Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[Superhero 8832]

On 8/12/2021 at 11:54 AM, Brisketexan said:

I mean, the VN era even had a better soundtrack and shit.  Dammit.

Doors vs Godsmack.

[UDontKnow 10447]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Kind of seemed to me that we were never serious about fighting the Taliban and instead it seems we were focused on trying to make a man’s hopes come true instead of facing reality.

Yes we should have attacked Afghanistan. Not dicked around and tried to build a modern society there. If they wanted it, they would have built it themselves. Our attacks should have been with a goal in mind that was based on reality.

How is the Taliban getting food, gas, ammo, and money?

What for? bin Laden wasn't in Afghanistan. He was in the place where the Taliban was created and getting food, gas, ammo, and American money.

Since JFK, America had been fucking up by allying themselves with the wrong nation in South Asia. The nation whose motto has been terrorism in the name of their Islamic Republic since their inception. The nation which really isn't a nation and is full of regions and tribes that are not truly united with each other (hello Balochistan, Sindh, Northwest Frontier Province, Gilgit-Baltistan, and yes even illegally occupied Kashmir).

Edited August 14, 2021 by UDontKnow

[InkaUtexas 26018]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

I would assume the Russians. 

Maybe, would go in line with some of the ISIS shit. 

Well going to have a last drink and hope there is another Massoud in the making. My bet would be on Gen. Sami 

 

[52-80 19205]

17 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

Depends on the goal. It started as a response to 9/11. We haven’t suffered a major attack since. That’s a W.

There wasnt a major attack before that. Probably couldve defended the US from attacks without shedding 2000+ troops and 2 trillion dollars, IMO

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

3 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

Vehemently disagree. I know it plays well politically but let's stick to reality.

Powell was Deputy NSA then NSA for Reagan , JCOS  for daddy, and finally SOS for junior. Before that he was running with Weinberger and had a fellowship under Nixon. He was very much party of the inner circle. Dude was no dummy and knew how to play the game just like the rest. He wasn't some useful idiot plucked from the back office. Colin Powell knew damn well what he was selling. And he did it willingly. To say otherwise is insulting his intelligence.

As for Condi, she carried the water for Bush multiple times. Especially on the enhanced interrogation technique debate. Care to guess why that was?

Other than that, I agree with your Fuck you list.

I’ve read a lot of reporting about conversations between Powell and Deputy SoS Richard Armitage about how they were kept out of the loop in the Bush/Cheney administration. I don’t think Powell knew just how manufactured the evidence he was asked to present at the UN was. He was told it was solid and that’s why he insisted that Tenet sit behind him. He wasn’t going to sit up there alone. That escapade basically ended his career. And he went on to endorse both Obama in 2008 and Hillary in 2016.

Of course Condi carried the water for Bush. That’s why I mentioned her not following the example set by Scowcroft. Maybe I should’ve said lessons leaned from instead of example set by. But she never acted like she was his protégé. Early on as NSA she functioned more like Dubya’s personal secretary than NSA, acting as a gateway for people wanting an appointment to see the President rather than advising on security issues. She was also one of the surrogates who made the rounds on the Sunday morning news shows peddling the “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” narrative selling the Iraq war.

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

8 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yeah, you can. We do it all over the world without big army. We did not have the 82nd guarding the 300-500 SOCOM Operators in Somalia.

We won in Somalia? That’s news to me. When did that happen?

[TwiceHorn 31512]

20 hours ago, Mole said:

Democracy requires consent of the governed

Very true, but any form of semi-successful government requires the at least grudging consent of the governed.  Authoritarian regimes in Russia and South America have this grudging consent, until it is eventually withdrawn as the government becomes increasingly intolerable.

One problem with Afghanistan is that, like a lot of Middle Eastern countries, its borders are drawn without respect to tribal and ethnic boundaries.  While that's a common and at least semi-valid "complaint" about these "ingobiernable" countries, look what happens when you do draw boundaries according to ethnic/tribal/religious boundaries:  India and Pakistan.  Countries with borders drawn according to ethnic boundaries may be "ok" internally, but externally may be in a perpetual state of war and suffer the psycho-social consequences of the associated chaos noted in this thread.

