Cuban Protests

[workswithseed 2037]

S

2 hours ago, GRHorn said:

nothing about the Cuba government suppression and killing of dissidents? I guess BLM found a group of police they like. 

Apparently 184 countries have no embargo on Cuba, but America is just so oppressing with not doing trade with Cuba. It's almost like Communism is the killer, and not the embargo.

6 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Awfully funny seeing DeSantis and the Florida government saying "Uh, well, that protest law we passed about blocking streets and destroying property...   It doesn't apply here because, um, you know."

It definitely was a dumb law.

[washparkhorn 9935]

2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Apparently 184 countries have no embargo on Cuba, but America is just so oppressing with not doing trade with Cuba. It's almost like Communism is the killer, and not the embargo.

You should read up on the Monroe Doctrine. 

But I think we agree that Covid, communism and our sanctions are the triad of problems plaguing Cuba at the present time.

[lmao 178]

On 7/12/2021 at 3:10 PM, bad_teammate said:

 

You don't hear about human rights abuaes in countries dominated by the American empire. 

[InkaUtexas 25521]

Yes you do if you know where to look. These protests are being covered. But the Colombian's do not have the voting block in the US to change elections. The Cubans do. 

[Red Six 131]

2 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Apparently 184 countries have no embargo on Cuba, but America is just so oppressing with not doing trade with Cuba. It's almost like Communism is the killer, and not the embargo.

The embargo is very far-reaching with how interconnected multinational corporations are. For instance, a credit card issued by a foreign bank that, so far as I know, is entirely contained within one non-U.S. country (e.g., Germany's Sparkasse) can get blocked because its payment system utilizes American bank infrastructure. It's not like American companies can backdoor their way into Cuba through a foreign subsidiary; Coca Cola France can't buy Cuban sugar for beverages there, InBev can't import Cuban rum, Altria's European and Asian subsidiaries can't import Cuban tobacco, etc. Technically, you're not supposed to even purchase a Cuban cigar in Mexico or Italy or wherever. The goal is for zero American dollars to make its way into the country (though that doesn't keep hard currency from arriving via foreigners). An American embargo will shut down an economy real quick.

ETA: That's not to discount the impact of communism. But the embargo is really the death knell.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Red Six

[InkaUtexas 25521]

56 minutes ago, Red Six said:

The goal is for zero American dollars to make its way into the country (though that doesn't keep hard currency from arriving via foreigners). An American embargo will shut down an economy real quick.

ETA: That's not to discount the impact of communism. But the embargo is really the death knell.

Agree, ant though reparations are a big boost to the economy they have no way of importing what they need. Would be nice to get rid of sanctions for sure. What would that take? 

[Zeus 5950]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CRU5kYYp-UU/

It's already been reposted of a repost on twitter but I enjoyed reading the comments on the original. I guess insta is like an even more dumb facebook/twitter but still slightly above youtube comment?

[F250 28691]

28 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Agree, ant though reparations are a big boost to the economy they have no way of importing what they need. Would be nice to get rid of sanctions for sure. What would that take? 

Didn't the U.S. squash remittance payments to Cuba several years ago?

[InkaUtexas 25521]

Yes they did from a few articles I read. By about 50% last year. But they still remain a large boost. Talking to a cuban friend he said the government takes about 15% of what comes in on the top. 

 

As many other developing nations Cuba depends on personal remittances as a sizable source of foreign exchange and support for families and small enterprises in the informal economy.  This does not escape the government of Cuba which tries to exert control over these flows of money.  Cuba is setting up special hard currency stores for appliances and electronic equipment as well as a complementary system for channeling foreign cash through its banking system.  The United States in turn changed regulations in September 2019 setting a limit on family remittances and banning donations to persons other than close relatives.

Cuba does not publish data on remittances in its balance of payments.  Central banks in most countries report remittances as part of receipts in the current account of the balance of payments.  Remittances come through both formal and informal channels.  Formal channels include money transmitters and international banks.  These are registered by central banks.  Other remittances come through unregistered firms and personal delivery.  Since there is no official public Cuban data on remittances estimates are derived from source country statistics.  I attempt to shed light on transfers to Cuba from the U.S. using a model of remittances estimated from U.S. and international data.

