Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[Bullneck 19184]

Looks like ISIS has entered the chat. 

[Bullneck 19184]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

The ones that were assured by their admin that everything was fine and the ANA would help facilitate a calm and organized withdrawal.  Yes, those NGOs that were lied to as we know Biden was briefed multiple times that the ANA was all but useless and yet did nothing to help those that thought they were safe as the Taliban bulldozed through the country and the admin did jack shit about it except abandon the one airfield that was already fortified and move to a location that is a fucking fishbowl and surrounded on all side by mountains that we don't control.  Those guys. 

I’m done with you. Fuck off. 

[Starfleet Command 441]

lol more likely they were a cutout for the CIA than for the Taliban

[Js1 85439]

The hoops people have been jumping through are making Olympic gymnasts jealous. 

[wildcat09 29355]

It's so cool and good that cable news just keeps putting the same assholes that have been getting Americans killed there for twenty years on TV to explain why we have to keep getting Americans killed there indefinitely.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

18 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Well at least you found the right thread to post your hot takes.

It's pretty quiet in here. I guess you got your wish to stop everyone from talking about how shitty this response was. Own it, bitch.

[BabaYaga 15302]

10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's so cool and good that cable news just keeps putting the same assholes that have been getting Americans killed there for twenty years on TV to explain why we have to keep getting Americans killed there indefinitely.

There's the false choice that just won't die

[DDD Dad 14344]

@Cheeseweasel You can talk about how shitty you think Biden's handled things right here.  But unlike in the DT you'll have to support your views or else be looking at your pants around your ankles again.

Edited August 26, 2021 by DDD Dad

[ChickenSandwich 9843]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

This is my view. WTF did they wait so long? The writing was on the wall, ceiling and floor. I had cousins living in Iran in the 70's working for Exxon. When shit started to turn South, they GTFO. 2 months later the embassy fell. You have to read the signs and know what they mean.

question here would be why every other country misread/misunderstood the same warnings and did not evacuate their people/ planned to keep their Embassy business as usual.  You would think things like abandoning an Embassy would have been discussed with foreign military leaders.  Are you assigning this same level of fault for all of those countries as those left behind?  It doesn't make sense that everyone (all countries) ignored these "severe and critical warnings."  Does it make sense that our government contractors weren't forced to cut their contract lengths to coincide with the pull out and GTFO?

It does if what Biden was saying was impossible six weeks ago was exactly what he was telling our allies behind closed doors, and absolutely no one took these warning seriously, why?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

31 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

How about you not pull the fucking military out in the first place before abandoning the civilians.

civilians knew the exact date of US troop withdrawal. they had months to leave. you refuse to even address that point.

[elfenix 34328]

Yea because so many have died the last 20 months

Wait I thought the Taliban wasn't holding up their end of the bargain

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

you'll have to support your views

Dead Americans aren't enough for you to call this a fuckup? 

[Sawbonz 27580]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Baba ain’t going to lose the title so easily. He’s bordering on obsessed 

Don’t you remember all his posts criticizing TrumpCo for bilateral negotiations with the taliban, releasing 5000 taliban leaders and fighters, and pulling all but 2500 troops out in anticipation of complete withdrawal by May 2021?

 

1 hour ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Biden lied, marines died.

But yes fly him into Kabul right now to help with evacuations efforts. I’m dead serious about that. The US would be much better off

I’ll take him over Trump all day every day and twice on Sunday. And that was our choice

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

civilians knew the exact date of US troop withdrawal. they had months to leave. you refuse to even address that point.

She was wearing a short skirt and hanging around the bar after dark.

[Captainant 27682]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Does it make sense that our government contractors weren't forced to cut their contract lengths to coincide with the pull out and GTFO?

It does if what Biden was saying was impossible six weeks ago was exactly what he was telling our allies behind closed doors, and absolutely no one took these warning seriously, why?