It is quite the conundrum.

Also, the zebra/horses analogy is seductive.  At some level, there has to be some grain of truth to it.  But, it can be a dangerous concept and can lead directly to white supremacy.  By that, I mean it was a species of that type of thinking, perhaps a bit more malicious, that led to things such as the 3/5 compromise.

Edited August 14, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Parliament 14272]

And we probably could've defended the US from attacks in 1941 if we prepared better.  Totally not making excuses, but sh*t happens.  

Bin Laden thought that his attack would turn the Muslim world against the West.  It did not.  It got only more fractured.  And he thought he could destroy America.  Big fail.  Seems he neglected the fact that we can "Brrrrrrr" our way out of anything.  

[Francisco 2.0 32395]

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

17 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

Wanted to meet with the Taliban at Camp David the week of 9/11, no less. We mustn’t forget that. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by WhatTheBuck

[Brisketexan 105180]

That is my Point [mention=593]Brisketexan[/mention], we did not need Big Army then or now. Yeah, and fuck the corrupt Afghan leadership. They will all be fine escaping to their homes in Dubai. 
USSOCCOM was created for special missions. Small teams, specialized, joint action. They should have remained. Add to them the development teams who would be allowed to do their jobs. The fucking stories I ran across. 
Head of development project for USAID in Helmand was a 28 year old whose only management experience was running the GAP on M Street. Did we need contracting officers assigned to KAF? Nope. Did we need Submariners assigned to the NATO Fusion Cell? Nope.
Something to keep in mind is combat tours mean a lot on the promotion board. We can blame KBR all we want, but I watched NGO's waste cash. I watched Military personnel with no reason to be in country sent there. 
We should have fought an insurgency. Instead we brought in Bradleys and acted like turtles. Oh, and for the most part we treated the Afghans like shit. That is for another story. 

Inka - first and foremost, keep staying safe. Second, thank you for your firsthand insight. Third….keep busting your ass to get the guys who helped us (and their families, lord willing) to a safe refuge.

Keep the info and stories coming.

well we all have our own perspectives. I operated around the country and was always cool with the ANA. I had them lead me through mine fields, give my group ammo when we did not have enough, and let me into their compounds when we shit was rough. 
Maybe we should have focused on the tribal concept. 

I think we understood the tribal concept, played into it and used it, but never really grasped how defining it has been and will be for years to come. The community we’re familiar with is Hazara….and holy fuck, what a mess. Bottom bitch group, and insular. Tribalism reigns, nationalism doesn’t.

Also, the zebra/horses analogy is seductive.  At some level, there has to be some grain of truth to it.  But, it can be a dangerous concept and can lead directly to white supremacy.  By that, I mean it was a species of that type of thinking, perhaps a bit more malicious, that led to things such as the 3/5 compromise.

Yeah….I hesitated before using it, and then decided that it fit for EXACTLY that reason. We certainly come in as the great white savior, “shouldn’t you aspire to be like us?” type quite often. The analogy is apt and cautionary for two reasons - practicality, and as an example of our own hubris and “colonialist-type” thinking.

Afghanistan has been a tribal backwater….while also being a global crossroads….for centuries upon centuries. Parts of it have had their moments (Kabul was peaceful and sophisticated for quite some time in the 60s and 70s), but we were never going to turn it into anything close to a successful western democracy. My great grandkids would fail at that endeavor as well. We’ll never turn that zebra into a horse. Let them be what they want to be (isn’t that what “self-determination” means?). Exert what influence we can through other means (trade, commerce (some of it afghan-style…there will be bakshish), diplomacy, etc). Which takes time, moves slowly, and isn’t nearly as gratifying as hoorah git some.

Empires die on the Afghan plains. I didn’t think that Afghanistan would be our coda as a world power, but when the history books are written, maybe it will be.

