Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[C-Man 27240]

Somebody in authority in a CA school district thought it was a good idea for several dozen students and their parents to go to Afghanistan on a summer trip. Now they're stuck there.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/569307-dozens-of-california-students-parents-stranded?fbclid=IwAR3jz8GC6HVTUdocxIr-ydhGJ25Xw-XrphAAqxN23EUm_YX1KxuhS52qSZ4

Quote

 

Dozens of California students and parents are stranded in Afghanistan after taking a summer trip to the country.

More than 20 students and 16 parents from the Cajon Valley Union School District in El Cajon, Calif., visited Afghanistan on summer vacation. Now they are among thousands of people who are waiting to leave the country amid the chaotic U.S. withdrawal that has caused political unrest across the nation, according to the Los Angeles Times.

Cajon Valley Superintendent David Miyashiro alerted school board members on Tuesday that he would be meeting with Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) to discuss the situation, the Times noted.

Miyashiro told the news outlet that the families traveled to Afghanistan on special visas for U.S. military service and that the school district was able to provide government officials with information on the families as they work to locate them.

The stranded students reportedly attend different schools within the school district. 

Mike Serban, who works with refugee families in the district and heads the Family and Children Engagement program, was the first person to hear about the students’ predicament.

Serban contacted to Miyashiro last week and told him that multiple families had reached out to him concerned that their students would lose out on classroom instruction due to being in Afghanistan, according to the Times.

“Congressman Issa and his staff are working diligently to determine the facts on the ground, any bureaucratic barriers that can be removed, and the best ways to help those stranded leave Afghanistan and return home safely. We won’t stop until we have answers and action,” an Issa spokesperson informed Miyashiro in an email, the Times reported.

Cajon Valley School Board President Tamara Otero told the Times that the students and their families had plans to fly out of Afghanistan and had already purchased tickets.

“But, unfortunately, they were not able to get to the airport," Otero said.

 

 

[Nicole44 22072]

6 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Somebody in authority in a CA school district thought it was a good idea for several dozen students and their parents to go to Afghanistan on a summer trip. Now they're stuck there.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/569307-dozens-of-california-students-parents-stranded?fbclid=IwAR3jz8GC6HVTUdocxIr-ydhGJ25Xw-XrphAAqxN23EUm_YX1KxuhS52qSZ4

 

You don't believe in " shock and awe" to save your soul

[washparkhorn 9939]

27 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

It is tired. Being called a cunt. No doubt the rest of the middle east can destroy your wanting to be a female. But hey...

Sorry about you losing you prom date. That's a big deal.

No one here caused your pain from that loss. Be kind to yourself always (and to others as you grieve). It does get better. 

Hook 'em.

[washparkhorn 9939]

31 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Somebody in authority in a CA school district thought it was a good idea for several dozen students and their parents to go to Afghanistan on a summer trip. Now they're stuck there.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/569307-dozens-of-california-students-parents-stranded?fbclid=IwAR3jz8GC6HVTUdocxIr-ydhGJ25Xw-XrphAAqxN23EUm_YX1KxuhS52qSZ4

 

El Cajon Schools have some serious vocational training opportunities.  Wow.

[Shady Ray 1633]

Brits are essentially done evacuating.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/27/uk-minister-not-everyone-out-kabul-rescue-final-hours-afghanistan

UK minister says ‘not everyone will get out’ with Kabul rescue in final hours

Defence secretary says people stuck in Afghanistan will be offered advice on ‘how to look after themselves’

---

“We at 4.30 this morning, UK-time, closed the Baron’s hotel, shut the processing centre, and the gates were closed at Abbey Gate,” Wallace told Sky News, referring to the Kabul hotel where those leaving were checked, and the gate leading to the airport.

 

“We will process those people that we’ve brought with us, the 1,000 people approximately inside the airfield now, and we will seek a way to continue to find a few people in the crowds where we can, but overall the main processing is now closed and we have a matter of hours,” he added.

[washparkhorn 9939]

Thanks for the link @Shady Ray

Brits say this is according to schedule - given the August 31 deadline. Brits claim the explosions did not affect timetable already in place to close the hotel and Abbey Gate.

+++++++++++

We fly the last plane out on Tuesday. Then it's up to the assets on the ground plus all the support we can provide. It's a tribal endeavor. God speed to those in harm's way.

