Afghan War ending, foretold by The Onion 10 years Ago [DT thread ruined by politics]

[Brisketexan 104628]

28 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

20, 30,40, 50 years, the outcome of our adventure in Afghanistan was never in doubt. We don’t live there. The Taliban do. Eventually we’d get tired and leave and they’d take over again. They knew that. Every sane person knew that. Like the Taliban say, the U.S. might have the watches but they have the time.

There’s absolutely nothing surprising about what is happening in Afghanistan now. I’ve been saying for years that this is exactly what would happen whenever we decide to leave.

Bing-fucking-go.

The only fucking path in dealing with Bin Laden and AQ was to do what was necessary to kill the fuck out of them, and punish their supporters (yeah, Taliban, you were gonna catch some shit), by air and ground as necessary, and then GTFO.

"Nation-building" only works if there is a pre-existing nation (and Afghanistan is not that, never has been - it's a REGION, with multiple ethnicities and tribes of varying influence and area depending on the time) on which to build.  And, you know, a willingness of that nation to build.  Germany and Japan post-war?  Nations.  Good place to nation-build.  Afghanistan?  Not so much.

[Brisketexan 104628]

38 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Man, what's with the negative vibes....

waves, motherfucker.  WAVES.

[hpslugga 4044]

1 hour ago, Chad Fuck said:

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?

The Taliban offered Bin Laden to the US via a third party on condition that the US provide evidence that he had some sort of complicity in 9/11. They never did. In fact, they explicitly refused the offer. Furthermore, by April of 2002, fully 7 months after the attacks and 6 months after the invasion, Robert Mueller was on record in the press saying "investigators believe the idea of the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon came from al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan, the actual plotting was done in Germany, and the financing came through the United Arab Emirates from sources in Afghanistan…We think the masterminds of it were in Afghanistan, high in the al Qaeda leadership."

"Investigators believe"..."We think"

That's not a justification.

[Degenerate Gardner 4081]

I can only hope that some of our former translators made it out with their families. Obviously all couldn’t flee due to being dead from the murderous reprisals and all.

 

[Blotto 23434]

4 hours ago, hookemATL said:

I would be more ok with it if we would win a war every once in awhile.  What is the streak up to now?  We are the Washington Generals of Armed Forces.

wait...oh ok.

Define "win". By certain metrics, I'm sure the miltary would claim we did win.  The bigger problem was we never had a good definition of what our ultimate plan was, other than some happy feelgood bullshit about libration, freedom, etc... We fucked around for  years with no real consensus on what it would even mean to find success. I get pissed off everytime I see this picture. Those incompetent dickbags couldnt even tell you what the misson was.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Blotto

[Chad Fuck 17566]

The Taliban offered Bin Laden to the US via a third party on condition that the US provide evidence that he had some sort of complicity in 9/11. They never did. In fact, they explicitly refused the offer. Furthermore, by April of 2002, fully 7 months after the attacks and 6 months after the invasion, Robert Mueller was on record in the press saying "investigators believe the idea of the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon came from al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan, the actual plotting was done in Germany, and the financing came through the United Arab Emirates from sources in Afghanistan…We think the masterminds of it were in Afghanistan, high in the al Qaeda leadership."
"Investigators believe"..."We think"
That's not a justification.

Is it your contention that the Taliban made that offer in good faith? That if we had provided evidence of OBL’s responsibility that they would have turned him over and not just moved the goal posts while learning a bit of our sources and methods?

Not sure I follow that line.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Chad Fuck said:

Is it your contention that the Taliban made that offer in good faith? That if we had provided evidence of OBL’s responsibility that they would have turned him over and not just moved the goal posts while learning a bit of our sources and methods?

Not sure I follow that line.

Yeah, that was not going to happen. Lie to the infidel.  Pretty much one of the most beloved quatrains in the Koran to many radical Muslims.

[hpslugga 4044]

2 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Is it your contention that the Taliban made that offer in good faith?

There would have been only one way to determine that: call their "bluff." The Bush administration obviously didn't think it was a bluff. 

2 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

That if we had provided evidence of OBL’s responsibility that they would have turned him over and not just moved the goal posts while learning a bit of our sources and methods?

Did it ever occur to you that the reason that Mueller said that was because that they weren't completely convinced of his involvement?