 

IMPACT OF NEW MEASURES IN THE U.S. AND CUBA

The U.S. Treasury (2019) announced in September 2019 a limit of $1,000 per person per quarter for family remittances to a single close relative in Cuba.  The average remittance estimated above falls below the new annual limit by about $750.  However active remittance senders are a fraction of the overall immigrant population, and the average effective remittance is well above the new limit set by U.S. Treasury regulations.  Hence the new regulation will have a negative impact on the flow of family remittances.

The new rules announced by the U.S. Treasury include further authorization of “remittances that encourage the development and operation of private businesses by self-employed individuals.”  This will induce new money to cuentapropistas and other self-employed persons.

Cuba’s cash crunch worsened in the last two years by the collapse of the Venezuelan economy and subsequent curtailment of oil shipments to the island.  New measures by the Trump administration will also hit tourism with the abrogation of cruise ship sailings and reduction in flights from the United States. All of this is moving the Cuban government to seek new ways to capture for the state some of the family transfers.

I cannot vouch for this group, but it is from an FIU study. 

https://www.ascecuba.org/remittances-cuba-revisited-impact-new-measures/

Edited July 15, 2021 by InkaUtexas

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Agree, ant though reparations are a big boost to the economy they have no way of importing what they need. Would be nice to get rid of sanctions for sure. What would that take? 

The acceptance of a small, but very concentrated voting block in a high electoral vote swing state. 

[GRHorn 105]

Lol

 

[F250 28691]

Fucking Black people are Communists and unworthy of equal protections under the law. - GRHorn

 

Just repeat that and save yourself the trouble.

Jesus what a fucking beating.

 

[956 Worldwide 34444]

Western Commies, LOL. Damn, they’re the worst. Rarely in the course of human events has there been an idea that has been so rigorously tested time and again across time and space and with different nuances and each time it is just a complete dog’s breakfast. Just failure so comically epic and obvious that it would be almost funny without the secret police and labor camps. All you have to do to see it in many cases is literally move yourself down the road a piece, observe that everything in your new locale is shit, that everything was fine a few miles away, and reflect on who was in charge until recently.

Anyway, I can kind of see the hard core nostalgists who lived it (“at least my family was large and in charge”) but the Western dilettantes are really terrible. And it’s always an endless stream of deflectionabout how it would all work but America, or how no one really tried hard enough, or how the one key insight I’VE gleaned wasn’t applied, or dumbest of all, the Tankies who will bend your ear about how those people getting squished by armor in Budapest were the REAL oppressors. 
 

They’re as bad as Objectivists. Worse, even, because Objectivists never got beyond the mental masturbation phase and don’t have a mountain of actual empirical evidence, refugees, and corpses to explain away by blaming corporate media.

[workswithseed 2037]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Fucking Black people are Communists and unworthy of equal protections under the law. - GRHorn

 

Just repeat that and save yourself the trouble.

Jesus what a fucking beating.

 

Holy shit, did he say that? Let me look again..... Nope. Fuck off. I didn't know BLM represented all black people. 

[workswithseed 2037]

52 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 Tankies 

I like the term that Destiny coined. Instead of boot licker, he uses tread licker.

[F250 28691]

Just now, workswithseed said:

Holy shit, did he say that? Let me look again..... Nope. Fuck off. I didn't know BLM represented all black people. 

The attempt to discredit black civil rights movements by associating them with the enemies of America (communist regimes) is an old tactic. What you should really ask yourself is why is there an attempt to discredit a civil rights group?

 

 

[GRHorn 105]

19 minutes ago, F250 said:

The attempt to discredit black civil rights movements by associating them with the enemies of America (communist regimes) is an old tactic. What you should really ask yourself is why is there an attempt to discredit a civil rights group?

 

 

Lol. BLM associate themselves with it. Their founders are “trained Marxists” in their own words and tweet Rest in Power for Fidel. Whether people think that is discrediting is up to them. 

[F250 28691]

9 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Lol. BLM associate themselves with it. Their founders are “trained Marxists” in their own words and tweet Rest in Power for Fidel. Whether people think that is discrediting is up to them. 

Yes, they are enemies of the people. Sure sure.

[Mole 4320]

When the BLM protests were going on, some folks wanted to turn it into a thing about communism. When Cuba is (hopefully) overthrowing their communist regime, we’re treated to a discussion of BLM in the Cuba thread. Weird, yet predictable.