And I pray it is safe and peaceful - as Abraham, the Father of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism - would demand of his tribes. Don't make Abe mad. He's high up in the organization and has special talents bestowed on him by the One God we share as religions. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by washparkhorn

[Shady Ray 1633]

Barrons: Turkey Holds First Talks with the Taliban in Kabul

 

Turks met for almost 4 hours with Taliban leaders today. 

 

Color me skeptical of the braintrust that is the US foreign policy establishment, but I fully expect us to be supporting the Taliban covertly - if not overtly - in their civil war against ISIS-K within a year. Hell, we have already assisted them informally against ISIS-K ocassionally over the past 18 months and, quite simply, our IC can't kick its addiction to that sweet, sweet Afghanistan bloodshed.

 

It is what we do. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 hours ago, C-Man said:

Somebody in authority in a CA school district thought it was a good idea for several dozen students and their parents to go to Afghanistan on a summer trip. Now they're stuck there.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/569307-dozens-of-california-students-parents-stranded?fbclid=IwAR3jz8GC6HVTUdocxIr-ydhGJ25Xw-XrphAAqxN23EUm_YX1KxuhS52qSZ4

 

Who are the parents that thought that was a good idea ???!! 

Reckless child endangerment charges should be brought against every single one of them, and their children removed from their homes... Jesus..... California....

[TXSG8R 3362]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Who are the parents that thought that was a good idea ???!! 

Reckless child endangerment charges should be brought against every single one of them, and their children removed from their homes... Jesus..... California....

I thought I read they were all Afghan that came to the US and got citizenship. They went back to visit family. Super shitty timing on their part. 

[TXSG8R 3362]

6 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

As of tonight, Biden's response and commitment to retaliate was satisfying. By being swift and decisive I thought he responded with the gravity and seriousness needed and overall I thought was a leadership moment for Joe B. It's what I expected from the leader of the USA, no matter what side of the aisle or name on the back of the jersey.

What tactics or specifics would be satisfactory? I think his response there was a good one and captures my response to you well: Biden, like me, not being a military man and not wanting to pretend to be, asked his commanders for options. Get your options and make an optimal decision, that's a fair deal.

I think Biden’s response was authentic, he had a kid that served and he has genuine empathy and concern for people in uniform. It’s just hollow because of the nature of the enemy. There’s no headquarters to bomb. There no leadership to starve of money through sanctions. We will blow up a training camp full of brown people somewhere and say job done, but ISIS will just use that to recruit more people. There won’t be any real satisfaction or accomplishment from the response in the end. 

[TXSG8R 3362]

36 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

I thought I read they were all Afghan that came to the US and got citizenship. They went back to visit family. Super shitty timing on their part. 

Quote

The families had traveled separately to Afghanistan for summer vacations to see their grandparents, cousins and other relatives. Most of the families came to the United States on a special immigrant visa after having worked for the U.S. government or U.S. military in Afghanistan, officials said. The visa allows only the person and their spouse and children.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/were-trying-to-get-them-out-san-diego-students-stranded-in-afghanistan-expected-to-return-home-soon/2702761/
 

7 of the 8 families had been evacuated as of Wednesday. 

[Bevo 13592]

 

I found this pretty interesting. Obama talks specifically about providing billions per year to Afghanistan to nation build and that we needed to be in Afghanistan rather than Iraq and that we should send more troops to Afghanistan and stop Al Qaeda sanctuaries in Pakistan.

So, Bush wanted to decrease our dependence on Saudi Arabia and get rid of a bad guy in Saddam in Iraq at the same time. Bad move as it destabilized the middle east and cost American lives.

Obama ran against the Bush doctrine and said the bad guys were in Afghanistan so that is where we needed to be. He increased troop numbers and wasted billions and cost American lives in Afghanistan. Another bad move.

I don't think Trump did much wrong with Afghanistan but he is orange and orangeman is bad.

Biden did a poor job handling the withdrawal and it is obvious that bad guys are in control in Afghanistan again.

The future is pretty obvious. Bad guys from Afghanistan will attack the US again. Presidential candidates will argue about the wisdom of totally leaving Afghanistan when things were relatively safe with small troop numbers after the surge. So, we will repeat the surge and leave a small number of troops in Afghanistan. No one in their right mind in Afghanistan will trust the US and because of this the plan will not work.