 

[Hagbard Celine 10763]

you are getting close to declaring wtc7 to be controlled demolition and that doesn't go down well around here

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

How much have we spent on the War on Drugs over the past 40 years?

[hpslugga 4044]

Just now, Hagbard Celine said:

you are getting close to declaring wtc7 to be controlled demolition and that doesn't go down well around here

The 9/11 Truth movement is an abject failure at humanity. 

[elfenix 34171]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

 

edit: i see this has been covered

Edited August 12, 2021 by elfenix

[hpslugga 4044]

Just now, Pato del Muerto said:

How much have we spent on the War on Drugs over the past 40 years?

Just in looking at everything connected to that, our military adventurism over the past 75 years, not to mention multiple bouts of economic retardation Trickle Down Economics, the amounts blown on those activities would cause a real fiscal conservative to lose sleep.

[DDD Dad 14252]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

One only needs to look at the win loss record of Afghanistan to know this:  you      just        don't         go        there.  It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

Seems like the Taliban is pretty good at conquering it.

[elfenix 34171]

25 minutes ago, Blotto said:

The bigger problem was we never had a good definition of what our ultimate plan was, other than some happy feelgood bullshit about libration, freedom, etc...

i'm old enough to remember condi rice & co bitching about clinton going into places with no clear goals or metrics

Edited August 12, 2021 by elfenix

[Macanudo 12928]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

And matching wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line!

Inconceivable!

[Lucid 3]

Not a waste! You've got to slap these colonials around every now and then to keep em in line

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

28 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Seems like the Taliban is pretty good at conquering it.

Well, that are Afghani for the most part,  so...

[Pig Bellmont 8692]

2 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

This.  Were we justified in going into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden?  Absolutely.  But mission creep into nation building in the Graveyard of Nations?  Destined to fail.  

We learned nothing from Vietnam.  Diving into other people's civil wars is a no win situation.

This ignores a 2000s era Bush Admin talking point that it was better for terrorists to fight US troops “over there” than for terrorists to attack Americans “over here”. 
 

Never mind the bullshit false equivalence- they also claimed they could defeat the idea of terrorism while water boarding people at black sites, so you know

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

1 hour ago, Chad Fuck said:

Is it your contention that the Taliban made that offer in good faith? That if we had provided evidence of OBL’s responsibility that they would have turned him over and not just moved the goal posts while learning a bit of our sources and methods?

Not sure I follow that line.

Yeah, that’s bullshit. Believers don’t betray their faith. 

[pacman 7330]

But the coffers of the private defense industry are full...

 

As Vietnam Veteran WD Ehrhart said, paraphrasing, the enemy didn't need to recruit. The American soldier recruited for them.

Edited August 12, 2021 by pacman

[Leeroy Jenkins 2393]

The real problem is that we fucked around with that shit hole for way too long and spent money on technology for that type of warfare while China spent money on technology to beat us.

They have caught us and even passed us in some areas. That should be a big concern.

We could have won. The world would not have liked the carnage that would have occurred.

Pakistan is also a ginormous factor in what is happening right now with the Taliban.

[Brisketexan 104628]

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/nation-world/us-troops-evacuate-kabul-embassy/507-d651b920-4ef7-4e66-b18b-26e59eb685bd

Guess we're trying to stay JUST ahead of another "choppers taking people from the embassy roof in Saigon" tableau.  Sigh.

[Pods 7530]

21 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

The real problem is that we fucked around with that shit hole for way too long and spent money on technology for that type of warfare while China spent money on technology to beat us.

They have caught us and even passed us in some areas. That should be a big concern.

We could have won. The world would not have liked the carnage that would have occurred.

Pakistan is also a ginormous factor in what is happening right now with the Taliban.

Winning would have been sending in US special forces at Tora Bora and bringing out bin Laden, then getting the fuck out. Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted to keep their powder dry for Iraq and let the Northern Alliance handle it. 

Failing that, we should have leveled the area and caved-in the cave system he was in. 

Stupid men made a stupid choice almost 20 years ago and we're all still paying for it now. 

[Covri 6231]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, the VN era even had a better soundtrack and shit.  Dammit.

