Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[WBT 20561]

I, for one, can't wait for season 2 of United States of Al

[BabaYaga 15290]

Seems The Atlantic is now piling on.  Let's see what they have to say?

This should be fun

Quote

So is there a unifying theory of why Biden is so consistently wrong on major foreign-policy matters? Does he misunderstand something about the world, or possess some set of instincts that don't serve him well?

Perhaps the place to begin is by recognizing that Biden has never been an impressive strategic thinker. When talking about his strengths, those close to Biden stress his people skills: his ability to read foreign leaders, to know when to push and when to yield, when to socialize and when to turn to business. But that's very different from having a strategic vision and a sophisticated understanding of historical events and forces.

What the Biden foreign-policy record shows, I think, is a man who behaves as if he knows much more than he does, who has far too much confidence in his own judgment in the face of contrary advice from experts. (My hunch is he's overcompensating for an intellectual inferiority complex, which has manifested itself in his history of plagiarism, lying about his academic achievements, and other embellishments.)

On national-security matters, President Biden lacks some of the most important qualities needed in those who govern discernment, wisdom, and prudence; the ability to anticipate unfolding events; the capacity to make the right decision based on incomplete information; and the willingness to adjust one's analysis in light of changing circumstances.

To put it in simple terms, Joe Biden has bad judgment.

Quote

But Biden decided to do in Afghanistan what he decided to do in Iraq: cut the cord because he was determined to cut the cord, because he thinks he knows better, not because circumstances on the ground dictated that it be done. The result is a human-rights catastrophe.

America's second Catholic president speaks openly of his faith, carries a rosary in his pocket, and attends Mass every Sunday. "Joe is someone for whom the ways in which he sees issues around racial justice, around the treatment of refugees and immigrantsall of that is connected to a view of other peoplewho he sees as neighbor, who he sees as being made in the image of God," Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, a close friend of Biden's, told NPR.

Carol Keehan, the former head of the Catholic Health Association, who has worked closely with Biden for years, echoes those sentiments. "He's very clear about justice," she told NPR. "When Joe Biden talks about faith, he talks very much about things like the Gospel of Matthew'what you've done to the least of my brother, you've done to me.'"

Just don't tell that to the girls, women, and other frightened souls in Afghanistan who, thanks to a decision made by Joseph R. Biden Jr., are about to enter the gates of hell.

 

[The Ace of Aces 5181]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Seems The Atlantic is now piling on.  Let's see what they have to say?

This should be fun

 

Quoting Bush's speechwriter who wrote all the lies that led to this fuckup is not a prudent boarding decision, dude. 

[BabaYaga 15290]

4 minutes ago, The Ace of Aces said:

Quoting Bush's speechwriter who wrote all the lies that led to this fuckup is not a prudent boarding decision, dude. 

Oh noz...he haz the bias?  I forgot there were still people in the media with them.  Carry on.  

[The Ace of Aces 5181]

13 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Oh noz...he haz the bias?  I forgot there were still people in the media with them.  Carry on.  

He’s not ‘“in the media.” He’s a writer who has been published, but that doesn’t make him a member of the media. 
 

That fuck is a neocon to the extreme who had a big hand likely in the fake reasons given to attack Iraq. He can get fucked  

 

[BabaYaga 15290]

1 minute ago, The Ace of Aces said:

He’s not ‘“in the media.” He’s a writer who has been published, but that doesn’t make him a member of the media. 
 

That fuck is a neocon to the extreme who had a big hand likely in the fake reasons given to attack Iraq. He can get fucked  

 

Likely?  Maybe?  Does that in any way discount the points that Biden has been on the wrong side of virtually every major foreign policy decision for decades?  

[sidis 9825]

44 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

“None whatsoever.  Zero,”....“What you had is — you had entire brigades breaking through the gates of our embassy — six, if I’m not mistaken. The Taliban is not the south — the North Vietnamese army. They’re not — they’re not remotely comparable in terms of capability.  There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of a embassy in the — of the United States from Afghanistan.  It is not at all comparable.”

 

i find it amusing that you think this is remotely comparable to the type of disingenuousness that accompanies every republican and maga idiot on the planet running around to scrub their last 48 months of public proclamations in order to try and score extraordinarily cheap political points drenched in hypocrisy.