 

[Buzzrock 14936]

Not just Afghanistan, no one in their right mind in the world will trust the US again. And the first and only time NATO Article 5 was invoked it ended like this.

It is bad. Bad bad bad. The partisan bickering is obnoxious. We fucked this up. The USA. There is no good guy here.

[Captainant 27716]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

Not just Afghanistan, no one in their right mind in the world will trust the US again.

That happened before the Afghanistan withdrawal. Turns out four straight years of shitting in the international community's punch bowl doesn't engender many friends. 

Foreign policy dumbassery like walking away from a treaty or int'l agreement because YOU didn't sign it has irrevocablely diminished our standing as a world leader and ally

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

I thought I read they were all Afghan that came to the US and got citizenship. They went back to visit family. Super shitty timing on their part. 

Thanks for the info. Not sure that makes it much better. We've made an agreement to pull out of a hostile country during the time period you've elected to go visit.  Not what I'd call a smart move.  I'd also question why our state dept. wouldn't strongly dissuade that or even grant visas.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Who are the parents that thought that was a good idea ???!! 

Reckless child endangerment charges should be brought against every single one of them, and their children removed from their homes... Jesus..... California....

“She was wearing a short skirt hanging out at the bar past midnight.”

[Captainant 27716]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Thanks for the info. Not sure that makes it much better. We've made an agreement to pull out of a hostile country during the time period you've elected to go visit.  Not what I'd call a smart move.  I'd also question why our state dept. wouldn't strongly dissuade that or even grant visas.

Our state dept is critically understaffed due to its reliance on senate-confirmed appointments. There's only been 9 confirmations so far for the agency, thanks to one Raphael Cruz. Probably has quite a lot to do with the extremely poor coordination and communication out of State dept

[Buzzrock 14936]

That happened before the Afghanistan withdrawal. Turns out four straight years of shitting in the international community's punch bowl doesn't engender many friends. 
Foreign policy dumbassery like walking away from a treaty or int'l agreement because YOU didn't sign it has irrevocablely diminished our standing as a world leader and ally

Trump shat in the punch and then Biden served it to all the guests. Fuck them both.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Our state dept is critically understaffed due to its reliance on senate-confirmed appointments. There's only been 9 confirmations so far for the agency, thanks to one Raphael Cruz. Probably has quite a lot to do with the extremely poor coordination and communication out of State dept

Yeah, this is on the parents.  You have a duty to protect your family, and going to a country that's about to be evacuated by our military is an astoundingly stupid move.  Gov't isn't there to make your decisions for you, scratch that, that's what it is becoming for far too many.

[sidis 9832]

21 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

I don't think Trump did much wrong with Afghanistan but he is orange and orangeman is bad.

Biden did a poor job handling the withdrawal and it is obvious that bad guys are in control in Afghanistan again.

The future is pretty obvious. Bad guys from Afghanistan will attack the US again. Presidential candidates will argue about the wisdom of totally leaving Afghanistan when things were relatively safe with small troop numbers after the surge.

Can you not see how difficult it is to take your opinions seriously when you articulate this utter lack of logic and consistency?

There is so much inconsistent with this line of thinking but at its core, if you don’t think Trump did anything wrong (and attempt to dismiss his participation in the silliest possible way) but you think it is a big mistake for the United States to leave Afghanistan entirely…and to leave the Taliban (the bad guys) in charge, then how can you say that there was nothing wrong with bilaterally negotiating the Doha Agreement which represented the wholesale exit of the United States military from the country with the Taliban and no involvement from the Afghani government? It was a tacit acknowledgment that the Taliban would regain control of the country…and we aided in that process by releasing 5,000 Taliban fighters as part of the agreement.  You appear to not find that to be a satisfactory outcome but it is precisely the outcome the person you think did nothing wrong negotiated.

The logistics of the withdrawal has nothing to do with the Taliban regaining control over Afghanistan, it was inevitable the minute Doha was signed. 

[Captainant 27716]

2 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Trump shat in the punch and then Biden served it to all the guests. Fuck them both.

Ya know, that's not a bad way of framing it lol. Fair play

[sidis 9832]

3 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Trump shat in the punch and then Biden served it to all the guests. Fuck them both.