Counterpoint:

 

 

['stache 21774]

And Sen. Inhofe in Oklahoma is on a rampage this week about Biden needing to spend more money on the military and how this is his fault. You've had two republicans over the last 30 years who did jack shit to "win" this thing, whatever that might have been. It's over. We can't fix everything. The money we spent protecting some lives in Afganistan would have unequivocally saved hundreds upon thousands maybe millions of lives in some of the third-world countries in Africa and elsewhere. That's just one of a bunch of examples of better use of funds (including paying off or reducing national debt which they pretend to care about when a democrat is in office). It's over guys, you lost, just accept it and find your oil somewhere else.

[Sawbonz 27436]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

One only needs to look at the win loss record of Afghanistan to know this:  you      just        don't         go        there.  It is THE most inconquerable country in the world, followed distantly by Russia, and then Asia.

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

 

edit: i see this has been covered

Yeah .......and truth be told my original post was unconquerable land, but I edited ....... poorly on 2 counts. I give it a C-for grammatical, and accuracy errors.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

8 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier.

 

Something from the British, looks like it's a tit on your head helmet days of yore?

[RomaVicta 29793]

Lessons we won't learn from this experience:

We shouldn't use warfare and imposing fantasies such as the easy creation of a democracy as cheap theater for the Americans watching on TV.

Warfare

We have this absurd delusion that our every effort is the same as helping liberate France from Nazi Germany. People love our boys! Well, we love watching the tanks roll and pulling our puds talking about the awesome daisy-cutter bomb or some badass Marine taking a pull on a Marlborough. We don't like hearing how the bomb didn't really achieve anything or that the Marine suffers severe PTSD; that'd be like sitting through the entire credit roll after a super-hero movie. BOR-ING.

This thread is about cost and the total cost of the conflict is actually going to be a multiple of the sum listed above. We had more than 2000 killed and more than 20,000 wounded.  More than 750,000 have served in Afghanistan (WaPost).

Roma, we know about the human cost. We thank these guys for their service!

That's all swell, but I'm sticking to dollars. A benefit is paid for soldiers who die. Soldiers who are physically wounded must be cared for for the rest of their lives in some cases. Those who served but were not physically wounded often have PTSD problems that lead to a shameful suicide rate: they require care as well. They all deserve better care and consideration than we give them.

The real cost of the the 9/11 wars? It's a multiple of the budget for combat. To wit: 

Quote

Through Fiscal Year 2020, the United States federal government has spent or obligated $6.4 trillion dollars on the post-9/11 wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and elsewhere. This figure includes: direct Congressional war appropriations; war-related increases to the Pentagon base budget; veterans care and disability; increases in the homeland security budget; interest payments on direct war borrowing; foreign assistance spending; and estimated future obligations for veterans’ care.

Brown University

But it's all fun as hell to watch. 

I first heard of these figures prior to one of the wars with Iraq. Like most people, I just thought of the cost of war as being what was spent during it. I'm guessing pro-war politicians don't want to harsh everybody's war buzz and anti-war politicians worry to much about their re-election chances.

US Grant's autobiography starts with an apt description of how a movement towards war is almost impossible to stop. I think he was talking about the Mexican war. It's the best part of the book and the only part I remember.

Freedom fantasy

The Americans show up, kill a bunch of people, set up an ad hoc government then hold an election. Next comes the self-congratulation and short period of happy delusion that we've made things better.

See? Everything worked out. Functioning democracy in place and the boys will be coming home soon. Except it never ever ever fucking ever works out that way.

This delusion is bad for us because it furthers the earlier delusion that we regularly make countries better by bombing the shit out of them, slaughtering civilians (but we don't mean to! Would that matter to you?), and then hiring Haliburton to come in for some sizable graft.

Girls will be educated now! People will be encouraged to speak up! This wonderful new government will hire a lot of people.

What happens to all of those guys now in Afghanistan? That shitty facade of government was doomed from the start. Now thousands are in mortal danger. Tens of thousands have become refugees.

Yay America!

I'll close this long ass post by telling you that I am actually hawkish when it comes to actual enemies. Use special forces or whatever to get at anybody meaning this country harm. 

Oh, I'm reminded of one more related point. We ousted the Taliban with Special Forces trained to work with locals. They made relationships and enjoyed a real trust. We pulled them out to deploy them in the Iraq fiasco. When they left so ended our best chance of a good outcome.

Sorry for the length. It's shit I've watched over and over. Finally I feel like I know something about it.

 

 

[ROFL BOX 6647]

38 minutes ago, 'stache said:

And Sen. Inhofe in Oklahoma is on a rampage this week about Biden needing to spend more money on the military and how this is his fault.