[BabaYaga 15290]

38 minutes ago, sidis said:

i find it amusing that you think this is remotely comparable to the type of disingenuousness that accompanies every republican and maga idiot on the planet running around to scrub their last 48 months of public proclamations in order to try and score extraordinarily cheap political points drenched in hypocrisy.

Almost as amusing as the type of disingenuousness that accompanies every democrat and lefty idiot on the planet running around to scrub their presidents utter and complete bed shitting by making this about the entire Afghan occupation and not the disastrously fuck up of an exit that this thread is actually about.

[cactusflinthead 27598]

After years of giving zero fucks

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Almost as amusing as the type of disingenuousness that accompanies every democrat and lefty idiot on the planet running around to scrub their presidents utter and complete bed shitting by making this about the entire Afghan occupation and not the disastrously fuck up of an exit that this thread is actually about.

not surprisingly, the original CR thread on this topic was littered with 'lefty idiots' that were critical of biden's handling of this withdrawal. 

but obviously facts like that have no place in your world view.

[Willfully Horn 8005]

Watching the news last night, one thing the center left media is able to do is criticize a center left President. Beats the ankle grabbing the Right performs.

[Nivek 16923]

but was it orderly?   

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

After years of giving zero fucks

 

Well yeah, this goes back to my earlier post— America wanted Afghanistan off their TVs and for no bodies to come home. Other than that, we, as a nation did not give a single shit about what what happening there or about what we did with the place. 
 

It should also disabuse us of the notion that military leaders know how to do everything. Do you know how much of the wasteful development spending was done by the military. Read up about CERP, it will make you want to pull your hair out. This isn’t a knock on military commanders, who know how to fight wars. It’s a knock on an ignorant and aggressive populace who hates things like foreign aid so is instead we allocate it through too the military and ask them to do things they don’t know how to do.

It amuses me how we look at Victorian British stomping around the realm in pith helmets and dresses as objects of humor. Those assholes governed the whole subcontinent with a few thousand civil servants and officers, and no PowerPoint. Sure, they did a lot of horrible things but if we want to to play empire . . .

Can you imagine modern foreign policy blob America producing a single soul as erudite, sensitive, and curious as a Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton? 

[UpperWestside 6162]

5 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Seems The Atlantic is now piling on.  Let's see what they have to say?

This should be fun

 

What exactly is it that went sideways in your life to read that, believe it wholly and then post it here? Seriously what broke you as a human being? You would be an interesting case study in how the human mind can be manipulated through propaganda and lies told repeatedly.

Edited August 19, 2021 by UpperWestside

[mchookem 16325]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

not surprisingly, the original CR thread on this topic was littered with 'lefty idiots' that were critical of biden's handling of this withdrawal. 

but obviously facts like that have no place in your world view.

 

1 hour ago, Willfully Horn said:

Watching the news last night, one thing the center left media is able to do is criticize a center left President. Beats the ankle grabbing the Right performs.

neither of these points can penetrate the rage and hate here. as i said last night, it's rendered some incapable of even seeing areas of agreement, much less acknowledging and accepting them. 

not just here - all over. this is what will end us. 

ALL OR NOTHING, ALL HATE, ALL THE TIME. 

i mean hell, i pretty much felt that way about Trump, but at least i could and did acknowledge (on this board even) that my personal revulsion and disgust with his very character and every action prevented me from even appreciating the slight good he might do (i.e., cj reform).

that's called self-awareness. some have it and some don't. and if you're thinking I HAVE SELF-AWARENESS GOTDAMMIT...no, you really don't.  

[HiggyBaby 2529]

One of those killed clinging to the plane was just a kid

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58272740

[HiggyBaby 2529]

DP

Edited August 19, 2021 by HiggyBaby

[We’reTexas 1473]

1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

What exactly is it that went sideways in your life to read that, believe it wholly and then post it here? Seriously what broke you as a human being? You would be an interesting case study in how the human mind can be manipulated through propaganda and lies told repeatedly.

My favorite was when baby Gaga began copying and pasting Facebook posts as arguments in the CRT thread. 