[Starfleet Command 441]

“White man’s burden” and other concepts of that ilk are internal propaganda, and have nothing to do with why or how we conduct ourselves in other countries. 

[Nivek 16949]

Very true, but any form of semi-successful government requires the at least grudging consent of the governed.  Authoritarian regimes in Russia and South America have this grudging consent, until it is eventually withdrawn as the government becomes increasingly intolerable.
One problem with Afghanistan is that, like a lot of Middle Eastern countries, its borders are drawn without respect to tribal and ethnic boundaries.  While that's a common and at least semi-valid "complaint" about these "ingobiernable" countries, look what happens when you do draw boundaries according to ethnic/tribal/religious boundaries:  India and Pakistan.  Countries with borders drawn according to ethnic boundaries may be "ok" internally, but externally may be in a perpetual state of war and suffer the psycho-social consequences of the associated chaos noted in this thread.
It is quite the conundrum.
Also, the zebra/horses analogy is seductive.  At some level, there has to be some grain of truth to it.  But, it can be a dangerous concept and can lead directly to white supremacy.  By that, I mean it was a species of that type of thinking, perhaps a bit more malicious, that led to things such as the 3/5 compromise.

That zebra horse seemed racist/ethnocentric as shit to me.

[Brisketexan 105180]

That zebra horse seemed racist/ethnocentric as shit to me.

Well, so are almost all of our “nation-building” exercises (“inside every gook is an American trying to get out!”), so….yes, it is. Was aware of that when I typed it, thought about it, and decided it was apt, so clicked “submit.”

[JimmyJames 12271]

50 minutes ago, Starfleet Command said:

“White man’s burden” and other concepts of that ilk are internal propaganda, and have nothing to do with why or how we conduct ourselves in other countries. 

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

That zebra horse seemed racist/ethnocentric as shit to me.

Except it’s really not. The reason people have different skin colors was due to proximity to the equator, which affects your relationship with the sun, and natural selection caused by susceptibility to viruses (which are of course everywhere) on one hand, and susceptibility to skin cancer (still the most common form of cancer) on the other. That’s it. 
 

One of the reasons society in Europe changed, for better or worse, in relation to societies in Africa was the domestication of animals. Which of course has nothing to do with the color of your skin and was related to what the animals would be willing to do. In other words, sheer luck. 
 

To think one person or society is superior to another because of skin pigmentation was always stupid and is even more so today. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by JimmyJames

[Nivek 16949]

Yeah….I hesitated before using it, and then decided that it fit for EXACTLY that reason. We certainly come in as the great white savior, “shouldn’t you aspire to be like us?” type quite often. The analogy is apt and cautionary for two reasons - practicality, and as an example of our own hubris and “colonialist-type” thinking.

Afghanistan has been a tribal backwater….while also being a global crossroads….for centuries upon centuries. Parts of it have had their moments (Kabul was peaceful and sophisticated for quite some time in the 60s and 70s), but we were never going to turn it into anything close to a successful western democracy. My great grandkids would fail at that endeavor as well. We’ll never turn that zebra into a horse. Let them be what they want to be (isn’t that what “self-determination” means?). Exert what influence we can through other means (trade, commerce (some of it afghan-style…there will be bakshish), diplomacy, etc). Which takes time, moves slowly, and isn’t nearly as gratifying as hoorah git some.

Empires die on the Afghan plains. I didn’t think that Afghanistan would be our coda as a world power, but when the history books are written, maybe it will be.

We have this stupid notion that we are the white knight and everyone wants to live by our social contracts and we need to go out and help liberate those oppressed people who are too oppressed to fight for themselves for the country they want.

I also don’t really buy the colonial arguments as a root cause. I see those regions like 1600s Germany, they are regional groups jockeying for power first and not willing to put that aside for a national identity because they do not have a reason to do so. It is not like they have unified countries around them (France) which pose a threat to their existence thus necessitating the need to reimagining their identity. We did that here too, sure we were Virginians and Pennsylvanians, but we also were English and had French and Spanish threats nearby which helped form a common interest.