All of those concerns probably are made much worse by the systematic roadblocking of nominations to key diplomatic posts and roles in the State dept right? But that's the ted cruz shit that you and babyaga love, throwing sand in the gears of our ability to execute foreign policy to own the libz

[wildcat09 29355]

6 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There's the false choice that just won't die

You think HR McMaster wants us to leave Afghanistan?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

question here would be why every other country misread/misunderstood the same warnings and did not evacuate their people/ planned to keep their Embassy business as usual.  You would think things like abandoning an Embassy would have been discussed with foreign military leaders.  Are you assigning this same level of fault for all of those countries as those left behind?  It doesn't make sense that everyone (all countries) ignored these "severe and critical warnings."  Does it make sense that our government contractors weren't forced to cut their contract lengths to coincide with the pull out and GTFO?

It does if what Biden was saying was impossible six weeks ago was exactly what he was telling our allies behind closed doors, and absolutely no one took these warning seriously, why?

one thing i've been thinking about is there are some very large companies that chose to maintain operations/keep employees in afghanistan. i would assume they spend a considerable amount of resources assessing the risk of that decision, along with having very clear protocols around when/how to pull the plug. 

did they decide everything was going to be ok when US troops bounced? or were there examples of large multi-nationals saying 'alright folks, time to get out'

[Sawbonz 27580]

59 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

10 marines dead


Going well as it can- David Dennison

How many would you have risked to keep those 10 alive? One of my wife’s good friend’s father died while he was in his mom’s belly. He died in vietnam after all was lost and we were evacuating. Orphaned before he was born for absolutely nothing. You want to put more soldiers in harm’s way. I don’t 

[TXSG8R 3362]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

This victim blaming is disgusting.

As if they had access to military and intel reports or troop strength numbers.  That is a contingency the administration is responsible for, not the civilians.  We have report after report of people getting no clear direction from the admin. - what to do, what not to do.  "Get out" - cool, many are contractors and can't just up and abandon their projects.  This base level reasoning is sickening as a rationale for abandoning them.

They had access to travel advisories and state dep't briefings on threat conditions for the area they are traveling to.  I cant speak from experience about Afghanistan because I never had the joy of running through there, but I can tell you that the amount of briefings, warnings, and training you have to receive to go to South Korea as a defense contractor is staggering.  There is no misunderstanding of what you are walking into, what your options are for when the shit hits the fan, and what risks you are taking by getting on the plane.  Thats for a country that is first world economic powerhouse and tourist destination.  No American citizen in Afghanistan was caught unware of what the situation on the ground was.  

The fact that contractors had big Karen/US tourist energy that the US would get them out no matter what is part of the problem here.  I could understand citizens that were maybe collapsed to Kabul so they had one foot out the door so to speak.  Anyone that wasn't within touching distance of the ridiculously small military footprint we had as we approached this mark on the wall is responsible for their own peril, full stop.  

A withdrawal was agreed to by the previous administration for May 1st.  There was already a mark on the wall, Biden extended it to September, ostensibly because the May 1st deadline was completely untenable.  Regardless, the US leaving Afghanistan wasn't a surprise that snuck up on anyone.  The dates were public knowledge.  

Troop levels were reduced to 2500 in January.  This wasn't a secret or buried in intel reports.  It was in the fucking news, the SecDef made a public statement about it when it happened.  

The US closed Bagram on July 6th.  In case anyone was dismissive of the withdrawal discussion and thought all this leaving talk was just more bullshit, this was a pretty obvious indicator that the withdrawal was real.  Why HKIA was chosen over Bagram as the final extraction point, I don't know.  What I do know is that trying to secure both with 2500 troops would have been foolish.  Again, nothing secret or buried in intel reports that Americans in Afghanistan would not have been aware of.  

The Taliban took control of the first province in their advance on August 6th.  A full month after we closed Bagram, and 11 days before they entered Kabul.  

 

Yes, Biden downplayed the Taliban threat in a public statement.  That doesn't contradict or supersede the travel advisories and warnings coming from the DoD, State Dept, etc.  Americans that stayed in country put themselves in danger.  Americans that stayed outside of Kabul put themselves in grave danger.  

 

[BabaYaga 15302]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

civilians knew the exact date of US troop withdrawal. they had months to leave. you refuse to even address that point.

They were TOLD repeatedly that things were fine and there was no reason to worry.  You don't leave for the airport a month in advance when your leader tells you there is nothing to worry about.  The point you refuse to address. 