I have a friend whose now retired husband's AFSC (Air Force Service Code = job for enlisted) was essentially "MW&R".  He liked to say he was a high ranking enlisted Conciere for the E & O clubs.

Anyhow, for Afghanistan, they had him rolling around all sorts of crazy places in over there with a team of 10 covering his ass while he handed out Dead Presidents to locals to try & buy their favors.  Never had less than $ 3million on him, nothing larger than $ 50's (smaller bills = easier for the locals to try & make change).

& I am firmly on the side of team "Iraq Wasn't Needed & Cost us Afghanistan", meaning we *maybe* had a chance in Afghanistan if we didn't get distracted in Iraq.  Fuck you, Dubya...

To whit:  https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/boondoggle

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Lessons we won't learn from this experience:

We shouldn't use warfare and imposing fantasies such as the easy creation of a democracy as cheap theater for the Americans watching on TV.

Warfare

We have this absurd delusion that our every effort is the same as helping liberate France from Nazi Germany. People love our boys! Well, we love watching the tanks roll and pulling our puds talking about the awesome daisy-cutter bomb or some badass Marine taking a pull on a Marlborough. We don't like hearing how the bomb didn't really achieve anything or that the Marine suffers severe PTSD; that'd be like sitting through the entire credit roll after a super-hero movie. BOR-ING.

This thread is about cost and the total cost of the conflict is actually going to be a multiple of the sum listed above. We had more than 2000 killed and more than 20,000 wounded.  More than 750,000 have served in Afghanistan (WaPost).

Roma, we know about the human cost. We thank these guys for their service!

That's all swell, but I'm sticking to dollars. A benefit is paid for soldiers who die. Soldiers who are physically wounded must be cared for for the rest of their lives in some cases. Those who served but were not physically wounded often have PTSD problems that lead to a shameful suicide rate: they require care as well. They all deserve better care and consideration than we give them.

The real cost of the the 9/11 wars? It's a multiple of the budget for combat. To wit: 

Brown University

But it's all fun as hell to watch. 

I first heard of these figures prior to one of the wars with Iraq. Like most people, I just thought of the cost of war as being what was spent during it. I'm guessing pro-war politicians don't want to harsh everybody's war buzz and anti-war politicians worry to much about their re-election chances.

US Grant's autobiography starts with an apt description of how a movement towards war is almost impossible to stop. I think he was talking about the Mexican war. It's the best part of the book and the only part I remember.

Freedom fantasy

The Americans show up, kill a bunch of people, set up an ad hoc government then hold an election. Next comes the self-congratulation and short period of happy delusion that we've made things better.

See? Everything worked out. Functioning democracy in place and the boys will be coming home soon. Except it never ever ever fucking ever works out that way.

This delusion is bad for us because it furthers the earlier delusion that we regularly make countries better by bombing the shit out of them, slaughtering civilians (but we don't mean to! Would that matter to you?), and then hiring Haliburton to come in for some sizable graft.

Girls will be educated now! People will be encouraged to speak up! This wonderful new government will hire a lot of people.

What happens to all of those guys now in Afghanistan? That shitty facade of government was doomed from the start. Now thousands are in mortal danger. Tens of thousands have become refugees.

Yay America!

I'll close this long ass post by telling you that I am actually hawkish when it comes to actual enemies. Use special forces or whatever to get at anybody meaning this country harm. 

Oh, I'm reminded of one more related point. We ousted the Taliban with Special Forces trained to work with locals. They made relationships and enjoyed a real trust. We pulled them out to deploy them in the Iraq fiasco. When they left so ended our best chance of a good outcome.

Sorry for the length. It's shit I've watched over and over. Finally I feel like I know something about it.

 

 

You're not wrong.  Not by a long shot.

[Hookah Horns 3082]

Lot of parallels to Nam and Korea. Stop getting in fights you don't have the plan and/or will to win. 

[RomaVicta 29793]

9 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

I am firmly on the side of team "Iraq Wasn't Needed & Cost us Afghanistan", meaning we *maybe* had a chance in Afghanistan if we didn't get distracted in Iraq.  Fuck you, Dubya...

I didn't want to make my post any longer, but I've said the "maybe" part when lamenting the removal of Special Forces. I don't know that it was even a good chance their presence could have given us different and better results. But it was our best shot.