Japan and Germany had resources and Industry and laying down weapons to focus on that made sense. Everyone benefitted, industry is urban central. Afghanistan has about 23% of its population in urban settings. For comparison, Japan had a 50/50 split of urban/rural in WW2 which shifted to ~80%. The UK is 90/10% urban/rural split. Germany looks to be between 60-78% urban in WW2, and hovers today at about 78%.

Our own rural dumbasses don’t realize how much they rely on urban areas, central government, welfare, and we have a thread about a group of them who don’t believe in sharing power or compromise (they are fine with tyranny of the minority). They are very quick to change from seeing themselves as Americans (secede) members of a state, to wanting to separate as soon as they don’t get their way with just a little push of propaganda. They want society to change for them.

[Nivek 16949]

Except it’s really not. The reason people have different skin colors was due to proximity to the equator, which affects your relationship with the sun, and natural selection caused by susceptibility to viruses (which are of course everywhere) on one hand, and susceptibility to skin cancer (still the most common form of cancer) on the other. That’s it. 
 
One of the reasons society in Europe changed, for better or worse, in relation to societies in Africa was the domestication of animals. Which of course has nothing to do with the color of your skin and was related to what the animals would be willing to do. In other words, sheer luck. 
 
To think one person or society is superior to another because of skin pigmentation was always stupid and is even more so today. 

It is, because a zebra is not a horse. They are different species.

We humans are one species, Homo Sapien Sapiens.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2652]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, so are almost all of our “nation-building” exercises (“inside every gook is an American trying to get out!”), so….yes, it is. Was aware of that when I typed it, thought about it, and decided it was apt, so clicked “submit.”

Please don’t use that word…. Even in your context it is pretty harmful. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Xian

[Anastasis 23480]

2 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

Weird no one is talking about Russian bounties on Americans anymore either. 

[Brisketexan 105180]

Please don’t use that word…. Even in your context it is pretty harmful. 

Fair, and apologies. Meant to demonstrate the wrongheadedness and patronizing thinking that led to and was embedded in such thoughts (which Americans actually thought and said) - truly wouldn’t want to be hurtful.

[InkaUtexas 26018]

so lash fell. The only way I can work with getting people out is if they have a US citizen who will sponsor them. I am going to do it for my friend's family. They can come and live with me. The rub is I have to do it out of Iran. That is going to be a lot of fun. 

NGO's are scrambling. Starting to get reports of random killings and Talibs going full Talibs.

Can we send aggy to deal with it? Solve two problems. 

[Biff Tannen 45695]

22 hours ago, Nivek said:

Um, he did a PBS show.

Well I didn’t know that. 

[Brisketexan 105180]

so lash fell. The only way I can work with getting people out is if they have a US citizen who will sponsor them. I am going to do it for my friend's family. They can come and live with me. The rub is I have to do it out of Iran. That is going to be a lot of fun. 
NGO's are scrambling. Starting to get reports of random killings and Talibs going full Talibs.
Can we send aggy to deal with it? Solve two problems. 

What does sponsoring someone entail?

[bad_teammate 13220]

lol US military catches yet another L

and the poor die for the suits

WOO!!!!!!!!!

Edited August 15, 2021 by bad_teammate

[Anastasis 23480]

Biden may be cracking. Just sent more troops 

[InkaUtexas 26018]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

What does sponsoring someone entail?

Working on details now. if your Church is part of a larger network they will be scrambling. 

In my case I am going to prove they have a place to live and I can afford them to come and live with me. Not worried so much about the elders like Army Brat, but lets get the youth out. I am going to sponsor his siblings. 

[InkaUtexas 26018]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Biden may be cracking. Just sent more troops 

we are going to put more on stand by than we had there. Add to that a reaction element in Kuwait or Oman. 

