either, but there was some brief discussion of it on another thread recently. Revising the mythical version of the Alamo (and the “Texas Revolution” more generally) so that there’s an understanding that slavery was one of the causes is good; the authors seemed, however, based on an interview with them, to go too far to make their idealogical point, arguing (paraphrasing) that Santa Anna was a good guy who just wanted liberal democracy to flourish if not for these white dudes in Texas (ignoring that multiple other Mexican states were in rebellion against his tyranny).

At any rate, there should be free and open discussion of scholarly ideas without politicians getting involved.

[tantric superman 4667]

John Wayne/Davy Crockett was a fag.

It's true you boys.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

5 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I haven’t read the book yet either, but there was some brief discussion of it on another thread recently. Revising the mythical version of the Alamo (and the “Texas Revolution” more generally) so that there’s an understanding that slavery was one of the causes is good; the authors seemed, however, based on an interview with them, to go too far to make their idealogical point, arguing (paraphrasing) that Santa Anna was a good guy who just wanted liberal democracy to flourish if not for these white dudes in Texas (ignoring that multiple other Mexican states were in rebellion against his tyranny).

At any rate, there should be free and open discussion of scholarly ideas without politicians getting involved.

Unfortunately if an issue discusses white people and their history of repression of others, it's a political issue. I have no doubt that right politicians understand this to be true but they're sick of white people being the villain. Or more likely, they don't want to be called out by white people that are sick of being the villain.

There is no downside in Abbott forcing that talk to be cancelled.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

2 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

John Wayne/Davy Crockett was a fag.

It's true you boys.

And LBJ was a Soviet Jeeewwwww

 

[Guest Lobo]

So you're saying the genesis of this controversial talk is Phil Collins?  

[Underdog 28457]

7 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

John Wayne/Davy Crockett was a fag.

It's true you boys.

Well, The Duke did walk sorta funny.  

[RomaVicta 29794]

I'm about to move beyond being embarrassed about this state to despising it. 

 

Quote

Forget the Alamo, which has only been in stores for three weeks, was already in the sights of the right-wingers and Texas jingoists who have fomented hysterics about the fate of the actual San Antonio battle site, and the story told to Texas students about the 1836 siege, for at least two full election cycles now. Earlier this month, Abbott signed House Bill 2497, which creates the "Texas 1836 Project," because, he said, "we must never forget why Texas became so exceptional in the first place." The name echoes the New York Times' 1619 Project, centered on slavery, but intends to rebut it; as 1619 Project creator Nikole Hannah-Jones told the Texas Tribune, "We've been here before."

We must never forget why Texas is so fucking great and different from everywhere else! If the USA leads the world in self-congratulation, then by gawd Texas leads the USA in that regard.

Oddly, Abbott's action is itself a demonstration of what's exceptional about Texas now. Fucking idiots who choose corrupt power grabbers and shout yahoo when they do it.

Our state song pretty much lines out our stand on humility and circumspection:

Quote

The state song is "Texas, Our Texas" by William J. Marsh and Gladys Yoakum Wright. The lyrics are:

Texas, our Texas! All hail the mighty State!
Texas, our Texas! So wonderful so great!
Boldest and grandest, Withstanding ev'ry test;
O Empire wide and glorious, You stand supremely blest.

[Refrain] God bless you Texas! And keep you brave and strong,
That you may grow in power and worth, Thro'out the ages long.

Texas, O Texas! Your freeborn single star,
Sends out its radiance to nations near and far.
Emblem of freedom! It sets our hearts aglow,
With thoughts of San Jacinto and glorious Alamo.

[Refrain]

Texas, dear Texas! From tyrant grip now free,
Shines forth in splendor your star of destiny!
Mother of heroes! We come your children true,
Proclaiming our allegiance, our faith, our love for you.

My dad was born in Port Arthur and worked the refineries before enlisting in the Army Air Corps then going to college. He'd see a "Native Texan" bumper sticker and shake his head.

Imagine somebody putting that on their car. What kind of achievement is that?

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Unfortunately if an issue discusses white people and their history of repression of others, it's a political issue. I have no doubt that right politicians understand this to be true but they're sick of white people being the villain. Or more likely, they don't want to be called out by white people that are sick of being the villain.

There is no downside in Abbott forcing that talk to be cancelled.

