Boo fucking hoo Ashli Babbitt

[Brisketexan 104537]

If someone breaks into your house then you should definitely wait until you determine whether they’re armed or not before you shoot them.
Dumbass.
 

Oh, it’s even better. If someone breaks into your house while yelling that they intend to “hang [the occupant],” you should definitely relax, and just try to have a nice conversation with them.

Breach a last-line of defense while being warned not to AND as part of a group yelling your intent to murder the people on the other side, several of whom are in the presidential line of succession? You’re lucky they didn’t have a belt-fed .50 cal on the other side.

Shit, as the events were happening, and it was revealed that groups that had already brutally attacked and overcome cops resisting their entry were steaming towards members of Congress, I remember turning to my wife and asking “why the fuck aren’t that shooting them?” Because, you know, that’s what any sane person would do to a mob who has violently overcome security to enter a structure with the repeatedly chanted intent to murder the occupants. Trumpkins, BLM protesters, it doesn’t matter. 1) Violently overcome security to breach the building, while 2) declaring your intent to murder the occupants….yeah, you should be shot.

And I’m NO fan of police use of force.

[Chuckie Finster 22598]

I will have a hard time celebrating the death of most anyone, with a few exceptions.  I'm also more than a bit uneasy with most law-enforcement imposed deaths.
But the symbolism attached to someone's death is another matter, entirely.  Martyrdom for Ashli Babbitt is ridiculous, beyond stupid.

It’s not even that. None of these morons actually give a shit about unarmed victims. They just think they’ve got the libs in a catch-22 so they’re hammering that talking point.

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, it’s even better. If someone breaks into your house while yelling that they intend to “hang [the occupant],” you should definitely relax, and just try to have a nice conversation with them.

Breach a last-line of defense while being warned not to AND as part of a group yelling your intent to murder the people on the other side, several of whom are in the presidential line of succession? You’re lucky they didn’t have a belt-fed .50 cal on the other side.

Shit, as the events were happening, and it was revealed that groups that had already brutally attacked and overcome cops resisting their entry were steaming towards members of Congress, I remember turning to my wife and asking “why the fuck aren’t that shooting them?” Because, you know, that’s what any sane person would do to a mob who has violently overcome security to enter a structure with the repeatedly chanted intent to murder the occupants. Trumpkins, BLM protesters, it doesn’t matter. 1) Violently overcome security to breach the building, while 2) declaring your intent to murder the occupants….yeah, you should be shot.

And I’m NO fan of police use of force.

It’s like they’re tourists and you’re just an accidental Bed and Breakfast. After they break your window and are crawling through it, you should ask them if they want coffee, tea, or milk. 

[aggie08 21414]

35 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It’s not even that. None of these morons actually give a shit about unarmed victims. They just think they’ve got the libs in a catch-22 so they’re hammering that talking point.

Yup. Not a single one of them actually gives a shit about Babbitt. All it is is a "Oh, so now you're okay with killing unarmed people?" gotcha point.

Because, you know, kneeling on a dude in handcuffs for 7 minutes is exactly the same as shooting someone beaching a guarded position inside the United States Capitol.

[WhatTheBuck 28703]

5 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Yup. Not a single one of them actually gives a shit about Babbitt. All it is is a "Oh, so now you're okay with killing unarmed people?" gotcha point.

Because, you know, kneeling on a dude in handcuffs for 7 minutes is exactly the same as shooting someone beaching a guarded position inside the United States Capitol.

But the real problem is some vandalism committed during mostly peaceful protests in the U.S. and around the world after the murder of George Floyd. But they’re not racists. They’re just not bothered by the murder of an unarmed black man by a white cop for the crime of resisting arrest, nor the attempted overthrow of American constitutional democracy by a crowd so white that even the “Blacks For Trump” sign was held by a white guy. Maybe the fact that they were ready to murder Mike Pence, possibly the whitest guy in American politics, in order to keep Trump the sociopath in power helps their argument. I don’t know. But they’re traitors and terrorists no matter how you slice it and should be treated accordingly. 

