Latest GOP cancel culture: revisiting the Alamo

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

24 minutes ago, Xian said:

moving it is fine, but, the date it was put up isnt completely random.   It marks the 100 year anniversary of the battle… 

 

Plus the 1930s is still considered historical. We need more public art, not less.   
 

1. It's ugly.

2. The proposal was not to get rid of it, but to move it across the plaza. 

[Goredho 17349]

This is all because Trump likes heroes that weren’t captured, isn’t it?

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2630]

31 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

1. It's ugly.

2. The proposal was not to get rid of it, but to move it across the plaza. 

1. Not a fan of “monoliths”, eh?  To each his own. 

2. Did you just skip over the first three words of my post?

Edited July 3, 2021 by Xian

[TexPx 2319]

the authors reached out to Phil Collins for his thoughts on the matter, but there was no reply at all.

He’s distracted.
There’s this girl that’s been on his mind.
All the time


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

Next someone will try to tell me that the exploits of Pecos Bill are fictional. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Pato del Muerto

[atomheartbevo 89449]

22 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Next someone will try to tell me that the exploits of Pecos Bill are fictional. 

William H. Bonney was just a misunderstood youth.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

 

[brakeman 28252]

13 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I'd only amend your fine post to say white men. We did a pretty good job of keeping white women down along with everyone else. We turned police with batons loose on them just for wanting to vote. A byproduct of white women being close to white men is that many, sadly, went full Stockholm syndrome and became Karens.

I'm white. I'm open minded. I've learned that there are things I just don't see regarding the subtle or grotesque ways the world is different for persons unlike me. I'm not malicious. I don't want to see people subjugated. Still, BLM and Me Too proved that there are things going on all the time that I do not perceive. 

What else am I missing?

I'll be (even more) tiresome and repeat that if it were possible, I'd remove white men from all positions of power for at least ten years. I'll quote fellow white man Henry Rollins yet again, white man rule has been "a poorly run carnage fest" for a long, long time.

"Yeah, well what about this bad black woman, or that murderous white woman, or that corrupt person of color?"

Something bad doesn't have to stay in place until something perfect is found to replace it. I truly believe things would be better if the white man ruling class were replaced. Today. For at least a decade.

This pathetic story about blocking a discussion of history that considers events beyond popular fable is what you get when a class of people want to tell you their footsteps are red with wholesome ketchup instead of blood. 

I pledge to not vote for any white man where there is viable woman or person of color on the ballot.

i'm there, i voted old white man because of TRUMP response to the covid. its going alright  and better than i expected. go old white man! i like your plan.

[brakeman 28252]

13 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Exactly.  I would much rather know the whole truth, even the ugly sides, than some Disneyfied version of history.  The details are fucking fascinating.

its the only way to set all of us free.

[Mole 4320]

16 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

There is no downside in Abbott forcing that talk to be cancelled.

He can’t talk, the only thing about him is the way that he walks.

[Sawbonz 27436]

3 pages and nothing about fighting against all odds? Surly is slipping 

[RomaVicta 29794]

9 hours ago, brakeman said:

its the only way to set all of us free.

An amusing note from history of the 1970s.

Jay Adkins and Skip Slyfield ran an absurdist campaign for president and vice president of student government. Among their many funny ideas was to remove Ye Shall Know the Truth and the Truth Shall Set You Free on the Tower and replace it with Money Talks.

Of course, they won the election. They got my vote.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

13 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Next someone will try to tell me that the exploits of Pecos Bill are fictional. 

I had a dog named Pecos Bill. I can assure you his exploits were not fictional.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

On 7/2/2021 at 9:30 AM, Brisketexan said:

The story of the Alamo and Texas independence is like damned near everything else: it's complicated.

It ain't all noble freedom bullshit.  But....it's also not all "we fought Mexico so we could be racist against mexicans and keep slavery."

90% of the human beings of good and decent character of a certain time.....were also racist.  Because that was THE conventional wisdom (as just one example of a belief we find loathsome today that wasn't the case 150+ years ago).  People are.....complicated.

I am a son of Texas.  I have family members with historical markers on their graves.  And even their history in the Texas borderlands is....complicated.  History has few angels, and few devils.  Instead, it's full of people, in shades of gray.

The conservative reflexive pushback against ANY discussion that doesn't start with "America/Texas is the awesomest bestest and there ain't no place awesomer bester!" is pathetic and sad.

