Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[DDD Dad 14364]

16 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Your not the president and yet I’d bet you’ve openly questioned the last two or three pretty regularly. 

You mad bro?

You seem mad.

[aggie08 21561]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Let them take the political shots all day long. They are only preaching to their base. No one's vote is going to change because Joe Biden led a haphazard exit from Afghanistan.

They damn sure will if American citizens and soldiers end up dead in the coming weeks.

[Tuco 5084]

39 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I wasn’t just asking about the afghan security. I am taking about those people who want to flee for fear of reprisals but cannot.

And do you trust the Taliban to keep their word?

I am less concerned with Taliban leadership "keeping their word" than I am with them being able to control various factions, particularly local control.  I believe the really brutal shit will be at the local level, where some of the grievances are personal and some of the beliefs are more medieval.  I do believe the Taliban leadership has some aspirations to avoid sinking back into the 90s level of diplomatic isolation, which will not be possible if they start executing women for going to school.  But the local fucks aren't necessarily going to be driven by that.  

(That also partially answers the question on why it matters where some of those executions took place. ) 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tuco

[David Dennison 18952]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

They damn sure will if American citizens and soldiers end up dead in the coming weeks.

Not when the next vote is over a year away. This will be a distant memory by then.

[Js1 85635]

7 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

They damn sure will if American citizens and soldiers end up dead in the coming weeks.

It sure looks like the Taliban has been letting them leave and not fucking with them on the way out.  They probably know better. 

As of today, the airport is secure and the Taliban are letting US flights leave. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Js1

[mchookem 16415]

man there is some crazy not-at-all-political hyperbole going on in the DT thread... THIS IS THE WORST THING A PRESIDENT HAS DONE IN A HUNDRED YEARS!!! AMERICA WILL NEVER RECOVER FROM THIS!!!

umm...okay? 🙄

it sounded like yesterday they are still working to get people out. i agree with the sentiment that the Taliban right now are MOST interested in us getting out as quickly as possible so they aren't really going to stand in our way right now. hopefully we can continue to get people out. i can't imagine they want to pick a big fight on our way out the door...

we have such myopic attention spans. Afghanistan was the last thing on people's minds two weeks ago, and it will return to that spot two weeks from now...once school starts and all the kids start getting sick.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by mchookem

[aggie08 21561]

Just now, Js1 said:

It sure looks like the Taliban has letting them leave and not fucking with them on the way out.  They probably know better. 

Oh, I agree. They just want us the fuck out, so you'd assume that they wouldn't poke the bear. But chickens, eggs hatching, and all that.

[David Dennison 18952]

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

It sure looks like the Taliban has been letting them leave and not fucking with them on the way out.  They probably know better. 

As of today, the airport is secure and the Taliban are letting US flights leave. 

Things are actually running pretty smoothly at the moment. 

That could change on a dime, though.

[Sawbonz 27662]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

Presumably because Iran is Shia and the Taliban is extreme Sunni.

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

39 minutes ago, Homercles said:

This place never ceases to amaze me.  Many people here are both medical experts and seasoned military strategists/logistics specialists.  Outstanding.  

 

[Nivek 16999]

13 hours ago, Saint Austin said:

I was wondering this too. Is there a 2020s-version of the Northern Alliance or something out there?

According to Wiki the NA dissolved and some joined the Karzi administration.   They have now reformed as the Panjshir Resistance to fight the Taliban.   

[RomaVicta 30033]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

It sounds like Afghanistan is about to be raped and pillaged by those with the means (read: China/Russia) to come in and set up operations mining the crap out of their minerals and lithium. Afghanistan is estimated to have $3T worth of mineral wealth in the ground.

What I'm confused about geopolitically is Afghanistan's relationship to the rest of the Arab brothers. The Middle East seem to look at each other communally, in some ways, that Afghanistan doesn't get the benefit of. Afghanistan, with some Arab help and the right leadership and culture, could have been an up-and-coming mini-Qatar or something with their natural resources. Instead they are essentially Arab Aggies, drinking ranch water dirty well water and tending to goats while 'Bama China/Russia abuses them and drinks their milkshake.

