Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[crash_davis 23084]

6 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 

You can't win occupations so it can't be the goal. 

thy knoweth nothing.

[Pimphand 5597]

Didn't see it posted....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mlCPMYtPk

Cannot embed...

 

[hookemATL 11611]

3 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

It will be an L once the Taliban resumes control of the country.

 

Look…can I aggy this thing onto the memorial wall and take the undeserved  credit for this boondoggle, or not?

[Nueces River Rat 5529]

28 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Not in the ignition, they're above the visor.  Didn't you see any movies as a kid? 

Front Fender... Passenger side..

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

I'd say a safe, and smart strategy, if a bit tail between your legs.  An announcement of troop withdrawal could spark some last minute revenge potshots, ambushes, and everybodies favorite game ...... Hide The IED.

Afghanistan is like what, 100-0 in the invasions their country ?   Even Alexander the Great couldn't beat the Afghanis.  

[TexasEd 8064]

5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Those people don't want to be ruled by anyone other than their elders. Like I said above, some cultures may not be fit for democracy or any other rule of law not implemented by their ancestors centuries ago.

They have their shithole and damned if anyone will move them beyond the 19th century.

First part of that is like reading Scottish history.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Japan unconditionally surrendered after having 2 big ass bombs dropped on them. Germany was split in 2 with one side being Democratic and the other side only being Democratic in name. Not sure those are success stories of the people wanting and welcoming change versus having lost in war and having terms dictated to them.

What of our attempts at nation building has "succeeded"? Iraq? Latin American countries although the definition of "succeed" is certainly arguable.

 

Japan and Germany, too, have a sort of industriousness and malleability that led them to not only become what they did in WWII, but post-war under a more benign influence.

Japan is a fairly remarkable story.  After centuries of isolation and essentially medieval rule, under British and American influence, they became a near superpower with the arms and industrial might to wage a world war within the span of less than a century.

[InkaUtexas 25519]

Yes, but the Afghans have defeated how many empires? 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yes, but the Afghans have defeated how many empires? 

All comers....

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

9 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Maybe some cultures and peoples are not made for democracy. That's my take away.

I moved to the Middle East in my mid-20’s...went there straight from Washington DC with all sorts of high minded ideals in my head about the power of democracy in the area.

When I left, I carried 2 strong convictions:

() the idea that western democracy will work in these societies is laughably stupid.

() we need to find other sources of energy outside of their oil. 

[LABEVO 928]

but we won in iraq, riiiiight?

[Shady Ray 1633]

In case anyone is interested in a straight-forward, long-form, apolitical, objective set of interviews about the entire situation on the ground in Afghanistan, I highly recommend the Podcast series "Afghanistan After America" from Aussie photojournalist/freelance journalist Andrew Quilty. He has been on the ground living in Kabul for years now and has a series of interviews with really interesting people living there. He interviews an active Taliban commander, an ANA general, a pro-government media baron, various members of the Afghan intelligentsia, and a few more. I listened to the one with Taliban expert Rahmatullah Amiri and then binged the rest over the next few days.

 

The interviews are from late 2020, so a bit dated, but all discussions occur under the shadow of the Doha negotiations between the Afghan Govt and the Taliban. And while Quilty is somewhat outspoken against the US and how the war was conducted in some of his published writings, the interviews themselves are really fascinating and it really gives the listener an insight into just how deeply unchangeable the place really is at every level and facet of society. 

[Newdoc 3433]

23 hours ago, crash_davis said:

They entered from the north, smashing through the first barrier, ransacking buildings, loading anything that was not nailed down into trucks.

The troops could have least had a garage sale and would have come out with enough cash for a nice dinner at Applebee’s.

[Nivek 16860]

Yes, but the Afghans have defeated how many empires? 

Don’t you hear it calling?

[Nueces River Rat 5529]

15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Japan and Germany, too, have a sort of industriousness and malleability that led them to not only become what they did in WWII, but post-war under a more benign influence.

Japan is a fairly remarkable story.  After centuries of isolation and essentially medieval rule, under British and American influence, they became a near superpower with the arms and industrial might to wage a world war within the span of less than a century.

What is also remarkable about Japan post -war is they virtually did a complete reputation of war after their surrender to the US.  It was until more recent they've been more aggressive building up their military in part to counter balance China in that part of the world.  

[Parliament 14138]

I'm pretty sure their constitution doesn't allow them to have an "offensive" military.  We kinda made them put that in there.

[InkaUtexas 25519]

well judging by Afghan Army counter attacks we might have written into their constitution as well. 

