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Retirement Homes - Independent Living to the Full Enchilada

Dbeasy

By Dbeasy
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Dbeasy

Dbeasy 15084

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We are looking for retirement homes for an aging parent who is still able to live independently. We looked at Longhorn Village and found it to be really nice, insanely expensive, and with complicated agreements.  Has anyone navigated retirement homes? It would be great to hear your experience and perspective. Probably also need a lawyer to review the agreements?

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Dbeasy

Dbeasy 15084

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46 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

What’s the monthly cost at Longhorn Village for a one bedroom apartment?

Asking for some old asshole.

You buy an apartment for $800k, pay $6.5k per month, then when you leave you get 90% of the $800k back. And the $6.5k fee goes up every year 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17654

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

You buy an apartment for $800k, pay $6.5k per month, then when you "leave" your family gets nothing of the $800k back. And the $6.5k fee goes up every year 

Fixed it for you. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 77335

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1 minute ago, CooterBrown said:


Having seen the small town facility my grandmothers were in, it’s more humane to suffocate your relative with a pillow.

 

we went with a smaller town facility, 20 mins away for an aunt and couldn't have been happier. they honestly helped add time to her short life. 

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5575

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In the past 3 years we have movedmy parents from their own home into senior living, then into assisted living, my dad passed so we moved my mom into a smaller studio apartment at assisted living, and now she's in medium care for people with dementia.

 

This is in a much smaller town, so the cost is $4,200 a month for fully assisted living. They do struggle to keep fully staffed which really means that nursing aides, and kitchen staff are all fairly new. Thankfully the state regulations now allow visits again, so my brothers and I are there at least twice a week. I think it is very important that you know the people in the facility, and they know you. I talked to the facility manager, and the nursing manager at least every other week either about my mother's care or just to see how things are going at the facility.

Good luck, there are no easy answers, and this is never an easy transition to make.

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52-80

52-80 19226

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12 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

You buy an apartment for $800k, pay $6.5k per month, then when you leave you get 90% of the $800k back. And the $6.5k fee goes up every year 

Wat

 

i should build a retirement community busines 

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40874

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15 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

You buy an apartment for $800k, pay $6.5k per month, then when you leave you get 90% of the $800k back. And the $6.5k fee goes up every year 

Brings to mind a certain Chinese phrase.... used here at Surly now & then.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31529

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15 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

You buy an apartment for $800k, pay $6.5k per month, then when you leave you get 90% of the $800k back. And the $6.5k fee goes up every year 

Fcuk.

You should be able to find an independent/assisted living without all those "add ons."  That's similar to Edgemere in Dallas, which is supposed to be a "one stop shop" for eldercare, that is independent>assisted>memory care>skilled nursing.  And part of the agreement there, 10 or so years ago, was that they could use the deposit if ongoing funds ran out and it was non-recourse after that.

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Dbeasy

Dbeasy 15084

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33 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Fcuk.

You should be able to find an independent/assisted living without all those "add ons."  That's similar to Edgemere in Dallas, which is supposed to be a "one stop shop" for eldercare, that is independent>assisted>memory care>skilled nursing.  And part of the agreement there, 10 or so years ago, was that they could use the deposit if ongoing funds ran out and it was non-recourse after that.

That’s what I’m really worried about. Not getting the 90% back. 

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52-80

52-80 19226

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im still dumbfounded.  so basically this business gets a free 800k loan up front, a guaranteed 80k of annual cash flow on top, and then they keep 10% of the principal on the tail end? 

 

in return you get occupancy in a Residence Inn / 150k-condo type place and access to a 30k-salaried full time caregiver?  holy fucking hell.

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14600

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42 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

im still dumbfounded.  so basically this business gets a free 800k loan up front, a guaranteed 80k of annual cash flow on top, and then they keep 10% of the principal on the tail end? 

 

in return you get occupancy in a Residence Inn / 150k-condo type place and access to a 30k-salaried full time caregiver?  holy fucking hell.

And there is sometimes a waiting list to get in….

In some parts of the country, they can’t build these high end places fast enough.

Edited by Aqua Buddha
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Redneck Mutha

Redneck Mutha 8007

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On 7/3/2021 at 7:58 PM, CooterBrown said:


Having seen the small town facility my grandmothers were in, it’s more humane to suffocate your relative with a pillow.

As my wife keeps talking about my MIL and also my mom coming to live with us for care sometime in the next 5-15 years, I need to look into this pillow suffocation plan for myself.

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troph

troph 24905

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we are in the same boat with my - essentially FIL.  talking to lawyers in the next few weeks.  his estate is too big to not worry and to small to say fuck it we will just pay out of pocket.  problem is he took the military pension for his life not for hers so his pension drops when he goes to the great recliner in the sky.  now the sisters are all super worried.  so trying to do some estate planning, benefit analysis and decide what kind of assisted living he needs (she does  not).  all while he's in bed in rehab without the use of his left side of his body. 