The idea that we are just now not trustworthy on the international geopolitical front because of the last two presidents with the last hundred years in the books is pretty laughable. The 150-200K dead civilians in Iraq in a completely unprovoked war find this discussion quaint and trite. As does the Shah. And Pinochet and Suharto and Marcos, and the Central American contras, and on and on and on and on and on…

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Gov't isn't there to make your decisions for you, scratch that, that's what it is becoming for far too many.

That’s the point we’ve continually been making for the thousands that ignored dozens of warnings pleading with them to leave the country.

Glad you’re coming around.

[Bullneck 19192]

9 hours ago, aggie08 said:

But what does all that even mean in this context? Are we going to base some Seals in a bordering country and occasionally go in to kill some terrorists? How does that differ from the last 20 years? What happens when a helicopter crashes and we lose 20 guys in a country we're not even in anymore?

For once, I think the talk about payback is just empty words. And probably for the best.

Damn, you took time to read that word salad?  DC used to annoy me; now I scroll past knowing there's nothing of value. 

[Shady Ray 1633]

7 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Not just Afghanistan, no one in their right mind in the world will trust the US again. And the first and only time NATO Article 5 was invoked it ended like this.

It is bad. Bad bad bad. The partisan bickering is obnoxious. We fucked this up. The USA. There is no good guy here.

 

4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

That happened before the Afghanistan withdrawal. Turns out four straight years of shitting in the international community's punch bowl doesn't engender many friends. 

Foreign policy dumbassery like walking away from a treaty or int'l agreement because YOU didn't sign it has irrevocablely diminished our standing as a world leader and ally

 

I can only speak for the current state of public discourse in Germany and Austria, but yeah, it is really bad.

 

Some of that could be due to the fact that the Bundestag elections are four weeks away and Germany is essentially doing its best to board up Europe in anticipation of the inevitable migration influx, but the fact of the matter is that for the first time in my decade here all the major parties are openly echoing the eternally-advocated French position of a common European framework for defense and foreign policy.

 

Yes, this is much, much easier said than done due to financial/intra-EU considerations; plus the fact that the US will certainly apply all kinds of pressure to continue the system where NATO is the cornerstone of European defense, but fact of the matter is that our frolics and detours through the Middle East have reinforced the view of many (particularly outside of the "Post War" generation) that it is possible to occupy a space somewhere between Russian authoritarianism and American hyper-militarism/defense industry subservience. While my personal belief is that this evolution in the transatlantic relationship is inevitable, what is constantly front-and-present with our constant partisan bickering and our unreliability with respect to international agreements is greatly accelerating things. 

 

Wikileaks once released a 2010 CIA memo that essentially identified the key element of continued support of the war in Western Europe as being pure electoral apathy and that any attention to the conflict here will lead to a lack of support.

 

 

https://file.wikileaks.org/file/cia-afghanistan.pdf

 

Well, there's been some attention.

[Bullneck 19192]

^^^^^ So, zero upside, lots of downside.

[aggie08 21513]

9 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Damn, you took time to read that word salad?  DC used to annoy me; now I scroll past knowing there's nothing of value. 

Yeah, I know he's being disingenuous. He wasn't "ramped up" and proud of Biden's revenge rhetoric. He'd be right back here to criticize the administration if they reengage troops in Afghanistan. It's just easy to paint him into a corner, and I was bored.

Edited August 27, 2021 by aggie08

[Bevo 13592]

15 minutes ago, sidis said:

Can you not see how difficult it is to take your opinions seriously when you articulate this utter lack of logic and consistency?

There is so much inconsistent with this line of thinking but at its core, if you don’t think Trump did anything wrong (and attempt to dismiss his participation in the silliest possible way) but you think it is a big mistake for the United States to leave Afghanistan entirely…and to leave the Taliban (the bad guys) in charge, then how can you say that there was nothing wrong with bilaterally negotiating the Doha Agreement which represented the wholesale exit of the United States military from the country with the Taliban and no involvement from the Afghani government? It was a tacit acknowledgment that the Taliban would regain control of the country…and we aided in that process by releasing 5,000 Taliban fighters as part of the agreement.  You appear to not find that to be a satisfactory outcome but it is precisely the outcome the person you think did nothing wrong negotiated.

The logistics of the withdrawal has nothing to do with the Taliban regaining control over Afghanistan, it was inevitable the minute Doha was signed. 