Yes, it's an appalling fact, but a prevailing sentiment in the early 19th century and for centuries before was that people who didn't look like you weren't actually human, or were some form of subspecies, meaning an inferior one.  And the more you didn't look or act like the dominant race/culture, the more inferior you were.

While this state of affairs demands moral judgment, it was borne more of ignorance and fear than hatred.

My wife was taking a psychology class online for shits and giggles and was given a paper that posited that Darwin's teachings did quite a bit to dispel the thinking that there were "inferior humans."  I mean besides the fact that most of us think everyone else is an inferior human.  I think we're stuck with that.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

Darwin mostly gave fuel for racism because it provided "scientific" justification. Go and read the writings of our most celebrated leaders from before WWI and most of them were racist as shit. After Darwin came about they got to justify it by saying that the black man or whichever race they wanted to take a joyride on the Enola Gay over was less evolved.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Patrick and Abbott pushed this book into the Amazon top 20 books sold yesterday. 

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, Dan patrick's gonna be out of a job in 18 months and Tomlinson is gonna get a beach house out of this.  Good for Chris.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

15 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

 

Dan haz a Babz. 

[elfenix 34171]

17 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

LOL

wood.

[Underdog 28457]

2 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I had a dog named Pecos Bill. I can assure you his exploits were not fictional.

Go on... 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

The Alamo legend was a long time in creating and was crafted less by historians than Mad Men and PR types whose client was Texas as a whole. We used it to secede from the Dead Confederacy -- the attitude was "hats off to General Lee and whatnot, but why stay hitched to those losers when we have this awesome story that ends in with a resounding win?"

Yeah yeah, slavery was in the mix, but it could more plausibly be buried underneath other grievances and Santa Anna -- alternately bungling and cruel -- makes a compelling villain. 

Legends have shelf lives though; I guess it's time for a new one. 

[atomheartbevo 89449]

 

[tx 3 putt 76396]

I’m disappointed the GOP isn’t buying up copies to save the public 

[UpperWestside 6136]

Texas whenever you finally flip back to being run by Democrats from the position of governor on down, your first official order of business that day should be to move the Mexican Consulate in the city to the grounds of the Alamo. A day, a month, into perpetuity who cares. Maybe put a sign out front saying Mexico will vacate the premises when Jesus comes back. Just do it to see what happens when people who don’t understand what that makes the Alamo at that point receive an education real quick like. You want to keep playing games on the public dime you will absolutely deserve to have this happen. Let this be an FAAFO moment for a few a million people.

Edited July 3, 2021 by UpperWestside

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

 

 

On 7/2/2021 at 8:32 AM, formermav43 said:

I haven’t read the book yet either, but there was some brief discussion of it on another thread recently. Revising the mythical version of the Alamo (and the “Texas Revolution” more generally) so that there’s an understanding that slavery was one of the causes is good; the authors seemed, however, based on an interview with them, to go too far to make their idealogical point, arguing (paraphrasing) that Santa Anna was a good guy who just wanted liberal democracy to flourish if not for these white dudes in Texas (ignoring that multiple other Mexican states were in rebellion against his tyranny).

At any rate, there should be free and open discussion of scholarly ideas without politicians getting involved.

 

This is NOT what the book says.

 

 

the book summarized in one song:

 

 

 

[CooterBrown 17913]

We should all order a couple of copies to be delivered to your local middle and high school libraries.

[Gil Bang 25898]

On 7/2/2021 at 8:40 AM, Ten Bears said:

 

 

"And, he played football at USC"-@sbbruin prolly. 

[formermav43 4599]

2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

 

This is NOT what the book says.

 

 

the book summarized in one song:

 

 

 

That may not be what the book says, but it is what the authors said in an interview.

[Updawg 2261]

We should all order a couple of copies to be delivered to your local middle and high school libraries.

There will be a special session to ban this book

[tx 3 putt 76396]

it's only a matter of time before we see good old fashion book burning !

 

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20344]

 

[HornPhD 1364]

6 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

 

This is NOT what the book says.

 

 

the book summarized in one song:

 

 

 

“I haven’t read the book yet either”

Not a strong lead statement for an argument against a book

 

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

 

Duel of Eagles is one great long piss from a very great height on the legend...Dude had to move to Colorado after he wrote that. 

[formermav43 4599]

3 hours ago, HornPhD said:

“I haven’t read the book yet either”

Not a strong lead statement for an argument against a book

 

 

Which is why it wasn’t an argument against the book.