Then when shit hits the fan, catching the admin off guard, how the hell do you think the civilians knew what to do?  They're fucking civilians who were repeatedly told all is well.  Then out of the bull shit goes sideways, and the only notice they get is to get to the airport, but you are on your own.  Then they're told NOT to go to the airport, and now they are stuck.  

[DDD Dad 14344]

6 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Dead Americans aren't enough for you to call this a fuckup? 

For the record I haven't weighed in with an opinion on whether this has been a fuckup and who to blame to the extent that it is one.

With regard to today's events, I'm disgusted with the horrible acts of the terrorists and feel terrible for everyone injured and the families of all who were lost.

This is a war zone, and an enemy attacked a target-rich location where our Marines were in harm's way dealing with a humanitarian crisis.  Was it a fuck-up?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I don't have enough information to reach a conclusion.  But you're certainly quick to reach one. 

[BabaYaga 15302]

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

You think HR McMaster wants us to leave Afghanistan?

You think he doesn't?

[Bullneck 19184]

57 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Unfuckingbelievable.

Did I miss all of your posts on this subject over the last 4 1/2 years?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

They were TOLD repeatedly that things were fine and there was no reason to worry.  You don't leave for the airport a month in advance when your leader tells you there is nothing to worry about.  The point you refuse to address. 

Then when shit hits the fan, catching the admin off guard, how the hell do you think the civilians knew what to do?  They're fucking civilians who were repeatedly told all is well.  Then out of the bull shit goes sideways, and the only notice they get is to get to the airport, but you are on your own.  Then they're told NOT to go to the airport, and now they are stuck.  

that is completely made up. you made all of that up.

[Pig Bellmont 8719]

1 minute ago, Bullneck said:

Did I miss all of your posts on this subject over the last 4 1/2 years?

He addressed this by saying he thought everything was fine

[BabaYaga 15302]

Called early - here it is, of course

 

[wildcat09 29355]

13 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You think he doesn't?

He absolutely doesn't want us to leave:

 

 

"These gains will now be wiped out because we can’t be satisfied with managing problems; we have to solve them. If we can’t win clearly and decisively, remaking a society in the process, we will retreat and abandon our allies. Why couldn’t we have left a residual force in Afghanistan to help provide a modicum of security there? Three-quarters of a century after the Korean War, after all, we maintain twenty-nine thousand troops in South Korea. We still have post-World War II troops in Europe. These are the overhead costs of peace and stability."

You really do just invent shit in your head and believe it, don't you?

Edited August 26, 2021 by wildcat09

[JohnnyRage 1617]

SIAP

 

 

[BabaYaga 15302]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

He absolutely doesn't want us to leave:

"These gains will now be wiped out because we can’t be satisfied with managing problems; we have to solve them. If we can’t win clearly and decisively, remaking a society in the process, we will retreat and abandon our allies. Why couldn’t we have left a residual force in Afghanistan to help provide a modicum of security there? Three-quarters of a century after the Korean War, after all, we maintain twenty-nine thousand troops in South Korea. We still have post-World War II troops in Europe. These are the overhead costs of peace and stability."

You really do just invent shit in your head and believe it, don't you?

I don't even know what fucking point you are trying to make?  Nobody here is saying we should stay.  There's a consensus among most that we need to get out.  It's HOW that everyone has issues with.  So tell me again why his opinion matters to anyone?

[Bullneck 19184]

20 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

They had access to travel advisories and state dep't briefings on threat conditions for the area they are traveling to.  I cant speak from experience about Afghanistan because I never had the joy of running through there, but I can tell you that the amount of briefings, warnings, and training you have to receive to go to South Korea as a defense contractor is staggering.  There is no misunderstanding of what you are walking into, what your options are for when the shit hits the fan, and what risks you are taking by getting on the plane.  Thats for a country that is first world economic powerhouse and tourist destination.  No American citizen in Afghanistan was caught unware of what the situation on the ground was.  

The fact that contractors had big Karen/US tourist energy that the US would get them out no matter what is part of the problem here.  I could understand citizens that were maybe collapsed to Kabul so they had one foot out the door so to speak.  Anyone that wasn't within touching distance of the ridiculously small military footprint we had as we approached this mark on the wall is responsible for their own peril, full stop.  

