Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[wildcat09 29349]

 

Y'all get ready for the whiplash you're going to feel when, no more than a month from now, American conservatives start talking about how they should ally with the Taliban.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

48 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

You an asshole bro?

You seem like an asshole. 

You tried and succeeded. 

[Tuco 5076]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I agree with the tweet that you have to walk away from the bad investment and not get suckered into the sunk cost fallacy. Especially with this factoid I just read:

"The group [Taliban] is thought to now be stronger in numbers than at any point since they were ousted in 2001 - with up to 85,000 full time fighters, according to recent Nato estimates."

Oof.

Yes, consider this. 

On September 10, 2001, the Taliban and the Northern Alliance were engaged in an active civil war that was essentially at a stand-still, with the NA holding regions in the North and the Taliban holding the rest of the country.  On September 10, 2021, after the US has spent, what, 2 trillion dollars and lost 3000 servicemen, the Taliban will likely hold the entire country, albeit with resistance in some regions.  

That simple statement is likely too simple, making it look worse than it should.  But it's still pretty fucked up. 

 

[Hook1997 5354]

36 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

If we actually have any hope we can continue as an rational, intelligent, reason-based country we should all be able to agree that Biden made the most embarrassing and historic foreign policy SNAFU maybe ever. I am not talking about the entire Afghanistan campaign, as plenty of mistakes to go around, but this particular withdrawal likely will be his legacy. We should all be able to be adults and call a spade a spade versus trying to count the number of angels on the head of a pin.

Idk White House press conference right now is sending a pretty strong message of we did nothing wrong at all right now….   There was no good way to do this but it’s pretty clear mistakes were made and suggestions from the military were ignored by the White House.  Now the worst is quite a stretch. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Hook1997

[Captainant 27654]

What's up with the sudden resurgence of GRhorn socks and the disappearance of his newest sock? John Locke and Harrison were both crowdsourced a while ago

[Hmbre97 6306]

I still don't understand all the hand wringing about evacuating citizens. People are acting like shit was business as usual, then they woke up one day last week and Biden was like "Oh, by the way, we're outta here". 

[The Ace of Aces 5181]

32 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

If we actually have any hope we can continue as an rational, intelligent, reason-based country we should all be able to agree that Biden made the most embarrassing and historic foreign policy SNAFU maybe ever. I am not talking about the entire Afghanistan campaign, as plenty of mistakes to go around, but this particular withdrawal likely will be his legacy. We should all be able to be adults and call a spade a spade versus trying to count the number of angels on the head of a pin.

Uh, not a single American has died. Kabul has not been under attack. Sure shit's gone south when the Afghan's pulled a France and ran, but it's not anything even in the top 20 worst US foreign policy debacles in the past 5 years. 

[ChickenSandwich 9833]

2 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

I still don't understand all the hand wringing about evacuating citizens. People are acting like shit was business as usual, then they woke up one day last week and Biden was like "Oh, by the way, we're outta here". 

Same question for the WH, knowing this date was rapidly approaching why schedule your vacations for this week/weekend?

[Parliament 14255]

6 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

I still don't understand all the hand wringing about evacuating citizens. People are acting like shit was business as usual, then they woke up one day last week and Biden was like "Oh, by the way, we're outta here". 

Word is they were told this weekend by the State Dept. to shelter in place.

[Hmbre97 6306]

2 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Word is they were told this weekend by the State Dept. to shelter in place.

Ok, and?

[burntorangebongos 10710]

Consider this: in the time we have been in Afghanistan, there have been no foreign led terrorist attacks on US soil. The point was to fight terrorism where the terrorists lived. We let the mission creep and fucked up on assessing when and how to extricate ourselves but I feel that the fact that we haven't had an attack by foreign terrorists is not something to brush off as a non-accomplishment of the men and women who went there in good faith to keep us safe. Maybe this was mentioned up-thread and I didn't see it. 

I just feel bad for all the people who went there either in the military or in support of it and forming close relationships with their Afghan colleagues. The emotional wounds for collossal mistakes for not extricating these people in a planned manner is going to be as bad as what some Vietnam vets dealt with. That sucks.

[Hmbre97 6306]

This press conference is nutty. America gets hammered for years about playing world police and now people are like "Why you no world police?!?"

[Born to Run 6569]

European Descendants have this self image that our ancestors weren’t a bunch of religious fanatics intent on subjugating their  neighbors and hated foreigners. 
 