[lmao 178]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I will have a hard time celebrating the death of most anyone, with a few exceptions.  I'm also more than a bit uneasy with most law-enforcement imposed deaths.

But the symbolism attached to someone's death is another matter, entirely.  Martyrdom for Ashli Babbitt is ridiculous, beyond stupid.

The circle jerk around this woman's death is bizarre to me. Reminiscent of MAGA gun nuts who fantasize about shooting intruders, protestors, etc. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

She got what was coming and had to die, but why we are so gleeful over this rather than pursuing the actual ringleaders of this fiasco with white-hot fury is depressing as hell. We'd rather cluck over the death of a fellow citizen that hound the bastards who made her that way to prison cells and gallows. 

[atomheartbevo 89396]

4 hours ago, lmao said:

Her politics were most likely abhorrent to me but I just can't support police shooting unarmed people.

We've been over this a million times. They didn't know she was unarmed, they were outnumbered and other law enforcement had lost complete control (and situational awareness) of the surrounding area, and she was going into an clearly barricaded area that contained people who were directly in the Presidential line of succession.

And there were multiple people pointing guns at her.

This is no different than if you broke through some barricades and got really close to the President.  Your shit is getting fucked up.  If they think they can safely take you down, they will.  If there are 100 other screaming lunatics behind you, your ass is getting shot.

If you want to be angry, be angry at those around her who surely saw her mental illness and didn't do more.  I've yet to meet any qanon true believers who weren't mentally ill.

[softlynow 1783]

33 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

She got what was coming and had to die, but why we are so gleeful over this rather than pursuing the actual ringleaders of this fiasco with white-hot fury is depressing as hell. We'd rather cluck over the death of a fellow citizen that hound the bastards who made her that way to prison cells and gallows. 

This is nonsensical bullshit. Her name and story would’ve faded to mere footnote if not for the martyr treatment by the refuse that live among us. The folks here deriding that treatment and her evil acts are also in favor of stringing up the ringleaders. We aren’t lacking piano wire. What we lack is the political will to put treasonous fellow-travelers in their place. 

[UDontKnow 10439]

17 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

We've been over this a million times. They didn't know she was unarmed, they were outnumbered and other law enforcement had lost complete control (and situational awareness) of the surrounding area, and she was going into an clearly barricaded area that contained people who were directly in the Presidential line of succession.

And there were multiple people pointing guns at her.

This is no different than if you broke through some barricades and got really close to the President.  Your shit is getting fucked up.  If they think they can safely take you down, they will.  If there are 100 other screaming lunatics behind you, your ass is getting shot.

If you want to be angry, be angry at those around her who surely saw her mental illness and didn't do more.  I've yet to meet any qanon true believers who weren't mentally ill.

I get what you're saying, but I don't like it. These insurrectionists were able to think well enough to organize and coordinate their actions on 01/06. Unless they had some kind of pre-existing intellectual developmental disability (IDD) prior to 01/06, they should all be tried as competent individuals. America didn't give the mental health defense to Islamic terrorists, so why should white supremacist terrorists get the same benefit?

[lmao 178]

43 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

She got what was coming and had to die, but why we are so gleeful over this rather than pursuing the actual ringleaders of this fiasco with white-hot fury is depressing as hell. We'd rather cluck over the death of a fellow citizen that hound the bastards who made her that way to prison cells and gallows. 

Tbf I haven't kept up with it, I thought the Feds have arrested a lot of these people w/the help of social media.

[Gatorubet 30083]

Her politics were most likely abhorrent to me but I just can't support police shooting unarmed people.

User name checks out

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

14 minutes ago, softlynow said:

This is nonsensical bullshit. Her name and story would’ve faded to mere footnote if not for the martyr treatment by the refuse that live among us. The folks here deriding that treatment and her evil acts are also in favor of stringing up the ringleaders. We aren’t lacking piano wire. What we lack is the political will to put treasonous fellow-travelers in their place. 

The martyr treatment is profoundly stupid and/or possibly deranged, but we have to cut off the head of this fucking snake -- the politicians who are making a martyr of her for their own ends.  