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Dbeasy

Dbeasy 15084

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I read the contract today and it’s surprisingly easy to read. As far as I can tell the biggest risk is that your upfront payment is just that, and does not tie to the real estate. You are a unsecured creditor so if they eff up financially you are hosed. 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13521

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I can understand retirement care being expensive. If you’re retired and have some combo of social security, annuity payments or pension, why not spend 80-90% of it on your care. You feel that monthly amount is guaranteed for life so outside of a few misc expenses, what else do you need the money for.

but I imagine some grown children don’t like mom and dad paying 800k upfront and knowing that only 90% of that is coming back in the estate. The other alternative is that the children take care of mom and dad to retain that 10% for the estate.

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troph

troph 24905

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33 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I can understand retirement care being expensive. If you’re retired and have some combo of social security, annuity payments or pension, why not spend 80-90% of it on your care. You feel that monthly amount is guaranteed for life so outside of a few misc expenses, what else do you need the money for.

but I imagine some grown children don’t like mom and dad paying 800k upfront and knowing that only 90% of that is coming back in the estate. The other alternative is that the children take care of mom and dad to retain that 10% for the estate.

good luck with that for 90% of the elderly population.  it's really a function of if you have little to nothing, medicaid is there, if you have a ton of money then you can just pay the $100K per year or so it costs for care, but if you have $500,000 - $1,500,000 or so in assets, the care cost component takes a huge cut out of the estate.  For some folks that's less about the next generation or the kids, it's about the surviving spouse who may be very healthy and have 10+ years left. 

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troph

troph 24905

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2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

the norse people solved this problem many centuries ago

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ättestupa

 

watching this process unfold, there is a place for checking out early. who wants to lay in bed at a shitty rehab facility with the best case scenario being a wheel chair and assisted living/full time care with your wife living in another place because she's still able to live completely independently.

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BottleRocket

BottleRocket 647

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My parents live in one of these facilities.  It's a competitor to Longhorn.  They have the same deal - initial $800k deposit, 90% refund, and a monthly rent.  They really like it.  A big concern, as mentioned above, is solvency/bankruptcy of the parent company.  The facility is 5 star and the food is great.  It's a lot like resort living.  They do raise the "rent" every year by 1-2% for "inflation".  Dad is paying the monthly rents through a military pension, university pension, and social security.  So when he passes my mother will paying her part with true retirement savings.  Dad's joke is that if he is on life support, don't unplug him because he's paying the bills as long as he is alive.  At first I thought he was joking but I realize now he's right.

 

The $800k is nothing more than a security deposit in case the payer runs out of money for the monthly bill and they will take the rent from that.  

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Wally Fairway

Wally Fairway 5575

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1 hour ago, BottleRocket said:

The $800k is nothing more than a security deposit in case the payer runs out of money for the monthly bill and they will take the rent from that.  

Quick question, as I read through this. The $800k seems like a way to keep the poor's out, or is it actually a way to allow help residents qualify for medicare (making them look poor) and allow the family to get back $720k from the estate after passing but getting the government help pay for their care?

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troph

troph 24905

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2 hours ago, Larry T. Spider said:

There may be more to it, but I just thought it was an easy way to make an extra 35k in interest per unit per year. They pay 50k a year in rent but you have to provide a lot of services. The investment income is a lot easier. Then they keep 10% of it at the end. 

I'm sure there is interest income for the owner/operator of the facility.  I suspect they have a metric ton of cash in the bank that belongs to these clients.

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BottleRocket

BottleRocket 647

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Quick question, as I read through this. The $800k seems like a way to keep the poor's out, or is it actually a way to allow help residents qualify for medicare (making them look poor) and allow the family to get back $720k from the estate after passing but getting the government help pay for their care?

The way I understand it, it has something to do with a Texas law regarding operator’s being unable to evict elderly from their care based on inability to pay. So in effect the deposit will be used for payment in the case the ‘renter’ becomes unable to pay.
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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31529

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12 minutes ago, BottleRocket said:


The way I understand it, it has something to do with a Texas law regarding operator’s being unable to evict elderly from their care based on inability to pay. So in effect the deposit will be used for payment in the case the ‘renter’ becomes unable to pay.

Whether it's actually a law or not, it's a bad look.

AFAIK, and maybe you can confirm, but the places like this tend to offer, as mentioned above, 65-death care, meaning all levels.  And Edgemere's original deal, that may have changed, was that there was no recourse against the estate or family if payment stopped and the deposit did not cover services to death.  I believe Edgemere did not take any part of the deposit if it wasn't applied to rent or services.

The other idea was that a couple or widow(er) moving in would have just sold a house and have "nothing better to do" (ha) with the proceeds than plow it into life care for the duration.

Edgemere was pretty nice.  The apartments were spacious and quiet and they had several dining options, from a fancy dining room with decent food and a fairly ambitious menu, to casual places, to sandwich type shops.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13521

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I realize the 800k plus 6k per month isn’t an option for many but sounds like a decent deal if you really like the retirement community. If selling your home gets you somewhat close to 800k and you collect social security, you might only need 1.5 or 2m in retirement funds to easily cover the monthly payment. 