What the fuck do you think the 30 years war and the Inquisition was?

Sounds like not distant American History as well

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

54 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Yes.  What's your point (note the proper use of "your")?

In a world of smart phones, autocorrect, posting while otherwise occupied and general fat fingering of touch screens one can surmise that most grammatical errors are tech induced, and not because someone doesn’t understand the difference between your and the contraction of “you are”.

You know this. Your intention was to be an asshole. You succeeded. If you would like to take umbrage with my point about not needing to be an unquestioned subject matter expert to comment on a topic on a sports message board then do so. We both know you don’t have a point. Carry on. 

[Captainant 27654]

34 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I agree with the tweet that you have to walk away from the bad investment and not get suckered into the sunk cost fallacy. Especially with this factoid I just read:

"The group [Taliban] is thought to now be stronger in numbers than at any point since they were ousted in 2001 - with up to 85,000 full time fighters, according to recent Nato estimates."

Oof.

trump - your 2020 vote - freed thousands of taliban fighters and their top leader back in 2018. Big oof.

[BabaYaga 15290]

6 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

This press conference is nutty. America gets hammered for years about playing world police and now people are like "Why you no world police?!?"

This the new talking point?  It's not about getting out.  Most agree this is the prudent move.  It's HOW we are getting out in such a disorganized, disheveled, style leaving tens of thousands stranded, including American citizens and billions in gear just to hit a symbolic date so the administration can have a good photo op moment in Washington (Sept 11th)

[DDD Dad 14332]

6 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

In a world of smart phones, autocorrect, posting while otherwise occupied and general fat fingering of touch screens one can surmise that most grammatical errors are tech induced, and not because someone doesn’t understand the difference between your and the contraction of “you are”.

You know this. Your intention was to be an asshole. You succeeded. If you would like to take umbrage with my point about not needing to be an unquestioned subject matter expert to comment on a topic on a sports message board then do so. We both know you don’t have a point. Carry on. 

If you can't take a little light-hearted ribbing maybe Surly isn't the place for you.

Edited August 17, 2021 by DDD Dad

[Paul Wesley 3278]

2 hours ago, Ojo Rojo said:

My theory is that America has lost it and just about everyone in government at every level sucks at their job.

I have close friends and immediate family who served front-line-combat military deployments, who work for the State department in Ukraine, who were career CIA, and who teach public schools.  Not fucking one of them "sucks at their job."

So maybe rethink your theory.

[Brisketexan 105095]

4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

If you can't take a little light hearted ribbing maybe Surly isn't the place for you.

"Light-hearted" should be hyphenated.  Alternatively, it should be a single combined word.  It should not be two words without a hyphen.

[DDD Dad 14332]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"Light-hearted" should be hyphenated.  Alternatively, it should be a single combined word.  It should not be two words without a hyphen.

Fuck you asshole

Edited August 17, 2021 by DDD Dad

[sidis 9826]

35 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

If we actually have any hope we can continue as an rational, intelligent, reason-based country we should all be able to agree that Biden made the most embarrassing and historic foreign policy SNAFU maybe ever. I am not talking about the entire Afghanistan campaign, as plenty of mistakes to go around, but this particular withdrawal likely will be his legacy. We should all be able to be adults and call a spade a spade versus trying to count the number of angels on the head of a pin.

god damn, between you and phd, the hyperbole in this thread is extraordinary...you really think this is the most embarrassing and historic foreign policy snafu ever for the united states?

not undertaking the second invasion of iraq...no, that wasn't the worst.

not woodrow wilson's unwillingness to make any compromise at the treaty of versailles...

not thomas jefferson's 1807 embargo act of 1807...

not the bay of pigs...

not the failure to follow-up with economic support in afghanistan after arming a bunch of fucking nutjobs to fight our proxy war for us in the 80's...

not the unnecessary escalation of the vietnam war...

not madison's embargo on britain following macon's bill number 2 leading to the war of 1812...

not the abandonment of the kurds in syria...

not the failure to act in the midst of genocide in rwanda...

not the overthrow of mossadeq and the installation of the shah...

not the support of saddam hussein...

not the installation of pinochet...

not the installation of marcos or suharto...

not the support of franco, stroessner, operation condor...

not the support of the massacre of pki members in indonesia...

not the use of torture...

not the eradication of native americans in frontier territories during its expansion...

not the iran-contra affair and the support of killing squads throughout central and south america...

not our responsibility in contributing to the creation of the deadly drug trade throughout south and central america...

not a president getting depantsed in helsenki by the president of russia...

not the somlian intevention of 92...

