murder rates

[Eskimohorn 5615]

Nope.  There's plenty of unexplained non narco violence in Mexico.  There are people mowing down crowds with buses in other countries.  Trains are blown up.  Serial killers do their thing.  There are mass shootings, machete-ings, decapitations, cannibalism, ritual sacrifices, and just plain evil all over the world, but but but "Evil AMERICA!!!"
"But it's different Cajun b/c I can come up with explanations!"
Yeah, ok.

Among developed nations, the US leads in murders, mass murders, and gun murders by a wide margin.

[Cajun 11675]

^^Keep running with all those qualifiers.

It's entertaining.

You really need to stick with that first one.  It's the secret sauce to America's "EVIL!!!"

Edited July 12, 2021 by Cajun

[Dahobbs 17447]

23 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

Among developed nations, the US leads in murders, mass murders, and gun murders by a wide margin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

US is #137 (ascending order) with 4.96 homicides per 100,000 people. We are just below Kenya. Rwanda is #108 with 2.52 per 100,000. The UK is #55 with 1.2 per 100,000. 

Other source comparing London to major US cities:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/18/world/london-us-cities-homicide-rates-comparison-intl-gbr/index.html

[Dahobbs 17447]

6 minutes ago, Cajun said:

^^Keep running with all those qualifiers.

It's entertaining.

You really need to stick with that first one.  It's the secret sauce to America's "EVIL!!!"

It was one qualifier, developed nations. We aren't evil. But we do have a fairly unique problem. 

[Cajun 11675]

It's a big one and it's very much up for debate.  China is considered a "developing" nation.

And lots of countries have unique problems.  We have people being cut into pieces alive with chainsaws and their skin being peeled off of their faces with Zacto knives by the bushel just a few hundred miles south.  Hundreds of thousands killed, and those are just the known ones.  THAT is a fairly unique problem.

But, hey, no pearl clutching b/c we can ascribe it to drug trade.

Yeah, ok.

[BabaYaga 15212]

39 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

Among developed nations, the US leads in murders, mass murders, and gun murders by a wide margin.

Take out Detroit, Baltimore, New Orleans, and Chicago and get back to us....

[Cajun 11675]

St. Louis too

You know, all the ones that give us the "Blue"s

[Dahobbs 17447]

9 minutes ago, Cajun said:

It's a big one and it's very much up for debate.  China is considered a "developing" nation.

And lots of countries have unique problems.  We have people being cut into pieces alive with chainsaws and their skin being peeled off of their faces with Zacto knives by the bushel just a few hundred miles south.  Hundreds of thousands killed, and those are just the known ones.  THAT is a fairly unique problem.

But, hey, no pearl clutching b/c we can ascribe it to drug trade.

Yeah, ok.

China's rate is .53 per 100,000 people (disclaimer with stats out of China) which is fairly consistent with Japan, .26, and South Korea, .60. 

The Americas in general have a much higher murder rate than any other area. But, the rest of the Americas aren't the richest nation on the planet. We are a clear outlier compared to other wealthy nations. It isn't like our rates are slightly higher than Germany, the UK, Poland, Canada, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Israel, or France. They are multiple times higher. We are higher than Chile, Turkey, India, Niger, Kenya, Iran, Egypt, Georgia, and Thailand. Our closest comparisons are Cuba, Kazakhstan, Sudan, and Zambia. I really don't understand why you take offense to recognizing this fact. It is unfortunate and odd. 

[Dahobbs 17447]

20 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Take out Detroit, Baltimore, New Orleans, and Chicago and get back to us....

 

9 minutes ago, Cajun said:

St. Louis too

You know, all the ones that give us the "Blue"s

You'll also have to take out Des Moines, Houston, Oklahoma City, Knoxville, Nashville, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Akron, Tulsa, South Bend, Miami, Jacksonville, Dallas, West Palm Beach, Beaumont, Milwaukee, Savannah, Augusta, Montgomery, Shreveport, Little Rock, Indianapolis, Atlanta,  Tuscaloosa, Cincinnati, Oakland, Philadelphia, Peoria, Kansas City, Dayton, Baton Rouge, and Birmingham, as all of them exceed 10 murders per 100,000 people. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/murder-map-deadliest-u-s-cities/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

In fact, Chicago has less homicides per capita than Memphis, Kansas City, Cleveland, and Baton Rouge. 