[Zeus 6018]

https://nationalfile.com/twitter-frog-account-successfully-negotiates-with-taliban-to-secure-safety-of-spanish-diplomats-after-government-fails/

 

[bad_teammate 13193]

we had frog avatars running the White House for 4 years, so this is normal

[Captainant 27647]

26 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

we had frog avatars running the White House for 4 years, so this is normal

man, it really sucks that the Pepe artist has had his work subverted and co-opted by neckbeards and fascists

[Bojack 2077]

What happened to TexasHammer?  Wasn't that the name of the poster that had a Pepe the Frog avatar on the old site?

[AUS-97HORN 11757]

18 hours ago, Lobo said:

Fucking up military exits is the most bi-partisan thing about the United States.  I'm talking about conflicts overseas, not all of our campaigns with Native Americans.  'Cause our exit was lovely, it was our overextended stay that pissed people off.  

Vietnam exit was awful.  We all know the story there.  That's LBJ, Nixon, and Ford

 

I brought this over from the new DT version of the thread because this is clearly a political response.

LBJ and Nixon, hell yes, they fucked it up, both of them.

 

but honest fucking question, HTF you gonna blame Ford when he only took office Aug 9, '74 and Saigon fell Apr 30, '75?

he was literally only President for about 264 days and we had pulled out all of our combat troops back in March of '73.

the only troops left in Saigon were our advisors and the small contingent of embassy marines.

The South collapsed after the fall of the central Highlands around late March '75.  The country fell a month later.     That wasnt on Ford at all.  

The only thing he could have done was send in more troops in late March and there is no fucking way the US congress or the American people would have accepted that,  and since we didnt have any heavy equipment other than what the ARVN's would have had, our soldiers would have been slaughtered.   Yeah they would have put up a fight that probably would have delayed the fall of the Capitol for a few months, but that wouldnt have solved anything, other than get another 1,000-5,000 Americans killed and another 20,000 wounded...

[DDD Dad 14332]

29 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

 

I brought this over from the new DT version of the thread because this is clearly a political response.

LBJ and Nixon, hell yes, they fucked it up, both of them.

 

but honest fucking question, HTF you gonna blame Ford when he only took office Aug 9, '74 and Saigon fell Apr 30, '75?

he was literally only President for about 264 days and we had pulled out all of our combat troops back in March of '73.

the only troops left in Saigon were our advisors and the small contingent of embassy marines.

The South collapsed after the fall of the central Highlands around late March '75.  The country fell a month later.     That wasnt on Ford at all.  

The only thing he could have done was send in more troops in late March and there is no fucking way the US congress or the American people would have accepted that,  and since we didnt have any heavy equipment other than what the ARVN's would have had, our soldiers would have been slaughtered.   Yeah they would have put up a fight that probably would have delayed the fall of the Capitol for a few months, but that wouldnt have solved anything, other than get another 1,000-5,000 Americans killed and another 20,000 wounded...

OK I'll play.

"HTF you gonna blame Ford when he only took office Aug 9, '74 and Saigon fell Apr 30, '75?"

HTF you gonna blame Biden when he only took office Jan 20, '21 and Kabul fell Aug 15 '21?

"he was literally only President for about 264 days and we had pulled out all of our combat troops back in March of '73."

He was literally only President for about 207 days and we had pulled out all but 2,500 troops back in January of '21.

[TwiceHorn 31447]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:01 AM, BabaYaga said:

Seems The Atlantic is now piling on.  Let's see what they have to say?

This should be fun

 

I posted that article here or elsewhere.

It's not the "official position" of The Atlantic.

The Atlantic publishes a diversity of viewpoints and gives quite a bit of time to those, like Wehner, with pretty serious GOP bona fides, and often the attendant biases.

That said, I think that it does point up some interesting things about Biden, like a certain perhaps expediency on issues like this borne of being a lifetime politician.

I think Biden committed to taking the political hit on this and basically stopped thinking about it.  So he and his staff quit riding herd on the generals, who probably ranged in opinion from grudging acceptance to fuck this, I'll show them.

I have one pretty grave issue about that article and that is when Wehner refers to a "more serious America."  I don't think such a thing ever existed.  Sure, we did great things during WWII, but that's not even slightly comparable to any of the succeeding wars and police actions.   If it's not a war for our existence or way of life, or that of a significant chunk of the world, Americans don't give a fuck and never have.  Which is not to say that America is not less serious than in the past in some or many respects.  I just don't think you can use treatment of minor foreign wars as an exemplar.