And ultimately, our enemies have a great story to tell to their people and the world abroad who doesn't pay much attention, that furthers the narrative that we are in a tailspin; right, wrong or indifferent.

 

 

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Afghans aren't Arabs.

 

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Well that answers that then. I guess they are second class citizens of the Muslim world and thus the lack of support and help. Thanks.

Afghanistan is not like any other country in the Muslim world or the non-Muslim world. It has never enjoyed a cohesive national government. It is broken down into a number of peoples which themselves break down into clans/tribes/isolated regions.

Americans see the world in childlike simplicity. Why don't the good people of Afghanistan hold town meetings to determine the future of their country? Because that way of doing things is unknown there. Freedom of movement is unknown there. Commonality of language itself is unknown there.

It's not surprising to hear someone ask why the "other Arabs" don't help Afghanistan out. Or why doesn't Iraq lend a hand to their Muslim brothers? As stated, Afghans are neither Arab nor Shia. We are ill-served by public education and the TV media.

TV media want to tell the emotional story to get viewers. Their tiresome panels talk about the terrible consequences and skirt discussing actually difficult policy by pointing out the bad political optics. This is a blow for Biden because of the way this looks. For an explanation of why things look this way, go find another parade of expert panels on PBS or something.

They could explain this inevitability, but that counters the military fetishism and democracy delusions that they are also part of promoting to, again repeat after me, appeal to emotions next time we're thinking about killing a lot of people using our boys.

Policy wise? Optics kept the Dems from demanding the right thing be done for fear of being called cut-and-runners by the manly GOPs. Cynicism led GOPs to leave the soldiers there so they could blame the Dems for the bad outcome of a policy promoted by the lies of one of their own (W not Trump in this instance).

Trump was right about getting out of Afghanistan. I'm not sure of his reasons, but it's the right policy. Trump seems to have got the ball rolling on this at the end of his term to stick Biden with yet another problem.

Biden steps up and pulls off the Bandaid which, ironically, actually stops American bleeding while leading to massive Afghan bleeding. 

We should have stuck to our mission in Aghanistan using Special Forces to hunt down binLaden and never been distracted by the Iraq invasion fiasco. We come to the end games of those policies. It's really that simple.

No happy ending for you!

Fortunately, we'll carry these lessons forward and never make these mistakes again.

 

[Bateshorn 9942]

23 minutes ago, mchookem said:

man there is some crazy not-at-all-political hyperbole going on in the DT thread... THIS IS THE WORST THING A PRESIDENT HAS DONE IN A HUNDRED YEARS!!! AMERICA WILL NEVER RECOVER FROM THIS!!!

umm...okay? 🙄

it sounded like yesterday they are still working to get people out. i agree with the sentiment that the Taliban right now are MOST interested in us getting out as quickly as possible so they aren't really going to stand in our way right now. hopefully we can continue to get people out. i can't imagine they want to pick a big fight on our way out the door...

we have such myopic attention spans. Afghanistan was the last thing on people's minds two weeks ago, and it will return to that spot two weeks from now...once school starts and all the kids start getting sick.

 

I guess they forgot about when we just straight up cut and ran from Syria and the Turks slaughtered the Kurds. 

[wildcat09 29439]

28 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Afghanistan is not like any other country in the Muslim world or the non-Muslim world. It has never enjoyed a cohesive national government. It is broken down into a number of peoples which themselves break down into clans/tribes/isolated regions.

Americans see the world in childlike simplicity. Why don't the good people of Afghanistan hold town meetings to determine the future of their country? Because that way of doing things is unknown there. Freedom of movement is unknown there. Commonality of language itself is unknown there.

It's not surprising to hear someone ask why the "other Arabs" don't help Afghanistan out. Or why doesn't Iraq lend a hand to their Muslim brothers? As stated, Afghans are neither Arab nor Shia. We are ill-served by public education and the TV media.

 

We could improve education so Americans learn more about how the world actually works, but that would be evil critical race theory and we can't have that.

