Obergefell v. Hodges, six years later.

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

1 minute ago, Michael Knight said:

The queers married and Trump got elected, coincidence?

And New Orleans got hit by Katrina!

[Brisketexan 104628]

Six years.  Six long years of my marriage being meaningless.

Your wife says it’s been much longer.

['stache 21774]

On 7/5/2021 at 10:57 PM, TheRealRonWeaver? said:

I can’t believe it’s been six years and I’m still not gay married. I thought it was going to be shoved down my throat by now.

Speak for yourself. These last six years have been a fucking nightmare. Every night all these homosexuals keep sucking my cock. Thanks Obama.

[pyrohornIII 4809]

On 7/5/2021 at 12:36 PM, Walden Ponderer said:

My Facebook feed has a lot of memories for this date six years ago; see, in the aftermath of Obergefell v. Hodges, the Ponderer crew packed up and headed to Austin to assist with wedding overflow. We met fellow activists in one of the Judge's quarters down at the Travis County courthouse, and I should have known the whole event would be coordinated by Glenn Maxey. If you've never met Glenn, you're missing out. Texan through and through, and gayer than a $3 bill. Funniest person I think I've ever met.

Anyway, we shepherded around people (including an awful lot of olds, who were dying for their lifetime partnerships to be legalized before they snuffed it) and even escorted folk down to the Capitol grounds, which seemed like an auspicious place for their no-planning-involved vows to be exchanged.

A lot of good memories there. Anyway, the Facebook memories got me curious about long term effects of the decision. There are several retrospectives, but I'll just share from the easiest to quote, even though it's a year old now:

The Economic Impact of Marriage Equality Five Years After Obergefell v. Hodges

The immediate impact on economic impact is too pat, I think. There's lots of secondary impacts related to additional economic stability afforded by committed relationships. And there has undoubtedly also been a boost to mental health that means a negative economic impact has been lessened. Always hard to judge that sort of thing.

But anyway, love has been love has been love for six years now. My how time flies. I can't wait to see this sort of retrospective on pot legalization.

Pos rep for Glenn Maxey comment.  He "retired" or is about to.

On 7/5/2021 at 10:57 PM, TheRealRonWeaver? said:

I can’t believe it’s been six years and I’m still not gay married. I thought it was going to be shoved down my throat by now.

ISWYDT. 

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

On 7/5/2021 at 4:29 PM, Walden Ponderer said:

I certainly get that. On the other hand, marriage is essentially an economic contract between two people. Yes, there is a huge emotional component, but it's the economic principles involved that define the legal approaches to marriage, regardless of sexual orientation.

Yeah, and I can tell you a few things about my marriage specifically.  #1.  We went through 12 long years, most of which my now-husband was not allowed to work because we weren't allowed to get married, so economically, getting married was fucking huge from us.  Once he was allowed to work as well, suddenly we could plan for the future, we could put aside money for retirement, we could think about a life with vacations and potentially starting a business, and all the other things that were just not a possibility before the laws were changed.

It wasn't all bad before hand though.  I was a lower level project manager for a computer company making jack shit when we got together, and him not being able to work forced me to actually apply myself and grow my career, because I got tired of wondering monthly whether we were going to be able to pay all of our bills if we decided to go out for dinner once a month.  He also wound up with 2 American degrees, because the only way we could keep him here was to put him in school.

And it hasn't been all good since we got married either.  We're still paying for those 2 American degrees and will be for awhile.

All in all though, the financial stability of not having to worry that missing a paycheck would be a catastrophe that would be difficult to overcome, the emotional stability we have because we can make our own choices about our lives now, the comfort that we take in knowing that if something happened to one of us, the other could make decisions without having to carry around lawyer drafted paperwork everywhere we go, those things have been invaluable.  

 

On 7/7/2021 at 11:32 PM, Harrison Bergeron said:

I'm new here, but I get the sense that this forum tends to lean heavily snowflake, so I do not want to ruffle any panties. I honestly could give two shits about gay marriage. But I am a science and data guy. Is there any data that quantifies marked improvements in quality of life post Oberfell? Again, you ladies keep your daggers in the curing solution  - I am just wondering if this was just a culture war distraction or if there is quantifiable and demonstrable data that shows this made QOL improvements.

 

I'm going to pretend like you are being honest in your question and the inflammatory parts are just your immature attempt to appear to be cool....