I think we should have kept a small number of troops in Afghanistan so I disagreed with Obama when he changed tunes in his second term and Trump with his plan to exit. But, Trump listened to advisors to some extent and set conditions on withdrawal. Those conditions weren't met. So, it is unclear what Trump would have done in Afghanistan if he was re-elected. And it doesn't matter anyway. Plans are just plans. They can be changed. Negotiating terms is not the same as withdrawing. Trump negotiated terms, Biden withdrew. If Biden were to blame everything on Trump's agreement, it would be disingenuous and no one except sycophants would agree with Biden. Trump can be blamed for releasing Taliban prisoners. I don't know what your thoughts are on keeping prisoners indefinitely without trial, though. So, if we are talking about some sort of logical inconsistency, I think you may be at bigger risk than me.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

I think Biden’s response was authentic, he had a kid that served and he has genuine empathy and concern for people in uniform. It’s just hollow because of the nature of the enemy. There’s no headquarters to bomb. There no leadership to starve of money through sanctions. We will blow up a training camp full of brown people somewhere and say job done, but ISIS will just use that to recruit more people. There won’t be any real satisfaction or accomplishment from the response in the end. 

Speaking just for myself, of course, I would reward activity (swift, decisive and smart activity) here and weight that over results, because of everything you said about the nature of the enemy. 

With the eyes of every two-bit extremist, would-be terrorists and wannabe upstart on you, you've got to make a point. It's not about the one ant, it's about keeping all the other ants in line.

Edited August 27, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[David Dennison 18941]

51 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Not just Afghanistan, no one in their right mind in the world will trust the US again. And the first and only time NATO Article 5 was invoked it ended like this.

It is bad. Bad bad bad. The partisan bickering is obnoxious. We fucked this up. The USA. There is no good guy here.

It's not the first time. It won't be the last time.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

With the eyes of every two-bit extremist, would-be terrorists and wannabe upstart on you, you've got to make a point. It's not about the one ant, it's about keeping all the other ants in line.

How’s that working out for us?

[Nivek 16953]

11 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

What par of the Taliban is worth saving?

The Taliban was against the growth and sale of poppy, and they outlawed the practice of bachabaze, which was where pubescents boys were dressed up as little girls and gang raped, and they were given rice or a couple of dollars for their time.  Once they enter puberty they are cast aside and forced to live in shame as beggars. The Taliban outlawed this practice and it would cost you your life to participate in it.  Once the Taliban fell, this tradition re-emerged.   

Afghanistan supplies about 70% of the opium in the world.  The Taliban was effective in limiting that.

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

Just now, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

How’s that working out for us?

Depends on your expectations and goals, I guess.

If you are implying success is defined as having a 100 NPS score with all the civilized nations of the world and no enemies taking stands or arms against us in the various theatres we operate in, then it's a fools errand. 

How do you define working out for us? In what terms?

I'll answer the question from my point of view instead of just asking you (in the hopes you will actually answer)

I would think a balanced scorecard to measure success is to have an exercise that might look somewhat like the following:

• Have your top people gather all the data
• Interpret and model out the data
• Forecast what you project the status quo would look like
  • How many deaths of Americans via enemies?
  • How many attacks on Americans via enemies?
  • Attacks on American soil?
  • Impact on economic factors via enemies (GDP impact)
  • Whatever other metrics you want to define, etc. et al.
• Formulate your strategy
• Set goals for what you want your strategy to accomplish
• Execute on your strategy
• Measure the YoY delta
• Determine if it's "working out for us", as you say.

[Nivek 16953]

4 hours ago, Shady Ray said:

Barrons: Turkey Holds First Talks with the Taliban in Kabul

 

Turks met for almost 4 hours with Taliban leaders today. 

 

Color me skeptical of the braintrust that is the US foreign policy establishment, but I fully expect us to be supporting the Taliban covertly - if not overtly - in their civil war against ISIS-K within a year.

Of course we will, there is money to be made.  

[DonkeyCigars 143]

11 minutes ago, Nivek said:

The Taliban was against the growth and sale of poppy, and they outlawed the practice of bachabaze, which was where pubescents boys were dressed up as little girls and gang raped, and they were given rice or a couple of dollars for their time.  Once they enter puberty they are cast aside and forced to live in shame as beggars. The Taliban outlawed this practice and it would cost you your life to participate in it.  Once the Taliban fell, this tradition re-emerged.   

Afghanistan supplies about 70% of the opium in the world.  The Taliban was effective in limiting that.