[BabaYaga 15212]

15 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 

You'll also have to take out Des Moines, Houston, Oklahoma City, Knoxville, Nashville, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Akron, Tulsa, South Bend, Miami, Jacksonville, Dallas, West Palm Beach, Beaumont, Milwaukee, Savannah, Augusta, Montgomery, Shreveport, Little Rock, Indianapolis, Atlanta,  Tuscaloosa, Cincinnati, Oakland, Philadelphia, Peoria, Kansas City, Dayton, Baton Rouge, and Birmingham, as all of them exceed 10 murders per 100,000 people. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/murder-map-deadliest-u-s-cities/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

In fact, Chicago has less homicides per capita than Memphis, Kansas City, Cleveland, and Baton Rouge. 

"Among developed nations, the US leads in murders, mass murders, and gun murders by a wide margin."

This is obviously a quote about aggregate numbers.  
 

[Dahobbs 17447]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

"Among developed nations, the US leads in murders, mass murders, and gun murders by a wide margin."

This is obviously a quote about aggregate numbers.  
 

I think it is actually ambiguous. But, ok? Yay, we lead both per capita and in aggregate numbers!

I don't know what point you think you're making. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Cajun 11675]

50 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

China's rate is .53 per 100,000 people (disclaimer with stats out of China) which is fairly consistent with Japan, .26, and South Korea, .60. 

The Americas in general have a much higher murder rate than any other area. But, the rest of the Americas aren't the richest nation on the planet. We are a clear outlier compared to other wealthy nations. It isn't like our rates are slightly higher than Germany, the UK, Poland, Canada, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Israel, or France. They are multiple times higher. We are higher than Chile, Turkey, India, Niger, Kenya, Iran, Egypt, Georgia, and Thailand. Our closest comparisons are Cuba, Kazakhstan, Sudan, and Zambia. I really don't understand why you take offense to recognizing this fact. It is unfortunate and odd. 

You miss the point completely.  Hint:  I wasn't talking about China's mass murder rate.  Government takes care of that quite nicely w/o the peons getting involved.  And it's not categorized as "mass murder".  Fuckin win/win!  See, it's all cool b/c millions of deaths there can be attributed to something.  How do you say it DA?  Oh yeah, YEA!!!  Pearl clutching avoided.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Cajun

[BabaYaga 15212]

8 minutes ago, Cajun said:

You miss the point completely.

He always does....

[Cajun 11675]

Just now, Deej said:

Having met many random dogs and random humans, they wouldn't be wrong. 

 Heroes DO NOT like your tone!

[Cajun 11675]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

He always does....

I don't think it's accidental.  He's obtuse where he needs to be.

[Dahobbs 17447]

15 minutes ago, Cajun said:

You miss the point completely.  Hint:  I wasn't talking about China's mass murder rate.  Government takes care of that quite nicely w/o the peons getting involved.  And it's not categorized as "mass murder".  Fuckin win/win!  See, it's all cool b/c millions of deaths there can be attributed to something.  How do you say it DA?  Oh yeah, YEA!!!  Pearl clutching avoided.

What are you talking about? I'm not providing stats for mass murder, just homicides in general. Again, the US has 4x or greater higher homicide rate than any other western nation. And it has a 8x rates compared to developed Asian nations. What pearls am I clutching? It is a fact, we have a much higher homicide rate than all of our economic peers or near peers. 

17 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Hmmm.

Imagine that.  Some more cities that give us the "Blue"s

Ah yes, the famous "blue" enclaves of Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Mobile, and Tuscaloosa.  

12 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Something very interesting about those cities.  A common thread.  Can't quite put my finger on it.

They are all cities. My point was relatively simple: you can't just pick and choose what parts of the US to include in the stats. They all count. And simply removing four cities from the stats (which you are totally not doing to make a stupid political point) wouldn't change anything. It is nationwide problem. We have more homicides per capita than other developed nations by a wide margin. And it isn't just major cities. You can move down the list to places like Midland and still find a murder rate that 3-4x larger than murder rates in other developed countries. 

[Helobious 9481]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Take out Detroit, Baltimore, New Orleans, and Chicago and get back to us....

 

1 hour ago, Cajun said:

St. Louis too

You know, all the ones that give us the "Blue"s

Quick math: those cities combined for 1,888 homicides in 2020, out of at least 22,000 homicides in the US last year. 8-9%.

[Dahobbs 17447]

Just now, Helobious said:

 

Quick math: those cities combined for 1,888 homicides in 2020, out of at least 22,000 homicides in the US last year. 8-9%.