Like I said in the other thread, I don't get why there's this fuss over slavery as a huge issue...It's the way I was taught decades ago and even Armybrat says it was the way he learned it in the 1850s. And we've long known Crockett did not die swinging his rifle around, nor did Bowie take 12 Mexicans to the grave with him from his deathbed. It never would have occurred to me to bother writing a book like that because I thought any of us who are willing to believe the truth about the battle and the revolution already did. And I guess that's still the case. 

 

[Degenerate Gardner 4081]

As a Dem voter, obviously nothing would thrill me more than the Alamo being turned into a La Raza recruitment center.

Without fear-mongering the right would be dead in the water. Maybe even have to focus on finding solutions to the pressing problems of our time rather than stoking the hate machine.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Degenerate Gardner

[Disco Strangler 1865]

Phil Collins got taken for a ride by some shady artifact dealers.  Basically, documents are probably real, but physical objects were likely fake.

He should retain a lawyer and sue, sue, sudio. 

[aggie08 21434]

I thought it was understood that the story of the Alamo is largely propagandized bullshit that we're just okay playing along with?

[RomaVicta 29794]

13 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Unfortunately if an issue discusses white people and their history of repression of others, it's a political issue. I have no doubt that right politicians understand this to be true but they're sick of white people being the villain. Or more likely, they don't want to be called out by white people that are sick of being the villain.

There is no downside in Abbott forcing that talk to be cancelled.

I'd only amend your fine post to say white men. We did a pretty good job of keeping white women down along with everyone else. We turned police with batons loose on them just for wanting to vote. A byproduct of white women being close to white men is that many, sadly, went full Stockholm syndrome and became Karens.

I'm white. I'm open minded. I've learned that there are things I just don't see regarding the subtle or grotesque ways the world is different for persons unlike me. I'm not malicious. I don't want to see people subjugated. Still, BLM and Me Too proved that there are things going on all the time that I do not perceive. 

What else am I missing?

I'll be (even more) tiresome and repeat that if it were possible, I'd remove white men from all positions of power for at least ten years. I'll quote fellow white man Henry Rollins yet again, white man rule has been "a poorly run carnage fest" for a long, long time.

"Yeah, well what about this bad black woman, or that murderous white woman, or that corrupt person of color?"

Something bad doesn't have to stay in place until something perfect is found to replace it. I truly believe things would be better if the white man ruling class were replaced. Today. For at least a decade.

This pathetic story about blocking a discussion of history that considers events beyond popular fable is what you get when a class of people want to tell you their footsteps are red with wholesome ketchup instead of blood. 

I pledge to not vote for any white man where there is viable woman or person of color on the ballot.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

1 minute ago, Disco Strangler said:

Phil Collins got taken for a ride by some shady artifact dealers.  Basically, documents are probably real, but physical objects were likely fake.

He should retain a lawyer and sue, sue, sudio. 

Oh man there is a huge black market of forged documents too. I have a cousin who got caught up in it decades ago and wrote a book about it. That whole deal culminated in one of the forgers found dead in a creek, shot in the head. Probably suicide but maybe not...

Some of the documents may be legit but could quite possibly be stolen. Back in the '50s and '60s, when this market started taking off, a few dudes were just fanning out across Texas, going to the reference room in public libraries, and just swiping hyper-rare and valuable documents. But before selling the originals, somebody would forge plenty more. 

[Francisco 2.0 32342]

33 minutes ago, Lobo said:

So you're saying the genesis of this controversial talk is Phil Collins?  

He's In Too Deep.

 

 

 

 

[Jester 382]

27 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

My dad was born in Port Arthur and worked the refineries before enlisting in the Army Air Corps then going to college. He'd see a "Native Texan" bumper sticker and shake his head.

Imagine somebody putting that on their car. What kind of achievement is that?

Maybe they could see into the future and just really like the beer?

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

36 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Well, The Duke did walk sorta funny.  

And his name was Marion…

[Brisketexan 104628]

The story of the Alamo and Texas independence is like damned near everything else: it's complicated.

It ain't all noble freedom bullshit.  But....it's also not all "we fought Mexico so we could be racist against mexicans and keep slavery."

90% of the human beings of good and decent character of a certain time.....were also racist.  Because that was THE conventional wisdom (as just one example of a belief we find loathsome today that wasn't the case 150+ years ago).  People are.....complicated.

I am a son of Texas.  I have family members with historical markers on their graves.  And even their history in the Texas borderlands is....complicated.  History has few angels, and few devils.  Instead, it's full of people, in shades of gray.