 

That is disgusting if true. wow.

[BabaYaga 15303]

15 hours ago, elfenix said:

bagram has 1 functioning runway which is all of 300' longer than kabul's.  both bagram and kabul's runways are over 11,000 feet. 

nearly everything else you said applies to bagram as well, and add to that bagram is ~30 miles or so by highway from kabul.  which i'm sure is easily defended and not readily mined with IEDs. 

Which, of course talks are being had to the option or trying to retake Bagram.  A question asked in the presser on Wednesday.  Milley is getting raked over the coals over the decision to abandon it and will probably be the fall guy over the stupidity of the decision even though we know "where the buck stops"

The second part makes no sense if you believe the statements that the Taliban want us out.  Are you insinuating that ISIS and AQ and mining the roads and that congested, urban areas are as easy to defend as wide open regions that are not surrounded in a bowl of mountains that the military does not control?

 

[sidis 9832]

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I think we should have kept a small number of troops in Afghanistan so I disagreed with Obama when he changed tunes in his second term and Trump with his plan to exit. But, Trump listened to advisors to some extent and set conditions on withdrawal. Those conditions weren't met. So, it is unclear what Trump would have done in Afghanistan if he was re-elected. And it doesn't matter anyway. Plans are just plans. They can be changed. Negotiating terms is not the same as withdrawing. Trump negotiated terms, Biden withdrew. If Biden were to blame everything on Trump's agreement, it would be disingenuous and no one except sycophants would agree with Biden. Trump can be blamed for releasing Taliban prisoners. I don't know what your thoughts are on keeping prisoners indefinitely without trial, though. So, if we are talking about some sort of logical inconsistency, I think you may be at bigger risk than me.

as to your last point, you are, of course, mischaracterizing my post.  i did not set forth any opinion on the release...i simply pointed out the fact that you seem intent on absolving trump from any responsibility in the current situation.  you stated "I don't think Trump did much wrong with Afghanistan but he is orange and orangeman is bad."  then, you seem pretty upset that the taliban "bad guys" are back in charge in afghanistan without acknowledging that 1) trump and pompeo negotiated directly with the taliban on the united states' exit - an acknowledgment as to who was actually in charge there; and 2) he released 5,000 of the "bad guys" back to aid in the effort in the "bad guys" being back in charge.

trump effectuated the withdrawal that you disagree with.  period.  the other problem that you have with your foreverwar perspective and in saying you think we should have kept troops in afghanistan, is that the overwhelming majority of americans disagree with you.

 

negotiating terms was not the final outcome..the final outcome was reaching an agreement.  and the conditions to the exit were vague but effectively stated that they would not attack americans on our way out and that they wouldn't welcome al-qaeda with open arms once we left.  you say those conditions weren't met...which ones?  i know that republicans and trumpkins don't think agreements and contracts matter and that we should just be able to tear up whatever we want, whenever we want, and declare king's x but that mentality is precisely what leads to the type of things i listed above regarding our extraordinary record of foreign policy failures and horrors.

[Nivek 16953]

9 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

That is disgusting if true. wow.

BBC Article

FP Story, different spelling

Wiki Article, the term means - Boy Play

Newsweek, with rape victim interview

The FP Link directly cites how this came back after the Taliban was pushed out of power.   We and the rest of the world turned a blind eye.  I guess we were too busy trying to win hearts and minds it seems to want to interfere with pedophelia as was our puppet regime.   This is a cultural practice, not just some isolated one off degenerate.  

Maybe Inka can offer some perspective from the ground level.  

[Shady Ray 1633]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

BBC Article

FP Story, different spelling

Wiki Article, the term means - Boy Play

Newsweek, with rape victim interview

The FP Link directly cites how this came back after the Taliban was pushed out of power.   We and the rest of the world turned a blind eye.  I guess we were too busy trying to win hearts and minds it seems to want to interfere with pedophelia as was our puppet regime.   This is a cultural practice, not just some isolated one off degenerate.  

Maybe Inka can offer some perspective from the ground level.  