Yeah, but if you take out all the cities, towns, and any other place where people live, then the murder rate would be 0. So let's go with that since it proves there is no problem. 

[Helobious 9481]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Yeah, but if you take out all the cities, towns, and any other place where people live, then the murder rate would be 0. So let's go with that since it proves there is no problem. 

St. Louis has actually never surpassed 275 homicides a year in their history. Pretty miniscule in regards to the nation’s total. Can’t imagine why Cajun wanted to include it. 

[David Dennison 18659]

2 minutes ago, Helobious said:

St. Louis has actually never surpassed 275 homicides a year in their history. Pretty miniscule in regards to the nation’s total. Can’t imagine why Cajun wanted to include it. 

It's a mystery.

[alincoln 2364]

The black male murder rate in the U.S. is almost as bad as the worst rates in the world (consistently in the high 30s per 100,000) and is getting worse.  The murder rate for the rest of the population is close to that of Eastern Europe.  The Asian murder rate approximates Western Europe.

[JimmyJames 12271]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's a mystery.

I’m having a difficult time figuring it out as well. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, alincoln said:

The black male murder rate in the U.S. is almost as bad as the worst rates in the world (consistently in the high 30s per 100,000) and is getting worse.  The murder rate for the rest of the population is close to that of Eastern Europe.  The Asian murder rate approximates Western Europe.

Well then. Let’s just ship all the black males somewhere else! Problem solved! 

[David Dennison 18659]

10 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Well then. Let’s just ship all the black males somewhere else! Problem solved! 

I can't imagine why our approach to criminal justice isn't working.

[Guest Lobo]

So bottom line is that our murder rate is okay for a western nation.  Not great, not terrible.  Like most places, the killer and the victim very often know one another.  Or knew one another.  

Where I think some of us pro-gun, anti-murder people start to question things is mass murder.  Don't get involved in gang warfare, don't run your mouth in South Chicago at 3am, and don't gravely abuse/shame your spouse and you're pretty much murder-free for life in any corner of this country.  It's the thousands of random victims (in aggregate) of mass murder events that typically have a 0% connection to the murderer.  That's where we are just an embarrassment to the world.  We are not going to fix murder rates, particularly in many cities.  We've always had it in this country.  What we could productively work on is cutting down on mass murderer events.  I dunno, seems like something we could make goals around.  We won't, because it's easier to talk about black-on-black gun violence in Chicago or New Orleans.  But I assure you, it's much easier than having the school shooting evacuation procedure with my 1st grader.  

"Why would anybody want to shoot me and my friends, daddy?"

"Because they could."  

[Dahobbs 17447]

15 minutes ago, Lobo said:

So bottom line is that our murder rate is okay for a western nation.  Not great, not terrible.  Like most places, the killer and the victim very often know one another.  Or knew one another.  

How do you figure? Again, we have a higher rate than Rwanda. What western nation is worse than us? Hell, what western nation is even close to our numbers? 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Biff Tannen 45498]

Rando thread in the CR

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Just now, Biff Tannen said:

Rando thread in the CR

Was "extracted" from a thread in DT I believe.

[elfenix 34171]

40 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Rando thread in the CR

 

39 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Was "extracted" from a thread in DT I believe.

it's what happens when the "Take it to CR" crowd goes CR, as they are wont to do.

[Hookah Horns 3082]

3 hours ago, Helobious said:

St. Louis has actually never surpassed 275 homicides a year in their history. Pretty miniscule in regards to the nation’s total. Can’t imagine why Cajun wanted to include it. 

St Louis proper is pretty small. If you compare the murder rate of the metro area to Chicagoland, they're pretty similar. 

[Eskimohorn 5615]

I have nothing further to add to this thread. The sky is blue and people want to argue there is no such thing as sky.

[Neonmoon 38127]

8 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

I have nothing further to add to this thread. The sky is blue and people want to argue there is no such thing as sky.

This pretty much sums up the status of our country. The internet has empowered stupidity. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

In the last decade or so, since I have become a criminal justice reform psycho, I have watched crime and murder rates, which is one of the primary arguments that opponents use, e.g. "we can't reform the system, crime rates are spiking!  Moar jail!"

About the only thing I can correlate crime to is social unrest.  If you can pinpoint an area of unrest, whether national or local, you can be reasonably sure that the crime rates will spike.  Pretty blinding glimpse of the obvious, but there it is.