Edited August 17, 2021 by wildcat09

[phdhorn 6224]

(Posted for the OHMYGOD!!! pic, not for the commentary per se)

[Anastasis 23473]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We could improve education so American's learn more about how the world actually works

 

 

[Bateshorn 9942]

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

 

 

Afghanistan is not like any other country in the Muslim world or the non-Muslim world. It has never enjoyed a cohesive national government. It is broken down into a number of peoples which themselves break down into clans/tribes/isolated regions.

Americans see the world in childlike simplicity. Why don't the good people of Afghanistan hold town meetings to determine the future of their country? Because that way of doing things is unknown there. Freedom of movement is unknown there. Commonality of language itself is unknown there.

It's not surprising to hear someone ask why the "other Arabs" don't help Afghanistan out. Or why doesn't Iraq lend a hand to their Muslim brothers? As stated, Afghans are neither Arab nor Shia. We are ill-served by public education and the TV media.

TV media want to tell the emotional story to get viewers. Their tiresome panels talk about the terrible consequences and skirt discussing actually difficult policy by pointing out the bad political optics. This is a blow for Biden because of the way this looks. For an explanation of why things look this way, go find another parade of expert panels on PBS or something.

They could explain this inevitability, but that counters the military fetishism and democracy delusions that they are also part of promoting to, again repeat after me, appeal to emotions next time we're thinking about killing a lot of people using our boys.

Policy wise? Optics kept the Dems from demanding the right thing be done for fear of being called cut-and-runners by the manly GOPs. Cynicism led GOPs to leave the soldiers there so they could blame the Dems for the bad outcome of a policy promoted by the lies of one of their own (W not Trump in this instance).

Trump was right about getting out of Afghanistan. I'm not sure of his reasons, but it's the right policy. Trump seems to have got the ball rolling on this at the end of his term to stick Biden with yet another problem.

Biden steps up and pulls off the Bandaid which, ironically, actually stops American bleeding while leading to massive Afghan bleeding. 

We should have stuck to our mission in Aghanistan using Special Forces to hunt down binLaden and never been distracted by the Iraq invasion fiasco. We come to the end games of those policies. It's really that simple.

No happy ending for you!

Fortunately, we'll carry these lessons forward and never make these mistakes again.

 

The closest analogy I can make to Afghanistan is pre Cullodan Scotland.  All the scots hated each other and the English, and depending on your religion, you might hate members of your own family for being Protestant or Catholic.  Except they shared a language.

 

The only thing that really ended the strife was the death of all the Highlanders at Culloden, and the subsequent starvation and brutal suppression under the Acts of Proscription, including forced migration and straight up murder.

 

That kind of brutality was (thankfully) not something we were willing to do to win.  

[RomaVicta 30033]

6 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I guess they forgot about when we just straight up cut and ran from Syria and the Turks slaughtered the Kurds. 

I can't believe that this horrendous shame had slipped my mind. I guess insurrection at home distracted me. I can't think of any greater shame than abandoning allies the way Trump did in our name. 

We are one huge piece of shit for that betrayal. There's a long American tradition of screwing the Kurds, but this was the worst.

Shame.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

39 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

You mad bro?

You seem mad.

You an asshole bro?

You seem like an asshole. 

You tried and succeeded. 

[RomaVicta 30033]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

The closest analogy I can make to Afghanistan is pre Cullodan Scotland.  All the scots hated each other and the English, and depending on your religion, you might hate members of your own family for being Protestant or Catholic.  Except they shared a language.

 

The only thing that really ended the strife was the death of all the Highlanders at Culloden, and the subsequent starvation and brutal suppression under the Acts of Proscription, including forced migration and straight up murder.

 

That kind of brutality was (thankfully) not something we were willing to do to win.  

Yea. Fuck the Brits. The Penal Laws in Ireland were the same.

Black 49 is a solid movie depicting the famine days. 

[phdhorn 6224]

1 minute ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

You an asshole bro?

You seem like an asshole. 

You tried and succeeded. 

Did you see that pic I just posted above? Holy shit!!

[Nivek 16999]

8 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

 

 

Afghanistan is not like any other country in the Muslim world or the non-Muslim world. It has never enjoyed a cohesive national government. It is broken down into a number of peoples which themselves break down into clans/tribes/isolated regions.