The conservative reflexive pushback against ANY discussion that doesn't start with "America/Texas is the awesomest bestest and there ain't no place awesomer bester!" is pathetic and sad.

[Dirk X West 772]

32 minutes ago, Disco Strangler said:

Phil Collins got taken for a ride by some shady artifact dealers.  Basically, documents are probably real, but physical objects were likely fake.

He should retain a lawyer and sue, sue, sudio. 

There must be some misunderstanding.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Yeah, lost in the moral high-ground, high-horsing about slavery is the fact that the Alamo was built to "Christianize" natives so they could be practically enslaved.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The story of the Alamo and Texas independence is like damned near everything else: it's complicated.

It ain't all noble freedom bullshit.  But....it's also not all "we fought Mexico so we could be racist against mexicans and keep slavery."

90% of the human beings of good and decent character of a certain time.....were also racist.  Because that was THE conventional wisdom (as just one example of a belief we find loathsome today that wasn't the case 150+ years ago).  People are.....complicated.

I am a son of Texas.  I have family members with historical markers on their graves.  And even their history in the Texas borderlands is....complicated.  History has few angels, and few devils.  Instead, it's full of people, in shades of gray.

The conservative reflexive pushback against ANY discussion that doesn't start with "America/Texas is the awesomest bestest and there ain't no place awesomer bester!" is pathetic and sad.

This.  And we really need to stop judging people who lived centuries ago by today's moral standards.  Truth is, EVERYONE in the world does good and bad things.  People are complicated.  Teach the facts, and leave the interpretations and opinions OUT.

[BrickHorn 18194]

1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

John Wayne/Davy Crockett was a fag.

It's true you boys.

I don’t know about that. But it turns out Jim Bowie was kind of a piece of shit.

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

This.  And we really need to stop judging people who lived centuries ago by today's moral standards.  Truth is, EVERYONE in the world does good and bad things.  People are complicated.  Teach the facts, and leave the interpretations and opinions OUT.

[Anastasis] BOTH SIDES. [/Anastasis]

But....yes.  Thomas Jefferson is a great example.   There's a lot to put in the "admirable" column about TJ.  He was a helluva thinker, a writer, and incredibly well-read and thoughtful. He also carried on a lifelong affair with a subservient piece of property who could not meaningfully consent/not consent to his sexual advances.  Which, by the way....was a cultural norm of the time.  A repugnant, awful social norm....but a norm nonetheless.

It is true that he was boning Sally Hemmings, who was not his wife, and was his property.  And it is true that as a slave, she had no legal right or ability to consent or not consent.  There is reason to believe that it WAS consensual.  But based on her status, could it ever be truly consensual?  All a discussion about actual facts that should be had.  That doesn't mean we're "cancelling" Thomas Jefferson.  Rather, it means that we're looking at the whole man, and the whole story.

You know, THE TRUTH.

[Jive Turkey 12568]

the authors reached out to Phil Collins for his thoughts on the matter, but there was no reply at all.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

So you're saying the genesis of this controversial talk is Phil Collins?  

I think it's best we keep it dark.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

[Anastasis] BOTH SIDES. [/Anastasis]

But....yes.  Thomas Jefferson is a great example.   There's a lot to put in the "admirable" column about TJ.  He was a helluva thinker, a writer, and incredibly well-read and thoughtful. He also carried on a lifelong affair with a subservient piece of property who could not meaningfully consent/not consent to his sexual advances.  Which, by the way....was a cultural norm of the time.  A repugnant, awful social norm....but a norm nonetheless.

It is true that he was boning Sally Hemmings, who was not his wife, and was his property.  And it is true that as a slave, she had no legal right or ability to consent or not consent.  There is reason to believe that it WAS consensual.  But based on her status, could it ever be truly consensual?  All a discussion about actual facts that should be had.  That doesn't mean we're "cancelling" Thomas Jefferson.  Rather, it means that we're looking at the whole man, and the whole story.

You know, THE TRUTH.

Exactly.  I would much rather know the whole truth, even the ugly sides, than some Disneyfied version of history.  The details are fucking fascinating.

[Beau Vine 54003]

56 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I thought it was understood that the story of the Alamo is largely propagandized bullshit that we're just okay playing along with?

You really have to be a complete rube to not realize that the story of the Alamo is largely mythology...which makes it a perfect topic for the GQP.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Beau Vine

[Brisketexan 104628]

7 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

the authors reached out to Phil Collins for his thoughts on the matter, but there was no reply at all.

