Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[Pig Bellmont 8712]

 

[BabaYaga 15290]

At least there is a silver lining in all of this:

 

 

[BabaYaga 15290]

1 minute ago, troph said:

you're saying there was no planing.  that's absurd.  I'm saying the underlying intel and the assumptions drawn were completely faulty.

We're basically saying the same thing - as "planning" includes all these component pieces you reference plus the need for multiple contingency plan scenarios.  In saying "no planning" it's just referencing how crap-tastic whatever plans were utilized.  

[wildcat09 29349]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Give it time.  We'll top it. 

We aren't to be trusted.

I heard the Inquisition was quite a show.....

Well, how bout this -- I was taking just that position with GOLL in a conversation earlier today.  Not "ally," actually.....but it would have been smart to have engaged in some realpolitik (which the Trump admin actually did, kinda sorta, even if ineptly and incompletely).  When you know the following facts: 1) we will withdraw from Afghanistan, and 2) the Afghan gov't will collapse in short order, and be replaced by a Taliban gov't......then with respect to our long-term interaction with Afghanistan (including things as obvious as working to keep the development of terrorist groups that can attack America tamped down).....who should we have been setting up agreements and deals with?   The "Afghan Government," which was a figment of our imagination, or the Taliban, which was super real and promises to be the power there for years to come?

The Taliban is awful.  They will continue to do awful things.  But they aren't an outlier in the region.  Negotiations and agreements aren't a "good faith' thing.  Rather, they are transactional.  There are things both the Taliban and the US can gain in the region.  We could find ways to give them some things in exchange for them not fostering or protecting Al Qaeda II, Electric Boogaloo.  Is it disgusting to "negotiate" with shitbags like the Taliban?  Maybe.  Are they the governing power in a region that still matters? Yep, so suck it up, buttercup.

You misunderstand. I don't mean that Republicans will say we, as in America, should ally with the Taliban in some realpolitik fashion. I mean that they'll say that they, as in Republicans, should ally with the Taliban to kill their mutual enemies: liberals. 

[BabaYaga 15290]

Two things remain undefeated - the internetz is one of them, you know the other....

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

We're American citizens being held for months at gunpoint in Afghanistan against their will? Taliban we're supposed to take over May 1. 

[Nivek 16923]

The mayor should flee if she can. If you’d rather see a Hollywood movie ending to her life then fine.
The point is that, for most people in the government and the security forces or wherever, your best chance of survival for you and your family is to give up and go away quietly. And when all your comrades and colleagues are doing that it makes it a much easier decision. Sure, it would’ve been nice if they all decided to band together and fight back for their love of Afghanistan and their fearless leader Ashraf Ghani as he fled the country with bags full of American cash. That would look good if you’re seeing it through American eyes. But they identify first and foremost by ethnicity and tribe, not be nationality. And in twenty years we failed to provide them with a legitimate government that was effective and not thoroughly corrupt.
I know when to trust the Taliban and when not to trust them. When they say anyone who opposes them will suffer the consequences, I trust them. When they say they will respect the rights of women or that there won’t be reprisals against anyone who aided the infidel American invaders, I don’t.
But they don’t have enough bullets to kill everyone who worked for the government during the occupation. The Taliban are probably smart enough to follow our example in Germany after WWII when we didn’t condemn everyone who joined the Nazi Party just so they could get a job, and not the way we handled Iraq when Bremer fired every member of the Ba’ath Party wholesale without regard to their function or ideology. 

I did not suggest she become Rambo or Audi Murphy. But simply rolling over is the issue.

The northern alliance has seemingly started to get going again, with a new branding. There are options but getting linked up is the hurdle now.

There are 85000 fighters in all the taliban all over the country. There are 4.5 million people in Kabul.
Even if the Taliban had 60% of their forces there, and killed 10 civilians for every taliban, The city loses 25% of its citizens and defeats them with 4 million folks not engaging and the Taliban becomes neutered. Assuming those numbers provided by Wiki are still valid (i am sure they are not, but it is all i have to go on).

[Captainant 27647]

12 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

At least there is a silver lining in all of this:

 

 

I mean, trump did incite a terrorist attack against our government so he does have an argument to be a taliban spokesperson

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 hours ago, Hook1997 said:

Idk White House press conference right now is sending a pretty strong message of we did nothing wrong at all right now….  