A withdrawal was agreed to by the previous administration for May 1st.  There was already a mark on the wall, Biden extended it to September, ostensibly because the May 1st deadline was completely untenable.  Regardless, the US leaving Afghanistan wasn't a surprise that snuck up on anyone.  The dates were public knowledge.  

Troop levels were reduced to 2500 in January.  This wasn't a secret or buried in intel reports.  It was in the fucking news, the SecDef made a public statement about it when it happened.  

The US closed Bagram on July 6th.  In case anyone was dismissive of the withdrawal discussion and thought all this leaving talk was just more bullshit, this was a pretty obvious indicator that the withdrawal was real.  Why HKIA was chosen over Bagram as the final extraction point, I don't know.  What I do know is that trying to secure both with 2500 troops would have been foolish.  Again, nothing secret or buried in intel reports that Americans in Afghanistan would not have been aware of.  

The Taliban took control of the first province in their advance on August 6th.  A full month after we closed Bagram, and 11 days before they entered Kabul.  

 

Yes, Biden downplayed the Taliban threat in a public statement.  That doesn't contradict or supersede the travel advisories and warnings coming from the DoD, State Dept, etc.  Americans that stayed in country put themselves in danger.  Americans that stayed outside of Kabul put themselves in grave danger.  

 

This is required reading. 

[TXSG8R 3362]

After a quick look at a map, I think HKIA was chosen over Bagram since its in Kabul, and not 30 miles outside of it.  While it would definitely be a more defensible position, it would also have been a much bigger logistical clusterfuck to evac people out.  And lol the discussion about Kabul being some fishbowl surrounded by mountains and easy to hit with mortars.  You just described every location in Afghanistan.  

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

If we don't know where upwards of 1000 citizens are, I'd imagine there were plenty that we didn't know how to tell to get out. There is probably a not insignificant number who were Afghan nationals who gained US citizenship decades ago and decided to return. Many probably have families who aren't US citizens and couldn't get the paperwork to get them visas in time if they did know to get out. Apparently that is in large due to actions of the Trump administration. And how many folks who helped us can't get out or couldn't get their families out? There is no getting around that this whole mess is because the last two administrations royally fucked up.

[wildcat09 29355]

47 minutes ago, Starfleet Command said:

lol more likely they were a cutout for the CIA than for the Taliban

 

46 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's so cool and good that cable news just keeps putting the same assholes that have been getting Americans killed there for twenty years on TV to explain why we have to keep getting Americans killed there indefinitely.

 

35 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There's the false choice that just won't die

 

28 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

You think HR McMaster wants us to leave Afghanistan?

 

19 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You think he doesn't?

 

11 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

He absolutely doesn't want us to leave:

 

 

"These gains will now be wiped out because we can’t be satisfied with managing problems; we have to solve them. If we can’t win clearly and decisively, remaking a society in the process, we will retreat and abandon our allies. Why couldn’t we have left a residual force in Afghanistan to help provide a modicum of security there? Three-quarters of a century after the Korean War, after all, we maintain twenty-nine thousand troops in South Korea. We still have post-World War II troops in Europe. These are the overhead costs of peace and stability."

You really do just invent shit in your head and believe it, don't you?

 

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I don't even know what fucking point you are trying to make?  Nobody here is saying we should stay.  There's a consensus among most that we need to get out.  It's HOW that everyone has issues with.  So tell me again why his opinion matters to anyone?

 

 

[TXSG8R 3362]

2 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

If we don't know where upwards of 1000 citizens are, I'd imagine there were plenty that we didn't know how to tell to get out. There is probably a not insignificant number who were Afghan nationals who gained US citizenship decades ago and decided to return. Many probably have families who aren't US citizens and couldn't get the paperwork to get them visas in time if they did know to get out. Apparently that is in large due to actions of the Trump administration. And how many folks who helped us can't get out or couldn't get their families out? There is no getting around that this whole mess is because the last two administrations royally fucked up.

Absolutely, and even for the ones on the up and up, there are definitely people moving into and out of the country for more nefarious reasons and were under the radar by choice.  A lot of people rolled the dice and are now forcing US service people to leave a barely defensible position to bail them out. Bad decisions have consequences, even if they are for altruistic reasons.  

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

7 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

This is required reading. 

Agreed, it's good stuff. I agree the "caveat emptor" stance is the bottomline here.