[Assman 1830]

It took one deployment out there for me to realize there was no way to "win".  The ANA is the biggest joke of a foreign military, and I've worked with some of the worst.  They never had a chance.  We all knew the second we pulled up the ladder, the entire country would implode.  As sad as it the situation is, it's better to rip off the band-aid now than stay in that shit hole any longer.  Although it would be nice for one last JDAM-fest once the Taliban are encroaching on Kabul.

[InkaUtexas 26018]

4 minutes ago, Assman said:

It took one deployment out there for me to realize there was no way to "win".  The ANA is the biggest joke of a foreign military, and I've worked with some of the worst.  They never had a chance.  We all knew the second we pulled up the ladder, the entire country would implode.  As sad as it the situation is, it's better to rip off the band-aid now than stay in that shit hole any longer.  Although it would be nice for one last JDAM-fest once the Taliban are encroaching on Kabul.

Army, Marines or Air Force? And nah, they weren't. I pulled into many of their locations, fed and watered my teams. I will take the Afghan over most of our African allies. 

And for ripping off the band aid, let's do it here. But slowly. Make the ANA see what is coming. Let the troops get back to their tribal areas. Don't leave the 215 cut off. 

Agree on a JDAM fest. You can only get into Kabul on 3 roads. Let them come and go find their virgins. 

[bad_teammate 13220]

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Biden may be cracking. Just sent more troops 

Joe got a brief taste of America not intervening and he hated it lol

[Hefeweizen 5328]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Joe got a brief taste of America not intervening and he hated it lol

It's too late.  The Talis have entered Kabul and it's over.  What a gotdam waste of blood and treasure.  Thanks GW, Obama, and Trump.  At least Trump did start this process even though  he left it to Biden to finish.

[bad_teammate 13220]

Man if only there was a country that is responsible for this need and had a ton of open land and a bunch of airplanes... hmmmm

 

 

[Nivek 16949]

You seem gleeful BT? There are people getting slaughtered here, like them or not.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

Sad stories but I’m shocked by all of the Afghan residents that seem shocked by what has occurred. I guess they bought into the freedom and western communities only held together by US soldiers and money.  Did the Afghan security forces even fight at all, or did they just go home?

I would like to think that if I were one of the people scrambling to get out, I wouldn’t have waited 20 years to do so. I hope as many as possible get out. 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

16 minutes ago, Nivek said:

You seem gleeful BT? There are people getting slaughtered here, like them or not.

Of course he is. I think he fucking loves the chaos.  He has an amazingly bizarre view of the world, yet if he ever got a taste of the shit he goes on about, would make 10 carrot diamonds out of the shit spewing from his puckered sphincter.

[David Dennison 18940]

41 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Man if only there was a country that is responsible for this need and had a ton of open land and a bunch of airplanes... hmmmm

 

 

Every single one of them should be allowed to settle in the United States.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Every single one of them should be allowed to settle in the United States.

I’ve read this morning that the Taliban is negotiating a peaceful transfer of Kabul and presumably the entire country. It would seem that they would be open to allowing some to leave if they’re quick.

in the same article, there was an aside that the former President, Karzai, was still in Kabul. Color me surprised. I would have guessed that he was living the good life in UAE. Brave and or stupid to remain in the country.

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

21 hours ago, Nivek said:

It is, because a zebra is not a horse. They are different species.

We humans are one species, Homo Sapien Sapiens.

And a lot of us carry Neanderthal DNA. 

[UDontKnow 10447]

13 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I’ve read this morning that the Taliban is negotiating a peaceful transfer of Kabul and presumably the entire country. It would seem that they would be open to allowing some to leave if they’re quick.

in the same article, there was an aside that the former President, Karzai, was still in Kabul. Color me surprised. I would have guessed that he was living the good life in UAE. Brave and or stupid to remain in the country.

What is your source? Just so I can avoid it like the plague.

I also hope you don't believe any of it. 

Peaceful transfer? Why are the US and UK sending their soldiers into Kabul ASAP to get their diplomats out?

Ashraf Ghani has left to Tajikistan, but somehow Hamid Karzai (who has been wanted dead by the Taliban for much longer) is in Kabul?