Edited August 1, 2021 by MaybeACoordinator

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

And there were multiple people pointing guns at her.

 

And it was noted by the people who were hitting the glass with bats and helmets that there was (a) gun. The man in the Proud Boy polo who had been banging his helmet on the glass at the front sure left in a hurry instead of aiding her. That the police had little instruction was intentional--you can hear the cajoling by the insurrectionists--go on home, we don't want to hurt you. Which, to my mind, does imply intent to harm someone if they are obstructed. So, no dice, Ashli--you are not a martyr, you were used as a means to an end and those involved in the lie must be held accountable.

[Bama Chick 28596]

But at this point the republican leaders aren’t actually doing the leading.

They’re taking their talking points from their nutty base.

The dumbass elected republicans naively assumed their base actually had a line drawn at insurrection.

McCarthy, McConnell, and a bunch of others were singing from the same hymnal as sane people.

Then they found out their base didn’t care so much about democracy or violent overthrow of elected officials.

So they jumped on board the crazy train.

That’s the problem. The lunatics are running the asylum in one of our political parties.

I don’t know what the solution is but let’s say we hold the McCarthys and the Brooks and the Jordans responsible and they’re removed from office.

Guess what happens next???

Their gerrymandered districts replace them with even bigger fruitcake qanon nutchuckers.

Until 40% of this country unfucks their brains, their leaders don’t matter. They’re all interchangeable ambitions fascists.

[RDCanecutter 26246]

Hope the little shits that broke the windows but failed to follow her through get some steel-doors-and-concrete prison time.

[Underdog 28443]

50 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

The martyr treatment is profoundly stupid and/or possibly deranged, but we have to cut off the head of this fucking snake -- the politicians who are making a martyr of her for their own ends.  

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

6 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Seriously, that guy should be in ADX already.

[atomheartbevo 89396]

41 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

But at this point the republican leaders aren’t actually doing the leading.

They’re taking their talking points from their nutty base.

The dumbass elected republicans naively assumed their base actually had a line drawn at insurrection.

McCarthy, McConnell, and a bunch of others were singing from the same hymnal as sane people.

Then they found out their base didn’t care so much about democracy or violent overthrow of elected officials.

So they jumped on board the crazy train.

That’s the problem. The lunatics are running the asylum in one of our political parties.

I don’t know what the solution is but let’s say we hold the McCarthys and the Brooks and the Jordans responsible and they’re removed from office.

Guess what happens next???

Their gerrymandered districts replace them with even bigger fruitcake qanon nutchuckers.

Until 40% of this country unfucks their brains, their leaders don’t matter. They’re all interchangeable ambitions fascists.

[washparkhorn 9934]

30 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Seriously, that guy should be in ADX already.

USP Terre Haute is where male death row inmates reside for the federal system. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

USP Terre Haute is where male death row inmates reside for the federal system. 

I'd rather him have a good 70 years of solitary tick tock if you we can't execute him on national TV. 

[washparkhorn 9934]

12 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I'd rather him have a good 70 years of solitary tick tock if you we can't execute him on national TV. 

Great point. Let him rot with the unibomber. 

[Gatorubet 30083]

Until 40% of this country unfucks their brains, their leaders don’t matter. They’re all interchangeable ambitions fascists.

[Guest Lobo]

Only 35% of U.S. adults voted for Trump, not 40%.  We're not as screwed as people think.  74 outta 210mm.  

However, about half that number is "team/party over everything" but is not actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  The other half is "Trump of God Himself" and is actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  That's who worries me.  It's the MAGA/Qanon/covid denier/Trump is a living deity.  I'd put them around 30-40mm people.  That's who keeps me up at night.  I worry about what those people will do once Trump dies and they have nothing left to live for.  I'm guessing we're less than 3 years away from America's first suicide vest being marketed on the mypillow network.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

7 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Only 35% of U.S. adults voted for Trump, not 40%.  We're not as screwed as people think.  74 outta 210mm.  