One thing that's weird is that the US is in line and in many instances better with poverty rates than most of the rest of the world.  And that's even when "in-kind" benefits are not counted (meaning poverty rate calculated as percentage of income below mean, not taking into account non-cash benefits).

So there would seem to be another factor in play besides just poverty.

[capnamerca 571]

I don't understand OP's point (probably because this thread was extracted from another thread). "We have more murders" is a stat; what point are you making for which that stat is a defense? Are you saying that Americans are shitty people who just love a good murderin' on a Saturday night? Are you linking this to race? Did it start as a gun-control thing?

[DonkeyCigars 144]

24 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

In the last decade or so, since I have become a criminal justice reform psycho, I have watched crime and murder rates, which is one of the primary arguments that opponents use, e.g. "we can't reform the system, crime rates are spiking!  Moar jail!"

About the only thing I can correlate crime to is social unrest.  If you can pinpoint an area of unrest, whether national or local, you can be reasonably sure that the crime rates will spike.  Pretty blinding glimpse of the obvious, but there it is.

One thing that's weird is that the US is in line and in many instances better with poverty rates than most of the rest of the world.  And that's even when "in-kind" benefits are not counted (meaning poverty rate calculated as percentage of income below mean, not taking into account non-cash benefits).

So there would seem to be another factor in play besides just poverty.

It's resentment. Poverty rates in America are in line with the rest of the world, but wealthy rates are not. When you have half of the country living in a way that is an insult, and in your face about it, the only response left in a human is to disregard social mores to keep ones dignity.

Use any analogy you want, but the only reason one "breaks bad" or pivots to a "get rich or die trying" strategy is being worn down by resentment to a state of desperation where they cease to value even their own life-- their own existence overhearing how bad they stink.

Then there are the ones born into the culture of resentment which is so infected there is no hope. Child soldiers like what we saw in poor Louisiana in the 90's and Southside of Chicago now. They've never known anything different but violence and they learned their life has an expiration date already baked in, at an early age, to kill and be killed for the culture.

[hpslugga 4044]

22 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

China's rate is .53 per 100,000 people (disclaimer with stats out of China) which is fairly consistent with Japan, .26, and South Korea, .60. 

The Americas in general have a much higher murder rate than any other area. But, the rest of the Americas aren't the richest nation on the planet. We are a clear outlier compared to other wealthy nations. It isn't like our rates are slightly higher than Germany, the UK, Poland, Canada, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Israel, or France. They are multiple times higher. We are higher than Chile, Turkey, India, Niger, Kenya, Iran, Egypt, Georgia, and Thailand. Our closest comparisons are Cuba, Kazakhstan, Sudan, and Zambia. I really don't understand why you take offense to recognizing this fact. It is unfortunate and odd. 

There are those who value belief over acceptance.

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

22 hours ago, Cajun said:

St. Louis too

You know, all the ones that give us the "Blue"s

You've made a number of idiotic posts in this thread, but making a specific point to single out a city belonging to a state that hasn't gone "blue" in 24 years might take the cake.

[fuggled 576]

Use any analogy you want, but the only reason one "breaks bad" or pivots to a "get rich or die trying" strategy is being worn down by resentment to a state of desperation where they cease to value even their own life

The only reason people are desperate enough to break the law is because they resent rich people? Do you actually believe this?

I'm pretty sure we'd have law breakers even if all the rich people suddenly vanished. For some reason, this opinion of yours feels a lot like "they hate us for our freedom".

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Cajun 11675]

25 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

You've made a number of idiotic posts in this thread, but making a specific point to single out a city belonging to a state that hasn't gone "blue" in 24 years might take the cake.

LMAO

Ok, MENSA

Quote

Politics & Voting in St. Louis, Missouri

The Political Climate in St. Louis, MO is Strongly liberal.

St. Louis city County, MO is Very liberal. In St. Louis city County, MO 81.9% of the people voted Democrat in the last presidential election, 16.0% voted for the Republican Party, and the remaining 2.1% voted Independent.

In the last Presidential election, St. Louis city county remained overwhelmingly Democratic, 81.9% to 16.0%. 
St. Louis city county voted Democratic in every Presidential election since 2000

Maybe you should take a break from pointing out "idiotic posts".  Just a little tip.

No charge, it's on me. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Cajun
Sorry BlackLab, I'll show myself the door now, but that bit of aggy-esque "logic" was just something I couldn't let slide by.