That said, there are some obvious and not-so-obvious failures in strategy and execution that is causing some real foreign policy political damage and, ultimately and tragically, costing lives. Lessons will be learned and heads will roll as fall-out at a minimum. If this thing gets any worse, the other side of the aisle is going to have a lot of material to work with come election season, especially if it gets sloppy on the run-up to 8/31 and it looks like we are kotowing to the demands of terrorists and playing by their timelines.

[David Dennison 18935]

1 hour ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Complete and total fuck up. No excuses. 

This is inaccurate.

[David Dennison 18935]

15 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I don't even know what fucking point you are trying to make?  Nobody here is saying we should stay.  There's a consensus among most that we need to get out.  It's HOW that everyone has issues with.  So tell me again why his opinion matters to anyone?

This was HOW it was always going to be. 

[Don Johnson 4754]

 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

I’m done with you. Fuck off. 

Poor little bitch. Can’t help that his admin he voted for fucking sucks and was just fleeced by a bunch of rock throwing Neanderthals

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

 

Going as well as possibly can- David Dennison

[Don Johnson 4754]

 

[immamac 42872]

All the big brain 5head geniuses that could have withdrawn all military presence from Afghanistan and not had the Taliban take over and gotten everyone out who wanted out safely are just in the wrong line of work mmkay. The public sector pays like shit, so they have private sector jobs as CEOs of big multi-national corporations with billion dollar budgets. Using their brains to make a real difference and enrich themselves instead of using their brains to help the despicable baby blood drinking idiots in the government. 

[David Dennison 18935]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Going as well as possibly can- David Dennison

It is. It was always going to be like this. That's why no president wanted to make the call. Good on Joe Biden for doing it.

[immamac 42872]

2 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Poor little bitch. Can’t help that his admin he voted for fucking sucks and was just fleeced by a bunch of rock throwing Neanderthals

Jokes on you, he doesn't remember throwing the rocks. 

[David Dennison 18935]

4 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Poor little bitch. Can’t help that his admin he voted for fucking sucks and was just fleeced by a bunch of rock throwing Neanderthals

But it is so much better than the previous administration, which says a lot.

[Bullneck 19184]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

We had 20 years to help them build a stable gov't... not sure that worked out so well. 

How would you do that ?  You're going to have to go out in the city to get those folks, 'cause the Taliban isn't going to let them thru checkpoints, and roadblocks. That means death to more American service men, and civilians.

This is an ironic post. Or satire. Can’t tell you the difference. 
 

what he’s saying is we need to do the impossible.  

[DDD Dad 14344]

Which one of you guys is Mark Green?

[Sawbonz 27580]

7 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Poor little bitch. Can’t help that his admin he voted for fucking sucks and was just fleeced by a bunch of rock throwing Neanderthals

[Incredulity 11678]

8 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

 

That is FUCKED up.   god grief.

[TXSG8R 3362]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Agreed, it's good stuff. I agree the "caveat emptor" stance is the bottomline here.

That said, there are some obvious and not-so-obvious failures in strategy and execution that is causing some real foreign policy political damage and, ultimately and tragically, costing lives. Lessons will be learned and heads will roll as fall-out at a minimum. If this thing gets any worse, the other side of the aisle is going to have a lot of material to work with come election season, especially if it gets sloppy on the run-up to 8/31 and it looks like we are kotowing to the demands of terrorists and playing by their timelines.

There are a lot of reasons that heads don't roll.  Some of it is political unfortunately.  The other is this is the nature of the business.  The DoD at a minimum operates almost entirely on risk assessment.  They put together the best COAs they can and assign risk levels to them, and agree to use whatever gives them the best outcome with the lowest risk. 

I think that's important for some of the armchair SECDEFs to understand.  If they were presented with 3 COAs and they all carried high risk, you're stuck with shitty, high risk options.  I don't see many scenarios with this drawdown where that wasn't true.  You're evacuating US troops, citizens, and civilians from a high threat area in deteriorating conditions, with an extremely small military footprint.  The alternative is to increase your footprint and/or extend your deadline and likely incur attacks from the biggest force in the country that you have a temporary truce with.  Its easy to just say you would 'Murica this shit and just start bombing shit, but the reality is a little more complicated.