Edited August 20, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Guest Lobo]

51 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

 

I brought this over from the new DT version of the thread because this is clearly a political response.

LBJ and Nixon, hell yes, they fucked it up, both of them.

 

but honest fucking question, HTF you gonna blame Ford when he only took office Aug 9, '74 and Saigon fell Apr 30, '75?

he was literally only President for about 264 days and we had pulled out all of our combat troops back in March of '73.

the only troops left in Saigon were our advisors and the small contingent of embassy marines.

The South collapsed after the fall of the central Highlands around late March '75.  The country fell a month later.     That wasnt on Ford at all.  

The only thing he could have done was send in more troops in late March and there is no fucking way the US congress or the American people would have accepted that,  and since we didnt have any heavy equipment other than what the ARVN's would have had, our soldiers would have been slaughtered.   Yeah they would have put up a fight that probably would have delayed the fall of the Capitol for a few months, but that wouldnt have solved anything, other than get another 1,000-5,000 Americans killed and another 20,000 wounded...

Same reason I think bush gets an unfair amount of blame for 9/11.  
 

those guys didn’t concoct that plan and start pilot lessons on January 20th, 2001.  

[AUS-97HORN 11757]

14 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

OK I'll play.

"HTF you gonna blame Ford when he only took office Aug 9, '74 and Saigon fell Apr 30, '75?"

HTF you gonna blame Biden when he only took office Jan 20, '21 and Kabul fell Aug 15 '21?

"he was literally only President for about 264 days and we had pulled out all of our combat troops back in March of '73."

He was literally only President for about 207 days and we had pulled out all but 2,500 troops back in January of '21.

 

Holy fuck its not even close to the same thing.     Ford didnt actively cause the impetus for the fall

 

Everyone, EVERY FUCKING ONE of the networks, CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS,  ALL OF THEM are calling this the worst foreign relation fuckup by a President since maybe Regan & Iran Contra.

Ford didnt push to get all troops out of the country by some bullshit anniversary date like Biden did. 

IF....  IF Biden had told everyone in April or early May of this year that any US helpers or American citizens didnt want to stay in an independently run Afghan to be ready to leave by.... Sept 11th for example.... he would have had a leg to stand on regarding this humanitarian disaster.  yes, we would have left earlier than Sept 11.... but obviously telling everyone the exact date we would be leaving would be stupid.... so you keep operational security, tell the folks to get to Kabul and yeah, only 15-20% of them might have taken that offer, BUT WE WOULNT BE SCRAMBLING to be shown as doing "something" now.

 

I have NO ISSUE with getting our troops and people out and letting Afghan do whatever.   But the order of operations for doing that should have been ( as already been said multiple fucking times)

get all american civilians out who can get out from the outlining provinces first. 

Then get all heavily in danger afghans out of the country

then get as much ammo and heavy equipment out ( or blow it up),

then pull back to Kabul

then get everyone else out overnight.

 

he did that fucking backwards.  and it was HIS CALL ALONE.... he conveniently ignored most warnings from intel and military that the Afghans didnt give a fuck about defending their country.

 

Yeah all 3 previous presidents got Biden to that point... but He alone took the final unrecommend step to abandon everyone and everything overnight.

[DDD Dad 14332]

 
Holy fuck its not even close to the same thing.     Ford didnt actively cause the impetus for the fall
 
Everyone, EVERY FUCKING ONE of the networks, CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS,  ALL OF THEM are calling this the worst foreign relation fuckup by a President since maybe Regan & Iran Contra.
Ford didnt push to get all troops out of the country by some bullshit anniversary date like Biden did. 
IF....  IF Biden had told everyone in April or early May of this year that any US helpers or American citizens didnt want to stay in an independently run Afghan to be ready to leave by.... Sept 11th for example.... he would have had a leg to stand on regarding this humanitarian disaster.  yes, we would have left earlier than Sept 11.... but obviously telling everyone the exact date we would be leaving would be stupid.... so you keep operational security, tell the folks to get to Kabul and yeah, only 15-20% of them might have taken that offer, BUT WE WOULNT BE SCRAMBLING to be shown as doing "something" now.
 