 

nope, a disorderly evacuation of literally the most backwards country on the planet pursuant to a deal struck in which was supported by the overwhelming majority of americans that fortunately, thus far, has not resulted in significant casualties thank god...that's it.

[Brisketexan 105095]

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

Fuck you, asshole.

FIFY.

[DDD Dad 14332]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

FIFY.

[AUS-97HORN 11757]

4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Fuck. You asshole!

 

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

FIFY.

 

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

 

FIFY x2

[sidis 9826]

44 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

 

Y'all get ready for the whiplash you're going to feel when, no more than a month from now, American conservatives start talking about how they should ally with the Taliban.

they already do on a lot of fundamental social issues.

[DDD Dad 14332]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"Light-hearted" should be hyphenated.  Alternatively, it should be a single combined word.  It should not be two words without a hyphen.

Also, in a world of smart phones, autocorrect, posting while otherwise occupied and general fat fingering of touch screens one can surmise that most grammatical errors are tech induced, and not because someone doesn’t understand the difference between "light hearted" and "light-hearted."

You know this. Your intention was to be an asshole. You succeeded. If you would like to take umbrage with my point about the difference between "your" and "you're" then do so. We both know you don’t have a point. Carry on. 

[Assman 1830]

I can assure you, no American aircraft were left there.  Anything left that resembles that was something we more than likely gave to the ANA. 

[ChickenSandwich 9833]

 

Taliban has a strong troll game

[Brisketexan 105095]

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Also, in a world of smart phones, autocorrect, posting while otherwise occupied and general fat fingering of touch screens one can surmise that most grammatical errors are tech induced, and not because someone doesn’t understand the difference between "light hearted" and "light-hearted."

You know this. Your intention was to be an asshole. You succeeded. If you would like to take umbrage with my point about the difference between "your" and "you're" then do so. We both know you don’t have a point. Carry on. 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

13 hours ago, Nivek said:

What did they have to fight for? Themselves, their kids, their wives, their daughters….. I guess not much.

I saw the woman mayor basically gave up on Twitter saying she is waiting to be murdered now. Then get a fucking gun or bomb your own house and kill the motherfuckers that enter it. Fuck being passively murdered.

 

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

I wasn’t just asking about the afghan security. I am taking about those people who want to flee for fear of reprisals but cannot.

And do you trust the Taliban to keep their word?

The mayor should flee if she can. If you’d rather see a Hollywood movie ending to her life then fine.

The point is that, for most people in the government and the security forces or wherever, your best chance of survival for you and your family is to give up and go away quietly. And when all your comrades and colleagues are doing that it makes it a much easier decision. Sure, it would’ve been nice if they all decided to band together and fight back for their love of Afghanistan and their fearless leader Ashraf Ghani as he fled the country with bags full of American cash. That would look good if you’re seeing it through American eyes. But they identify first and foremost by ethnicity and tribe, not be nationality. And in twenty years we failed to provide them with a legitimate government that was effective and not thoroughly corrupt.

I know when to trust the Taliban and when not to trust them. When they say anyone who opposes them will suffer the consequences, I trust them. When they say they will respect the rights of women or that there won’t be reprisals against anyone who aided the infidel American invaders, I don’t.

But they don’t have enough bullets to kill everyone who worked for the government during the occupation. The Taliban are probably smart enough to follow our example in Germany after WWII when we didn’t condemn everyone who joined the Nazi Party just so they could get a job, and not the way we handled Iraq when Bremer fired every member of the Ba’ath Party wholesale without regard to their function or ideology. 

[BabaYaga 15290]

10 minutes ago, sidis said:

pursuant to a deal struck in which was supported by the overwhelming majority of americans

Talking points are out.

[Fondren & Main 6710]

What a strange world we live in.

[babysdaddy 2721]

5 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Also, in a world of smart phones, autocorrect, posting while otherwise occupied and general fat fingering of touch screens one can surmise that most grammatical errors are tech induced, and not because someone doesn’t understand the difference between "light hearted" and "light-hearted."