However, about half that number is "team/party over everything" but is not actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  The other half is "Trump of God Himself" and is actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  That's who worries me.  It's the MAGA/Qanon/covid denier/Trump is a living deity.  I'd put them around 30-40mm people.  That's who keeps me up at night.  I worry about what those people will do once Trump dies and they have nothing left to live for.  I'm guessing we're less than 3 years away from America's first suicide vest being marketed on the mypillow network.  

It doesn't help to set one's mind at ease when one compares those numbers to those of of ISIS. Vanilla ISIS  dwarfs their terrorist brethren by a lot.

[Willfully Horn 7913]

“There’s a lot of Eagle Scouts out there.”

[RDCanecutter 26246]

12 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Only 35% of U.S. adults voted for Trump, not 40%.  We're not as screwed as people think.  74 outta 210mm.  

However, about half that number is "team/party over everything" but is not actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  The other half is "Trump of God Himself" and is actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  That's who worries me.  It's the MAGA/Qanon/covid denier/Trump is a living deity.  I'd put them around 30-40mm people.  That's who keeps me up at night.  I worry about what those people will do once Trump dies and they have nothing left to live for.  I'm guessing we're less than 3 years away from America's first suicide vest being marketed on the mypillow network.  

One thing about the "There's gonna be another Civil War!" crowd, is, it wouldn't be brother against brother, it would be fat-ass dad and grandad against fat-ass emo children. Sure there'd be a few sleek young SS wannabees, but in many cases I bet these guys are on the health issue side of 40 and their own children don't want anything to do with them.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33831]

On 8/1/2021 at 1:05 PM, UDontKnow said:

I get what you're saying, but I don't like it. These insurrectionists were able to think well enough to organize and coordinate their actions on 01/06. Unless they had some kind of pre-existing intellectual developmental disability (IDD) prior to 01/06, they should all be tried as competent individuals. America didn't give the mental health defense to Islamic terrorists, so why should white supremacist terrorists get the same benefit?

I bolded your answer within your own question

[RomaVicta 29769]

On 7/30/2021 at 12:34 PM, Chewbacca said:

Yep.  You breach the barriers, the tear gas and rubber bullets come out.  You breach the building, you die.  That's what should have happened.

I've gone back and forth on this. I kept mumbling, "use your weapon. Use your weapon," as I watched in real time and then the more horrific stuff later.

There were stop points where the doors were barricaded with armed officers and agents aiming their pistols at the entrance. Sweet Ashli found out their intentions. So, there was a line of death at some point.

On the other hand, you have invaders roaming free all the way to Pelosi's (thank the GQP finally realizes that she's to blame for all of this.) office. Her staff was rightfully terrified as they huddled behind an unlocked door.

Lastly, a massive shootout on the Capitol lawn or at the Capitol doors might have indicated to the world that the movement was bigger than it was and the US government was in jeopardy of being overthrown. It may also have indeed caused escalation because we know there were vehicles with pipe bombs and military rifles nearby.

I don't find an easy answer to any of this. I would have not objected to shooting once the invaders started attacking the windows and doors.  I think barricades should have been formed to contain the invaders once inside, but I really don't know of the police's numbers, capabilities, or strategies.

Which, to me, brings up the bigger question: Where was the Army? Where was the Guard? The national government was under attack and the Army was held in check. In this circumstance, the Army is the real defender who should be questioned. They were summoned often and early.

The cops expected relief that came way too late. Their tactics likely reflect this belief. 

Just keep them beyond the barricades until the Guard arrives.

Okay, just keep them out of the building because surely the Guard will be here any minute.

Holy shit, the mob is inside! Where is the fucking Guard?

As I write this, I wonder if there a hidden strategy in the GQP blaming Pelosi as the defender of the House. She doesn't command the Guard. They benefit if the focus remains on the police.

There is plenty of evidence already that Trump acted to cripple the Guard response. There is where the treason lies. The treason strategy was to invade the Capitol and stymie response. The second part is the decisive one. Trump's criminal operation knew the police could not hold out for more than hours. His principle advisor is a general. 

Let's not get lost in the weeds. The larger treason likely took place in the Pentagon at the order of the President of the United States. Donald Trump was staging a coup thinking he could control the Army which he did for hours before generals did their duty despite Trump's clear wishes.