[Bateshorn 9905]

21 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes, it's an appalling fact, but a prevailing sentiment in the early 19th century and for centuries before was that people who didn't look like you weren't actually human, or were some form of subspecies, meaning an inferior one.  And the more you didn't look or act like the dominant race/culture, the more inferior you were.

While this state of affairs demands moral judgment, it was borne more of ignorance and fear than hatred.

My wife was taking a psychology class online for shits and giggles and was given a paper that posited that Darwin's teachings did quite a bit to dispel the thinking that there were "inferior humans."  I mean besides the fact that most of us think everyone else is an inferior human.  I think we're stuck with that.

You should read Stamped From the Beginning by Ibrahim X. Kendi. Propaganda about the differences between the races starts almost from the moment  Portuguese traders return from their first trips down the West African coast in the Middle Ages and happens in a very interesting coincidence as the Arab slave trade in Eastern European Slavs begins to be looked at askance by the Church. 

 

While many racist ideas were born of ignorance and fear, they were absolutely also based on intentional hatred and a desire to perpetuate ownership of human chattel.  
 

The separate species debate raged well into the 20th century. Among serious Ph.D scientists, not just knuckle dragging southern sheriffs.  

Edited July 4, 2021 by Bateshorn

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

The separate species debate raged well into the 20th century. Among serious Ph.D scientists

Interesting. Never given it any thought, but when you consider the seemingly small differences that science uses to decide that a member of a genus or family needs to be a separate species, the differences between groups of humans that developed differently (European, African, Native American, East Asian, whatever) seems to qualify. 
 

like lion, tiger, puma, leopard. They didn’t stop at big cat, they said they look a little different and have different habitats so they are different species. 
 

probably a relic of biologists and/or paleontologists wanting to have “discovered” a new species, so they parse things to defend themselves. 
 

but when the same logic is applied to the homo genus, it looks…not great. 

[Bateshorn 9905]

18 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Interesting. Never given it any thought, but when you consider the seemingly small differences that science uses to decide that a member of a genus or family needs to be a separate species, the differences between groups of humans that developed differently (European, African, Native American, East Asian, whatever) seems to qualify. 
 

like lion, tiger, puma, leopard. They didn’t stop at big cat, they said they look a little different and have different habitats so they are different species. 
 

probably a relic of biologists and/or paleontologists wanting to have “discovered” a new species, so they parse things to defend themselves. 
 

but when the same logic is applied to the homo genus, it looks…not great. 

It’s also a lot easier to justify slavery and Jim Crow when you considered the people’s subjugated to be a different, lesser species. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

21 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Interesting. Never given it any thought, but when you consider the seemingly small differences that science uses to decide that a member of a genus or family needs to be a separate species, the differences between groups of humans that developed differently (European, African, Native American, East Asian, whatever) seems to qualify. 
 

like lion, tiger, puma, leopard. They didn’t stop at big cat, they said they look a little different and have different habitats so they are different species. 
 

probably a relic of biologists and/or paleontologists wanting to have “discovered” a new species, so they parse things to defend themselves. 
 

but when the same logic is applied to the homo genus, it looks…not great. 

Some scientists like to seperate out species that are a lot closer than lions, tigers, and pumas. Where to draw the line between species is a constant scientific debate, and it is certainly possible to argue that different groups of humans are sufficiently different to classify as seperate species, but almost every instance of that argument is based in and used as justification for racism. 

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

4 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

It’s also a lot easier to justify slavery and Jim Crow when you considered the people’s subjugated to be a different, lesser species. 

Different doesn’t imply lesser. That connection is made by people looking for a reason to make it. 

[Bateshorn 9905]

50 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Different doesn’t imply lesser. That connection is made by people looking for a reason to make it. 

The historical conversation was always in the context of either different in the sense of being an animal no different than another draft animal, and thus to be treated as such, or has a lesser form of human, and thus incapable of either self determination or full agency.  Even the leading abolitionists (other than probably Thaddeus Stevens) often viewed Black people either genetically or culturally incapable of full agency. 
 

There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of 19th century papers presented in front of AAAS or the Royal Society claiming to definitely rank humans according to race as seen through the scientific method. 
 

Tbh, it was the main branch of study for early Anthropology societies.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Bateshorn

[Surly Bevo 24696]

9 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

 

Just a thought a quick check says it's 416 pages and Texas History is taught in 4th and 7th grade....it ain't gonna be required reading at those ages.