There are hundreds and hundreds of data points that quantify the marked improvements in quality of life.  I have lived with those marked improvements daily since the Windsor decision.  

In my specific case:

1.  Financial security - being allowed to be a 2 income household means we aren't living paycheck to paycheck

2.  Emotional security - the very fact we no longer have carry around powers of attorney so that we could go wave them in the face of some hospital administrator if one of us was incapacitated and hospitalized has been bigger than you'd think.  Imagine going on vacation and an emergency happens and the hospital wouldn't let you see your loved one because of no defined legal arrangement.  That happened routinely before Windsor and Obergefell. That meant that gay couples had to carry paperwork with them every time they left town just in case, or risk not being able to make decisions about their significant other.  

3. Mental stability - we no longer have to spend all of our days obsessing over the ins and outs of what could happen because of the whims of elected officials who are feeling some heat from their right flank, and therefore veer off to attack us.  The amount of brain power we expended just worrying about that can now be put to better use, and I can tell you it's a loss less taxing to support other groups in the same boat and to work with them to get out of that attack cycle than it is to be the person that is getting attacked directly.  

I'm sure I could go on and on, but I think I've probably already given you more than you actually cared to read so I'll leave it here for now. 

To sum up, I will always be thankful for Edie Windsor and Jim Obergefell for their willingness to walk the paths they walked so the rest of us would be able to live a life much closer to free than most of us ever dreamed would be possible. 

I also won't forget you oldtimes that go back to the Hornfans days, because while most of you were on the Republican side of the fence back then on this issue, you were almost all willing to listen to the arguments and to rethink your conclusions.  Y'all being willing to entertain the arguments made me a better person, helped me articulate what I wanted in a clearer way, which paid dividends in my life well beyond this message board.  I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for you group of assholes, so thank you too.

['stache 21774]

Thanks for sharing, even knowing that it was not a serious question. There are numerous studies that can be found with simple google searches on quality of life for LGBTQ people after marriage equality. He didn't care to even do a simple search, just throw shit at the subject, as clearly evidenced by his lead-in and ending lines. He is every bit the bitchass "snowflake" he pretends others are to him.

 

[Incredulity 11555]

44 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

#1.  We went through 12 long years, most of which my now-husband was not allowed to work because we weren't allowed to get married,

Why wasn’t your husband allowed to work prior to your marriage?

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

8 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Why wasn’t your husband allowed to work prior to your marriage?

Because he was not born in the United States. We had finally, a year before the rulings, gotten him through a masters degree so he had an H-1B visa, so he could've worked for 5 more years before that expired, but the only way he was going to get a green card was to get that employer to go through the massive expense of sponsoring him (which frankly they couldn't afford, and by law we wouldn't have been allowed to help them pay for) or for him to marry a citizen.  

[troph 24563]

1 hour ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

 

I also won't forget you oldtimes that go back to the Hornfans days, because while most of you were on the Republican side of the fence back then on this issue, you were almost all willing to listen to the arguments and to rethink your conclusions.  Y'all being willing to entertain the arguments made me a better person, helped me articulate what I wanted in a clearer way, which paid dividends in my life well beyond this message board.  I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for you group of assholes, so thank you too.

you were actually the primary reason I decided to come out on this board when I did, you once told me you were very loud about being gay here because at that time you might be the only person someone on these boards would know is gay and that it might make a difference.  I watched minds change.  It worked.  I decided I owed it to my brothers and sisters to do the same. minds change. it works.  not all me by any stretch but being out and visible matters.  thank you for your example.  I mean it.

[Incredulity 11555]

2 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Because he was not born in the United States. We had finally, a year before the rulings, gotten him through a masters degree so he had an H-1B visa, so he could've worked for 5 more years before that expired, but the only way he was going to get a green card was to get that employer to go through the massive expense of sponsoring him (which frankly they couldn't afford, and by law we wouldn't have been allowed to help them pay for) or for him to marry a citizen.  

I see that now referenced in your post.  
 

I should have kept reading.  Just wasn’t making that connection.

 

Not for nothing but I have a cousin who married a Costa Rican(hetro) and that was no small ordeal to get her citizenship even though they were marrying.  Not sure if you all had any of that as well, but I believe my Aunt and Uncle had to “guarantee” she wouldn’t claim certain social benefits for some amount of time.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

7 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

I see that now referenced in your post.  
 