[washparkhorn 9934]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

There is plenty of evidence already that Trump acted to cripple the Guard response. There is where the treason lies. The treason strategy was to invade the Capitol and stymie response. The second part is the decisive one. Trump's criminal operation knew the police could not hold out for more than hours. His principle advisor is a general. 

Let's not get lost in the weeds. The larger treason likely took place in the Pentagon at the order of the President of the United States. Donald Trump was staging a coup thinking he could control the Army which he did for hours before generals did their duty despite Trump's clear wishes.

Agree; this is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion. 

[Guest Lobo]

7 months in, with a full investigation by the DoJ and the U.S. Congress and nobody has answered the very simple question, "Why was there a delay in National Guard response?"  

Everybody knows they weren't there.  Everybody knows they were delayed.  Nobody, even Democrats, have told the public, 'This is WHY they were late.' 

Even the Democrats are helping cover that part up.  

I'm starting to think the gameplan was to actually have a Congressman or Senator murdered or kidnapped.  Not Trump's plan, the guy couldn't plan a bottle of water.  But they could keep their in office beyond January 20th because of the chaos that would have ensued.  Nobody with actual power thought he could stay in office by legal protesting of the elections in a few states.  But he could probably do it with emergency powers/martial law/wartime powers.  

Because what most Trumpers still don't understand is what would have happened if a federal elected official got murdered or abducted on international television.  For the many weeks or months afterward, with no clear indication of who/what was carrying out the attempted overthrow, life as we know it in America would have come to a grinding halt.  It would have made the Covid-19 shutdown look like Graduation Day at Six Flags.  Our status as reserve currency would have been immediately called into question, the Treasury stops printing money, all foreign nations and sovereign wealth funds cease buying our treasuries, most large enterprise credit backed by foreign backs ceases, the majority of the 2nd-7th fleets of the U.S. Navy are sternly asked to move away from land and return home, most personnel on our 400 international military bases are ordered to return to the United States by their host nations leaving only essential maintenance crews, most nations implement travel bans to American citizens while the citizenship picture is cleared up, most ex-pats abroad have their financial and employment statuses frozen while the investigation unfolds, and with no foreign banks/individuals/governments buying our public equities---the entire market and economy go into a black hole which will take years to recover from.  Because of all that turmoil, Trump is thrust back into office while the triage is assessed.  You can tell a Trumper that you don't think it was a crime, or an insurrection, or an attempted coup.  Shit, tell them you agree with the outrage on display that day.  But just ask them to play devil's advocate, "Hey, I totally think this 6 January thing is overblown.  But what do you think would have happened to America if they accidentally killed a Senator or Pence or somebody like that in all the melee?"  See what they say, I'm genuinely curious.

It was a tourist trip gone wrong that would have effected my children's lives for a decade.  

[HenryJames 65884]

 

[Underdog 28443]

Send.  Them.  A.  Bill. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33831]

ah, so her family is shitty too. no wonder they made little attempt to stop or her or get her help. welp, she a dead terrorist now.

[Cousin Strawberry 1261]

20 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

ah, so her family is shitty too. no wonder they made little attempt to stop or her or get her help. welp, she a dead terrorist now.

Grade A shitbags.  How do you see a loved one behaving that way and not get her into rehab or help for whatever mental illness she was afflicted with? 

[Thrawn 538]

Fuck her and her whole family. As someone on here said recently:

 Dig her up, shoot her again!

I’m hoping someday that I get a chance to put that on a sign while counter protesting these assholes.
 

 

[Bullneck 18983]

 

[Bullneck 18983]

 

 

[Bullneck 18983]

 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19144]

18 minutes ago, Thrawn said:

As someone on here said recently:

 Dig her up, shoot her again!

That was some of my better work if I do say so myself.

[Fudge Nuggets 19144]

[TwiceHorn 31240]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

 

This will be an instance where qualified immunity will operate as intended.

And, even if it goes a little overboard, we'll all cheer qualified immunity.