Contrafact is a musical term describing a musical work based on a prior work. For example, jazz musicians would take the chords to popular tunes like “I’ve Got Rhythm” and write new melodies. The old Flintstones theme is an example of a tune based on “I’ve Got Rhythm.” Placing the familiar in a different context can be compelling.

I’m not sure if there’s a political science term to describe a similar concept, but it sure seems appropriate here.

[washparkhorn 9935]

9 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

Lol. BLM associate themselves with it. Their founders are “trained Marxists” in their own words and tweet Rest in Power for Fidel. Whether people think that is discrediting is up to them. 

CATO (libertarian organization) opinion: 

The embargo has been a failure by every measure. It has not changed the course or nature of the Cuban government. It has not liberated a single Cuban citizen. In fact, the embargo has made the Cuban people a bit more impoverished, without making them one bit more free. At the same time, it has deprived Americans of their freedom to travel and has cost US farmers and other producers billions of dollars of potential exports.  

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/15/cuba-us-trade-embargo-obama

https://www.cato.org/blog/republicans-congress-really-cuba-embargo

https://www.cato.org/commentary/no-embargo-harms-cubans-gives-castro-excuse-policy-failures-regime

[workswithseed 2037]

1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

CATO (libertarian organization) opinion: 

The embargo has been a failure by every measure. It has not changed the course or nature of the Cuban government. It has not liberated a single Cuban citizen. In fact, the embargo has made the Cuban people a bit more impoverished, without making them one bit more free. At the same time, it has deprived Americans of their freedom to travel and has cost US farmers and other producers billions of dollars of potential exports.  

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/15/cuba-us-trade-embargo-obama

https://www.cato.org/blog/republicans-congress-really-cuba-embargo

https://www.cato.org/commentary/no-embargo-harms-cubans-gives-castro-excuse-policy-failures-regime

Because it has would make the people of Cuba free? I would look at China for the comparison. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by workswithseed

[Gatorubet 30113]

I’m not sure if there’s a political science term to describe a similar concept, but it sure seems appropriate here.

Covfefe?

[washparkhorn 9935]

8 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I would look at China for the comparison. 

The first or second most powerful economy in the world?  That would certainly lift the people of Cuba up from abject poverty. 

Remember the ChiComs embraced the State Capitalism model based on the support we would provide. We had consultants flocking to China to sell everything in our cupboard and the vault. Sure, some made a shit-ton of money from China (with our militarily protected trade routes). Unfortunately, our greed led us to sell China everything they needed to hang us. That was a mistake. Cuba does not pose that threat. 

[bolverk 29401]

Shit ain't just black and white here (pun intended), and let's not be confused by labels.

As washpark rightly mentions, China isn't exactly a communist country anymore. While they remain an oppressive totalitarian regime, their current economy can rightly be defined as state capitalism.

Do Black Lives Matter? Yes, they do. And while I fully support the BLM movement that opposes violence carried out the State against its citizenry that so happens to target certain social, ethnic, and racial classes more than others, that does not mean I have to support every position the BLM organization also supports. So, while my interests and concerns align with them on some matters, that does not mean they align in all.

As such, I do think it's fair to call them out on their evident silence regarding State violence against citizenry in another country but can also agree that they're probably also right about the sanctions our government places on Cuba has also perhaps caused more harm than good.

#NuancedThinkingMatters #GreyMatterMatters #SOSCuba #ImmaGonnaSTFU

 

 

[jdhorn92 1538]

1 hour ago, Gatorubet said:

Covfefe?

Yo-sem-ite 

[bolverk 29401]

You want to quit it with your lame political shit posted in a news thread? Do you somehow feel like you get a pass because you're a chick who thinks you can follow in the footsteps of @Armybrat due to his "special status" as an old fart who somehow is allowed to get away with this kind of shit in the news forum?

There is a place, here, for this type of commentary, but y'all don't do it in the appropriate place because you're both, I assume, afraid to be challenged, or have an honest discussion, and only seek validation for your lack of self-control and your (totally not political, I swear!) posts.

AOC's and Hollywood folk's opinions rarely cross my mind on topics of major importance, but your obsessions are duly noted. Because of your commentary, I actually decided to see what AOC had to say on the matter and this is what I came across:

You may not like it, and that's okay, but don't pretend like she hasn't given this shit some thought or hasn't voiced support for the protests. Don't allow yourselves be manipulated solely by the headlines unless you just like to be a tool and score some internet points.