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

9 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I did not suggest she become Rambo or Audi Murphy. But simply rolling over is the issue.

The northern alliance has seemingly started to get going again, with a new branding. There are options but getting linked up is the hurdle now.

There are 85000 fighters in all the taliban all over the country. There are 4.5 million people in Kabul.
Even if the Taliban had 60% of their forces there, and killed 10 civilians for every taliban, The city loses 25% of its citizens and defeats them with 4 million folks not engaging and the Taliban becomes neutered. Assuming those numbers provided by Wiki are still valid (i am sure they are not, but it is all i have to go on).

This is assuming everyone in Kabul hates the Taliban. They don't. That's why they have steamrolled through the country twice now in the last 25 years.  

The Taliban are like Aggies. The Warlords are like Sooners. 

One is crazy, but predictable. They have a code -- a tenth century form of Islam as filtered through centuries of hillbillies. The other -- you never know how low they will stoop or what levels of depravity they might reach. Nothing governs them except power. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 hour ago, troph said:

, why the fuck didn't we know this would happen.

I'm guessing it was untenable to believe it. I'm betting that message was passed along from the "lower" ranks all the way to the top. I'm guessing it was met with "just make it happen" by the State Department. 

[elfenix 34229]

1 hour ago, troph said:

The intelligence and military communities completely shit the bed here

as they've been doing for 2 decades in afghanistan. 

[Aqua Buddha 14586]

If the Taliban are smart (they’re not), they’ll let everyone who wants go leave.  Fewer mouths to feed and malcontents.

[babysdaddy 2721]

 

jfc

[elfenix 34229]

58 minutes ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

Washington abandoned the Kabul regime

washington spent 2 decades trillions of dollars and thousands of men's and women's lives on the kabul regime.  saying washington abandoned the kabul regime is bullshit.

[troph 24783]

29 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

We're basically saying the same thing - as "planning" includes all these component pieces you reference plus the need for multiple contingency plan scenarios.  In saying "no planning" it's just referencing how crap-tastic whatever plans were utilized.  

no we aren't unless you changed what you said.  you described a bumfuck shoot from the hip process.  I'm saying the bottom up information sucked ass and the top down judgments were bad. you described something entirely different.  what you said isn't really identifying the problem to make for a solution, it's just political hackmanship.  this is a non-CR thread where real policy and real issues should be discussed.  where did shit break down?  that's what I want to know.

Edited August 17, 2021 by troph

[troph 24783]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'm guessing it was untenable to believe it. I'm betting that message was passed along from the "lower" ranks all the way to the top. I'm guessing it was met with "just make it happen" by the State Department. 

and then once again we show our hubris.  one of these days this bullshit is gonna get someone killed.  oh wait.

[BabaYaga 15290]

6 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'm guessing it was met with "just make it happen by 9/11" by the State Department. 

FIFY

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

and then once again we show our hubris.  one of these days this bullshit is gonna get someone killed.  oh wait.

Our entire "adventure" in Afghanistan is based on hubris. We think we can export Americanism because we see people wearing Nike NBA jerseys around the world.

[DDD Dad 14332]

This is assuming everyone in Kabul hates the Taliban. They don't. That's why they have steamrolled through the country twice now in the last 25 years.  
The Taliban are like Aggies. The Warlords are like Sooners. 
One is crazy, but predictable. They have a code -- a tenth century form of Islam as filtered through centuries of hillbillies. The other -- you never know how low they will stoop or what levels of depravity they might reach. Nothing governs them except power. 

So basically the analogy is the Proud Boys are our Taliban and MAGATS are the populace who are ok with them.

[2early4flapjacks? 39]

Maybe it has been said somewhere above, but as bad as the situation is for our Afghan allies, failure to plan their evacuation wasn't an oversight.  We didn't spend American lives, 2 decades, and trillions of dollars handing the country to them to govern and arming/training them to fight the Taliban with an assurance that, if they failed and the shit  inevitably hit the fan, they could drop their guns and be airlifted out.  This was always a sink or swim proposition (as shitty as that is in human terms).  While in the chaos it looks like we are failing our Afghan allies and the general population, it reminds me of the old saying about breakfast: "the chicken (USA) is involved, but the pig is committed" (and I am aware how offensive that sounds).  The Titanic was designed without adequate life boats.  We are dicks; they get fucked.