[MillerEP 30339]

I fought in Afghanistan, out of my multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, Afghanistan was by far the worst. You've never seen 3rd world until you're patrolling around the mountains and deserts there. It truly will help put how great we have it here into perspective. So long story short, I feel like I have a little bit of skin in the game for helping and keeping tabs on what's going on over there. So when I saw this today it peaked my interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/07/armed-afghan-women-take-to-streets-in-show-of-defiance-against-taliban?utm_term=OZY&utm_campaign=pdb&utm_content=Thursday_07.08.21&utm_source=Campaigner&utm_medium=email

Armed Afghan women take to streets in show of defiance against Taliban
Women in north and central regions of country stage demonstrations as militants make sweeping gains nationwide

by Emma Graham-Harrison in Kabul

 

So like when Iraq almost fell (but fought back and didn't!) to ISIS, this gives me hope that our lingering around long enough for an entire generation to get used to having some rights and freedom had some positive effect. That the people will not fall back to their old ways. Either way, it'll be really interesting to see how this all pans out over the next year.

As it stands now, it looks like we learned our lesson from Iraq and are actually forming plans for immigrating interpreters and those who helped/worked on coalition bases outside of the country, so hopefully we continue down that path, because I feel that the Taliban will be much less forgiving to "collaborators" that ISIS was in Iraq (surprisingly).

Edited July 8, 2021 by MillerEP

[BearSchlong 8077]

Move them to Texas and buy them Shrimp boats, like we did with our Vietnamese allies?

[Macanudo 12928]

On 7/7/2021 at 9:19 AM, Newdoc said:

The troops could have least had a garage sale and would have come out with enough cash for a nice dinner at Applebee’s.

Dinner with Dorothy Mantooth?

[InkaUtexas 25519]

As Afghanistan collapses I just received these images from my old interpreter. We spent a lot of time running around Helmand. We got him out, but his family is still in Lash ka Gar. The city is falling. He knows as soon as the Talibs realize he worked for the Americans his family will be killed. I get the whole no endless wars, etc, but dammit, this hits me hard. I really loved his family. They were so good to me and I always enjoyed escaping the mundane day to day job and go and sit with his father and mother and enjoy an evening with an Afghan family. 

 

This street was the most secured location outside the Brit base in town. 

[Party_Taco 3674]

^^^ That business infuriates me. It’s not like we haven’t been doing this for decades and have an entire game plan in place for pulling out supporting personnel and their families when we eventually bail.

Why anyone would work with us on the ground is beyond me. Lie to get us there, lie about the situation on the ground in perpetuity and lie to those who trusted us as we vanish into the night.

It’s cowardly and pathetic, especially given our vast resources.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2630]

1 hour ago, Party_Taco said:

^^^ That business infuriates me. It’s not like we haven’t been doing this for decades and have an entire game plan in place for pulling out supporting personnel and their families when we eventually bail.

Why anyone would work with us on the ground is beyond me. Lie to get us there, lie about the situation on the ground in perpetuity and lie to those who trusted us as we vanish into the night.

It’s cowardly and pathetic, especially given our vast resources.

Agreed. How have we not been preparing for this. We all knew how it would end. 

[South Austin 52144]

On 7/9/2021 at 11:50 PM, Macanudo said:

Dinner with Dorothy Mantooth?

Would they ever call her again?

[LABEVO 928]

Quote

Between 2010 to 2012, when the US for a time had more than 100,000 soldiers in the country, the cost of the war grew to almost $100bn a year, according to US government figures.

In addition, the US state department - along with the US Agency for International Development (USAID) and other government agencies - spent $44bn on reconstruction projects.

 

That brings the total cost - based on official data - to $822bn between 2001 and 2019, but it doesn't include any spending in Pakistan, which the US uses as a base for Afghan-related operations.

 

According to a Brown University study in 2019, which has looked at war spending in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, the US had spent around $978bn (their estimate also includes money allocated for the 2020 fiscal year).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-47391821

 

 

[InkaUtexas 25519]

US is going to start evacuating the Embassy in Kabul. 

I did not expect the Taliban to take the north so fast. Mazar is surrounded. Kabul is about to be surrounded. 

[elfenix 34171]

iraq is a bigger waste. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

~3,000 individuals died on Sept 11 which was the impetus (at least that we know of) for these wars. Imagine if we focused the resources we put forth to solve that problem to solve COVID and other ills impacting our country with far higher death rates. 

[LABEVO 928]

Any social program.

hOw WiLl We PaY fOr IT?!

[David Dennison 18659]

The Pentagon is a jobs program and a not-unsubtle way to goose the economy. Hardly a waste from the point of view of capitalists.

[hookemATL 11611]

I would be more ok with it if we would win a war every once in awhile.  What is the streak up to now?  We are the Washington Generals of Armed Forces.

wait...oh ok.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

2 minutes ago, hookemATL said:

I would be more ok with it if we would win a war every once in awhile.