"We are seeing Cubans rise up and protest for their rights like never before. We stand in solidarity with them, and we condemn the anti-democratic actions led by President Díaz-Canel. The suppression of the media, speech and protest are all gross violations of civil rights."

 

[Gatorubet 30113]

You may not like it, and that's okay, but don't pretend like she hasn't given this shit some thought or hasn't voiced support for the protests. Don't allow yourselves be manipulated solely by the headlines unless you just like to be a tool and score some internet points.
"We are seeing Cubans rise up and protest for their rights like never before. We stand in solidarity with them, and we condemn the anti-democratic actions led by President Díaz-Canel. The suppression of the media, speech and protest are all gross violations of civil rights."
 

But…..she danced on a roof!

[mchookem 16222]

37 minutes ago, bolverk said:

You want to quit it with your lame political shit posted in a news thread? Do you somehow feel like you get a pass because you're a chick who thinks you can follow in the footsteps of @Armybrat due to his "special status" as an old fart who somehow is allowed to get away with this kind of shit in the news forum?

There is a place, here, for this type of commentary, but y'all don't do it in the appropriate place because you're both, I assume, afraid to be challenged, or have an honest discussion, and only seek validation for your lack of self-control and your (totally not political, I swear!) posts.

AOC's and Hollywood folk's opinions rarely cross my mind on topics of major importance, but your obsessions are duly noted. Because of your commentary, I actually decided to see what AOC had to say on the matter and this is what I came across:

You may not like it, and that's okay, but don't pretend like she hasn't given this shit some thought or hasn't voiced support for the protests. Don't allow yourselves be manipulated solely by the headlines unless you just like to be a tool and score some internet points.

"We are seeing Cubans rise up and protest for their rights like never before. We stand in solidarity with them, and we condemn the anti-democratic actions led by President Díaz-Canel. The suppression of the media, speech and protest are all gross violations of civil rights."

 

i mean Nicole has flat out admitted she's scared of posting in this forum 🙄

[956 Worldwide 34444]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

You want to quit it with your lame political shit posted in a news thread? Do you somehow feel like you get a pass because you're a chick who thinks you can follow in the footsteps of @Armybrat due to his "special status" as an old fart who somehow is allowed to get away with this kind of shit in the news forum?

There is a place, here, for this type of commentary, but y'all don't do it in the appropriate place because you're both, I assume, afraid to be challenged, or have an honest discussion, and only seek validation for your lack of self-control and your (totally not political, I swear!) posts.

AOC's and Hollywood folk's opinions rarely cross my mind on topics of major importance, but your obsessions are duly noted. Because of your commentary, I actually decided to see what AOC had to say on the matter and this is what I came across:

You may not like it, and that's okay, but don't pretend like she hasn't given this shit some thought or hasn't voiced support for the protests. Don't allow yourselves be manipulated solely by the headlines unless you just like to be a tool and score some internet points.

"We are seeing Cubans rise up and protest for their rights like never before. We stand in solidarity with them, and we condemn the anti-democratic actions led by President Díaz-Canel. The suppression of the media, speech and protest are all gross violations of civil rights."

 

AOC is full of shit on this. Her statement is the progressive rhetorical equivalent of pivoting to all lives matter and Black-on-Black crime after cursorily condemning the latest police killing. Incidentally, it’s pretty close to what Diaz-Canal said himself in softer terms— “hey, we made some mistakes but let’s all agree that the United States is the real baddie”—  and thus gives him further ammunition to duck meaningful reform. Reform that would, by the way, end the embargo, except for the fact that the Communist Party would rather watch every Cuban on the island starve than risk losing an actual election or saying goodbye to their secret police. And finally, it seems worthwhile to point out that she’s not being a very good Ally here and letting the Cuban protesters themselves express what they want and what is important to them.

You can even think the embargo is bad and should end while realizing that a moment when actual Cubans are out on the street demanding rights and reforms is not the moment to bring up that old saw, which is the one thing the criminals running that island want to talk about instead of ANYTHING else in the world. 

We all have blind spots and this is one of hers. She’s right about a lot of things, maybe most things. But the enduring soft pedaling for various left-wing Latin American strongmen is one she should really leave behind. 