I have NO ISSUE with getting our troops and people out and letting Afghan do whatever.   But the order of operations for doing that should have been ( as already been said multiple fucking times)
get all american civilians out who can get out from the outlining provinces first. 
Then get all heavily in danger afghans out of the country
then get as much ammo and heavy equipment out ( or blow it up),
then pull back to Kabul
then get everyone else out overnight.
 
he did that fucking backwards.  and it was HIS CALL ALONE.... he conveniently ignored most warnings from intel and military that the Afghans didnt give a fuck about defending their country.
 
Yeah all 3 previous presidents got Biden to that point... but He alone took the final unrecommend step to abandon everyone and everything overnight.

And yet the outgoing president had agreed to an even earlier date, May 1.

Look, I’m not saying Biden didn’t make some bad calls, but the hand he was dealt was pretty shitty. There wasn’t going to be a “good” outcome that wouldn’t have involved substantially more troops going in. Just like you said about Ford.

So back off the righteous indignation. My take isn’t as bad as you imply.

[Js1 85307]

Quote

Everyone, EVERY FUCKING ONE of the networks, CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS,  ALL OF THEM are calling this the worst foreign relation fuckup by a President since maybe Regan & Iran Contra.

That's some good ole recency bias

[mchookem 16325]

50 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

That said, I think that it does point up some interesting things about Biden, like a certain perhaps expediency on issues like this borne of being a lifetime politician.

I think Biden committed to taking the political hit on this and basically stopped thinking about it.  So he and his staff quit riding herd on the generals, who probably ranged in opinion from grudging acceptance to fuck this, I'll show them.

 

yeah... after processing this for a few days, i feel like this is pretty much exactly what happened...Joe said 'fuck it, we're out, make it happen and i don't really care how just get it done.'

[Willfully Horn 8005]

1 hour ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Everyone, EVERY FUCKING ONE of the networks, CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS,  ALL OF THEM are calling this the worst foreign relation fuckup by a President since maybe Regan & Iran Contra.

ALL OF THEM  can’t be wrong. I guess 9/11 wasn’t a foreign policy fuck up.

I remember Bush paid scant attention to the Clinton team during the transition. He missed the al-Q memo. Now we hear there was an elaborate Afghan plan at work inside the Trump administration. Of course, the Trump team also refused to engage with a Biden transition. (The all-Q memo)?

Joe, to his credit, and in chiaroscuro contrast with the former fuck up, knows the buck stops with him.-

Edited August 20, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Claro

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

Same reason I think bush gets an unfair amount of blame for 9/11.  

Clinton warned Bush that the greatest threat to America was radical Islamic terrorism and Bush ignored him. Bush received a PDB stating that bin Laden was determined to strike in the U.S. and he did nothing about it. Nothing. A reasonable person might have told his National Security Adviser to go talk to the FBI and the CIA and see what they knew. Those institutions didn’t have a habit of sharing information but a qualified NSA could’ve put the pieces together if she were doing her job. The information was available and we could’ve kept the terrorists from boarding those flights if Bush had taken the warnings seriously 

I don’t think Bush ever got enough blame for 9/11 happening. He mostly got a pass because, ‘No one could have seen that coming,’ or, ‘No one could have imagined such a thing.’ And a nation in trauma bought American flags and banded together in nationalist unity instead of ever questioning our Commander in Chief.

Then Bush let bin Laden and al-Qaeda escape Tora Bora, he squandered all that goodwill in the U.S. and around the world with the fiasco in Iraq, and gave us the bloated bureaucracy of the DHS to cover up his biggest mistake.

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

1 hour ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Everyone, EVERY FUCKING ONE of the networks, CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS,  ALL OF THEM are calling this the worst foreign relation fuckup by a President since maybe Regan & Iran Contra.

No they’re not.

[mchookem 16325]

6 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Now we hear there was an elaborate Afghan plan at work inside the Trump administration. Of course, the Trump team also refused to engage with a Biden transition. (The all-Q memo)?

holy shit i had forgotten all about this! motherfuckers. 😡

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

5 minutes ago, mchookem said:

holy shit i had forgotten all about this! motherfuckers. 😡

That was no surprise after they completely ignored everything the Obama transition team offered them. They were a bunch of unqualified political amateurs playing government and thinking they knew better for no earthly reason. They couldn’t have offered anything useful in the transition anyway because they hadn’t learned anything after four years of producing a reality tv show masquerading as a presidential administration. 