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

5 minutes ago, Cajun said:

LMAO

Ok, MENSA

 

DEMOCRATS ONLY WIN WHERE PEOPLE LIVE is always such a weird flex.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

10 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

DEMOCRATS ONLY WIN WHERE PEOPLE LIVE is always such a weird flex.

So is "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY HOMELESS IN THE CITY?" Which, setting aside housing shortages, is a similar weird flex. As if being near resources that keep one alive in some form or fashion is such an alien concept that the asker of such a rhetorical(???) question seems incapable of discerning the extreme unlikelihood and logistics of bands of homeless people settling near Giddings.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

33 minutes ago, fuggled said:

 

 

The only reason people are desperate enough to break the law is because they resent rich people? Do you actually believe this?

I'm pretty sure we'd have law breakers even if all the rich people suddenly vanished. For some reason, this opinion of yours feels a lot like "they hate us for our freedom".

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 

 

I don't think he's that far off.  I think disillusionment with the "american dream," plus wealth inequality, drives some of this.

That is, our poor aren't any poorer than anyone else's, but they're more mad about it.

[YChang 3431]

34 minutes ago, fuggled said:

 

 

The only reason people are desperate enough to break the law is because they resent rich people? Do you actually believe this?

I'm pretty sure we'd have law breakers even if all the rich people suddenly vanished. For some reason, this opinion of yours feels a lot like "they hate us for our freedom".

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 

 

I mean that's clearly what Victor Hugo was trying do portray with Jean Valjean. He wasn't stealing bread to feed his family due to economic depression. He wanted to get over on those richy riches. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Some like the portray that the Democrat-led cities have the highest murder rates for cities. It's impossible to dispute that fact since most larger cities are run by Democrats. However not all large, Democrat-led cities are high on that list. NYC and LA are 63 and 80.

It got me thinking, what do most of the Democrat-led cities high on the murder list have in common? Most of them are in states led by the GOP. Not 100% but most. That got me wondering what are the states with the highest murder rate? They're almost exclusively led by the GOP. State #7 (NM) is the first Dem led state, and then the next is #12 (Illinois.)

Why are the Republicans leading so many states that are in crisis of intentional murders?

Disclaimer: DC and PR led the state/territory listing at #s 1 and 2 for murder rate, and DC is definitely Dem-run and PR would seem to be in terms of alignment.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 minute ago, YChang said:

I mean that's clearly what Victor Hugo was trying do portray with Jean Valjean. He wasn't stealing bread to feed his family due to economic depression. He wanted to get over on those richy riches. 

A solid foundation in literature, and not just the western canon, can provide a decent understanding of the human condition past, present, and future. It is the world's loss that so many voices through the ages were never heard.

[Cajun 11675]

31 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

DEMOCRATS ONLY WIN WHERE PEOPLE LIVE is always such a weird flex.

You’re really bad at this, but I applaud your desire.

[tchookem 3900]

I don't think he's that far off.  I think disillusionment with the "american dream," plus wealth inequality, drives some of this.
That is, our poor aren't any poorer than anyone else's, but they're more mad about it.

Disillusionment is a better word. Those other countries don't have a constant reminder that America is an exception, because here, you can accomplish anything as long as you pull those bootstraps hard enough.

In some communities, that disillusionment leads to gun violence, in others it leads to Trump votes. Both of course create more problems than they solve.

[workswithseed 2037]

17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't think he's that far off.  I think disillusionment with the "american dream," plus wealth inequality, drives some of this.

That is, our poor aren't any poorer than anyone else's, but they're more mad about it.

The thing is crime harms the poor more often since it's easier to steal from your neighbor, who you know legally can't have a gun to protect themselves or property. 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

22 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't think he's that far off.  I think disillusionment with the "american dream," plus wealth inequality, drives some of this.

That is, our poor aren't any poorer than anyone else's, but they're more mad about it.

Yea essentially this. Our poor aren't any poorer, they are just made to feel humiliation or indignity due to our social traditions (mythologizing and hero worship of the rich, shaming of the poor, etc.). It's basic human condition stuff-- you disrespect, shame, insult someone enough and you will create dynamics where violence and murder take on a pragmatism that make it look like tools in the toolkit. You devalue life and sell it cheap, you can't expect people to not start treating it as such. And that is America-- a violent city on a hill.

Edit to add: the disillusionment point is a really good one. Disillusionment is the last bastion before a complete loss of hope, which is when the real death numbers start to get registered.

Edited July 13, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[elguapo 4583]

18 minutes ago, Cajun said:

You’re really bad at this, but I applaud your desire.