Also, I approve of all continuing Phil Collins/Genesis puns.  Please keep them coming.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

17 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I don’t know about that. But it turns out Jim Bowie was kind of a piece of shit.

Well, you can away with a lot of shit when you put out a Hunky Dory. 

[tantric superman 4667]

11 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

the authors reached out to Phil Collins for his thoughts on the matter, but there was no reply at all.

It would be great to understand the genesis of his theories.  Thankfully, Collins does not take a sledgehammer approach to dealing with his critics.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

Initiate Streisand Effect

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

"Don't fuck with My War!"

 

 

[Ten Bears 2479]

2 hours ago, tantric superman said:

John Wayne/Davy Crockett was a fag.

It's true you boys.

 

1 hour ago, Underdog said:

Well, The Duke did walk sorta funny.  

 

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

And his name was Marion…

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

35 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

It would be great to understand the genesis of his theories.  Thankfully, Collins does not take a sledgehammer approach to dealing with his critics.

I hope the use of sledgehammer was intentionally incorrect 

[tantric superman 4667]

8 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I hope the use of sledgehammer was intentionally incorrect 

The use of "not take a sledgehammer" was absolutely correct.

[Born to Run 6568]

It would be great to understand the genesis of his theories.  Thankfully, Collins does not take a sledgehammer approach to dealing with his critics.

This is the land of confusion...

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

[Anastasis] BOTH SIDES. [/Anastasis]

But....yes.  Thomas Jefferson is a great example.   There's a lot to put in the "admirable" column about TJ.  He was a helluva thinker, a writer, and incredibly well-read and thoughtful. He also carried on a lifelong affair with a subservient piece of property who could not meaningfully consent/not consent to his sexual advances.  Which, by the way....was a cultural norm of the time.  A repugnant, awful social norm....but a norm nonetheless.

It is true that he was boning Sally Hemmings, who was not his wife, and was his property.  And it is true that as a slave, she had no legal right or ability to consent or not consent.  There is reason to believe that it WAS consensual.  But based on her status, could it ever be truly consensual?  All a discussion about actual facts that should be had.  That doesn't mean we're "cancelling" Thomas Jefferson.  Rather, it means that we're looking at the whole man, and the whole story.

You know, THE TRUTH.

And Al Gore actually flies on jet airplanes!

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Maybe sledgehammer is some lyric of Phil Collins' but the word is associated with Peter Gabriel. And while Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins are linked, its a poor reference.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

Now how can I use the reference "it's no fun being an illegal alien" in this thread.  

[Surly Bevo 24696]

Sooo...it's all been a pack of lies?

[Brisketexan 104628]

1 minute ago, Surly Bevo said:

Sooo...it's all been a pack of lies?

I see what you did there.  I saw it with my own two eyes.

[workswithseed 2037]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I'm about to move beyond being embarrassed about this state to despising it. 

 

We must never forget why Texas is so fucking great and different from everywhere else! If the USA leads the world in self-congratulation, then by gawd Texas leads the USA in that regard.

Oddly, Abbott's action is itself a demonstration of what's exceptional about Texas now. Fucking idiots who choose corrupt power grabbers and shout yahoo when they do it.

Our state song pretty much lines out our stand on humility and circumspection:

My dad was born in Port Arthur and worked the refineries before enlisting in the Army Air Corps then going to college. He'd see a "Native Texan" bumper sticker and shake his head.

Imagine somebody putting that on their car. What kind of achievement is that?

People put Darwin fish on their cars. Get over it.

[RomaVicta 29794]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

People put Darwin fish on their cars. Get over it.

Remarkable inapt. Stunningly so.

Well done?

[workswithseed 2037]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Remarkable inapt. Stunningly so.

Well done?

That's the spirit.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

The kind of people who believe all those myths are the same type as the guy who always turns in his paper late. 

[HenryJames 65890]

 

[hpslugga 4044]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

We must never forget why Texas is so fucking great and different from everywhere else! If the USA leads the world in self-congratulation, then by gawd Texas leads the USA in that regard.

Several years ago, there was a study done that found that Americans ranked at or near dead last in the industrial world in math, but ranked #1 in confidence in math skills. We're a walking, talking, breathing example of the Dunning Kruger Effect.

12 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

People put Darwin fish on their cars. 

I'm certain you feel you've explained everything.

[Hefeweizen 5307]

I can feel the bullshit coming in the air tonight.

 

oh Lord.