[Bateshorn 9927]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I posted that article here or elsewhere.

It's not the "official position" of The Atlantic.

The Atlantic publishes a diversity of viewpoints and gives quite a bit of time to those, like Wehner, with pretty serious GOP bona fides, and often the attendant biases.

That said, I think that it does point up some interesting things about Biden, like a certain perhaps expediency on issues like this borne of being a lifetime politician.

I think Biden committed to taking the political hit on this and basically stopped thinking about it.  So he and his staff quit riding herd on the generals, who probably ranged in opinion from grudging acceptance to fuck this, I'll show them.

I have one pretty grave issue about that article and that is when Wehner refers to a "more serious America."  I don't think such a thing ever existed.  Sure, we did great things during WWII, but that's not even slightly comparable to any of the succeeding wars and police actions.   If it's not a war for our existence or way of life, or that of a significant chunk of the world, Americans don't give a fuck and never have.  Which is not to say that America is not less serious than in the past in some or many respects.  I just don't think you can use treatment of minor foreign wars as an exemplar.

Also, Pete Werner is a traditional conservative speech writing hack.  The exact type of former Bushie who should have the common sense to keep his fucking pie hole shut, given his role in propagandizing and boostering both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

[TwiceHorn 31447]

1 hour ago, mchookem said:

yeah... after processing this for a few days, i feel like this is pretty much exactly what happened...Joe said 'fuck it, we're out, make it happen and i don't really care how just get it done.'

What's odd about it, and another thing that doesn't strike me as "right" about that article is the implication that Biden lacks empathy (for the Afghan people, or others similarly situated).

He's flawed, for sure, but I wouldn't immediately ring him up for lack of empathy.  But maybe that's another facet of being a lifelong politician:  you've faked sincerity and empathy for so long, you have a deficit of the real thing.

Maybe also it is a by-product of delegation to trusted staff.  A guy like him doesn't make it this long in politics without the ability to delegate early and often.  He may have fucked up pretty bad by trusting his staff and the military to do this in a non-embarrassing way.

Maybe it's just a blind spot about foreign matters beyond how they affect his political standing.

We sit here and judge him for "lack of competence" on this, but it's not his competence on the line, really.  About the most he could do is take advice, choose a path, and let the military execute.  I don't think anyone would have deliberately chosen this path.

Edited August 20, 2021 by TwiceHorn

['stache 21802]

1 hour ago, mchookem said:

yeah... after processing this for a few days, i feel like this is pretty much exactly what happened...Joe said 'fuck it, we're out, make it happen and i don't really care how just get it done.'

No, I think they (Biden as conveyed to him by his military people) legitimately believed that the Afghan army we trained would stand up at least long enough to complete the withdrawal. I genuinely think they were surprised that they just rolled over within a matter of hours. And I don't think Biden can have gone through the struggles he has in his personal life and emerge without genuine empathy regardless of how long he's been an elected official. I think he is seriously surprised and heartbroken about how this has played out, and that nothing can change that we need to follow through.

I do think that this will be out of the news cycle by October. The troops we have there will ensure that we get all of the Americans and allies out that we need and it was pretty much understood that the Taliban would take over eventually. Trump openly praised them with Pence and company standing right by him on the podium. 

It's been messier than expected, but Americans aren't dying and will get home. The Afghan people will suffer, but that is just unavoidable. Like I've said earlier in the thread, we can help with by offering asylum. But make no mistake, they (the gqp) will make it a bad thing to accept refugees. They will, as usual, argue out both sides of their mouths, and will keep getting elected, because they're voters have no interest in intellectual honesty and have zero integrity.

[BabaYaga 15290]

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

And yet the outgoing president had agreed to an even earlier date, May 1.

LOL, Biden tore up virtually every other Trump put in place that WASN'T ratified by congress.  As Trump tore up the Iran dean, Biden was under ZERO obligation to do jack shit with this he inherited from Trump.....because it also wasn't binding.  