[tx 3 putt 76396]

Do Cubans still get social security as soon as they show up on US soil ?

it was funny today listening to Micheal Barry and Rafael Cruz being A ok with Cubans illegally immigrating into the US. They were all for it 

[workswithseed 2037]

3 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

Do Cubans still get social security as soon as they show up on US soil ?

it was funny today listening to Micheal Barry and Rafael Cruz being A ok with Cubans illegally immigrating into the US. They were all for it 

 

On 7/12/2021 at 4:54 PM, workswithseed said:

Seeing as they would be political refugees, and the first border would be ours, id say no. 

 

[Pam Cummings 9582]

11 hours ago, bolverk said:

You want to quit it with your lame political shit posted in a news thread? Do you somehow feel like you get a pass because you're a chick who thinks you can follow in the footsteps of @Armybrat due to his "special status" as an old fart who somehow is allowed to get away with this kind of shit in the news forum?

There is a place, here, for this type of commentary, but y'all don't do it in the appropriate place because you're both, I assume, afraid to be challenged, or have an honest discussion, and only seek validation for your lack of self-control and your (totally not political, I swear!) posts.

AOC's and Hollywood folk's opinions rarely cross my mind on topics of major importance, but your obsessions are duly noted. Because of your commentary, I actually decided to see what AOC had to say on the matter and this is what I came across:

You may not like it, and that's okay, but don't pretend like she hasn't given this shit some thought or hasn't voiced support for the protests. Don't allow yourselves be manipulated solely by the headlines unless you just like to be a tool and score some internet points.

"We are seeing Cubans rise up and protest for their rights like never before. We stand in solidarity with them, and we condemn the anti-democratic actions led by President Díaz-Canel. The suppression of the media, speech and protest are all gross violations of civil rights."

 

Those posts asking about what "hollywood thinks" are mind numbingly stupid. Like, how the fuck would that be the thing you're concerned about, unless you were a mindless fucking troll.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

9 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

AOC is full of shit on this. Her statement is the progressive rhetorical equivalent of pivoting to all lives matter and Black-on-Black crime after cursorily condemning the latest police killing. Incidentally, it’s pretty close to what Diaz-Canal said himself in softer terms— “hey, we made some mistakes but let’s all agree that the United States is the real baddie”—  and thus gives him further ammunition to duck meaningful reform. Reform that would, by the way, end the embargo, except for the fact that the Communist Party would rather watch every Cuban on the island starve than risk losing an actual election or saying goodbye to their secret police. And finally, it seems worthwhile to point out that she’s not being a very good Ally here and letting the Cuban protesters themselves express what they want and what is important to them.

You can even think the embargo is bad and should end while realizing that a moment when actual Cubans are out on the street demanding rights and reforms is not the moment to bring up that old saw, which is the one thing the criminals running that island want to talk about instead of ANYTHING else in the world. 

We all have blind spots and this is one of hers. She’s right about a lot of things, maybe most things. But the enduring soft pedaling for various left-wing Latin American strongmen is one she should really leave behind. 

This is a good post.

[Nicole44 22027]

12 hours ago, bolverk said:

You want to quit it with your lame political shit posted in a news thread? Do you somehow feel like you get a pass because you're a chick who thinks you can follow in the footsteps of @Armybrat due to his "special status" as an old fart who somehow is allowed to get away with this kind of shit in the news forum?

There is a place, here, for this type of commentary, but y'all don't do it in the appropriate place because you're both, I assume, afraid to be challenged, or have an honest discussion, and only seek validation for your lack of self-control and your (totally not political, I swear!) posts.

AOC's and Hollywood folk's opinions rarely cross my mind on topics of major importance, but your obsessions are duly noted. Because of your commentary, I actually decided to see what AOC had to say on the matter and this is what I came across:

You may not like it, and that's okay, but don't pretend like she hasn't given this shit some thought or hasn't voiced support for the protests. Don't allow yourselves be manipulated solely by the headlines unless you just like to be a tool and score some internet points.

"We are seeing Cubans rise up and protest for their rights like never before. We stand in solidarity with them, and we condemn the anti-democratic actions led by President Díaz-Canel. The suppression of the media, speech and protest are all gross violations of civil rights."

 

You are mostly (and I do enjoy your posts) proving my point about the CR. There are thoughtful discussions and then there is getting triggered like Derka when someone insults Rick Barnes. Which happens quite a bit in the CR.
 