[staboner 4959]

5 hours ago, David Dennison said:

The Pentagon is a jobs program and a not-unsubtle way to goose the economy. Hardly a waste from the point of view of capitalists.

paging @Anastasis to the piping hot drone operated miltary industrial white phone

 

[Anastasis 23394]

3 minutes ago, staboner said:

paging @Anastasis to the piping hot drone operated miltary industrial white phone

 

Our economic and monetary system is built around military hegemony and the petrodollar.  Glad that Biden has stuck to the plan.  The IC will continue to plant stories in WaPo and others to ratchet up the opposition. They just have to be a little less ludicrous these days.  

[staboner 4959]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

Our economic and monetary system is built around military hegemony and the petrodollar.  Glad that Biden has stuck to the plan.  The IC will continue to plant stories in WaPo and others to ratchet up the opposition. They just have to be a little less ludicrous these days.  

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I didn't want to make my post any longer, but I've said the "maybe" part when lamenting the removal of Special Forces. I don't know that it was even a good chance their presence could have given us different and better results. But it was our best shot.

From a military board, one on which people get shot down bigtime for bullshit:

The test I always use for military intervention is “would I want my own son leading a platoon of Marines in that action?” In the case of any further involvement in Afghanistan, my answer is clearly “No!”

Edited August 12, 2021 by slorch

[ROFL BOX 6647]

Always relevant in these discussions:

https://www.cc.com/video/5i4rmi/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-tanks-but-no-tanks

[Underdog 28457]

The Metric System - Why we never fully committed to it baffles me.  

[InkaUtexas 25519]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier.

 

This was on the back of a T Shirt I traded for from a Brit Soldier from there PRT in Helmand. I wish I still had that shirt. 

[InkaUtexas 25519]

38 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I didn't want to make my post any longer, but I've said the "maybe" part when lamenting the removal of Special Forces. I don't know that it was even a good chance their presence could have given us different and better results. But it was our best shot.

Afghanistan needed to remain a SF type war. Once we started to look like an invading army we saw an increase in hostility. 

Was with my boss (retired SF O-6) when we saw Big Army coming along. He shook his head and said to me "we lost this fucking thing." 

Oh, and fuck the Drone program. That pissed off everyone in the country. And if so effective, why are we not able to blow the shit out of the Taliban mobile convoys? 

[JimmyJames 12271]

Bush, the neoconservatives, and the republicans didn’t kill osama bin Ladin because they didn’t want to. Wasn’t in their interests plus his family was close to all of them.

Obama was under no such constraints which is why bin Ladin was killed after Obama became president. What are the neocons gonna do? Bitch about it?

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

51 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

Our economic and monetary system is built around military hegemony and the petrodollar.  Glad that Biden has stuck to the plan.  The IC will continue to plant stories in WaPo and others to ratchet up the opposition. They just have to be a little less ludicrous these days.  

Quagmires are the plan, not the result. 

[Murfdogg21 4412]

I read yesterday that they started demanding lists of all unmarried women aged 14-45 in these towns they are conquering to take as sex slaves, when they aren’t executing surrendering Afghan troops and civilians. And they believe this is their holy work.

[Guest Lobo]

13 hours ago, South Austin said:

Would they ever call her again?

Trick question. There are no seafood restaurants in Afghanistan.  

[InkaUtexas 25519]

23 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Trick question. There are no seafood restaurants in Afghanistan.  

 no, but some great fishing in the rivers and lakes.

I met a US Navy Submariner at NATO HQ in Kabul one night. Maybe that is why he was there. I was drinking with the Macedonians Rapid Response group and we all had a good laugh at that. 

[Guest Lobo]

Had a good laugh at what?  

Also, dibs on Macedonian Rapid Response for my alt.taliban metal band name.  

[BearSchlong 8077]

From a military board, one on which people get shot down bigtime for bullshit:
The test I always use for military intervention is “would I want my own son leading a platoon of Marines in that action?” In the case of any further involvement in Afghanistan, my answer is clearly “No!”

What is your son doing now?

Mine is a month away from returning from Korea and rejoining his 82nd Airborne fellas at Bragg. He says he is in for at least 20.

[Party_Taco 3674]

Probably having a squid, especially a sardine, in a landlocked area. Guy likely had no business there other than R&R, hence the fishing comment.