[The Ace of Aces 5181]

I love the mouthbreathers saying this is the worst foreign policy thing in decades. This isn't a top 10 (or more) worst foreign policy thing in the past 5 years, and in a year won't even be remembered. Trump fucked up the Iran deal, the Paris Climate Accord, let Putin go rogue all over Syria and Ukraine, coddled North Korea, etc. That fuck called Africa "shithole" counties but yes, agreeing to leave a country that Trump himself signed a deal with the Taliban directly is "the worst decision ever." 

Give me a goddamn break. 

[Bateshorn 9927]

52 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What's odd about it, and another thing that doesn't strike me as "right" about that article is the implication that Biden lacks empathy (for the Afghan people, or others similarly situated).

He's flawed, for sure, but I wouldn't immediately ring him up for lack of empathy.  But maybe that's another facet of being a lifelong politician:  you've faked sincerity and empathy for so long, you have a deficit of the real thing.

Maybe also it is a by-product of delegation to trusted staff.  A guy like him doesn't make it this long in politics without the ability to delegate early and often.  He may have fucked up pretty bad by trusting his staff and the military to do this in a non-embarrassing way.

Maybe it's just a blind spot about foreign matters beyond how they affect his political standing.

We sit here and judge him for "lack of competence" on this, but it's not his competence on the line, really.  About the most he could do is take advice, choose a path, and let the military execute.  I don't think anyone would have deliberately chosen this path.

I absolutely think there is something to after he overruled the military on this, they did the bare minimum to fulfill his order. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Bateshorn

[mchookem 16325]

i've had bosses like that, 'just get it done'. hell, i've used that tactic as a boss. 

it could sometimes help, if the team has been stuck in stasis, 'analysis paralysis', endless 'what ifs' and 'what abouts'.

the risk is, frequently things turn very messy. 

sounds familiar. 

i have no way of knowing what the plan was, who made it, etc. it was clearly very flawed...we haven't yet seen if it will be completely disastrous, despite the histrionics right now. it very easily could be, takes just one errant shot...

[sidis 9825]

2 hours ago, Js1 said:

That's some good ole recency bias

 

2 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

 

Holy fuck its not even close to the same thing.     Ford didnt actively cause the impetus for the fall

 

Everyone, EVERY FUCKING ONE of the networks, CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS,  ALL OF THEM are calling this the worst foreign relation fuckup by a President since maybe Regan & Iran Contra.

Ford didnt push to get all troops out of the country by some bullshit anniversary date like Biden did. 

IF....  IF Biden had told everyone in April or early May of this year that any US helpers or American citizens didnt want to stay in an independently run Afghan to be ready to leave by.... Sept 11th for example.... he would have had a leg to stand on regarding this humanitarian disaster.  yes, we would have left earlier than Sept 11.... but obviously telling everyone the exact date we would be leaving would be stupid.... so you keep operational security, tell the folks to get to Kabul and yeah, only 15-20% of them might have taken that offer, BUT WE WOULNT BE SCRAMBLING to be shown as doing "something" now.

 

I have NO ISSUE with getting our troops and people out and letting Afghan do whatever.   But the order of operations for doing that should have been ( as already been said multiple fucking times)

get all american civilians out who can get out from the outlining provinces first. 

Then get all heavily in danger afghans out of the country

then get as much ammo and heavy equipment out ( or blow it up),

then pull back to Kabul

then get everyone else out overnight.

 

he did that fucking backwards.  and it was HIS CALL ALONE.... he conveniently ignored most warnings from intel and military that the Afghans didnt give a fuck about defending their country.

 

Yeah all 3 previous presidents got Biden to that point... but He alone took the final unrecommend step to abandon everyone and everything overnight.

it also simply isn't true.  that is not what is being said by anyone not named sean hannity or those type of political creatures.

anyone that thinks this is a more calamitous foreign policy error than an unprovoked, offensive war in iraq in which between 150,000 and 200,000 innocent people died for absolutely no reason on top of the insane loss of combatant life and loss of funds is an utter and complete shit-for-brains.

people are engaging in histrionics because there is a panic-fueled situation in kabul that was inevitable the minute that we, as a nation, decided we were no longer interested in enforcing order in afghanistan.  it was always going to happen.  but so far...and hopefully it remains the case...the actual abuses have been relatively mitigated.  that will certainly end once we are officially gone but that was inevitable the day doha was signed.