I completely understand that the potential heirs aren’t a fan of the locked up 800k decreasing in value but who cares what they think. It’s not their money. Nothing worse than kids waiting for their inheritance.

If the 800k is like a security deposit that even the resident can pull out if they want to move, i would be damn sure I understand how that is protected against investing mistakes. There must be some disclosure of how they are ensuring (insuring?) they don’t lose it.

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troph

troph 24905

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7 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I realize the 800k plus 6k per month isn’t an option for many but sounds like a decent deal if you really like the retirement community. If selling your home gets you somewhat close to 800k and you collect social security, you might only need 1.5 or 2m in retirement funds to easily cover the monthly payment. 

I completely understand that the potential heirs aren’t a fan of the locked up 800k decreasing in value but who cares what they think. It’s not their money. Nothing worse than kids waiting for their inheritance.

If the 800k is like a security deposit that even the resident can pull out if they want to move, i would be damn sure I understand how that is protected against investing mistakes. There must be some disclosure of how they are ensuring (insuring?) they don’t lose it.

$3m net worth puts a 78 year old in the top 5% of net worth. Not unobtainable or unrealistic for a decent number of folks but no where close to any sizable majority of 78 year olds.  You’re right who cares about the heirs. Even still often not doable.  And worse when you reach for it and leave a surviving spouse without enough to make it.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13521

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3 minutes ago, troph said:

$3m net worth puts a 78 year old in the top 5% of net worth. Not unobtainable or unrealistic for a decent number of folks but no where close to any sizable majority of 78 year olds.  You’re right who cares about the heirs. Even still often not doable.  And worse when you reach for it and leave a surviving spouse without enough to make it.

Agree but 5% is still 1 out of 20 people and they need to live somewhere. Why not live somewhere that you can enjoy the money you earned throughout your life.

Personally I would rather be at my home, and pay someone to help out as opposed to being in a retirement community. At least until I couldn’t take care of myself.

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40874

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19 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Agree but 5% is still 1 out of 20 people and they need to live somewhere. Why not live somewhere that you can enjoy the money you earned throughout your life.

Personally I would rather be at my home, and pay someone to help out as opposed to being in a retirement community. At least until I couldn’t take care of myself.

Easier for an old guy to get laid at a retirement home.

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Goredho

Goredho 17413

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My mom is at Atria Arboretum and loved it pre-pandemic, at about $6000 a month with lots of organized activities, almost like a cruise ship.  No $800000 buy in.  They lowered prices to $4500 during the pandemic since they couldn’t offer the activities and they haven’t gone back up, but I expect them to now that they are offering all the bells and whistles again.  My mom is nearing the end of her ability to live independently, though, so she may not be there much longer.

The one thing I wish we/she had weighed more heavily are multiple levels of care.  Places where she could transition from independent living to assisted living to memory care.  She is terrified of moving to assisted living, saying goodbye to friends and having to assimilate somewhere comepletely new.

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Reagan1k

Reagan1k 3024

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Been down this road.....

At least in the one I looked at, the buy-in option was only those who wanted to start in what was considered Independent Living.

You sell your house and "buy" a condo/townhouse on the property.  You live on site, have access to all the meals, programs, etc., for a monthly fee, but aren't using the care services.  Basically an all inclusive retirement community.  Cleaning, lawncare, maintenance etc. is all taken care of.  Simplifies life, but you still have your own place, own car, and full independence.

If and when you need assisted living, you either a) stay in that townhouse/condo and pay an increased fee for help to come in, or b) move out of the townhouse/condo and into the actual facility and live in a pod with assistance on hand (higher monthly fee)

Then you would transition from there to skilled nursing / nursing home care in a hospital room setting if it progresses that far.

The Independent Living option is for those who want to have their own place, don't need any care, but want the convenience of all the services.  They're the ones who "buy-in" and then resell at some guaranteed price point. 

Those who come to the facility directly into assisted living and or skilled care don't do the buy-in / re-sell, and simply pay the monthly cost of whatever care level they require.

The buy in / buy out is sort of like a required put option on the condo when you move, die, or go into the main facility for assisted and skilled nursing.

I know a widower in his early 70's who did this.  Sold his house, got an Independent Living Condo and knows he won't ever have to move again.  Still travels a bunch, and when he is gone he doesn't have to worry about anything.  Zero maintenance, doesn't have to worry about a house, maid, lawn guy when he's not there.  When he's there, he's free to do whatever he wants, has everything he needs, none of the ownership hassles, and uses the amenities as he choses.

Edited by Reagan1k
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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

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On 7/7/2021 at 6:24 PM, Armybrat said:

Easier for an old guy to get laid at a retirement home.

Ha ha.  I just googled Edgemere and it's pretty clear they are marketing to the active 80 year old bachelor looking to get some action.  This is the photo on the home page.

You'd dig it the most, AB.

 home-hero-2.jpg

1, 1, 3

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