[elfenix 34229]

17 minutes ago, troph said:

this is a non-CR thread

[High Plains Drifter 11035]

4 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I can't believe that this horrendous shame had slipped my mind. I guess insurrection at home distracted me. I can't think of any greater shame than abandoning allies the way Trump did in our name. 

We are one huge piece of shit for that betrayal. There's a long American tradition of screwing the Kurds, but this was the worst.

Shame.

 

Seems like we are doing the same to interpreters and others and their families who aided the military and can't get (or I should say "couldn't get" because its pretty much too late now) visas or immigration status. When the Taliban finds them, they will be headless by the next morning and their daughters will be given to Taliban fighters as "wives".

 

[Captainant 27647]

9 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

So basically the analogy is the Proud Boys are our Taliban and MAGATS are the populace who are ok with them.

considering that "al qaeda" translates literally to "the base", I think you may just be onto something

[BabaYaga 15290]

9 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Our entire "adventure" in Afghanistan is based on hubris. We think we can export Americanism because we see people wearing Nike NBA jerseys around the world.

The whole narrative revolves around fighting abroad vs fighting in our own backyards, ala 9/11-esq attacks.  Both are faulty assumptions IMHO.  The GWOT has already consumed more than $6T in tax payer, digitally printed from unicorn farts and pixie dust, dollars.  That was OBL's real goal in my opinion.  Economic collapse.  Get us chasing our tails all over the world via these state sponsored proxy wars that we spend ourselves into chaos.  Which could easily happen if/when the US dollar is no longer the de facto world currency reserve.  

And the Taliban?  They are stronger NOW than when they started.  I head last year alone, that they made upwards of $400M from illicit means (mainly drugs, etc).  Twenty years and they got stronger and more organized.  WTF...

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

And the Taliban?  They are stronger NOW than when they started.  I head last year alone, that they made upwards of $400M from illicit means (mainly drugs, etc).  Twenty years and they got stronger and more organized.  WTF...

sooooo...not AMAZING STRIDES!?!?!

[Parliament 14254]

Which of you guys got this thread moved to the CR?

[burntorangebongos 10710]

I dont care about whatever political statement I am "repeating". I care about those who served and what they feel. I would think that listening to people say what you did  in good faith service was of no value, sucks. I heard a guy from the leave no one behind organization say that "betraying" these Afghan people that worked with us will leave a psychic wound similar to what Vietnam vets feel. I just would hate for them to go through that pain. I hope we can get them all out but that window is closing or is almost shut.

The thought that they were " keeping us more safe" better be enough for them in what they've sacrificed. I dont know if I'm being clear,  but thanking them for their service seems more important than ever. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by burntorangebongos

[hayden_horn 11362]

8 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Which of you guys got this thread moved to the CR?

jesus, the vast majority of yall. 

it's like you live in an alternate reality where political posts only matter for the "other side" whichever side that is.

for the record, i didn't move it but i should have like three days ago.

[DDD Dad 14332]

Which of you guys got this thread moved to the CR?

[Ojo Rojo 1962]

3 hours ago, Paul Wesley said:

I have close friends and immediate family who served front-line-combat military deployments, who work for the State department in Ukraine, who were career CIA, and who teach public schools.  Not fucking one of them "sucks at their job."

So maybe rethink your theory.

I said, "just about everyone."  But still, point taken.  There are a lot of capable government employees out there, to be sure.  I'm just in a surly mood and feeling like pretty much fuck everyone and fuck everything.

[Captainant 27647]

2 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I'm just in a surly mood and feeling like pretty much fuck everyone and fuck everything.

[Bateshorn 9927]

Welcome Comrades!!!  The local political officer will reach out to you soon to assure your loyalty to the Great Socialist Republic!!!

[elfenix 34229]

13 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus, the vast majority of yall. 

it's like you live in an alternate reality where political posts only matter for the "other side" whichever side that is.

for the record, i didn't move it but i should have like three days ago.

no fucking shit.  the NO POLITICS!!!!!!!!! crowd sure loves them some politics. 