You know this. Your intention was to be an asshole. You succeeded. If you would like to take umbrage with my point about the difference between "your" and "you're" then do so. We both know you don’t have a point. Carry on. 

lawyer'd. 

also, dear apple, it's never 'ducking'.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

What a strange world we live in.

it's a simulation. there is no other explanation.

[sidis 9826]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Talking points are out.

what are those exactly?  are all of you that berated me for vocally opposing the wars in 2003 and rallied the "i hate the troops" mantra that suddenly became extremely skeptical of american adventurism from 2012 to 2020 now suddenly flipping back?

was there not a deal struck with the taliban?  i'm imagining this?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51689443

[DonkeyCigars 144]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

identify first and foremost by ethnicity and tribe, not be nationality. 

Enough about America, what about Afghanistan now?

Edited August 17, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[crash_davis 23107]

[Hmbre97 6306]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

This the new talking point?  It's not about getting out.  Most agree this is the prudent move.  It's HOW we are getting out in such a disorganized, disheveled, style leaving tens of thousands stranded, including American citizens and billions in gear just to hit a symbolic date so the administration can have a good photo op moment in Washington (Sept 11th)

 

It's only chaotic because of how quick the Afghan govt folded. We've been telling people for months this was going to happen. If the NHC told people a giant cat 5 was going to hit Florida in 6 months, then when the hurricane is an hour from making landfall and people start screaming for help, how is that on the NHC? Was our military supposed to go door to door, making people evacuate against their will? 

[troph 24783]

the only two things that are problematic to me is that we spent 20 years training a military that didn't have the will to protect its country, that's on them and on us for either being there that long knowing they wouldn't or failing to see how pansy-ass they were going to be which then gets to a sub-point about the complete failure of our intelligence to see what the fuck was going to happen when we evacuated. 

The second concern is what's next in terms of the Taliban harming women and children and promoting and harboring terrorist organizations.  This remains to be seen how we and the global community deal with it.

But anyone pointing the finger at the overall outcome is a hypocrite.  Trump wanted out, Obama wanted out, Bush wanted out, none could do it for good reason or for political reason, none could do it.  Biden did what everyone wanted and if Afghanistan is gonna fall like a cheap tent, we had no business being there after about 5 years.

But yeah, the immediate fiasco of not expecting this and knowing this is on him and his Administration.

Edited August 17, 2021 by troph

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

 

It's only chaotic because of how quick the Afghan govt folded. We've been telling people for months this was going to happen. If the NHC told people a giant cat 5 was going to hit Florida in 6 months, then when the hurricane is an hour from making landfall and people start screaming for help, how is that on the NHC? Was our military supposed to go door to door, making people evacuate against their will? 

Well here the NHC was saying the hurricane was at least 6 months away when it was actually a day away.

[BabaYaga 15290]

4 minutes ago, sidis said:

what are those exactly?  are all of you that berated me for vocally opposing the wars in 2003 and rallied the "i hate the troops" mantra that suddenly became extremely skeptical of american adventurism from 2012 to 2020 now suddenly flipping back?

was there not a deal struck with the taliban?  i'm imagining this?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51689443

I'll save us both the time and re-post what I posted earlier - namely,  that Trump set forth a conditions-based withdrawal with a timeline that could shift based on those conditions. After negotiations with the Taliban, who promised to stop attacking the Afghan government, we started to implement that. The Taliban began violating that agreement. When Biden took over, he did not embrace the Trump policy of conditions-testing, but kept to the timeline even advanced it blindly.

Biden spent the first days in office overturning every single policy of Trump EXCEPT THIS ONE. He had eight months to review the plans, change them, put in carrots and sticks, and he did nothing except speed up the timeline, and deceive the Afghans about the timetable so they got caught flat footed. He can't say that he inherited this and had no choice but to act like a robot and implement it when he literally undid every single other policy of Trump.  THAT IS ON HIM.

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

I can't believe that this horrendous shame had slipped my mind. I guess insurrection at home distracted me. I can't think of any greater shame than abandoning allies the way Trump did in our name. 

We are one huge piece of shit for that betrayal. There's a long American tradition of screwing the Kurds, but this was the worst.

Shame.

Give it time.  We'll top it. 

We aren't to be trusted.

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

European Descendants have this self image that our ancestors weren’t a bunch of religious fanatics intent on subjugating their  neighbors and hated foreigners. 
 

What the fuck do you think the 30 years war and the Inquisition was?

I heard the Inquisition was quite a show.....