 

Western European nations were made up of tribes and regions which had previously been competing with one another and then developed a nationalistic identity over their local identities.   Prussia. is not longer independent.  Genoa vs. Naples.  Wales was constantly a thorn in the side of the English monarchy.   Prior to that, our popular netflix series (here) involves Utred helping the King of Wessex and interacting with the leaders of Mercia, North Umbria, etc.   We can keep going back to the Greek city-states which had some Helenes identity when dealing with the Persian Empire.   

 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 minute ago, phdhorn said:

Did you see that pic I just posted above? Holy shit!!

Yeah. Horrible. Probably crushed into the machinery. Just sickening. Feel for the crew too. 

[RomaVicta 30033]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

Utred helping the King of Wessex and interacting with the leaders of Mercia, North Umbria,

The Last Kingdom. We love the series despite Utred's bizarre accent.

Utred, son of Utred, brother of Utred. Destiny is all!

 

[Bateshorn 9942]

European Descendants have this self image that our ancestors weren’t a bunch of religious fanatics intent on subjugating their  neighbors and hated foreigners. 
 

What the fuck do you think the 30 years war and the Inquisition was?

Edited August 17, 2021 by Bateshorn

[ChickenSandwich 9856]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Yeah. Horrible. Probably crushed into the machinery. Just sickening. Feel for the crew too. 

Crew has the ultimate no win situation 

[babysdaddy 2728]

Just now, Bateshorn said:

European Descendants have this self image that our ancestors weren’t a bunch of religious fanatics intent on subjugating their  neighbors and hated foreigners. 
 

What the fuck do you think the 30 years war and the Inquisition was?

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2100]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

I ain't listening to a damn thing Sack has to say on this subject.

All true.  All also the sort of embarrassing distraction technique I hate the right for.  Almost quite literally the opposite of the “but bortion!” the right yells so they don’t have to think about their failures. 

[Parliament 14352]

17 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

(Posted for the OHMYGOD!!! pic, not for the commentary per se)

Did he die?

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

7 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

European Descendants have this self image that our ancestors weren’t a bunch of religious fanatics intent on subjugating their  neighbors and hated foreigners. 
 

What the fuck do you think the 30 years war and the Inquisition was?

Best answer to "How long will it take Afghanistan to adopt democracy? 800 years." More or less the time it took the Britons to get to the Magna Carta.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Harrison Bergeron

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Ojo Rojo said:

What was the excuse for the intel failures of 9/11 and WMD?  My theory is that America has lost it and just about everyone in government at every level sucks at their job.

9/11 was the firewalling of the intel communities from each other.  That was actually a Clinton admin. issue I believe  WMD's seems to be just ignoring the experts, but pretty much everyone thought Iraq had WMD's. but it seems he was more a paper tiger and just bluffing about it.. oct they were spirited out of the country under our noses somehow.

[DDD Dad 14364]

14 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

You an asshole bro?

Yes.  What's your point (note the proper use of "your")?

[MillerEP 30501]

1 minute ago, Parliament said:

Did he die?

If the plane went up to normal altitude then yes that dude is dead. You can't breathe at any altitude of 20,000 or over. Planes usually fly between 31,000-38,000 feet.

Here is the Vice President's, now President's twitter:

 

[MillerEP 30501]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

From my former interpreter sitting in San Antonio. 

We lost brother!
I am country less 💔

His family is still in Helmand and he is nervous the Talibs now have all the biometric data we designed with the Afghan Police apparatus. 

Can they get to Pakistan? Bremen shouldn't be too far away, from there they can have time to plan better and work on getting asylumn somewhere.

[Da Fino 2785]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

From my former interpreter sitting in San Antonio. 

We lost brother!
I am country less 💔

His family is still in Helmand and he is nervous the Talibs now have all the biometric data we designed with the Afghan Police apparatus. 

Not ideal. 

[DDD Dad 14364]

30 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I guess they forgot about when we just straight up cut and ran from Syria and the Turks slaughtered the Kurds. 

That was similarly horrible.