And not only turned a blind eye, but there are multiple documented instances of military brass actively telling soldiers NOT to report it. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html

[wildcat09 29361]

50 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I think we should have kept a small number of troops in Afghanistan so I disagreed with Obama when he changed tunes in his second term and Trump with his plan to exit. But, Trump listened to advisors to some extent and set conditions on withdrawal. Those conditions weren't met. So, it is unclear what Trump would have done in Afghanistan if he was re-elected. And it doesn't matter anyway. Plans are just plans. They can be changed. Negotiating terms is not the same as withdrawing. Trump negotiated terms, Biden withdrew. If Biden were to blame everything on Trump's agreement, it would be disingenuous and no one except sycophants would agree with Biden. Trump can be blamed for releasing Taliban prisoners. I don't know what your thoughts are on keeping prisoners indefinitely without trial, though. So, if we are talking about some sort of logical inconsistency, I think you may be at bigger risk than me.

No he didn't. There's not one goddamn condition in the Doha agreement.

[elfenix 34331]

29 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

The second part makes no sense if you believe the statements that the Taliban want us out.  Are you insinuating that ISIS and AQ and mining the roads and that congested, urban areas are as easy to defend as wide open regions that are not surrounded in a bowl of mountains that the military does not control?

if your concern is that the place can't be defended, then bagram isn't any better, and is in fact worse, because it's miles away from where the majority of our people were.  once the afghan government fell we've been dependent upon the self-interest of the taliban for security regardless of leaving from bagram, kabul, kandahar, mazar-i-sharif, helmand, etc. 

if you're isis and the americans are all leaving via convoy down 30 miles of highway to bagram, you're licking your fucking chops.  it doesn't even take an artillery piece to shut that down, all you have to do is blow up a road in the middle of the night. 

[RomaVicta 29957]

13 hours ago, Mole said:

There are times when killing your enemies is justified, but any ideology that unilaterally seeks to simply wipe out the bad guys includes self-annihilation if it’s to be consistent. If we start destroying all the “bad guys” then we’re the bad guys.

I don’t like the minimizing of today’s suffering. It sucks and we can discuss it without pretending otherwise because it might be our guy taking the heat.

And the pretend patriotic rage is the worst. Vengeance only leads to more American tragedy. Making loud noises and talking tough doesn’t make you a patriot. Legitimate grieving anger is fine for the short term, but sending someone else’s children to die for your anger isn’t patriotism.

This is so very good.

I hate the characterization of an enemy as "bad guys." It is a facile fit for our simplistic mythology that all struggles are good versus evil. All the super hero movies and cop shows pretty much fit this model.

Again, I think this goes back to the war against the Nazis and the brutal Japanese Empire. The Rape of Nanking and the attempted extermination of the Jews pretty much made anything the Allies did, and we did some very shitty things, small potatoes.

Casting foreign conflicts as good versus evil short circuits considered discourse about whether our policies serve the long term interests of the United States. When we reduce this conflicts/invasions to good vs evil, you have to wonder whose interests are being served. 

Cui bono (who benefits)? Lotta money gets sloshed around. Casting war as good versus evil would lead to constant war as there is always something "evil" to wage war against.

The "war against terrorism" was exactly vague enough that you would be in a constant state of war. You can justify a lot of bad policy and wasted expenditure in such an endeavor, but who wants to talk about that when we're fighting "pure evil?"

 

[TwiceHorn 31516]

10 hours ago, Mole said:

There’s a passage in Jim Bouton’s Ball Four, a great book about an aging and marginal baseball player hanging on in the big leagues. In the passage, he talks about having to act really mad after every loss even though it was just an act. He liked winning, but he didn’t see the point in throwing a tantrum after a loss.

I feel the same way every time a president gives the tough talk to the bad guys. It feels so pointless to me, but I guess it’s part of the job to act angry. If you need to blow up some bad guys, then blow them up. I don’t see the need for the act. I guess some people take solace in tough talk, but it seems dumb to me.

If a president initiates military action, putting American troops in danger, simply out of some righteous sense of vengeance, he’s a maniac. If there’s a valid strategic reason for it, that’s a sobering decision that carries the weight of life and death. If you have a strategic justification for killing the bad guys and the risks are acceptable, cool, but that’s not a choice made in anger.

Put more directly, no service members should be put at risk just because some fat redneck in College Station wants to act tough and angry. Some things are worth dying for, but not a demented identity and hurt national pride.

Yeah, going back to "entitled to feel emotions," that probably includes the latitude to express some anger and desire for revenge; that is, "the act."  Probably ideally you skip the act too and are just mad, or hurt, or sad or whatever.  But the important thing, I think, is not to act under the influence of emotions.  If retaliation serves some real purpose other than making you "feel better," and won't set off a vicious cycle of retaliatory acts, then fine, I guess.  But at least give it some cool deliberation before acting.