I should have kept reading.  Just wasn’t making that connection.

 

Not for nothing but I have a cousin who married a Costa Rican(hetro) and that was no small ordeal to get her citizenship even though they were marrying.  Not sure if you all had any of that as well, but I believe my Aunt and Uncle had to “guarantee” she wouldn’t claim certain social benefits for some amount of time.

Yup, once married we had to go through all that as well, and it was a giant pain in the ass.  I have a very large binder sitting in my closet that we used to prove we were in a real relationship when we were required to go in person to an immigration office to be interviewed for the green card, and another ream of paperwork beside that we had to send in to prove we were in a real relationship 2 years later to get the conditions removed. And when I say a ream, I mean a ream.  We spent $60 to make copies of all of it so in case it got lost in transit we wouldn't have to start from scratch on building the case again. We haven't gone through the nightmare of citizenship yet, so that one I can't speak to.  And by the way, all we were looking for was the same change to go through those nightmare processes as every other married couple, so my comments about the shittiness of that process are more general in nature, and related to our fucked up immigration laws in general, and not how those laws were used to make it harder for us as a gay couple, post marriage, to get a green card.  It all felt pretty easy at the time, mainly because we were just so ecstatic we were finally allowed to do it, all the hurdles felt like speed bumps.

[Brisketexan 104628]

I'm going to pretend like you are being honest in your question and the inflammatory parts are just your immature attempt to appear to be cool....
There are hundreds and hundreds of data points that quantify the marked improvements in quality of life.  I have lived with those marked improvements daily since the Windsor decision.  
In my specific case:
1.  Financial security - being allowed to be a 2 income household means we aren't living paycheck to paycheck
2.  Emotional security - the very fact we no longer have carry around powers of attorney so that we could go wave them in the face of some hospital administrator if one of us was incapacitated and hospitalized has been bigger than you'd think.  Imagine going on vacation and an emergency happens and the hospital wouldn't let you see your loved one because of no defined legal arrangement.  That happened routinely before Windsor and Obergefell. That meant that gay couples had to carry paperwork with them every time they left town just in case, or risk not being able to make decisions about their significant other.  
3. Mental stability - we no longer have to spend all of our days obsessing over the ins and outs of what could happen because of the whims of elected officials who are feeling some heat from their right flank, and therefore veer off to attack us.  The amount of brain power we expended just worrying about that can now be put to better use, and I can tell you it's a loss less taxing to support other groups in the same boat and to work with them to get out of that attack cycle than it is to be the person that is getting attacked directly.  
I'm sure I could go on and on, but I think I've probably already given you more than you actually cared to read so I'll leave it here for now. 
To sum up, I will always be thankful for Edie Windsor and Jim Obergefell for their willingness to walk the paths they walked so the rest of us would be able to live a life much closer to free than most of us ever dreamed would be possible. 
I also won't forget you oldtimes that go back to the Hornfans days, because while most of you were on the Republican side of the fence back then on this issue, you were almost all willing to listen to the arguments and to rethink your conclusions.  Y'all being willing to entertain the arguments made me a better person, helped me articulate what I wanted in a clearer way, which paid dividends in my life well beyond this message board.  I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for you group of assholes, so thank you too.

Your thoughtful conversation was one of the things that ultimately persuaded me to support same self marriage with no half measures. Being an example of our fellow humans, living a life well-lived, but deprived of something so basic and fair, was a stark example.

[conVINCEd 21468]

On 7/9/2021 at 3:28 PM, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Yeah, and I can tell you a few things about my marriage specifically.  #1.  We went through 12 long years, most of which my now-husband was not allowed to work because we weren't allowed to get married, so economically, getting married was fucking huge from us.  Once he was allowed to work as well, suddenly we could plan for the future, we could put aside money for retirement, we could think about a life with vacations and potentially starting a business, and all the other things that were just not a possibility before the laws were changed.

It wasn't all bad before hand though.  I was a lower level project manager for a computer company making jack shit when we got together, and him not being able to work forced me to actually apply myself and grow my career, because I got tired of wondering monthly whether we were going to be able to pay all of our bills if we decided to go out for dinner once a month.  He also wound up with 2 American degrees, because the only way we could keep him here was to put him in school.

And it hasn't been all good since we got married either.  We're still paying for those 2 American degrees and will be for awhile.