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

If we actually have any hope we can continue as an rational, intelligent, reason-based country we should all be able to agree that Biden made the most embarrassing and historic foreign policy SNAFU maybe ever. I am not talking about the entire Afghanistan campaign, as plenty of mistakes to go around, but this particular withdrawal likely will be his legacy. We should all be able to be adults and call a spade a spade versus trying to count the number of angels on the head of a pin.

[Pig Bellmont 8742]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

9/11 was the firewalling of the intel communities from each other.  That was actually a Clinton admin. issue I believe 

That’s funny- I don’t remember reading that anywhere in the 9/11 Commission report 

[InkaUtexas 26188]

12 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

Can they get to Pakistan? Bremen shouldn't be too far away, from there they can have time to plan better and work on getting asylumn somewhere.

Pretty hard leaving Lash. Talibs are stopping everyone trying to get out. Iran is the easiest and from there to the EU/Dubai. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

8 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

If we actually have any hope we can continue as an rational, intelligent, reason-based country

[Tuco 5084]

28 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I can't believe that this horrendous shame had slipped my mind. I guess insurrection at home distracted me. I can't think of any greater shame than abandoning allies the way Trump did in our name. 

We are one huge piece of shit for that betrayal. There's a long American tradition of screwing the Kurds, but this was the worst.

Shame.

Biden's treatment of the Kurdish issue is something worth keeping an eye one.  Early on the Iraqi occupation, Biden traveled to Iraqi  Kurdistan.  He advocated the psuedo-breakup of the Iraq into Kurd, Sunni, and Shiite regions, which is very much in line with Kurdish goals.  

Maybe at this point, there really isn't much that would be practical to help the Kurds.  But I could see it being one of the foreign policy issues that Biden would take a personal interest in to the point of challenging the State recommendations on.  Ukraine would be another, but there are so many political landmines around that, he would likely be wary of getting too involved. 

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I know how you likely meant that but I think that is more prescient than you probably realize.

[BabaYaga 15331]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Pretty hard leaving Lash. Talibs are stopping everyone trying to get out. Iran is the easiest and from there to the EU/Dubai. 

Apparently all the captured helicopters and many of the ground vehicles are being shipped direct to Iran by the Taliban.  Not sure if all are ANA equipment or abandoned US gear as well?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

But we aren't seeing evidence of much of ANY planning, at any time.  By anyone.

You are assuming this wasn't the plan. 

"Sorry Congress, we need to purchase more drones/MRAPs/Big old bombs. Our cupboard is bare due to having to GTFO quickly." 

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

28 minutes ago, OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys said:

All true.  All also the sort of embarrassing distraction technique I hate the right for.  Almost quite literally the opposite of the “but bortion!” the right yells so they don’t have to think about their failures. 

I agree with the tweet that you have to walk away from the bad investment and not get suckered into the sunk cost fallacy. Especially with this factoid I just read:

"The group [Taliban] is thought to now be stronger in numbers than at any point since they were ousted in 2001 - with up to 85,000 full time fighters, according to recent Nato estimates."

Oof.

[Fondren & Main 6744]

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

17 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

That’s funny- I don’t remember reading that anywhere in the 9/11 Commission report 

You didn't read that firewalling of the FBI, CIA, NSA from each other contributed to intel not being shared and that did start under the Clinton admin.  Those points have been addressed in numerous programs about 9/11.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[InkaUtexas 26188]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Apparently all the captured helicopters and many of the ground vehicles are being shipped direct to Iran by the Taliban.  Not sure if all are ANA equipment or abandoned US gear as well?

Maybe some of the comms/Drone gear, but they don't need the choppers (Already have those air frames). Ground vehicles? Not sure how much we left behind they can really use/need. 

 

 

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

You are assuming this wasn't the plan. 

"Sorry Congress, we need to purchase more drones/MRAPs/Big old bombs. Our cupboard is bare due to having to GTFO quickly." 

 

 

[52-80 19271]

51 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We could improve education so Americans learn more about how the world actually works, but that would be evil critical race theory and we can't have that.

Good thing the systemic white oppressors are gone from afghanistan so the locals can resume civility, diversity, and inclusiveness