[RomaVicta 29957]

13 hours ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Looks like bagram was never in the cards
 

 

So yea. Ink is correct

 

Bagram is the new Ben Ghazi. No investigation of infamous Jan. 6. Endless investigations of Bagram. 

If the GOPs controlled the House, they'd do a retaliatory impeachment.

You're all despicable fuckwads. Don't pretend like you give a fuck about anything other than the jersey you wear or hide beneath your overshirt. 

There should be an investigation of this withdrawal with the aim of informing future policy and strategy. That's not what you're after. You're living it up as an amateur operative with no moral compass and no real care for the country you falsely claim to care about.

You are more dangerous to this country than any foreign enemy. 

[Js1 85462]

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Bagram is the new Ben Ghazi. No investigation of infamous Jan. 6. Endless investigations of Bagram. 

If the GOPs controlled the House, they'd do a retaliatory impeachment.

You're all despicable fuckwads. Don't pretend like you give a fuck about anything other than the jersey you wear or hide beneath your overshirt. 

There should be an investigation of this withdrawal with the aim of informing future policy and strategy. That's not what you're after. You're living it up as an amateur operative with no moral compass and no real care for the country you falsely claim to care about.

You are more dangerous to this country than any foreign enemy. 

GOP:

For it before they were against it

Now want to use impeachment and the 25th amendment when they bitched about it endlessly in 2018/2020/2021 as something you don't use because you don't like someone's policies

[F250 28806]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, going back to "entitled to feel emotions," that probably includes the latitude to express some anger and desire for revenge; that is, "the act."  Probably ideally you skip the act too and are just mad, or hurt, or sad or whatever.  But the important thing, I think, is not to act under the influence of emotions.  If retaliation serves some real purpose other than making you "feel better," and won't set off a vicious cycle of retaliatory acts, then fine, I guess.  But at least give it some cool deliberation before acting.

 Disagree. Emotions should always inform your decisions. Seneca once wrote "Anger is wisdom and reason is folly. Only a fool would restrain his anger in order to consider the potential consequences of his poorly thought out decisions." 

 

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Yeah, I know he's being disingenuous. He wasn't "ramped up" and proud of Biden's revenge rhetoric. He'd be right back here to criticize the administration if they reengage troops in Afghanistan. It's just easy to paint him into a corner, and I was bored.

It continues to blow my mind that some of you people are so robotic and binary. I'm a human being and that means that sometimes my beliefs and values and interests conflict.

In this case I thought Joe Biden was awesome for his words last night. Which also isn't all that incongruent. 

Also it's hilarious you think you painted me into a corner because you asked a question and then I answered it and that was literally it.

[aggie08 21513]

9 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

It continues to blow my mind that some of you people are so robotic and binary. I'm a human being and that means that sometimes my beliefs and values and interests conflict.

In this case I thought Joe Biden was awesome for his words last night. Which also isn't all that incongruent. 

Also it's hilarious you think you painted me into a corner because you asked a question and then I answered it and that was literally it.

You're painted into the corner of wanting significant, comprehensive retaliation. Not an air strike or two. But, likely, boots on the ground with, just like the past 20 years, no realistically achievable way to "win."

[RomaVicta 29957]

5 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Who are the parents that thought that was a good idea ???!! 

Reckless child endangerment charges should be brought against every single one of them, and their children removed from their homes... Jesus..... California....

I guess flights to the West Bank, Damascus, and the hinterlands of the Phillipines were all booked up. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

9 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

You're painted into the corner of wanting significant, comprehensive retaliation. Not an air strike or two. But, likely, boots on the ground with, just like the past 20 years, no realistically achievable way to "win."

Nah, I didn't say any of that. I would like to see a significant and quick retaliation. That is all. Not re-entrenchment or boots on the ground. Bomb the crap out of the would-be's in shock and awe. The key here is to respond swiftly (read: not 6 months from now as someone mentioned).

As I've said, it's making a statement and we are rewarding the activity, more than the result. To do otherwise is to enhance a moral hazard, is and has been my suggestion. 

I stand with Joe Biden on this one.

Edited August 27, 2021 by DonkeyCigars