This.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The Pentagon is a jobs program and a not-unsubtle way to goose the economy. Hardly a waste from the point of view of capitalists.

This.

[Brisketexan 104628]

30 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

US is going to start evacuating the Embassy in Kabul. 

I did not expect the Taliban to take the north so fast. Mazar is surrounded. Kabul is about to be surrounded. 

What I don't understand is how anyone with any say over the situation is at all surprised by both the results and the speed of those results.

I'm an amateur nobody, who has simply paid attention to the situation on the ground from a moderately educated perspective, and who has read a tiny bit of history (both recent and old).  This was always what was going to happen.

[DalTxHornFan 3085]

Think of all of the jobs that these expenditures created! -- AOC

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

One only needs to look at the win loss record of Afghanistan to know this:  you      just        don't         go        there.  It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

 

 

EDIT:  Yes, Asia is a continent not a country (SEE: The Princess Bride).

Edited August 13, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[Chad Fuck 17566]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What I don't understand is how anyone with any say over the situation is at all surprised by both the results and the speed of those results.

I'm an amateur nobody, who has simply paid attention to the situation on the ground from a moderately educated perspective, and who has read a tiny bit of history (both recent and old).  This was always what was going to happen.

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?  Absolutely.  But mission creep into nation building in the Graveyard of Nations?  Destined to fail.  

We learned nothing from Vietnam.  Diving into other people's civil wars is a no win situation.

[Brisketexan 104628]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

One only needs to look at the win loss record of Afghanistan to know this:  you      just        don't         go        there.  It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

And matching wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line!

[David Dennison 18659]

6 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?  Absolutely.  But mission creep into nation building in the Graveyard of Nations?  Destined to fail.  

We learned nothing from Vietnam.  Diving into other people's civil wars is a no win situation.

You're assuming modern warfare is about trying to "win."

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

19 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?  Absolutely.  But mission creep into nation building in the Graveyard of Nations?  Destined to fail.  

We learned nothing from Vietnam.  Diving into other people's civil wars is a no win situation.

Yeah, going after him, and finishing the mission would have been justified for sure, but they let that bastard slip away instead of a full out prosecution of his capture or kill.  Which would have been a far different mission than trying to control the whole country.

 It does seem we've learned jack shit from VN.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And matching wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line!

Well..... that goes without saying.....

[Brisketexan 104628]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, going after him, and finishing the mission would have been justified for sure, but they let that bastard slip away instead of a full out prosecution of his capture or kill.  Which would have been a far different mission than trying to control the whole country.

 It does seem we've learned jack shit from VN.

I mean, the VN era even had a better soundtrack and shit.  Dammit.

[CooterBrown 17913]

The Pentagon is a jobs program and a not-unsubtle way to goose the economy. Hardly a waste from the point of view of capitalists.

To be fair, we could just keep the jobs program and have them pick up trash on highways instead of getting them killed or maimed in third world shitholes.

[6th Street 6357]

"Freedom ain't free!"

[CooterBrown 17913]

One only needs to look at the win loss record of Afghanistan to know this:  you      just        don't         go        there.  It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

Asia is my favorite country.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, CooterBrown said:

Asia is my favorite country.

You know what I meant ............. dammit.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, the VN era even had a better soundtrack and shit.  Dammit.

THAT is for damn sure  !!!

[hookemATL 11611]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, the VN era even had a better soundtrack and shit.  Dammit.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 hours ago, hookemATL said:

Man, what's with them negative waves.... (w/ editorial thanks to Brisketexan)

Edited August 12, 2021 by Onboard 2.0

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

Should’ve nuked bin Laden and al-Qaeda at Tora Bora when we had the chance and called it quits. Should’ve focused on making the perpetrators of 9/11 pay, you know, in a time of our choosing like Dubya promised (and failed to deliver). Never should’ve taken our eye off the ball and invaded Iraq while strengthening Iran in the process. Remember Iran? The country that actually engaged in terrorist attacks against our country, stormed our embassy and held our citizens captive for over a year? Never should’ve traded arms for hostages with Iran which only led to more hostages. Right, like George H.W. Bush had no knowledge of that. The scars left by the Bush family on our foreign policy cut pretty deep. BUT THE CLINTONS! It’s easy to distract the morons.

20, 30,40, 50 years, the outcome of our adventure in Afghanistan was never in doubt. We don’t live there. The Taliban do. Eventually we’d get tired and leave and they’d take over again. They knew that. Every sane person knew that. Like the Taliban say, the U.S. might have the watches but they have the time.

There’s absolutely nothing surprising about what is happening in Afghanistan now. I’ve been saying for years that this is exactly what would happen whenever we decide to leave.

Edited August 12, 2021 by WhatTheBuck