the minute the doha agreements were signed, all should have been high-tailing their asses out of there.  anyone sticking around was foolish.  the problem is that it became a massively bureaucratic process that got goat-fucked to actually get out of there.  that said, i can't even be 100% incensed by that because one must be pretty damned careful when it comes to the process of allowing people in afghanistan to freely relocate to the united states without significant background processes.  in fact, if al-qaeda is smart, they will leverage this situation to slip a few people through the same panic-fueled process in hopes that shit gets missed while republican partisans are all engaging in their crocodile tear-filled screeching about a disorderly process.

['stache 21802]

9 minutes ago, sidis said:

 

it also simply isn't true.  that is not what is being said by anyone not named sean hannity or those type of political creatures.

anyone that thinks this is a more calamitous foreign policy error than an unprovoked, offensive war in iraq in which between 150,000 and 200,000 innocent people died for absolutely no reason on top of the insane loss of combatant life and loss of funds is an utter and complete shit-for-brains.

people are engaging in histrionics because there is a panic-fueled situation in kabul that was inevitable the minute that we, as a nation, decided we were no longer interested in enforcing order in afghanistan.  it was always going to happen.  but so far...and hopefully it remains the case...the actual abuses have been relatively mitigated.  that will certainly end once we are officially gone but that was inevitable the day doha was signed.

the minute the doha agreements were signed, all should have been high-tailing their asses out of there.  anyone sticking around was foolish.  the problem is that it became a massively bureaucratic process that got goat-fucked to actually get out of there.  that said, i can't even be 100% incensed by that because one must be pretty damned careful when it comes to the process of allowing people in afghanistan to freely relocate to the united states without significant background processes.  in fact, if al-qaeda is smart, they will leverage this situation to slip a few people through the same panic-fueled process in hopes that shit gets missed while republican partisans are all engaging in their crocodile tear-filled screeching about a disorderly process.

I'm starting to believe that dotard had no intention of actually following through. He would have been told about the difficulties and would have cowered out like usual. He would keep referring to it like his healthcare plan. "We'll get it done in about two weeks. Hey, did you hear about the mexican caravan bringing smallpox to the border!!!"

[wildcat09 29349]

28 minutes ago, The Ace of Aces said:

I love the mouthbreathers saying this is the worst foreign policy thing in decades. This isn't a top 10 (or more) worst foreign policy thing in the past 5 years, and in a year won't even be remembered. Trump fucked up the Iran deal, the Paris Climate Accord, let Putin go rogue all over Syria and Ukraine, coddled North Korea, etc. That fuck called Africa "shithole" counties but yes, agreeing to leave a country that Trump himself signed a deal with the Taliban directly is "the worst decision ever." 

Give me a goddamn break. 

Anyone saying that leaving Afghanistan is a bigger foreign policy disaster than invading Iraq should be thrown into an oubliette.

[Captainant 27647]

26 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'm starting to believe that dotard had no intention of actually following through. He would have been told about the difficulties and would have cowered out like usual. He would keep referring to it like his healthcare plan. "We'll get it done in about two weeks. Hey, did you hear about the mexican caravan bringing smallpox to the border!!!"

Chris Miller (secdef under trump) said in an interview that the policy was actually a “play” that masked the Trump administration’s true intentions: to convince Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to quit or accept a bitter power-sharing agreement with the Taliban, and to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan for counterrorism missions.

 

[Nolacycling 893]

I feel that if we had stayed in Afghanistan for another 20 years or so, we could have built an Afghan army that would have slowed down the Taliban advance quite a bit more 

John Cleese

[Nolacycling 893]

How many of these guys went home and put on their alternative uniform hanging  in the closet?

[cactusflinthead 27598]

 

Did you catch that? She worked for Pence.

That wretched fuckhead Miller is why they didn't start this process sooner.

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

19 hours ago, AUS-97HORN said:

Everyone, EVERY FUCKING ONE of the networks, CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS,  ALL OF THEM are calling this the worst foreign relation fuckup by a President since maybe Regan & Iran Contra.

Not according to @Muy Frio, who swears up and down the damn liberal media is treating Biden with kid gloves on this story.