All in all though, the financial stability of not having to worry that missing a paycheck would be a catastrophe that would be difficult to overcome, the emotional stability we have because we can make our own choices about our lives now, the comfort that we take in knowing that if something happened to one of us, the other could make decisions without having to carry around lawyer drafted paperwork everywhere we go, those things have been invaluable.  

 

I'm going to pretend like you are being honest in your question and the inflammatory parts are just your immature attempt to appear to be cool....

There are hundreds and hundreds of data points that quantify the marked improvements in quality of life.  I have lived with those marked improvements daily since the Windsor decision.  

In my specific case:

1.  Financial security - being allowed to be a 2 income household means we aren't living paycheck to paycheck

2.  Emotional security - the very fact we no longer have carry around powers of attorney so that we could go wave them in the face of some hospital administrator if one of us was incapacitated and hospitalized has been bigger than you'd think.  Imagine going on vacation and an emergency happens and the hospital wouldn't let you see your loved one because of no defined legal arrangement.  That happened routinely before Windsor and Obergefell. That meant that gay couples had to carry paperwork with them every time they left town just in case, or risk not being able to make decisions about their significant other.  

3. Mental stability - we no longer have to spend all of our days obsessing over the ins and outs of what could happen because of the whims of elected officials who are feeling some heat from their right flank, and therefore veer off to attack us.  The amount of brain power we expended just worrying about that can now be put to better use, and I can tell you it's a loss less taxing to support other groups in the same boat and to work with them to get out of that attack cycle than it is to be the person that is getting attacked directly.  

I'm sure I could go on and on, but I think I've probably already given you more than you actually cared to read so I'll leave it here for now. 

To sum up, I will always be thankful for Edie Windsor and Jim Obergefell for their willingness to walk the paths they walked so the rest of us would be able to live a life much closer to free than most of us ever dreamed would be possible. 

I also won't forget you oldtimes that go back to the Hornfans days, because while most of you were on the Republican side of the fence back then on this issue, you were almost all willing to listen to the arguments and to rethink your conclusions.  Y'all being willing to entertain the arguments made me a better person, helped me articulate what I wanted in a clearer way, which paid dividends in my life well beyond this message board.  I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for you group of assholes, so thank you too.

I mostly lurked back in the Hornfans days, and I don’t know that you changed my mind, but you got me to where I was probably headed anyway a little quicker.

[TexLonghorn 5593]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

…ultimately persuaded me to support same self marriage…

We were warned that would happen!  Next stop: wanting to marry the furniture!

Edited July 11, 2021 by TexLonghorn

[Bullneck 18987]

On 7/8/2021 at 11:11 PM, Harrison Bergeron said:

You guys pretty much proved my point.

Keep posting.  I don't want to have to go looking for you.

[Gil Bang 25898]

On 7/5/2021 at 2:17 PM, Brisketexan said:

But, counterpoint: letting the queers marry each other totally destroyed civilization.  So, you know, there's that.

I'm disappointed that after all this time, I haven't been able to marry my newfoundland.     Rush told me that once fags got married, we could marry animals shortly after. 

[TexLonghorn 5593]

I think Rush said that America would allow same-sex marriage “over his dead body”.  It was a good trade.

[hayden_horn 11360]

seriously though.

i think some of those bad faith gay marriage arguments were illustrative of how far the republicans would go to hate on people. think back on that. i want someone to defend those arguments that were made by laph and some of the other right wing brigade about gay marriage. i wish we had some accountability for that bullshit.

think about how absurd those were, and then try to apply that filter to today's right wing arguments, and i think we can start to understand that we (the non right wing, not necessarily the left wing) are engaging with people who really just are not concerned with being serious. it's not at all about serious. when you look at the reasons why not, it's fucking ridiculous.  well, it will ruin my marriage. wait, no it didn't. it will cause brothers to marry sisters. wait, no it didn't. it'll make me want to marry a goat. wait, no it didn't. all these were absurd on their face. the only one of those that was remotely true is the concerning porn step-bro, step-sis, step-mom, step-dad thing which i'll never understand. but that's not playing out in society. it's about populism and stirring up hate as support. the cruelty is the point. 

and when you look at it that way, it's like looking into a black fucking hole. i hate it. i thought i was a part of that once. now that i can see things with my eyes open, i think i can see it was always about hate and not compassion. welfare moms. global warming. gay marriage. always against something that can help humanity. always something to hate.

ugh.