[Underdog 28443]

1 hour ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

[Satchel 6908]

On 8/1/2021 at 12:45 PM, atomheartbevo said:

We've been over this a million times. They didn't know she was unarmed, they were outnumbered and other law enforcement had lost complete control (and situational awareness) of the surrounding area, and she was going into an clearly barricaded area that contained people who were directly in the Presidential line of succession.

And there were multiple people pointing guns at her.

This is no different than if you broke through some barricades and got really close to the President.  Your shit is getting fucked up.  If they think they can safely take you down, they will.  If there are 100 other screaming lunatics behind you, your ass is getting shot.

If you want to be angry, be angry at those around her who surely saw her mental illness and didn't do more.  I've yet to meet any qanon true believers who weren't mentally ill.

Babbitt was former military. If she were clothed in her right mind, she should have known her actions were putting in mortal danger.

[SKJ 1305]

2 hours ago, Satchel said:

Babbitt was former military. If she were clothed in her right mind, she should have known her actions were putting in mortal danger.

Like all the rest of the former military,  she probably thought she'd get a discount 

[GhostOfTomJoad 9306]

15 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

ah, so her family is shitty too. no wonder they made little attempt to stop or her or get her help. welp, she a dead terrorist now.

They realize they stand to make a pretty good amount of coin by exploiting the memory & image of their dead, dumbass daughter. How long before there are American flags with her face plastered on them being hawked at MAGA rallies?

[Underdog 28443]

14 hours ago, Bullneck said:

 

 

A bullet hole needs to be PS on her neck. 

[gmr548 16482]

Phenomenal that there are people on this Earth that want "justice" for Ashley Babbitt, but think George Floyd, Eric Garner, etc. are examples of law enforcement not doing anything wrong.

Let that sink in for a minute.

[gmr548 16482]

On 8/2/2021 at 1:51 PM, Lobo said:

Only 35% of U.S. adults voted for Trump, not 40%.  We're not as screwed as people think.  74 outta 210mm.  

However, about half that number is "team/party over everything" but is not actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  The other half is "Trump of God Himself" and is actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  That's who worries me.  It's the MAGA/Qanon/covid denier/Trump is a living deity.  I'd put them around 30-40mm people.  That's who keeps me up at night.  I worry about what those people will do once Trump dies and they have nothing left to live for.  I'm guessing we're less than 3 years away from America's first suicide vest being marketed on the mypillow network.  

Disagree. 1.) 81 million voted for Biden, so the majority of eligible American adults either voted for Trump or didn't see voting against him as worth their time. 2.) Team/party over everything is just as destructive to the "fabric of the Republic" as Cult 45. Honestly, they're often indistinguishable.

This country is teetering on failed state status.

[Sawbonz 27392]

On 8/2/2021 at 1:51 PM, Lobo said:

Only 35% of U.S. adults voted for Trump, not 40%.  We're not as screwed as people think.  74 outta 210mm.  

However, about half that number is "team/party over everything" but is not actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  The other half is "Trump of God Himself" and is actively working to destroy the fabric of the Republic.  That's who worries me.  It's the MAGA/Qanon/covid denier/Trump is a living deity.  I'd put them around 30-40mm people.  That's who keeps me up at night.  I worry about what those people will do once Trump dies and they have nothing left to live for.  I'm guessing we're less than 3 years away from America's first suicide vest being marketed on the mypillow network.  

probably 15% of the total population would accurately be described as hard-core right wing. That number probably hasn’t changed much over the years. Trumps election however allowed that segment to start steering the GOP ship. Ships take a long time to turn. I know a lot on this board don’t believe moderates exist anymore, but they absolutely do. They are what allowed Biden to defeat Trump and their abandonment of the Republican party will likely result in a hold for the Dems in the house and a gain in the Senate in the midterms, which rarely happens these days. I haven’t seen data from any state republican party that shows an increase in membership. The 20 year data for the Republican party numbers show a trend toward extinction.  

 

And for those on the board who think 15% is a big enough number to dissolve the constitution and install an autocrat, most of the moderates I know are big second amendment fans, just like the right wingers. And there are a whole lot more of us than them