Unless you are all “I want to play tonsil hockey with Jen Saki…” or “AOC is my queen” or “ Biden and Harris are amazing” you get insulted (dumb poster/only reads headlines/moron etc…) called a TRUMP supporter (which is bs) and neg bombed for a mildly critical or a lame joke about any of the above people. Or you could post from a completely credible site that we all agree is credible and if it criticizes any of the above people or policies posters in the CR get triggered worse than Derka. That’s not discussion. That’s people being totally fucking unwilling to debate an issue.
 

I should not have made the joke I did. your point is duly noted and fair. I’ve largely been good about staying away from politics. My fault for the joke. It was lame anyway. I don’t get a special pass. My shit gets deleted all the time. 
 

Back on topic: I really wish there was a way to help. Other than retweeting and bringing tweets to the attention of others…it’s really frustrating to not be allowed or able to do much more. Like I could donate for supplies but they won’t get there. Just frustrating. I hope the people in Cuba know that the vast majority of Americans want them to succeed. 

[F250 28691]

16 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Because it has would make the people of Cuba free? I would look at China for the comparison. 

Yes, China is a good example of why engaging in trade is superior to embargos. The interdependence of the Chinese and American economies is a major peace keeper between the two. I would also add Vietnam to the list as well.

China runs a state capitalist system and it's lifted millions out of poverty and created a new class of economically empowered citizens. Currently the Chinese government is reacting to that empowerment by trying to remove the liberalization that lead from their economic growth. An interesting side note is that China several  years ago started cracking down on Marxists for criticizing the capitalism in China. 

Long story short, trade with Cuba would have been more beneficial for both Cuba and the United States. Nothing tears down Communism faster than the flow of wealth when economies are liberalized.

 

 

[StassneyHorn 6540]

31 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

You are mostly (and I do enjoy your posts) proving my point about the CR. There are thoughtful discussions and then there is getting triggered like Derka when someone insults Rick Barnes. Which happens quite a bit in the CR.
 

Unless you are all “I want to play tonsil hockey with Jen Saki…” or “AOC is my queen” or “ Biden and Harris are amazing” you get insulted (dumb poster/only reads headlines/moron etc…) called a TRUMP supporter (which is bs) and neg bombed for a mildly critical or a lame joke about any of the above people. Or you could post from a completely credible site that we all agree is credible and if it criticizes any of the above people or policies posters in the CR get triggered worse than Derka. That’s not discussion. That’s people being totally fucking unwilling to debate an issue.
 

Eye roll

[mchookem 16222]

5 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

Eye roll

[956 Worldwide 34444]

49 minutes ago, F250 said:

An interesting side note is that China several  years ago started cracking down on Marxists for criticizing the capitalism in China. 

 

 

 

Self-identified Marxists eating their own is hardly new or unique to China, it’s been pretty much baked into the cake of the “Revolution” since the very first one— and has repeated itself across time and space everywhere, ever since. And that particular phenomenon has been blamed on the capitalists/imperialists since the days of the NEP. 
 

The simple fact is that Marxism, or rather the various genera of single party Marixsm-Leninism that have actually existed in the world, is incompatible with the idea of freedom of conscience or human self-determination. It’s simply not possible for it to tolerate dissent and it must become authoritarian, totalitarian, or die. It’s amazing how many otherwise intelligent people keep getting seduced by the idea that we just haven’t followed the recipe exactly right. 

[F250 28691]

31 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Self-identified Marxists eating their own is hardly new or unique to China, it’s been pretty much baked into the cake of the “Revolution” since the very first one— and has repeated itself across time and space everywhere, ever since. And that particular phenomenon has been blamed on the capitalists/imperialists since the days of the NEP. 
 

The simple fact is that Marxism, or rather the various genera of single party Marixsm-Leninism that have actually existed in the world, is incompatible with the idea of freedom of conscience or human self-determination. It’s simply not possible for it to tolerate dissent and it must become authoritarian, totalitarian, or die. It’s amazing how many otherwise intelligent people keep getting seduced by the idea that we just haven’t followed the recipe exactly right. 

Well unless we can dissolve the Communist Party in China our best path is to engage a Communist regime that is on the Bukharinst path, it's the one most likely to lead to economic liberty.

[Incredulity 11555]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

Well unless we can dissolve the Communist Party in China our best path is to engage a Communist regime that is on the Bukharinst path, it's the one most likely to lead to economic liberty.

I would add though we need to engage economically with them on sustainable terms.  The table stakes of, "all your IP belong to us" isn't that.

[Rip76 4914]

22 hours ago, GRHorn said:

Lol

 

You’d think they’d go ahead and take it down.