Edited August 15, 2021 by UDontKnow

[David Dennison 18940]

3 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

What is your source? Just so I can avoid it like the plague.

I also hope you don't believe any of it. 

Peaceful transfer? Why are the US and UK sending their soldiers into Kabul ASAP to get their diplomats out?

Ashraf Ghani has left to Tajikistan, but somehow Hamid Karzai (who has been wanted dead by the Taliban for much longer) is in Kabul?

It's being reported by pretty much every major media outlet this morning.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

1 minute ago, UDontKnow said:

What is your source? Just so I can avoid it like the plague.

I also hope you don't believe any of it. 

Peaceful transfer? Why is the US and UK sending soldiers ASAP to get their diplomats out?

Ashraf Ghani has left to Tajikistan, but somehow Hamid Karzai (who has been wanted dead by the Taliban for much longer) is in Kabul?

Nothing you wrote contradicts what I wrote. An invading force, who’s victory is inevitable, has no reason not to have a quick negotiation for the transfer of power.  Peaceful transfer of power doesn’t mean that both sides are happy with it.

Have the dozen or so regional capitals fallen to the Taliban with a big fight, or did they local govt basically hand them the keys. That’s a peaceful transfer of power. 

here’s an article from 11 minutes ago claiming Karzai is in Kabul with his family.https://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-kabul-bagram-e1ed33fe0c665ee67ba132c51b8e32a5

 

[956 Worldwide 34738]

The Taliban wants a peaceful surrender of Kabul and he the government. Not a peaceful transfer of power which already hasn’t happened. 

[David Dennison 18940]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The Taliban wants a peaceful surrender of Kabul and he the government. Not a peaceful transfer of power which already hasn’t happened. 

At this point, we should do everything in our power to make sure the inevitable surrender is peaceful.

[UDontKnow 10447]

4 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Nothing you wrote contradicts what I wrote. An invading force, who’s victory is inevitable, has no reason not to have a quick negotiation for the transfer of power.  Peaceful transfer of power doesn’t mean that both sides are happy with it.

Have the dozen or so regional capitals fallen to the Taliban with a big fight, or did they local govt basically hand them the keys. That’s a peaceful transfer of power. 

here’s an article from 11 minutes ago claiming Karzai is in Kabul with his family.https://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-kabul-bagram-e1ed33fe0c665ee67ba132c51b8e32a5

 

Thanks for the article.

From the same article.

Quote

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss details of the closed-doors negotiations, described them as “tense.” Karzai himself appeared in a video posted online, his three young daughters around him, saying he remained in Kabul.

Pardon me for not taking Karzai at his word. I have a hard time understanding Karzai's end game here. He's been critical of Ghani for taking the same position he himself maintained once upon a time.

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The Taliban wants a peaceful surrender of Kabul and he the government. Not a peaceful transfer of power which already hasn’t happened. 

This and only this.

Although technically surrender is a type of transfer of power.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

33 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I’ve read this morning that the Taliban is negotiating a peaceful transfer of Kabul and presumably the entire country. It would seem that they would be open to allowing some to leave if they’re quick.

in the same article, there was an aside that the former President, Karzai, was still in Kabul. Color me surprised. I would have guessed that he was living the good life in UAE. Brave and or stupid to remain in the country.

Serious question: and you believe that ?  The Taliban will kill every single one of the men given the chance.  You think they're gonna let the women go ?  Doubtful, IMO, they're valuable commodities as sex slave chattel.  Once again, the US post WWII has shown how idiotic our foreign policy has been.

[UTexasFight 9517]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Dennison 18940]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Serious question: and you believe that ?  The Taliban will kill every single one of the men given the chance.  You think they're gonna let the women go ?  Doubtful, IMO, they're valuable commodities as sex slave chattel.  Once again, the US post WWII has shown how idiotic our foreign policy has been.

We should probably stop playing empire.

[DDD Dad 14346]

Fuck both parties for finger pointing on this debacle. Our entire country owns this.

[Neonmoon 38130]

I didn’t know the Afghans were part French