[sidis 9825]

3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

no fucking shit.  the NO POLITICS!!!!!!!!! crowd sure loves them some politics. 

wait, you're telling me that the below post on page 4 of the thread...which was loved by all the usual suspects of morons...was POLITICAL?!?!?! 

 

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

5 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

European Descendants have this self image that our ancestors weren’t a bunch of religious fanatics intent on subjugating their  neighbors and hated foreigners. 

I am a distant grandson to a man who seized power by murdering his rival in a Church. Religion had nothing to do with it.

But I agree with your point. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

 

for the record, i didn't move it but i should have like three days ago.

That's what He said...

[Hmbre97 6305]

Aww shucks, I was really looking forward to Babayaga continually telling us Biden screwed this up by rushing things and moving the timeline up from May 2021 to Sept 2021...

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Trump freed all the Taliban prisoners, allowed them to arm, promised not to attack them for 14 months, and gave them a concrete timeline for a withdrawal. I don't think he's a culpable as Bush and Cheney, but he F'd up the withdrawal and turned it into an unconditional surrender.

Not exactly sure why 5-10k American citizens are roaming around Afghanistan when the Taliban were supposed to take over months ago.

[troph 24783]

59 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus, the vast majority of yall. 

it's like you live in an alternate reality where political posts only matter for the "other side" whichever side that is.

for the record, i didn't move it but i should have like three days ago.

I think talking policy and facts without taking sides should be allowed but I’m a pollyanna like that.  

[Longhornlove 4813]

20 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Trump freed all the Taliban prisoners, allowed them to arm, promised not to attack them for 14 months, and gave them a concrete timeline for a withdrawal. I don't think he's a culpable as Bush and Cheney, but he F'd up the withdrawal and turned it into an unconditional surrender.

Not exactly sure why 5-10k American citizens are roaming around Afghanistan when the Taliban were supposed to take over months ago.

Trump freed them all huh?

[mchookem 16326]

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

Which of you guys got this thread moved to the CR?

all of them?

[burntorangebongos 10710]

2 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

If the Taliban are smart (they’re not), they’ll let everyone who wants go leave.  Fewer mouths to feed and malcontents.

Yeah but the brain drain will be huge. Can they afford that?  Some of those people know how to run things...you can't let that go.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by burntorangebongos

[burntorangebongos 10710]

2 hours ago, 2early4flapjacks? said:

Maybe it has been said somewhere above, but as bad as the situation is for our Afghan allies, failure to plan their evacuation wasn't an oversight.  We didn't spend American lives, 2 decades, and trillions of dollars handing the country to them to govern and arming/training them to fight the Taliban with an assurance that, if they failed and the shit  inevitably hit the fan, they could drop their guns and be airlifted out.  This was always a sink or swim proposition (as shitty as that is in human terms).  While in the chaos it looks like we are failing our Afghan allies and the general population, it reminds me of the old saying about breakfast: "the chicken (USA) is involved, but the pig is committed" (and I am aware how offensive that sounds).  The Titanic was designed without adequate life boats.  We are dicks; they get fucked.

After what we did to the Kurds and hearing about how we fucked them over before, this is true as true gets.

Edited August 17, 2021 by burntorangebongos

[InkaUtexas 25898]

2 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

After what we did to the Kurt's and hearing about how we fucked them over before, this is true as true gets.

The Kurts. 

[InkaUtexas 25898]

14 minutes ago, burntorangebongos said:

Yeah but the brain drain will be huge. Can they afford that?  Some of those people know how to run things...you can't let that go.

 

Yes, they can. Assume 20% of the government personnel were at least pseudo Taliban, and Afghanistan is a country run by notebook logs, they can retrain. Plus one thing overlooked is how many Talibs were trained across Pakistan. Not just in the Madrassas but also in Universities. Quite a few went to study in the Gulf. 

They have people, but their rulership will be fear. 

[workswithseed 2100]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus, the vast majority of yall. 

it's like you live in an alternate reality where political posts only matter for the "other side" whichever side that is.

for the record, i didn't move it but i should have like three days ago.

Looks at the covid thread. 

[Anastasis 23469]

 

[brakeman 28359]

 

[SwAss 105]

2 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

I am a distant grandson to a man who seized power by murdering his rival in a Church. Religion had nothing to do with it.

But I agree with your point. 

Robert The Bruce? (killed John Comyn in Greyfriars Church in Dumfries).