[F250 28691]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

I would add though we need to engage economically with them on sustainable terms.  The table stakes of, "all your IP belong to us" isn't that.

That's a different discussion not that I disagree.

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

37 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Self-identified Marxists eating their own is hardly new or unique to China, it’s been pretty much baked into the cake of the “Revolution” since the very first one— and has repeated itself across time and space everywhere, ever since. And that particular phenomenon has been blamed on the capitalists/imperialists since the days of the NEP. 
 

The simple fact is that Marxism, or rather the various genera of single party Marixsm-Leninism that have actually existed in the world, is incompatible with the idea of freedom of conscience or human self-determination. It’s simply not possible for it to tolerate dissent and it must become authoritarian, totalitarian, or die. It’s amazing how many otherwise intelligent people keep getting seduced by the idea that we just haven’t followed the recipe exactly right. 

One of the better professors I had in higher ed covered a class in the 'isms' both from a political and an economic frame of reference. It was useful to compare and contrast the utopia (I don't know if that's the correct term, it's been awhile) with what was going on worldwide during the time. He's retired now, but I'd love to sit through that class now and listen to his comments in the present. He was very talented at engaging students to consider how power in any 'ism' works over time.

Our own bias, however, is our hubris in thinking our  'ism' has few, if any, frailties.

[956 Worldwide 34444]

2 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

One of the better professors I had in higher ed covered a class in the 'isms' both from a political and an economic frame of reference. It was useful to compare and contrast the utopia (I don't know if that's the correct term, it's been awhile) with what was going on worldwide during the time. He's retired now, but I'd love to sit through that class now and listen to his comments in the present. He was very talented at engaging students to consider how power in any 'ism' works over time.

Our own bias, however, is our hubris in thinking our  'ism' has few, if any, frailties.

I am deeply skeptical of all utopian projects. I’ll say this— theocratic utopian projects counting on divine reward from an unseen supreme deity are orders of magnitude more rational than any that count on us assholes to get it together in our own. The one is somewhat unfalsifiable, but anyone who  has done a middle school group project should be disabused of the notion that humans are capable of approaching perfection on our own. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I am deeply skeptical of all utopian projects. I’ll say this— theocratic utopian projects counting on divine reward from an unseen supreme deity are orders of magnitude more rational than any that count on us assholes to get it together in our own. The one is somewhat unfalsifiable, but anyone who  has done a middle school group project should be disabused of the notion that humans are capable of approaching perfection on our own. 

As was the professor a skeptic as well. But by dovetailing it with history and current events, it was a very useful exercise in the lies all humans tell themselves as they strive for that perfection. We're a messy lot, and Shakespeare had us well plumbed before Smith, Marx, Comte, et al were even a twinkle in their pater familias' eyes.

[Nivek 16860]

Western Commies, LOL. Damn, they’re the worst. Rarely in the course of human events has there been an idea that has been so rigorously tested time and again across time and space and with different nuances and each time it is just a complete dog’s breakfast. Just failure so comically epic and obvious that it would be almost funny without the secret police and labor camps. All you have to do to see it in many cases is literally move yourself down the road a piece, observe that everything in your new locale is shit, that everything was fine a few miles away, and reflect on who was in charge until recently.
Anyway, I can kind of see the hard core nostalgists who lived it (“at least my family was large and in charge”) but the Western dilettantes are really terrible. And it’s always an endless stream of deflectionabout how it would all work but America, or how no one really tried hard enough, or how the one key insight I’VE gleaned wasn’t applied, or dumbest of all, the Tankies who will bend your ear about how those people getting squished by armor in Budapest were the REAL oppressors. 
 
They’re as bad as Objectivists. Worse, even, because Objectivists never got beyond the mental masturbation phase and don’t have a mountain of actual empirical evidence, refugees, and corpses to explain away by blaming corporate media.

Says the believer in trickle down economics.

[tx 3 putt 76396]

Cuban Americans are ready to go in and buy up the island 

[F250 28691]

9 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Cuban Americans are ready to go in and buy up the island 

Buy or seek reparations?

 

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

Crazy that the new Florida anti protest laws don’t apply to the Cuban protesters. Also: 

 

 

[tx 3 putt 76396]

4 hours ago, F250 said:

Buy or seek reparations?

 

buy. They’ve been planning for the fall of that govt for sometime