59 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

 

Y'all get ready for the whiplash you're going to feel when, no more than a month from now, American conservatives start talking about how they should ally with the Taliban.

Well, how bout this -- I was taking just that position with GOLL in a conversation earlier today.  Not "ally," actually.....but it would have been smart to have engaged in some realpolitik (which the Trump admin actually did, kinda sorta, even if ineptly and incompletely).  When you know the following facts: 1) we will withdraw from Afghanistan, and 2) the Afghan gov't will collapse in short order, and be replaced by a Taliban gov't......then with respect to our long-term interaction with Afghanistan (including things as obvious as working to keep the development of terrorist groups that can attack America tamped down).....who should we have been setting up agreements and deals with?   The "Afghan Government," which was a figment of our imagination, or the Taliban, which was super real and promises to be the power there for years to come?

The Taliban is awful.  They will continue to do awful things.  But they aren't an outlier in the region.  Negotiations and agreements aren't a "good faith' thing.  Rather, they are transactional.  There are things both the Taliban and the US can gain in the region.  We could find ways to give them some things in exchange for them not fostering or protecting Al Qaeda II, Electric Boogaloo.  Is it disgusting to "negotiate" with shitbags like the Taliban?  Maybe.  Are they the governing power in a region that still matters? Yep, so suck it up, buttercup.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

brainworms crew hates talking politics tho

[BabaYaga 15290]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

Trump wanted out, Obama wanted out, Bush wanted out,

It's not the want.  It's the what. 

Namely, what planning was done to better manage this on the ground? 

What steps were taken? 

What was done to protect sensitive gear and documents? 

What was done to identify and extricate Afghani people? 

What was done to manage the logistics of the departure? 

The list goes on.  

[Hmbre97 6306]

I'll save us both the time and re-post what I posted earlier - namely,  that Trump set forth a conditions-based withdrawal with a timeline that could shift based on those conditions. After negotiations with the Taliban, who promised to stop attacking the Afghan government, we started to implement that. The Taliban began violating that agreement. When Biden took over, he did not embrace the Trump policy of conditions-testing, but kept to the timeline even advanced it blindly.

Biden spent the first days in office overturning every single policy of Trump EXCEPT THIS ONE. He had eight months to review the plans, change them, put in carrots and sticks, and he did nothing except speed up the timeline, and deceive the Afghans about the timetable so they got caught flat footed. He can't say that he inherited this and had no choice but to act like a robot and implement it when he literally undid every single other policy of Trump.  THAT IS ON HIM.

 

I see the talking points are out.

[DDD Dad 14332]

CR'd!

[troph 24783]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It's not the want.  It's the what. 

Namely, what planning was done to better manage this on the ground? 

What steps were taken? 

What was done to protect sensitive gear and documents? 

What was done to identify and extricate Afghani people? 

What was done to manage the logistics of the departure? 

The list goes on.  

I already established my problem with the immediacy of it.

[ChickenSandwich 9833]

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

This is probably the dumbest of all dumb questions, but why does our diplomatic staff have to pull out? Is that a Taliban demand, or is it just the way things are done? In all likelihood there will be at least a token effort at rebuilding diplomatic relations almost as soon as we leave. 

Russia and Afghanistan have full diplomatic relations now and I can't seem to find a date for their embassy ever closing in Kabul. Shit got really sour between them when the Taliban was aiding the Chechens, but that doesn't seem to have caused a full break in relations.

 

Also, it's disturbing to me that the Russian-backed Afghan government survived for three fucking years after the Soviet Union collapsed and all their troops went home and ours lasted about three days. What's up with that?

[BabaYaga 15290]

10 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

 

It's only chaotic because of how quick the Afghan govt folded. We've been telling people for months this was going to happen. If the NHC told people a giant cat 5 was going to hit Florida in 6 months, then when the hurricane is an hour from making landfall and people start screaming for help, how is that on the NHC? Was our military supposed to go door to door, making people evacuate against their will? 

The South Vietnamese continued to fight for almost 2 years after the US left.  It's not solely on their will or ability, it's how the logistics and communication is handled based upon the situation on the ground.

You don't skip to the end step and announce a wholehearted withdrawal until earlier steps are taken care of such as stowing secret docs and gear, managing the people situation, lining up logistics, etc.  Nor do you back yourself into a symbolic corner so you can have your DC photo op and tell the press you "got us out" on the symbolic date of 9/11.  Fucking amateur hour.